I think you make some valid points in your OP Kingdom, but I don't really think the UI is the root of most of the problems you mention. I think the UI is basically a symptom of the problems you talk about.
For example...
Combat - You say that the interface is crowded beacuse you have a bunch of skills that do basically the same thing is an issue. Well the root problem here isn't the interface, the problem is that you have a bunch of skills that do the same thing . So you're really talking about skill inflation.
Same thing with players watching the skill cooldowns...is the problem here the interface, or is it the way skill cooldowns work? The only reason the players are staring at the interface is because there is this wonky skill cooldown system. Also, I actually like the damage numbers, it lets me know how well my abilities are performing...just a matter of taste here.
Targeting - The first problem you bring up is essentially tab, or point and click (who does that?) targeting. Once again, the interface isn't the root of the problem. The problem is that the game forces you to select a target before using an ability. Why not just swing your sword and hit what's in front of you? I realize this is considered "twitch" gameplay, but I actually prefer it.
Addons - Yeah this is definitely something with the interface, but I really like it when developers allow others to improve the interface.
Quest log - You mention somehow condensing the quest log, that's definitely an interface thing, but then you talk about quest design in general. For example, redundant side quests, extremely linear questing etc. This has nothing to do with the interface. This is all quest design.
So basically...I think it's easy to "blame" the interface for a game's problems because you experience the game through the interface. It's like blaming your sight for seeing something horrible (damn my eyes!).
But you really have to look a little deeper into why exactly whatever problem you bring up exists. Many problems can result in "interface symptoms," but that doesn't mean the problem is with the interface.
I can't speak for everyone, but the first time I see an NPC with a quest marker above his head, I groan. If the only way to progress is checking off quests in a quest tracker, I'm outta there. I don't mind doing quests like that once in awhile, but right now I am so sick of it. Almost every RPG game after WoW, even the single player ones, has the same sort of crap. I know RPGs are based upon this principle, but when it becomes blatantly obvious I am just doing quests to get XP and loot, it gets really old. I can still play games like Borderlands and Fallout 3, that do have quest trackers, but for some reason, I don't feel as compelled or obligated to accomplish all of them. They seem more like a suggestion than a rigid path. Again, I don't mind quests in RPGs, but when it is the main focus of the game, that is dull and boring to me.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
“It's unwise to pay too much, but it's worse to pay too little. When you pay too much, you lose a little money - that's all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do. The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot - it can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that you will have enough to pay for something better.”
I would argue it's the dull gameplay where your playing like a robot, doing fetch quests until endgame to get any fun at which point there's no progression unless you put in a big amount of hours. I do like your hotkey argument, many people in wow used to have their entire screen just filled with mods because the hotkeys is all they look at when fighting instead of the actual fight.
I think this sums it up nicely: A lack of imagination somewhere?
I like the idea of a game that you play over a period of time and those small gaming sessions daily (in my case) build on each other. Each one is enjoyable but in addition there is constant projective growth in your gameplay experience towards something.
I've come to the conclusion that mmorpgs are designed to be fun and provide many hours of gameplay. I've decided that I'll reduce the fun per gaming session if that means the many hours of gameplay lead to something I feel worthwhile has been achieved: Sandbox mmos are the area I think this might be more possible. I'm almost done with Themepark MMOs but will have to see how GW2 and Firefall pans out, but I think long-term complexity is the key that is missing re the answer to the title of this thread?
Interfaces are essential to translate our intent into gameplay. Too many interfaces are badly designed. I'd agree that this is a problem, but I don't think it is the complete cause.
Here are three broad categories that I think also contribute to player boredom.
World Interaction. Fundamentally, MMOs offer nothing except fight, loot and level. There is a dearth of actions that interact with the game world other than these broad categories. The lack of variety in manipulating the world limits how the player can experience the world. There's no reward (in-game) for being generous, worshiping one of the game deities, or conforming with the game's lore. These actions don't give the character a specific persistent personality. Give away too much money (to twinks, for instance) and the merchants start expecting you to overpay for everything.
Player Decisions. Another factor contributing to player boredom is the lack of choice. Some games allow you to build a character via limited skills. But there will always be a min-max approach that maximizes each class. Games without classes tend toward the tank-mage syndrome, where everyone tries to do everything. There is little specialization in how the character progresses. Part of this problem is the lack of balance between skill / spell abilities. Quests can be repeated ad nauseum. Give us quests that have multiple, mutually exclusive choices, and prevent a single character for making all choices. Make the player's in-game decisions, both in character development and in quests. mean something.
Lack of Suspense. Fighting in games uses a completely different mindset than in real life. There is no cost for the danger and no reprecussions for failure. Bring back death penalties, maybe not in the traditional sense, and make death mean something besides a 20-30 second inconvenience. Remove heath bars on unfriendly mobs, so that the players will not know when / if to run. Make flight a valid option for every combat and have cowardice have repercussions. If you have pets, let them have morale and run away in difficult situations.
There's probably dozens more factors that contribute to the boredom players experience while playing MMOs. These are three that I think are fundamental.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Interfaces are essential to translate our intent into gameplay. Too many interfaces are badly designed. I'd agree that this is a problem, but I don't think it is the complete cause.
Here are three broad categories that I think also contribute to player boredom.
World Interaction. Fundamentally, MMOs offer nothing except fight, loot and level. There is a dearth of actions that interact with the game world other than these broad categories. The lack of variety in manipulating the world limits how the player can experience the world. There's no reward (in-game) for being generous, worshiping one of the game deities, or conforming with the game's lore. These actions don't give the character a specific persistent personality. Give away too much money (to twinks, for instance) and the merchants start expecting you to overpay for everything.
Player Decisions. Another factor contributing to player boredom is the lack of choice. Some games allow you to build a character via limited skills. But there will always be a min-max approach that maximizes each class. Games without classes tend toward the tank-mage syndrome, where everyone tries to do everything. There is little specialization in how the character progresses. Part of this problem is the lack of balance between skill / spell abilities. Quests can be repeated ad nauseum. Give us quests that have multiple, mutually exclusive choices, and prevent a single character for making all choices. Make the player's in-game decisions, both in character development and in quests. mean something.
Lack of Suspense. Fighting in games uses a completely different mindset than in real life. There is no cost for the danger and no reprecussions for failure. Bring back death penalties, maybe not in the traditional sense, and make death mean something besides a 20-30 second inconvenience. Remove heath bars on unfriendly mobs, so that the players will not know when / if to run. Make flight a valid option for every combat and have cowardice have repercussions. If you have pets, let them have morale and run away in difficult situations.
There's probably dozens more factors that contribute to the boredom players experience while playing MMOs. These are three that I think are fundamental.
While the above outlines some of the issues MMOs have it is also something that can not be easily fixed.
In a world where you are suppose to be with thousands of other players, the issues above can not be fixed.
What happens if one player's decision affects 99% of other players?
There are ways to get around this, like EVE.
However, the playerbase in EVE showcases that the issues above isn't what they will actually do.
86% of EVE players do not live in 0.0 where choices / interactions have meaning.
Gdemami - Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Its quite easy tbh. MMOs suck royal £$%" because it gained a mass market.
SWTOR is a prime example. It takes every ounce of me not to go on the SWTOR forum just to point and laugh at those who feel that a game built around green/blue/purple items, rock paper scissors class systems, instances and quest hubs, will ever feel like anything other that exactly what it is. The only thing that game could offer is an MMO with a gripping an immersive story line...a notion which is totally redundant in a persistant MMO world as a 'hook'. Unless bioware have a sweatshop of writers to continue your stories then I'm afraid you're going to be playing an expensive KOTOR and quitting shortly after. Agree or disagree, but SWTOR is going to be a success to rival WoW standards, and its going to be the last nail in the coffin to any prospects of a mainstream company producing an alternative product.
ITS NOT A BAD SYSTEM...But my most looked forward to MMOs of the last decade have felt like the same game (Lotro, Warhammer etc). Every single alternative take on an mmo has come from a company to lacking in finances and technical ability/freedom to achieve their goals.
I'm not even going to get into the sandbox debate, I save that for the posters of this forum to make fools of themselves trying to discuss the notion, but all I want is something different, and I don't feel like we're going to get it.
Its quite easy tbh. MMOs suck royal £$%" because it gained a mass market.
SWTOR is a prime example. It takes every ounce of me not to go on the SWTOR forum just to point and laugh at those who feel that a game built around green/blue/purple items, rock paper scissors class systems, instances and quest hubs, will ever feel like anything other that exactly what it is. The only thing that game could offer is an MMO with a gripping an immersive story line...a notion which is totally redundant in a persistant MMO world as a 'hook'. Unless bioware have a sweatshop of writers to continue your stories then I'm afraid you're going to be playing an expensive KOTOR and quitting shortly after. Agree or disagree, but SWTOR is going to be a success to rival WoW standards, and its going to be the last nail in the coffin to any prospects of a mainstream company producing an alternative product.
ITS NOT A BAD SYSTEM...But my most looked forward to MMOs of the last decade have felt like the same game (Lotro, Warhammer etc). Every single alternative take on an mmo has come from a company to lacking in finances and technical ability/freedom to achieve their goals.
I'm not even going to get into the sandbox debate, I save that for the posters of this forum to make fools of themselves trying to discuss the notion, but all I want is something different, and I don't feel like we're going to get it.
It was my understanding the majority of people who have taken up an issue with WoW say how WoW started catoring to the casual players and making it kiddie-proof. In short, they made things to easy. And the accomplishments mainstreamed. Oh, you got a shiny purple and it took you 2 weeks to get it after hitting max level? Oh yea, you can just do a heroic run and get 2 purples per run.
Don't even get me started on how easy the dungeons/heroics/raids are. Those have been going downhill since BC. All because of what they took from Naxx. They may have made Naxx just a tad bit hard, but they SUPER OVER GROSSLY corrected themselves with each new expansion and it's showing, badly.
Its quite easy tbh. MMOs suck royal £$%" because it gained a mass market.
SWTOR is a prime example. It takes every ounce of me not to go on the SWTOR forum just to point and laugh at those who feel that a game built around green/blue/purple items, rock paper scissors class systems, instances and quest hubs, will ever feel like anything other that exactly what it is. The only thing that game could offer is an MMO with a gripping an immersive story line...a notion which is totally redundant in a persistant MMO world as a 'hook'. Unless bioware have a sweatshop of writers to continue your stories then I'm afraid you're going to be playing an expensive KOTOR and quitting shortly after. Agree or disagree, but SWTOR is going to be a success to rival WoW standards, and its going to be the last nail in the coffin to any prospects of a mainstream company producing an alternative product.
ITS NOT A BAD SYSTEM...But my most looked forward to MMOs of the last decade have felt like the same game (Lotro, Warhammer etc). Every single alternative take on an mmo has come from a company to lacking in finances and technical ability/freedom to achieve their goals.
I'm not even going to get into the sandbox debate, I save that for the posters of this forum to make fools of themselves trying to discuss the notion, but all I want is something different, and I don't feel like we're going to get it.
It was my understanding the majority of people who have taken up an issue with WoW say how WoW started catoring to the casual players and making it kiddie-proof. In short, they made things to easy. And the accomplishments mainstreamed. Oh, you got a shiny purple and it took you 2 weeks to get it after hitting max level? Oh yea, you can just do a heroic run and get 2 purples per run.
Don't even get me started on how easy the dungeons/heroics/raids are. Those have been going downhill since BC. All because of what they took from Naxx. They may have made Naxx just a tad bit hard, but they SUPER OVER GROSSLY corrected themselves with each new expansion and it's showing, badly.
Dude who cares. Wow is a great game. Its easier than ever but its catering well to its playerbase. We only hate wow because the market is at a point where I can't play a game unless its atleast 10 years old, and these servers aren't going to stay live forever.
THe only dull and boring part of most mmos to me is a group of the people, A lot of the major hubs in games i just turn off of chat or simply ignore most of the chat that takes place.. Its nothing more than a chat room for the most annoying people online. 30 year olds acting like they are 10, whiners, trolls, hate speech etc etc. Thankfully i tend to find the fun and imagitive people who play as i go along,
Comments
I think you make some valid points in your OP Kingdom, but I don't really think the UI is the root of most of the problems you mention. I think the UI is basically a symptom of the problems you talk about.
For example...
Combat - You say that the interface is crowded beacuse you have a bunch of skills that do basically the same thing is an issue. Well the root problem here isn't the interface, the problem is that you have a bunch of skills that do the same thing
. So you're really talking about skill inflation.
Same thing with players watching the skill cooldowns...is the problem here the interface, or is it the way skill cooldowns work? The only reason the players are staring at the interface is because there is this wonky skill cooldown system. Also, I actually like the damage numbers, it lets me know how well my abilities are performing...just a matter of taste here.
Targeting - The first problem you bring up is essentially tab, or point and click (who does that?) targeting. Once again, the interface isn't the root of the problem. The problem is that the game forces you to select a target before using an ability. Why not just swing your sword and hit what's in front of you? I realize this is considered "twitch" gameplay, but I actually prefer it.
Addons - Yeah this is definitely something with the interface, but I really like it when developers allow others to improve the interface.
Quest log - You mention somehow condensing the quest log, that's definitely an interface thing, but then you talk about quest design in general. For example, redundant side quests, extremely linear questing etc. This has nothing to do with the interface. This is all quest design.
So basically...I think it's easy to "blame" the interface for a game's problems because you experience the game through the interface. It's like blaming your sight for seeing something horrible (damn my eyes!).
But you really have to look a little deeper into why exactly whatever problem you bring up exists. Many problems can result in "interface symptoms," but that doesn't mean the problem is with the interface.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
I can't speak for everyone, but the first time I see an NPC with a quest marker above his head, I groan. If the only way to progress is checking off quests in a quest tracker, I'm outta there. I don't mind doing quests like that once in awhile, but right now I am so sick of it. Almost every RPG game after WoW, even the single player ones, has the same sort of crap. I know RPGs are based upon this principle, but when it becomes blatantly obvious I am just doing quests to get XP and loot, it gets really old. I can still play games like Borderlands and Fallout 3, that do have quest trackers, but for some reason, I don't feel as compelled or obligated to accomplish all of them. They seem more like a suggestion than a rigid path. Again, I don't mind quests in RPGs, but when it is the main focus of the game, that is dull and boring to me.
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.
Solo play
--John Ruskin
90% of MMOG gameplay is combat oriented, and MMOGs tend to have pretty awful combat systems.
I think this sums it up nicely: A lack of imagination somewhere?
I like the idea of a game that you play over a period of time and those small gaming sessions daily (in my case) build on each other. Each one is enjoyable but in addition there is constant projective growth in your gameplay experience towards something.
I've come to the conclusion that mmorpgs are designed to be fun and provide many hours of gameplay. I've decided that I'll reduce the fun per gaming session if that means the many hours of gameplay lead to something I feel worthwhile has been achieved: Sandbox mmos are the area I think this might be more possible. I'm almost done with Themepark MMOs but will have to see how GW2 and Firefall pans out, but I think long-term complexity is the key that is missing re the answer to the title of this thread?
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
Imho it's quite simple.
The polished MMORPGs (Rift, the Star Wars thingy, Aion) are boring and offer little new stuff.
The MMORPGs that offer new stuff have always a very bumpy start and won't recover from that.
Let's play Fallen Earth (blind, 300 episodes)
Let's play Guild Wars 2 (blind, 45 episodes)
Interfaces are essential to translate our intent into gameplay. Too many interfaces are badly designed. I'd agree that this is a problem, but I don't think it is the complete cause.
Here are three broad categories that I think also contribute to player boredom.
World Interaction. Fundamentally, MMOs offer nothing except fight, loot and level. There is a dearth of actions that interact with the game world other than these broad categories. The lack of variety in manipulating the world limits how the player can experience the world. There's no reward (in-game) for being generous, worshiping one of the game deities, or conforming with the game's lore. These actions don't give the character a specific persistent personality. Give away too much money (to twinks, for instance) and the merchants start expecting you to overpay for everything.
Player Decisions. Another factor contributing to player boredom is the lack of choice. Some games allow you to build a character via limited skills. But there will always be a min-max approach that maximizes each class. Games without classes tend toward the tank-mage syndrome, where everyone tries to do everything. There is little specialization in how the character progresses. Part of this problem is the lack of balance between skill / spell abilities. Quests can be repeated ad nauseum. Give us quests that have multiple, mutually exclusive choices, and prevent a single character for making all choices. Make the player's in-game decisions, both in character development and in quests. mean something.
Lack of Suspense. Fighting in games uses a completely different mindset than in real life. There is no cost for the danger and no reprecussions for failure. Bring back death penalties, maybe not in the traditional sense, and make death mean something besides a 20-30 second inconvenience. Remove heath bars on unfriendly mobs, so that the players will not know when / if to run. Make flight a valid option for every combat and have cowardice have repercussions. If you have pets, let them have morale and run away in difficult situations.
There's probably dozens more factors that contribute to the boredom players experience while playing MMOs. These are three that I think are fundamental.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
While the above outlines some of the issues MMOs have it is also something that can not be easily fixed.
In a world where you are suppose to be with thousands of other players, the issues above can not be fixed.
What happens if one player's decision affects 99% of other players?
There are ways to get around this, like EVE.
However, the playerbase in EVE showcases that the issues above isn't what they will actually do.
86% of EVE players do not live in 0.0 where choices / interactions have meaning.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
Its quite easy tbh. MMOs suck royal £$%" because it gained a mass market.
SWTOR is a prime example. It takes every ounce of me not to go on the SWTOR forum just to point and laugh at those who feel that a game built around green/blue/purple items, rock paper scissors class systems, instances and quest hubs, will ever feel like anything other that exactly what it is. The only thing that game could offer is an MMO with a gripping an immersive story line...a notion which is totally redundant in a persistant MMO world as a 'hook'. Unless bioware have a sweatshop of writers to continue your stories then I'm afraid you're going to be playing an expensive KOTOR and quitting shortly after. Agree or disagree, but SWTOR is going to be a success to rival WoW standards, and its going to be the last nail in the coffin to any prospects of a mainstream company producing an alternative product.
ITS NOT A BAD SYSTEM...But my most looked forward to MMOs of the last decade have felt like the same game (Lotro, Warhammer etc). Every single alternative take on an mmo has come from a company to lacking in finances and technical ability/freedom to achieve their goals.
I'm not even going to get into the sandbox debate, I save that for the posters of this forum to make fools of themselves trying to discuss the notion, but all I want is something different, and I don't feel like we're going to get it.
It was my understanding the majority of people who have taken up an issue with WoW say how WoW started catoring to the casual players and making it kiddie-proof. In short, they made things to easy. And the accomplishments mainstreamed. Oh, you got a shiny purple and it took you 2 weeks to get it after hitting max level? Oh yea, you can just do a heroic run and get 2 purples per run.
Don't even get me started on how easy the dungeons/heroics/raids are. Those have been going downhill since BC. All because of what they took from Naxx. They may have made Naxx just a tad bit hard, but they SUPER OVER GROSSLY corrected themselves with each new expansion and it's showing, badly.
Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!
Dude who cares. Wow is a great game. Its easier than ever but its catering well to its playerbase. We only hate wow because the market is at a point where I can't play a game unless its atleast 10 years old, and these servers aren't going to stay live forever.
THe only dull and boring part of most mmos to me is a group of the people, A lot of the major hubs in games i just turn off of chat or simply ignore most of the chat that takes place.. Its nothing more than a chat room for the most annoying people online. 30 year olds acting like they are 10, whiners, trolls, hate speech etc etc. Thankfully i tend to find the fun and imagitive people who play as i go along,