MMOs take a lot of time and money to make. Therefor they are going to be formulaic because no one is going to invest millions of dollars into something that is too original or innovative and therefor a financial risk. GW2 looks like they are trying to do something innovative. I suppose they got enough working capital and have suffered enough boredom with the standard MMO mold to want to do something different. Time will tell.
What the gaming industry needs is more eccentric millionaires who are crazy enough to fly with something not because they want to be richer but because they just want to see somethign different, something better, some creative vision out there in the world.
-- 1) The PEOPLE- The community is going to be full of idiots and bad attitudes.... "real life" is full of this but online there is even less reason for people to behave themselves... they can get away with anything... there are no serious repercussions. --
Actually, the communities were pretty good until WoW. WoW was noted within it's first 3 months as having the worst community ever (now they are challenged by DFO (and possibly RIFT, if live is anything like the beta.)
Now we have /b/tards and goons everywhere, and people that think that spouting memes and elite-speak, being a douche, and trolling makes them cool.
-- Sandbox? Oh please. I played SWG from shortly after launch until a little while after the CU. SWG was full of bugs and exploits, but more importantly it was full of people who were interested in winning or achieving goals (like unlocking the force sensitive slot) instead of contributing to the game experience.
The people will ruin a sandbox every time if you let them in and give them a chance. I can't stress this enough.. people suck. --
While I agree that SWG was very buggy, I only really remember the Combat Medic exploits being really game breaking.
SWG was full of people that were interested in many different things. I was a Master Doctor/Master Rifleman. My suppliers for my buffs never changed their skills. Neither did a majority of my friends.
Yes, there were quite a few that were interested in the hologrind. It was no where even close to everyone, though. Most people picked a class and stuck with it.
The people who started the ruin of SOE are the same type of people that play WoW now. They wanted the Jedi, and SOE denied them for awhile, until they relented and put in the hologrind. That was the beginning of the end.
I would place a hefty wager that a majority of people that left after the NGE were specificallly not hologrinders.
MMOs don't "fail" very often. People on forums quit playing them and they think everyone else does too.
What sould you say the biggest successes in MMOs are other than WoW? UO? Maybe SWG? Maybe EQ? The classics right?
Well news flash. None of those had the numbers that Rift has. None of them had 1/3 the numbers that Aion has. They are not failures by any stretch of the word.
Keep in mind that you are not a new gamer. You've seen it all before - well guess what - new gamers haven't seen it yet and they love it. 500k subs is not a failure.
SWG had 300k subs in it's hayday. UO never even made it that high. It only takes a couple hundred thousand subs to make an awesome game experience with packed servers and active guilds; and if you're new to MMOs there are more choices out there than ever before. AAA themepark deviations (Rift, Aion), quality Indy sandboxes (EVE, Darkfall, Planet Calypso), innovative F2P titles (Vindictus, Atlantica)... there are some good games out there.
Well - Pre-WoW, the MMO market was a quite small market.
And we dont know the numbers. The companies arent forced to publish them. So we never have the numbers.
Also keep in mind that WoW has its big numbers because its a success in asia. But I would think that an asian account would have less profit than a european or american one.
New MMOs fail because they're trying to armwrestle the 600 lb gorilla.
They're trying to beat WoW by playing to its rules... trying to be like it. But the plain fact of the matter is WoW's better at it, has had ages to be fleshed out, and has been doing it for 7 years now.
The boys at Blizzard must have had years worth of laughter from watching the competition try to topple them at their own game and failing miserably.
WoW's dominance will fade eventually, but 7 years of absolute, total genre domination is hilarious. It just shows the competition is incompetent and never has been able to figure it out.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
The only ones that have failed are Tabula Rosa ( i think that is the correct spelling) and APB(which maybe not be a proper MMO). Please tell me one that has failed...........................
They may not have storming success like WoW but that does not mean they have failed. AoC, WAR, STOL, Rift, even Vangaurd all still running means they have not failed.
This genre is relatively new and is in constant change and will undergo all kinds of tranistional states before it reaches its peak which may take a few more many years from now due to the length of time each game exists for.
New MMOs fail because they're trying to armwrestle the 600 lb gorilla.
They're trying to beat WoW by playing to its rules... trying to be like it. But the plain fact of the matter is WoW's better at it, has had ages to be fleshed out, and has been doing it for 7 years now.
The boys at Blizzard must have had years worth of laughter from watching the competition try to topple them at their own game and failing miserably.
WoW's dominance will fade eventually, but 7 years of absolute, total genre domination is hilarious. It just shows the competition is incompetent and never has been able to figure it out.
I HATE WoW not because of it's success, but because it showed how many gullible people are willing to butcher the "depth" that the genre can hold for mere dollar signs.
WoW == lowest common denominator for people who like things given to them. I've actually tried WoW && WoW raiding. It's so simply basic, and thin-skilled that I couldn't even get into it whatsoever.
I won't even go into the simplistic cartoony wonderbread graphics -.,-
The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity: Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
I HATE WoW not because of it's success, but because it showed how many gullible people are willing to butcher the "depth" that the genre can hold for mere dollar signs.
I hold Ultima Online as the true pinnacle of the MMORPG genre - the best of the best, the only true sandbox and only true MMORPG to ever exist.
That being said, if I were to install UO and play on a "classic" shard with all the same rules and systems etc. as I played 10+ years ago, I'd probably last a few days before I got bored and quit.
Games have changed. Players expect more, they expect more content, they expect more systems, and they expect products to be released in a finished state.
In that sense, gamers have changed.
If anything, the OP is very right about that - gamers have changed and we are as much to blame as the development studios for the direction this genre has taken.
The OP is very wrong about all new MMO's failing - there are a whole host of successful games that are much loved and appreciated by their fans.
There are no monopolies in gaming, choice is a GOOD thing, there does not NEED to be "one game to rule them all" that is the one concept many, many people on these forums never seem to grasp.
Not everyone needs to like or dislike a particular game. So why defend or attack a specific title?
There is a LARGE difference between sharing our opinions and experiences about a certain title and attacking/defending a title.
One implies knowledge, education, and proper debate, while the other incites anger, an absense of logic, and unreasonable discourse.
True, there have been games with no "soul" whose only purpose has been to try and "cash in" on the success of WoW. That cannot be denied.
However to imply those kinds of titles are the norm rather then the exception is both ignorant and damaging to the industry as a whole.
WoW's dominance will fade eventually, but 7 years of absolute, total genre domination is hilarious. It just shows the competition is incompetent and never has been able to figure it out.
SOE dominated the mmo market for FIVE years with Everquest with their 500k subs before WOW came along
just because you are top dog does not mean you are best at mmos
SOE did have competiton preWOW
- even Microsoft cancelled their Mythica MMO because they didnt want to compete w Everquest
Boston Globe article from Feb 2004 (before wow existed)
Spurred by the success of EverQuest, lots of companies began launching persistent online role-playing games, without thinking through the demands of the market. "Too many products got created, to be used by too few customers," said Jeffrey Anderson, CEO of Westwood-based Turbine Entertainment Software, developer of another successful online game, Asheron's Call. "It's like we all decided we all wanted to create our own version of MTV."
Well - Pre-WoW, the MMO market was a quite small market.
And we dont know the numbers. The companies arent forced to publish them. So we never have the numbers.
Also keep in mind that WoW has its big numbers because its a success in asia. But I would think that an asian account would have less profit than a european or american one.
Vast majority of companies make fincancial reports public. Also, there are insiders who deal specifically in this type of information. Not to mention press when the games are doing well. You can google your favortie company, followed by finincial data or subscription data, and you would be surprised how transparent most of this stuff is. There are also websites like mmodata.net who cite their sources and rate how accurate their information is.
The info is out there for people who look - and it's a lot more credible than what some random guy on a forum says.
New mmos fail for one reason. There are way to many of them.
More than anything, I think that's the case. When I started EQ, really the only other MMO around was UO. Within couple years we had a few more - AC, DAOC, Shadowbane, and maybe one or two others. But there still wasn't a ton of selection. This meant that each game that was available was pretty unique, and there was more brand loyalty.
Nowadays, there are dozens of MMOs to chose from, and there are a lot of people who try every new MMO that comes out and don't stick with a single one for more than a few months. Developers, as such, I think, design games to attract a large initial subscriber base, and don't expect or work for having a large long term player base. A game like RIFT, for instance, while a pretty decent product in my opinion, there just isn't much there to hold the average player's attention longer than a couple months.
Have any MMOs since WoW actually grew in subscribers after the first few months? I can't think of any that may have. EQ1 was still growing up until shortly before WoW came out, as were a lot of the early MMOs. WoW depending on who you ask may have still been growing up until as recently as last year, and it's now fairly steady or possibly slowly losing subscribers.
If someone is entering the genre without playing an MMO before, most likely they are going to play what their friends are playing (which statistically is likely to be WoW), what has the biggest name (WoW again, soon to be TOR possibly), or just what is newest. This makes it hard for a MMO even six months old to attract new players.
New MMOs fail because they're trying to armwrestle the 600 lb gorilla.
They're trying to beat WoW by playing to its rules... trying to be like it. But the plain fact of the matter is WoW's better at it, has had ages to be fleshed out, and has been doing it for 7 years now.
The boys at Blizzard must have had years worth of laughter from watching the competition try to topple them at their own game and failing miserably.
WoW's dominance will fade eventually, but 7 years of absolute, total genre domination is hilarious. It just shows the competition is incompetent and never has been able to figure it out.
This.
Agree as well. Developers need to actually segment the market. Instead of trying to appeal to everyone who plays WoW by making a WoW clone, they should find out what a certain segment of MMORPG players really want and make a game that caters to them specifically.
If there is a significant percentage of WoW players that really prefer MMORPG-esque PvP, but they are playing WoW just because there's nothing better...then why not make a game that really caters to them? If you can satisfy their specific interest better than WoW can, then they're move likely to leave WoW permanently.
I think that Mythic tried to do this with WAR, but they kind of fell flat on their face by messing up RvR terribly.
Yep, time for another one of these threads. I haven't been active here on MMORPG.com for a long while, but there was a time when I was a very active member.
There are a number of reasons, and I'm going to cover all that come to my mind. First, we are tired of the model. I started with EverQuest back in 1998 or 1999, it was an exciting new world back then, but not near enough has changed for these games to "grow" along with us.
Why do all MMO's "since WoW" suck? Nope, not because they are WoW clones or any of the other reasons cited here on this forum every single day... it's because WoW is the ultimate MMORPG as we know the genre. Blizzard took the MMORPG model and came up with a winning game by doing the following:
Create a well polished game without a lot of bugs
Build the game so that it would run on most computers so people could easily talk friends and family into joining up
Use good art rather than high tech to make the game look good, causing it to age very well
Use an IP that transcended the "geek/dork" to "normal folks" barrier... an IP we grew up with that was as close as a video game could be to "cool".
Generating enough revenue to continue to very actively improve and expand their game.
Why do you all hate WoW? Mostly because of it's success. WoW clearly demonstrates that the best "MMORPG" that can possibly be made won't satisfy us anymore.
Why do MMO's suck?
1) The PEOPLE- The community is going to be full of idiots and bad attitudes.... "real life" is full of this but online there is even less reason for people to behave themselves... they can get away with anything... there are no serious repercussions.
2) The treadmill- For an MMO to be successful they need to hold onto their players... the only way to do this is to find a way to trick the people into doing the same thing over and over and over.... you can't very well provide a new and completely different game every couple months. So they put you on a treadmill with a never ending series of rewards to work for.... focus on the reward instead of the repetitive tasks and the game seems satisfying for many people.
3) The static environment- An MMO by it's nature must be a relatively static environment. First off the content has to be repeatable... so the bulk of the content or open world bosses and events have to be available to do over and over and over.... monster ridden ruins remain monster ridden, no matter how many times you clear them out.
4) This last may be debated... but if you want to hold the interest of the masses you have to make things easy.... MMO's were better for me when dying had consequences and no damned GPS maps... when quests didn't hold your hand and forced you to figure things out for yourself. That era is over and won't come back because people SUCK. If you took WoW and imposed a harsh death penalty, took out the GPS maps, and stopped the hand holding they'd lose 80% of their customer base because the lazy people would find it "frustrating" and "too hard".
Sandbox? Oh please. I played SWG from shortly after launch until a little while after the CU. SWG was full of bugs and exploits, but more importantly it was full of people who were interested in winning or achieving goals (like unlocking the force sensitive slot) instead of contributing to the game experience.
The people will ruin a sandbox every time if you let them in and give them a chance. I can't stress this enough.. people suck.
Make all the different variations you want, they are all going to be slight variations on the same "played out" concept.... MMORPG's had their day, it's over for "us". WoW will continue to dominate the market because nobody has the money to do what they do better than they do... and even if they did, you'd get bored of their game and wind up back on this forum talking about how that game sucks and preaching radical unrealistic ideas on how an MMO "should" be done.
Maybe some genius will come up with a whole new MMO concept that will really change things.... overcome the problems I listed above.. but I don't have the slightest clue how they are going to do it. I have "great ideas" for games I'd like to see made just as most of the rest of you do.. but none of them overcome those basic problems and I'm sure they'd lose my interest after a while too... especially because the players would be there with their drama and lousy attitudes.
Why do all MMO's suck? It's the "Massively Multiplayer" part that kills them..... and that is why I don't think any of you are EVER going to be satisfied with any of the titles you eagerly await each year.
You wan't to play MMO's? Go play WoW, that is as good as it gets. Me, I'm done with WoW because I'm done with the genre. I'm sick of the people and the treadmill..... and that is what makes MMO's MMO's.
I find it hard to believe you started with EQ personally. Just sounds like you used that as your start point to keep people's attention long enough to praise the game you really started with...
Do not agree at all with op, espec on 4. About "fail" ... does all beverages after Coke failed? Guess not. They are making money. But once king ... always king. Problem is all want to compare to "gorilla" and that is stupid. If you have only 200k subscribers this does not mean game is fail. If you only start thinking that way ... game will eventually become failure. I'm sure not even Blizzard could repeat success of Wow, wow offered the most at that time obviously. Hate it ... your problem. Want harsh death penalty? Sure ... if want game to fail. Do you feel like Rambo playing games with harsh penalty? Do not. Real man does not play games.
For sure there are other problems that infulences a lot games ... mainly bugs. If you can not play game = will fail sooner or later. Do not bring Wow argument about problems that plagued him at start. That was at THAT time, ago in history. Today is TODAY.
Rift is only1 after years and years that was virtually bug free since day 1 (ok, I have started after about 1 month into) and it is awesome game, 2nd only to wow. War, Aoc ... were plagued by bugs. FF14 ... born as failure full of genetic disorders, nothing to do now. CO is different story ... cartoony, very fun ... but only after leveled bunch up to lv. 20 or so (with worst support ever of all times I think).
Swotor? Hope works ... if not ... have Wow and now Rift.
All the last MMO that failed did so for 2 reasons.
They're P2P.
They're WoW clones.
pretty much agree, need to add leak of original content, and small size of new games,
as well as lot of grind and need of high graphic resolution.
Khm .... after years have decided that only NON F2P games are worth serious investment in game time, development of chars, .... etc. P2P is the way to go. Problem are games that should not exist not even as f2p immagine then as p2p.
Wow clones? Is problem being "clone" of the best of the best? Is problem is company makes car that has all good attributes of R&R just looks different? Sure not.
All the last MMO that failed did so for 2 reasons.
They're P2P.
They're WoW clones.
pretty much agree, need to add leak of original content, and small size of new games,
as well as lot of grind and need of high graphic resolution.
Khm .... after years have decided that only NON F2P games are worth serious investment in game time, development of chars, .... etc. P2P is the way to go. Problem are games that should not exist not even as f2p immagine then as p2p.
Wow clones? Is problem being "clone" of the best of the best? Is problem is company makes car that has all good attributes of R&R just looks different? Sure not.
Wow hater? Get shrink, game is not problem.
Well, if you're going to make a clone, you should make sure it's actually BETTER than the item you're cloning, otherwise people would just go back to the superior original. Which is exactly what has happened.
All the last MMO that failed did so for 2 reasons.
They're P2P.
They're WoW clones.
pretty much agree, need to add leak of original content, and small size of new games,
as well as lot of grind and need of high graphic resolution.
Khm .... after years have decided that only NON F2P games are worth serious investment in game time, development of chars, .... etc. P2P is the way to go. Problem are games that should not exist not even as f2p immagine then as p2p.
Wow clones? Is problem being "clone" of the best of the best? Is problem is company makes car that has all good attributes of R&R just looks different? Sure not.
Wow hater? Get shrink, game is not problem.
Well, if you're going to make a clone, you should make sure it's actually BETTER than the item you're cloning, otherwise people would just go back to the superior original. Which is exactly what has happened.
Not at all. I love pizza "quatrostaggioni". But still can not eat it for 20 years every single day and still enjoy. So will try alternatives. Even if NOT better. Will enjoy. But if original was better will eventually go back and start eating again my original pizza.
Only problem is if somebody want to sell me WORSE pizza for SAME money.
All the last MMO that failed did so for 2 reasons.
They're P2P.
They're WoW clones.
pretty much agree, need to add leak of original content, and small size of new games,
as well as lot of grind and need of high graphic resolution.
Khm .... after years have decided that only NON F2P games are worth serious investment in game time, development of chars, .... etc. P2P is the way to go. Problem are games that should not exist not even as f2p immagine then as p2p.
Wow clones? Is problem being "clone" of the best of the best? Is problem is company makes car that has all good attributes of R&R just looks different? Sure not.
Wow hater? Get shrink, game is not problem.
Well, if you're going to make a clone, you should make sure it's actually BETTER than the item you're cloning, otherwise people would just go back to the superior original. Which is exactly what has happened.
Not at all. I love pizza "quatrostaggioni". But still can not eat it for 20 years every single day and still enjoy. So will try alternatives. Even if NOT better. Will enjoy. But if original was better will eventually go back and start eating again my original pizza.
Only problem is if somebody want to sell me WORSE pizza for SAME money.
I guess a better comparison is, with WOW, it's like having 20 different toppings to choose from. The new MMO on the block only has 5 toppings, but they say those 5 toppings are better than the 20 toppings from the WoW pizza. You try it out, and while the new pizza is good, only 1 or 2 of the toppings are better than the toppings from the WoW pizza, and the rest are about the same or not as great. After a while you get tired of only having 5 toppings, and you decide to go back to having 20 toppings instead.
1) The PEOPLE- The community is going to be full of idiots and bad attitudes.... "real life" is full of this but online there is even less reason for people to behave themselves... they can get away with anything... there are no serious repercussions."
Comments
MMOs take a lot of time and money to make. Therefor they are going to be formulaic because no one is going to invest millions of dollars into something that is too original or innovative and therefor a financial risk. GW2 looks like they are trying to do something innovative. I suppose they got enough working capital and have suffered enough boredom with the standard MMO mold to want to do something different. Time will tell.
What the gaming industry needs is more eccentric millionaires who are crazy enough to fly with something not because they want to be richer but because they just want to see somethign different, something better, some creative vision out there in the world.
-- 1) The PEOPLE- The community is going to be full of idiots and bad attitudes.... "real life" is full of this but online there is even less reason for people to behave themselves... they can get away with anything... there are no serious repercussions. --
Actually, the communities were pretty good until WoW. WoW was noted within it's first 3 months as having the worst community ever (now they are challenged by DFO (and possibly RIFT, if live is anything like the beta.)
Now we have /b/tards and goons everywhere, and people that think that spouting memes and elite-speak, being a douche, and trolling makes them cool.
-- Sandbox? Oh please. I played SWG from shortly after launch until a little while after the CU. SWG was full of bugs and exploits, but more importantly it was full of people who were interested in winning or achieving goals (like unlocking the force sensitive slot) instead of contributing to the game experience.
The people will ruin a sandbox every time if you let them in and give them a chance. I can't stress this enough.. people suck. --
While I agree that SWG was very buggy, I only really remember the Combat Medic exploits being really game breaking.
SWG was full of people that were interested in many different things. I was a Master Doctor/Master Rifleman. My suppliers for my buffs never changed their skills. Neither did a majority of my friends.
Yes, there were quite a few that were interested in the hologrind. It was no where even close to everyone, though. Most people picked a class and stuck with it.
The people who started the ruin of SOE are the same type of people that play WoW now. They wanted the Jedi, and SOE denied them for awhile, until they relented and put in the hologrind. That was the beginning of the end.
I would place a hefty wager that a majority of people that left after the NGE were specificallly not hologrinders.
MMOs don't "fail" very often. People on forums quit playing them and they think everyone else does too.
What sould you say the biggest successes in MMOs are other than WoW? UO? Maybe SWG? Maybe EQ? The classics right?
Well news flash. None of those had the numbers that Rift has. None of them had 1/3 the numbers that Aion has. They are not failures by any stretch of the word.
Keep in mind that you are not a new gamer. You've seen it all before - well guess what - new gamers haven't seen it yet and they love it. 500k subs is not a failure.
SWG had 300k subs in it's hayday. UO never even made it that high. It only takes a couple hundred thousand subs to make an awesome game experience with packed servers and active guilds; and if you're new to MMOs there are more choices out there than ever before. AAA themepark deviations (Rift, Aion), quality Indy sandboxes (EVE, Darkfall, Planet Calypso), innovative F2P titles (Vindictus, Atlantica)... there are some good games out there.
The doomsday threads have got to stop.
Well - Pre-WoW, the MMO market was a quite small market.
And we dont know the numbers. The companies arent forced to publish them. So we never have the numbers.
Also keep in mind that WoW has its big numbers because its a success in asia. But I would think that an asian account would have less profit than a european or american one.
WoW haters
Rawr.
New MMOs fail because they're trying to armwrestle the 600 lb gorilla.
They're trying to beat WoW by playing to its rules... trying to be like it. But the plain fact of the matter is WoW's better at it, has had ages to be fleshed out, and has been doing it for 7 years now.
The boys at Blizzard must have had years worth of laughter from watching the competition try to topple them at their own game and failing miserably.
WoW's dominance will fade eventually, but 7 years of absolute, total genre domination is hilarious. It just shows the competition is incompetent and never has been able to figure it out.
"I have only two out of my company and 20 out of some other company. We need support, but it is almost suicide to try to get it here as we are swept by machine gun fire and a constant barrage is on us. I have no one on my left and only a few on my right. I will hold." (First Lieutenant Clifton B. Cates, US Marine Corps, Soissons, 19 July 1918)
All the last MMO that failed did so for 2 reasons.
They're P2P.
They're WoW clones.
You can play WoW 'till you run out of money.
FEEL THE FULL
FREE-TO-FLAME
FANTASY.
All new MMOs DO NOT fail.
The only ones that have failed are Tabula Rosa ( i think that is the correct spelling) and APB(which maybe not be a proper MMO). Please tell me one that has failed...........................
They may not have storming success like WoW but that does not mean they have failed. AoC, WAR, STOL, Rift, even Vangaurd all still running means they have not failed.
This genre is relatively new and is in constant change and will undergo all kinds of tranistional states before it reaches its peak which may take a few more many years from now due to the length of time each game exists for.
Be patient.
This.
I HATE WoW not because of it's success, but because it showed how many gullible people are willing to butcher the "depth" that the genre can hold for mere dollar signs.
WoW == lowest common denominator for people who like things given to them. I've actually tried WoW && WoW raiding. It's so simply basic, and thin-skilled that I couldn't even get into it whatsoever.
I won't even go into the simplistic cartoony wonderbread graphics -.,-
The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
^^^ This.
I hold Ultima Online as the true pinnacle of the MMORPG genre - the best of the best, the only true sandbox and only true MMORPG to ever exist.
That being said, if I were to install UO and play on a "classic" shard with all the same rules and systems etc. as I played 10+ years ago, I'd probably last a few days before I got bored and quit.
Games have changed. Players expect more, they expect more content, they expect more systems, and they expect products to be released in a finished state.
In that sense, gamers have changed.
If anything, the OP is very right about that - gamers have changed and we are as much to blame as the development studios for the direction this genre has taken.
The OP is very wrong about all new MMO's failing - there are a whole host of successful games that are much loved and appreciated by their fans.
There are no monopolies in gaming, choice is a GOOD thing, there does not NEED to be "one game to rule them all" that is the one concept many, many people on these forums never seem to grasp.
Not everyone needs to like or dislike a particular game. So why defend or attack a specific title?
There is a LARGE difference between sharing our opinions and experiences about a certain title and attacking/defending a title.
One implies knowledge, education, and proper debate, while the other incites anger, an absense of logic, and unreasonable discourse.
True, there have been games with no "soul" whose only purpose has been to try and "cash in" on the success of WoW. That cannot be denied.
However to imply those kinds of titles are the norm rather then the exception is both ignorant and damaging to the industry as a whole.
SOE dominated the mmo market for FIVE years with Everquest with their 500k subs before WOW came along
just because you are top dog does not mean you are best at mmos
SOE did have competiton preWOW
- even Microsoft cancelled their Mythica MMO because they didnt want to compete w Everquest
Boston Globe article from Feb 2004 (before wow existed)
http://otherworlds31279.yuku.com/topic/1167/Online-games-failure-success-Boston-Globe-article
Spurred by the success of EverQuest, lots of companies began launching persistent online role-playing games, without thinking through the demands of the market. "Too many products got created, to be used by too few customers," said Jeffrey Anderson, CEO of Westwood-based Turbine Entertainment Software, developer of another successful online game, Asheron's Call. "It's like we all decided we all wanted to create our own version of MTV."
EQ2 fan sites
Vast majority of companies make fincancial reports public. Also, there are insiders who deal specifically in this type of information. Not to mention press when the games are doing well. You can google your favortie company, followed by finincial data or subscription data, and you would be surprised how transparent most of this stuff is. There are also websites like mmodata.net who cite their sources and rate how accurate their information is.
The info is out there for people who look - and it's a lot more credible than what some random guy on a forum says.
pretty much agree, need to add leak of original content, and small size of new games,
as well as lot of grind and need of high graphic resolution.
try before buy, even if it's a game to avoid bad surprises.
Worst surprises for me: Aion, GW2
More than anything, I think that's the case. When I started EQ, really the only other MMO around was UO. Within couple years we had a few more - AC, DAOC, Shadowbane, and maybe one or two others. But there still wasn't a ton of selection. This meant that each game that was available was pretty unique, and there was more brand loyalty.
Nowadays, there are dozens of MMOs to chose from, and there are a lot of people who try every new MMO that comes out and don't stick with a single one for more than a few months. Developers, as such, I think, design games to attract a large initial subscriber base, and don't expect or work for having a large long term player base. A game like RIFT, for instance, while a pretty decent product in my opinion, there just isn't much there to hold the average player's attention longer than a couple months.
Have any MMOs since WoW actually grew in subscribers after the first few months? I can't think of any that may have. EQ1 was still growing up until shortly before WoW came out, as were a lot of the early MMOs. WoW depending on who you ask may have still been growing up until as recently as last year, and it's now fairly steady or possibly slowly losing subscribers.
If someone is entering the genre without playing an MMO before, most likely they are going to play what their friends are playing (which statistically is likely to be WoW), what has the biggest name (WoW again, soon to be TOR possibly), or just what is newest. This makes it hard for a MMO even six months old to attract new players.
Agree as well. Developers need to actually segment the market. Instead of trying to appeal to everyone who plays WoW by making a WoW clone, they should find out what a certain segment of MMORPG players really want and make a game that caters to them specifically.
If there is a significant percentage of WoW players that really prefer MMORPG-esque PvP, but they are playing WoW just because there's nothing better...then why not make a game that really caters to them? If you can satisfy their specific interest better than WoW can, then they're move likely to leave WoW permanently.
I think that Mythic tried to do this with WAR, but they kind of fell flat on their face by messing up RvR terribly.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
I got that impression aswell.
If it's not broken, you are not innovating.
Do not agree at all with op, espec on 4. About "fail" ... does all beverages after Coke failed? Guess not. They are making money. But once king ... always king. Problem is all want to compare to "gorilla" and that is stupid. If you have only 200k subscribers this does not mean game is fail. If you only start thinking that way ... game will eventually become failure. I'm sure not even Blizzard could repeat success of Wow, wow offered the most at that time obviously. Hate it ... your problem. Want harsh death penalty? Sure ... if want game to fail. Do you feel like Rambo playing games with harsh penalty? Do not. Real man does not play games.
For sure there are other problems that infulences a lot games ... mainly bugs. If you can not play game = will fail sooner or later. Do not bring Wow argument about problems that plagued him at start. That was at THAT time, ago in history. Today is TODAY.
Rift is only1 after years and years that was virtually bug free since day 1 (ok, I have started after about 1 month into) and it is awesome game, 2nd only to wow. War, Aoc ... were plagued by bugs. FF14 ... born as failure full of genetic disorders, nothing to do now. CO is different story ... cartoony, very fun ... but only after leveled bunch up to lv. 20 or so (with worst support ever of all times I think).
Swotor? Hope works ... if not ... have Wow and now Rift.
Khm .... after years have decided that only NON F2P games are worth serious investment in game time, development of chars, .... etc. P2P is the way to go. Problem are games that should not exist not even as f2p immagine then as p2p.
Wow clones? Is problem being "clone" of the best of the best? Is problem is company makes car that has all good attributes of R&R just looks different? Sure not.
Wow hater? Get shrink, game is not problem.
Well, if you're going to make a clone, you should make sure it's actually BETTER than the item you're cloning, otherwise people would just go back to the superior original. Which is exactly what has happened.
Not at all. I love pizza "quatrostaggioni". But still can not eat it for 20 years every single day and still enjoy. So will try alternatives. Even if NOT better. Will enjoy. But if original was better will eventually go back and start eating again my original pizza.
Only problem is if somebody want to sell me WORSE pizza for SAME money.
I guess a better comparison is, with WOW, it's like having 20 different toppings to choose from. The new MMO on the block only has 5 toppings, but they say those 5 toppings are better than the 20 toppings from the WoW pizza. You try it out, and while the new pizza is good, only 1 or 2 of the toppings are better than the toppings from the WoW pizza, and the rest are about the same or not as great. After a while you get tired of only having 5 toppings, and you decide to go back to having 20 toppings instead.
"Why do MMO's suck?
1) The PEOPLE- The community is going to be full of idiots and bad attitudes.... "real life" is full of this but online there is even less reason for people to behave themselves... they can get away with anything... there are no serious repercussions."
I covered this in my thread "
"Enough is Enough-- Will the [typical male young adult internet user] please die off already?"
I entirely agree.