Long time MO supporter leaves the game and tells why!!

Teala · February 2011

Originally posted by osmunda

Originally posted by raff01
Yup, MO's done. fiercest defenders of the game don't even feel like defending MO anymore, and obviously most players don't even know why they log on anymore.

MO won't make it past the end of 2011 I think...

Just wondering, you think MO is done because people aren't bashing thaeric for posting a well thought out critique? He made many valid points. Unfortunately they many of them apply to some of the toughest nuts to crack in designing a sandbox game.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scarcity_value   -- How do you make things have scarcity value if the only limit on resources is player time?

Thaeric: There was no competition, in the world of trade and economics, only the competition to get the sale in a market where demand was so low that traders struggled to make profits from sales, even if they had personally acquired the goods to cut costs of production. There were no significant 'secret' recipies or formulas that garnerd an advantage over anyone else from the aforementioned astronomical number of weapon combinations. Only a set standard, that was not only common, but almost suicide to ignore for the sake of being different.

Too much scarcity becomes a barrier to the entry of new players, too litle scarcity causes Thaeric's concern expressed above.

significant 'secret' recipies or formulas-- stop being secret when people post everything to the wiki http://www.mortalwiki.org/wiki/Recipes

SWG enforced scarcity value by changing the resources available every month. It works, but means you have to relearn the resources available constantly and is not a terribly satisfactory answer.

Simple, do what Turbine did with Asherons Call and magic. Players had different taper combinations and no two were the same.   A system similar to this would go a long way to stopping "recipes" from cropping up on such websites.   It really is possible and Turbine proved it was possible with their game. SWG's solution was actually pretty decent. It may have been simplistic in its design but it worked.   Only the players that took the time to find the higher quality resources were able to make the best items.   As it should be.

With the addition of butchery, SV is clearly working towards a better balance on this front

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attrition_warfare -- How do you force an enemy to the negotiating table, when the enemy has an infinite number of lives, no meaningful limit on resources, and no family waiting for them at home?

The game must be designed to allow for attrition-warfare.    Say a player creates a kingdom and this player has 50 players under his command(think Asherons Call liege system - which was awesome by the wya). Then say that for each 25 players that player has under his command he can have one fief and one castle(with keep).   With 50 players he can have an actual town as well - as long as he has the funds to maintain them. That means this player now controls two fiefs, one town and a castle.    These fiefs must raise crops, gather resources and provide protection from bandits and what not(think Age of Empire game play here - fiefs can support so many NPC's and so can towns and the castle - the NPC's along with the player kings followers help keep things running smoothly).    As the play king grows in power so does his riches and those of the players beneath him.    If the player manages his holdings and such properly he will prosper.   He can expand his territory or just keep what he has. It's a matter of wealth...wealth is power. Wealth enables him to raise an army..made up of not only players, but also NPC's he and his cohorts can control.

Intro another player King.   He has territory that runs along side the our player Kings territory.   He has his eyes on expanding his kingdom. He knows that our player King is wealthy and has x number of players under his control and well guarded fiefs and town and castle.   He also has lots of resources.   Forest, crops, mines, graising lands, and access to the ocean which provides fish.   This player King has 35 players under his control. How can he possibly win a war against the King with more resources and more people and NPC's under his command? War of Attrition.     He will have to attack the resources of the other king relentlessly to basically starve the other kind of resources. Not enough resources and the our Kings wealth and the players under him become poorer. As he becomes poorer, it becomes harder to replace the mill that was destroyed in a raid.   The contant burning of his fields means less food. This also means that he'll have less NPC's to gather other resources because as our King becomes more poor he can no longer sustain a great enough population to maintain his weath. The other King is actually getting richer as he attacks. When he raids our kings holdings like the fiefs, the town and such he gains resources. Resources that he can sell.   With greater wealth he can raise an army(think Mount and Blade or Age of Empire here).

If one King does not manage their resources and wealth porperly, someone is going to lose the war.   If our King cannot maintain a certain level of wealth to conscript enough NPC's to fight for him he will eventually lose.

Something like this can work - (btw I did not add all the things that would need to be in place in order for this to work - I just layed out a rough ideal).    It will take players cooperating with one another in many ways.   We see it in EVE.   Players control territory, resources and what not. The same could apply here only deeper.   "IF THE GAME IS DESIGNED RIGHT".   Unfortuantely, MO, there is no such system in place.

http://www.brokentoys.org/2009/02/19/the-mordred-problem/  -- How can you place appropriate limits on PVP? If you restrict it too much it becomes a meaningless sideshow (WOW arenas) If you don't restrict it enough, some people feel it becomes the sole focus of the game.

Game has to be designed with PVP in mind. There must be consequences, risk and reward, and some form of penalties to control mindless PVP.   Many games neglect this aspect and what you end up with is nothing more than a "Lord of the Flies" game world. Anarchy insues and the game devolves into mindless PK'ing battleground.

The first sandbox that comes up with a truly satisfying way of addressing the problems that thaeric brings up will, probably be a major hit. In the meantime, SV and others will be trying to work towards a better balance

Yep...the first sandbox that gets all these elements right will be a success.    It might not have millions or players, but it'll do as well as say EVE in subscribers and if the games producers are not in it to beat or even compete with WoW, but in it to bring a new game for the type of players that are looking for this kind of game play..."they will come."

raff01 · February 2011

Originally posted by Svartlackad
Haven't this game been out for like 2 years and NOTHING works, still? How is it floating?

If you talk about players, well they do float pretty well.

Thaeric · February 2011

As much as it hurt to type all that stuff, I felt that it needed to be said. Not just because I felt that way, but because countless others did as well, and spoke to me about it. Many of those players were 'under the radar' to the point that had they spoken out and said anything on the forums, they might have just been ignored, or SV might never have seen the post, much less read it. After speaking with some of my friends, we decided it would be best if I stepped forward and shared those feelings, as I had a good chance of being heard, both by other players and SV, and hopefully helping SV realize how dire the situation is from our perspective.

I know for a fact members of SV read the thread, though there has been no official response to me or the public. I don't know that they really need to make one. It was put in the suggestion thread for a reason, because a lot of that was suggestions, not necessarily a debate or discussion.

I love MO's concept, and the posibilities alone are addicting to think about, however, SV has had a much harder road than even they could have anticipated, and it has clearly taken a toll on the game. I will continue to follow the game, mostly because I still hope MO will pull through and because many of my friends, particularly my guild members remain. But thats all I will do for now.

Thank you for the kind words. I too hope that we and players like us find a 'home'. We have waited long enough.

For the time being, I will toy around in EvE while I continue to scout for other possibilities.

Noobgren · February 2011

I guess if Henrik or any other dev answered you Thaeric, it would be the same kind of answer as in this thread:

http://www.mortalonline.com/forums/58672-still-waiting-real-sandbox.html

That is, the same kind of excuses as always. Almost nothing regarding the design choices, the priorities, the direction of thje game, the actual features - but a lot of talk about why *insert technical issue of choice* failed yet again and why *insert most recent factor outsideof SV's control* is to blame.

Thaeric · February 2011

While past evidence shows that to be a good bet to place, I still have hope that it changes. Someone just pointed out that SV has altered the "current" list of what they are working on. I can not say if it had anything to do with my post, or anyone elses for that matter, but even if it had nothing to do with it, at least it is a step in the right direction if they in fact follow through with it.

If I didn't have hope left for MO I wouldn't have bothered with my post, I would have just said goodbye to my friends and left.

Yamota · February 2011

Originally posted by Thaeric
While past evidence shows that to be a good bet to place, I still have hope that it changes. Someone just pointed out that SV has altered the "current" list of what they are working on. I can not say if it had anything to do with my post, or anyone elses for that matter, but even if it had nothing to do with it, at least it is a step in the right direction if they in fact follow through with it.

If I didn't have hope left for MO I wouldn't have bothered with my post, I would have just said goodbye to my friends and left.

I think you are betting on a losing horse. SV has time and again shown that they simply are not up to the task of producing a game on this magnitude.

I mean the games has sand in it but nothing worthwhile can be built from it, the quality of the sand is simply too low.

Thaeric · February 2011

I think you misunderstood the bet.

Inveritus · February 2011

On a completely different note, how the hell did princereaper get banned? I'd ask on the MO forums, but I'm afraid I'd get the same treatment.

shogunone · February 2011

Originally posted by Inveritus
On a completely different note, how the hell did princereaper get banned? I'd ask on the MO forums, but I'm afraid I'd get the same treatment.

I would like to know as well. I thought he had earned special points with all the "MO is awesomesauce even tho I am not subbed" drum beating.

Inveritus · February 2011

Originally posted by shogunone

Originally posted by Inveritus
On a completely different note, how the hell did princereaper get banned? I'd ask on the MO forums, but I'm afraid I'd get the same treatment.

I would like to know as well. I thought he had earned special points with all the "MO is awesomesauce even tho I am not subbed" drum beating.

Exactly. He's one of the most pro-MO people alive.

chriswsm · February 2011

I was in the process of downloading the trial (was involved in the beta but only for a week or so then work got in the way).

I am no longer downloading the trial due to one sentence from the post on the MO forums linked above

One of the things that drew a lot of players to support MO include the fact that it was announced as a sandbox, where players would not only change the world, but be given the ability to shape the world, write it's history, make it the way they wanted it, and if others got in their way, there would always be combat and war to force it if necessary. But the core idea should have been that this is a sandbox MMO with open pvp as an intricate part, not a pvp world with sand.

Sandbox = great. But the open PVP being the main driving force for the players make this sound just as bad as Darkfall. Open PVP is fun dont get me wrong however it is ALWAYS abused by a certain type of player. You know the type.

Germaximus_S · February 2011

Wow thats a really good read and very sad to see.

Thaeric · February 2011

Originally posted by monstermmo
Wow thats a really good read and very sad to see.

Thank you, and yes, I agree, it is very sad. Not sad that I left, but sad that so many before me did for the same reasons.

SV isn't down and out yet, I suggest anyone who loved the idea of the game keep it bookmarked and just keep watching it. I am, no matter how bleak it looks.

mgilbrtsn · February 2011

Yet another game I made the mistake of buying. I was in love with the idea, but didn't pay attention to the negative vibe on the forums. I really new I was in trouble with the updater (or whatever it called) and installer. When u have to manually go in and copy files, something is very wrong. In all fairness, I didn't give it an honest shot. I had so many problem at launch, that I just uninstalled it after only a couple of days. Sadly I still don't hear a positive vibe about the game, but I always hope it turns around so that I can jump in.

ste2000 · February 2011

Sadly no developer understood how a sandbox game should work yet.

All the so called recent "sandboxes" are no more than just open PvP MMOs.

Darkfall, Mortal Online and Earthrise all focus way too much on the PvP aspect of the game.

But a sandbox game can even live without PvP, look at SWG pre NGE for example it was just PVE but people loved it.

I personally believe that a sandbox should have the PvP in it in order to be complete, but the PvP should be a part of the game not the main feature.

EVE is the only Sandbox that does it right (although it is not 100% sandbox), there is lots to do apart for fighting.

I don't play it because I am not fond on SCI-FI theme in general and Space themed MMO in particular, but if EvE was a Fantasy I would play only that.

All the new Sandbox games are more like Shadowbane than Ultima Online or EVE.

I still play Darkfall, but not as often as before, I just take part in some battles and that's it.

There is no Sandbox element in it whatsoever unfortunately, so MO is not alone.

Could Richard Garriot save the genre by going back to basics and making a sequel to Ultima Online?

I really hope so because all those rookie developers don't get it.

sionide · February 2011

Interesting read, Thaeric.

You make some valid points. I didn't try MO, I learned my lesson with DF.

Like XBludX, I suggest trying Xsyon...perhaps not now, but in a few months you might be surprised.

SandroMal · August 2011

Originally posted by Teala
Thaeric, if you ever read this, thanks for taking the time to write such a wonderful piece. It shows the passion you have for your style of gaming - one I happen to share. It also shows you have a grasp of what a game like MO could have been like. Sadly it did not turn out that way. If I had the funds and could produce the type of MMORPG you and I would enjoy playing, I'd hire you to help make sure that the game stayed true to its vision and provide the type of game world players like you and I are looking for. Keep up the good fight maybe one day we'll see a game produced that is everything we think a game should be.

I realize this is a bit of a necro, but totally worth it!

"If Henrik is the Messiah, Thaeric surely is God".- Lemonz

"/sign

I left MO because of those things written by God." -Aspalar

"Yeah, pretty sure Rob was Thaeric." - Bear

It seems Thaeric decided to see things done right and play god himself. Thaeric = Rob Steele? Creative Director of Forsaken Studios? Could we be seeing the start of fulfilled promises instead of empty ones from a sandbox game devloper? God I hope so, I for one would love to play the game that is talked about by 'Thaeric' in the OP, and again in 'The Vision' On Forsaken Studios website.

kallearses · August 2011

anybody else saw mr.necro?

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Long time MO supporter leaves the game and tells why!!

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Long time MO supporter leaves the game and tells why!!

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