Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
A few ideas about next-gen MMORPGs... and something more!
ChetDarn
Member Posts: 17
Hi All!
Well, I read some of the 573 pages of topics, along with replies, and I didn't see anything discussing about something pretty important in our beloved site: how could MMORPGs possibly evolve, which new features could be added and at which cost.
I am a professional developer, but I never worked in the gaming field. Nonetheless, I develop my applications with the total satisfaction of the customer in mind - which is sometimes a bit weird when you develop financial, accounting or office applications. I lead teams of developers, and I know what it means to hold against the "holy fire" of deploying the best solution, all at once, with all the ideas pushed into a project - no matter how big and skilled your dev team is. But I am a big fan of games too, having started playing back in 1985, when the PC was really *young* and all we could do was dream of the "next-gen" PC, while tampering with an 8-KB CP/M system barely able to clean its green screen.
My experience with MMORPGs is not that deep - I own WoW and GW, among other titles, but I have spare time to play only a few hours a week, especially during the night. But I have anyway a clear idea about what I, as a player, would definitely like to see implemented in a MMORPG, and what's pulling me back from investing more time and money in MMORPGs currently on the market.
Of course, what I am going to discuss here is my bag-o'-wishes, as a child could write in a letter to Santa... I don't mean in any way to lay down a real analysis about any of the topics I will be listing here - unless some of the leading companies will think that hiring me could be a good idea! 
But, let's start this - it's 4:42AM and I need to get up early tomorrow! 
One-World vs Instances
First of all, the way the world appears to the player. Should it be one whole world, or a lot of instances, with only a few common gathering points scattered here and there through the world? There's no doubt that the first is the winning solution, even for solo lovers like me. Actually one of the most appealing things is to move in a moving, life-breathing world. And if you remove players, you are stuck with ferns, trees, sky and monsters, with the little or no companionship of a few scarcely-interactive NPCs. Of course the performance is affected - and the development much more complicated when it comes to manage areas with hundreds, if not thousands, of concurrent entities interacting with each other. But, that's the way it has to be to be taken seriously. Isn't the world in which we move just one world? We do not get into a tube to find it almost empty or populated by robots. We are living in a one-world reality, and we want that from a simulation. As much as I like GW, this means WoW beats GW 3-0.
World's Characteristics: Extension
An important characteristic is the dimension of the world. How big should it be? Well, let's think once again in terms of "real world" simulated on an array of computers - both servers and clients. As human beings, we're used to *huge* distances in our planet - we can't even imagine to *walk* through continents - even if modern vehicles have changed the view of the whole problem and reduced distances in matter of hours. Therefore, it's strictly depending on the nature of the MMORPG: a fantasy world could afford to cover a much smaller area than a space-based simulated universe. But even in that case, with slower transportation, moving through continents should take weeks. And if we think of those long gone times back in 1200-1600, one of the most dangerous risks was that actually doing the trip was possibly as much challenging as fighting a war - if not worse. Without taking it to those limits, I tend to consider the size of the world one of the most realistic aspects of the simulations, and overcrowded worlds should simply not exist because there aren't that many people. Of course, that would limit interaction with players to places like cities and villages, but, isn't that *exactly* what it was going to be back then? Just let's throw more villages in. Of course, this means much more environment to be set up, with more sceneries and features. WoW is really wonderful with the different cities and places it has. But I tend to consider it a little bit small for my real "needs". And forget about the fear of having huge empty areas with little or no [inter]action: it's all up to the way the environment is. A trip taking an hour or two (from one village to another, let's say in a 1:20 scale with reality), with a mandatory camping including setting up a fire, cooking a hot meal, laying down under a star-filled sky and occasionally have to defend against monsters wandering in the night it's going to be much more rewarding than having the possibility to travel point-to-point with no problem - wether using GW teletransportation or WoW beautiful version of "traveling". Both make the trip a time waste, and cut it off, more or less. I think that would be an interesting part of the gaming adventure, and I would rather use it to set up more challenges. Of course, this also mean that transportation should be much more inexpensive than it is in WoW, so that everyone could afford some. After all, a horse wasn't exclusive prerogative of kings...
World's Characteristics: Weather
A big point. I've seen a few beta games trying to put it in, but I still have to see it implemented correctly. As it should, weather delights players and frightens developers and project leaders, because it can mean the failure of the whole game if not carefully planned and implemented. A simulated weather system is one of the most complicated system you can throw in such a game, but also one of the most rewarding. I really think it will be a prerogative of next-gen MMORPGs. Of course, when I mean weather I mean everything related to it: seasons which change and affect vegetation, health, and landscape; day and night that we can really call such - not a pale change in the contrast/luminosity applied to the fixed landscape, with different kind of encounters according to the time of the day. And, who told you that players HAVE to see in the night? Elves can, and even them not as good as during the day! Humans can't - I personally tried! What's the big deal in reducing the gamma to a limit of almost total blackness, unless you're carrying a torch? Isn't that what actually happens if we get up in the night and we forget to switch the light on? OK, I already hear the screams of all who don't want to go around packed like mules with all kind of stuff - torches and wood. That could just be an option for "serious gamers", beginners can spoil it with the "constant daylight" check with a click. And, talking about fires and torches, this leads directly into the next point, which is:
World's Characteristics: Manipulation of the Environment
We don't want to have our avatars bring around woods for the campfire. Actually, in several places, that would be impossible (think of a desert or a mountain). But there're infinite ways of coping with that - from wizardry to parchments to powders - which can be used as a great, satisfactory surrogate. And then there're woods, and places were vegetation is actually there. The point is, how having our little hero go get some wood for the fire? It has to be able to perform A LOT of actions. Picking something from the ground is not enough. You might need to cut a branch from a tree, or eradicate a bush. The environment complexity grows outrageously, and with it the complexity of the movements of our hero, and therefore the complexity of the interface we have to use to make him actually chop THAT branch down. Let's add gettig water at the streams, or bathe in a lake, or wisely pick rocks on the way to leave a track or engrave them or dispose them so that someone else could receive the message while passing over there... that would make the power required to manage this complexity not less than 10 times the one needed today to let WoW run. Well, a couple of years should fill the gap... in the meanwhile, let's just be satisfied because our avatars leave nice footprints on the ground! But, believe me, we're going to pretend much more than that in next-gen MMORPGs.
Housing
Is a life without a home a real life? WoW simulates it faintly with the concept of Inns. But, that's not what we want. We want a place we can call our own, set it up the way we want (according to our finances and tastes, and local artisans available to have the job done), and be able to stuff it with all our findings and goods. As we do in our beloved homes. Since this is putting together all the complexity of world manipulation with the housing problems (you don't want to have a mate build a house in the middle of the main route connecting two villages!), I think we'll bathe in scorching sun and freezing snow a lot before we'll have the possibility to enter a world with a satisfactory housing system. Nevertheless, if no one tries it first, no one else can improve it. Got the message, Blizzard? Anyway, there're also means of living a life without a permanent residence. It's the case of thieves, rogues, and vagabonds who dwell even in our society, and for sure back then (if we think of a fantasy world). In this case, the home can be as easy as a portable tend, or a camp bag. Just introduce something that lets the player sleep during the night. Because there's something I really cannot stand about nowadays' MMORPGs:
Avatars Are Not Made Of Iron!
We need to rest. We need to eat. We need a lot more, but those two are really essential, and actually you can live if you can eat every day and have a place to spend the night - even outdoors. So what's the point in having an always-running avatar who just spends his life running from monster to monster, killing and butchering, or incinerating and stealing, without even thinking of taking a nap from time to time? Or never eating or drinking? That seems so unnecessary to the final goal of games, doesn't it? WRONG! That's the situation if your game is all about leveling, and that's it. But this is NOT what the most recent MMORPGs are tending to. They want to simulate a life, and WoW with its "parametrized experience from killings" tries to open the way to that. Only stopping a bit too soon: there's still no need of eating nor drinking, and resting is actually optional (that is true, you make less exp, but, what's the deal? You keep running anyway!). I cannot run for an hour, let's imagine if I can run AND FIGHT for an hour. Why should my hero able to do so? Can't you see how boring everything becomes after a few hours? You just log in some topic and read the flames about the so hated point-and-wait attacking method. What's so boring is not the actual interaction with the single fight (although there IS a point about that too), but the fact that fights never end, in an endless, self-repeating, boring sequence. Of course you have to grow. Of course you have to make experience. Of course you like to find monsters, kill them, get the loot. But, not in that way. It simply doesn't work! You get tired, and you lose aggressiveness, temper. Your fatigue grows. Your breath shortens. Isn't that an incredibly easy feature to implement in games? Just raise proportionally the failure rate of blows, attacks and parries with the passing of time, or the resisted spells, or the machine gun or laser hit rates. It's that easy. I know companies want to keep games tied to the game. I am simply asking, would you like to hold them for a year, or for YEARS? A slower pace doesn't mean bored players: it means, deeper and better simulation making the player play longer only in order to discover more about the game itself. Come on, it takes one hour to figure it out completely in all games. While semplicity is one key to success, flatness and self-repeating actions are the shortcut to game disappointment and, in the short run, abandon.
PvP vs PvE
Uao. That's a HUGE point. I know there're A LOT of PvP out there who cannot even think about a game without PvP. I am keeping an eye on D&D Online, and they had the guts to state that the game will not have a PvP, at least at the beginning. Personally, I don't feel the need of PvP: I am an explorer, in life and in games, and I like to discover, to know the unknown, to be there where no one has been before (yes, of course, I am a BIG Star Trek fan). But there's a point: PvP is not something you have to like, it rather has to be there. It's too innate in our nature, that its absence would be registered as a deadly lack, or loss. There have to be thieves trying to pickpocket YOU (not just the monsters, as a WoW rogue is able to!), and yes, you may be occasionally pulled into an unwanted fight with an unsuspected enemy. It happens all the time even by the street. And since we're well equipped to fight monsters, why can't we simply keep in mind that there can be "bad guys" on our path to glory? I have been playing D&D since 1990, and we all know that an EVIL character, if well played, can give a party a boost into the intriguing, unexpected, unusual behaviour and therefore lead to challenging situations which are way much more "tasty" than a civilized, well-mannered group of paladins methodically hacking bad monsters while handkissing ladies. Of course, the whole thing must be placed into the game correctly - no "bad guy" as a class, but as the result of actions: no excessive penalty for slashing a thief, and some possibility to lose even precious artifacts - especially if you're dumb and the thief is a damn good one. Just to make things fair, we can think of setting up limits of some sort - like the level difference between the thief and the victim (but, would a novice thief actually attempt to steal a golden-carved sword from a king? Or, can you picture an excellent thief pickpocketing a street urchin?), and a level of clumsyness raising at certain conditions. Fight should always be an option - but lead in a totally different way: the outcome of a human attacking another human has to depend on each one's skill, but it's not likely to be as sure as it would now in actual games if a level 3 character would engage a fight with a level 50 one. There should always be the possibility for a mistake, a fall, a bad movement, and luck for the attacked...
Monster, Drops and Quests
Uh, so our hero just happened to kill a wolf. How neat! And how good is that 8-slots bag the wolf was carrying! How many things I can stuff in it! But hey, hold on one sec... how comes that a wolf is carrying an 8-slot bag with himself? Was he carrying some brand new claws just in case his own got damaged while molding an unlucky hero? Monsters drops sometimes make me crazy. And it would be so easy to make it be real - just give each monster what's naturally a possibility for the monster! What about coins held by green oozes? That's possible, they engulf everything they get in touch with. What about coins dropped by a leech? That's impossible, unless it's something the monster ate. It's THAT easy. "Oh, but this way you will never find good drops". Silly! Monsters can drop invaluable parts of themselves - eyes, teeth, claws, fangs, wings, tails, feathers - it's up to the project to give those items a good value. With money, you can get good items in shops. Manage the appearance of items in shops with the same frequence you would expect a monster to drop it. Or, let the players get good items in well protected chests or hidings. That's the natural way things work. Why change it in such an innatural way?
About quests, I find the limit of 20 too high. Come on, we cannot keep up with 20 "main goals" in our life - one or two at a time is more than enough. No one forces you to finish it, then just go ahead and change it. I'd suggest three main quests, besides a larger number of minor quests (like the collectors' ones in GW or material in WoW). Also, I like the mechanism of instances that WoW set up for group quests - actually there's no better way to make the same quest available to an endless group of players other than making an instance of it. Just let's try to get rid of silly ones (go kill 5 black quips / come back / get 50 copper / now go kill 10 blue ones / come back / get 75 copper / now go kill 20 yellow striped ones / come back...) you can do better than that.
Well guys, it's almost 6AM, and I guess I will have to go with just a couple of hours of sleep. But, I wanted to share with you all my thoughts about these challenging, interesting, great possibilities. Challenging for dev teams and companies, because they'll be measured on these topics in the next games by US, the playes! Interesting, because they will make the whole world of simulation a little bit closer to reality, and that is the dream of all lovers of MMORPGs. Great because they will be anyway a step further in developing a world, and even other fields could enjoy some enhancements coming from gaming factory. I hope I didn't get y'all bored, stay tuned and give me your feedback!
Claudio de Biasio
Comments
-In memory of Laura "Taera" Genender. Passed away on Aug/13/08-
|
RISING DRAGOON ~AION US ONLINE LEGION for Elyos
A good 3/4ths of your ideas have already been done in many mmorpgs like Astonia 3, Star Wars Galaxies, Runescape, Anarchy Online, Everquest, Dark Age of Camelot, EvE online, Star Wars Combine, and Strive for Power. But you still have other intresting ideas. Some which would be nice to have in mmorpgs. Like weather having more direct effects on players.
-Personal Website (A Work still in progress):
http://www.geocities.com/xplororor/index.html
-AC, AC2, AO, EQ, Freelancer, SWG:
http://community.webshots.com/user/xplororor
-More SWG:
http://community.webshots.com/user/captain_sica_xol
-More EQ, Dungeon Siege, *UXO*, Diablo II:Lords of Destruction:
http://community.webshots.com/user/xplororor_archives01
-EverQuest II, Horizons:
http://community.webshots.com/user/xplororor_eq2archives01
-EVE Online !!!
http://community.webshots.com/user/sica_xol_archives01
-DAoC
http://community.webshots.com/user/sica_xol_archives02
-Coming sooner or later... CoH, WoW, MXO, UO, GW, As3, RS
Actually in Saga of Ryzom weather does play a role in animal migration.
I really dont see many new ideas in the post. Play more games.
If your waiting for DDO and you dont like instances you wont like DDO. DDO is Guild Wars 2.0
Make a difference!
Everything you talked about has been discussed before...many times. But that doesn't mean it's bad to express your opinion.
What this all basically comes down to is people who want a --virtual WORLD-- versus people who want a --character building GAME--.
A virtual world can, and almost certainly would, include character building. But it wouldn't be the sole focus and the design of the world wouldn't be dicatated by that one simplistic goal.
I could go on and on about this stuff but I won't right now. Basically the question is: Do we want a virtual world that feels like a world...or...do we want a game that is just a series of areas in which to level up/skill up.
I want a virtual world. And over the years I've noticed a growing discontent with the shallow, linear games the industry has presented us with. I think there is a growing desire for the virtual world idea...or at least I hope there is. Your post adds to the collective voice of we who want a world that feels and functions like a world.
And now I'll tell you something to look at. I've been trying not to advertise this game too much because it's so far from release. But your angst has touched my heart. So check out Trials of Ascension. It's not perfect in the virtual world sense but it's not too far off and it's the best I've ever found.
My short reply is that people play games to escape reality. Making a persistant world that goes by the same rules of real life would be just as tedious as real life. I'm not saying that a persistent world is a bad thing, mind you. But you would really have to concentrate on the focus of the game. For instance, a persistent world that's based on the stone age or survival on a deserted island would be very interesting but the experience would have to stress things like making shelter, crafting tools, working in small communities for protection and support. The minute you step away from a focused and deliberate design (i.e. simulate everything you can and just leave it at that) you get a great big wad of crap that doesn't go together at all.
Another thing I would like to bring up is time. As you've already pointed out, your time is limited and so is the time of most of your player base. If they can't log in and be entertained in an hour or less then the game isn't worth buying. Long walks and repetitve tasks that don't stimulate the skills of the player (not the character, they're two different things) waste the player's valuable time.
Alot of what you brought up has been discussed previously and some of it has even been attempted. The problem is that most of these games tend to ignore many elements of game design outside the MMORPG genre. GW is an exception due to the fact that they made combat and teamwork the focus and went to great lengths to make it work. Many ideas sound great on paper but fall apart in practice. A game is like a wheel, it has a central element on which all of it's other features and elements revolve around. Find the focus of the game and the rest will fall into place.
BTW, here are a couple of good games that break the mold and deliver exactly what they set out to deliver.
http://www.puzzlepirates.com/
This is a cute, "family friendly" game that stresses teamwork and challenges the player without making it to repetitious. I haven't played this yet, but I've heard alot of great things about it. From what I've heard, it has a killer chat system that filters out everyone but the small "circle" of people that you're talking to. It also stressed teamwork.... sort of
http://www.atitd.com/
There is absolutely no combat in this game. Players that enjoy this game are achievers and they want to make things. The central element of this game is crafting and large group projects dot the landscape. Exploration is also encouraged since you need to gather resources to build. If they could somehow combine this with a survival type game......
I would have to say that most of these things that you talk about in a so called next gen game were done in one of the first online games UO. This game was so far ahead of it's time that developers are still trying to re-create in in a 3-D environment. If you like games that are open for your interpretation than this is the one to try. I miss the days of being able to outrun fireballs and now that the sissy land was put in it drasticly changed the type of players. But it does encompass most of the things you have described as next gen.
I have some hopes for Dark and Light and also think that some of the key ideas behind Roma Victor are truly unique.
This is what I want though,
A truly immersive world where quests aren't pre made but rather created by higher up players. Much like a little title known as Underlight. I want a truly community driven game where you can actually learn skills from the real people you meet. I want a game with the harshest death penalty ever. When I die, I want to be dead. But I would also like a family tree with abilities and skills that get passed down through generations. This would make having a high level character both an accomplishment and something to have to work hard to keep. It would really balance out PvP as well. I would also like to see environments that can be changed I want houses that need to be built with resources rather than money. I want people whose job it is to collect resources and actually be a viable way to make money. I want unique items that are created by players and a nice mercenary system. I want governments that debate and wage war. I want factions with slaves that have no say in what they fight. I want food that makes me fat. I want a community of people that work for the greater good, I want ones that work for greater evil.
Is this soo much to ask?
-Saft
Well, first of all, thank you for letting me know, as I stated, I don't have that great knowledge of all the MMORPGs, and unfortunately, I don't even have the time to broaden my skill over a certain limit of hours... I am already into trying to training myself into .NET environments, and that's pretty time absorbing.
What I was saying, basically, is that I know that all what I listed has already been peeked into here and there... but it seems to me that all the - let's say - 20 points have been scattered through an equal number of games: SoR has weather, AO has terrain manipulation, EQ2 has housing, SWG has real trips... we don't have one single game putting at least half of those "old" innovations together in a single, better representation.
About DDO, if you say it's totally instance-based, well, that doesn't really disappoint me. Actually, I think that a nicely-interactive group of explorers can get the most out of it (I imagine groups, i.e. small guilds of up to 6, 8 partecipants at most, gathering, arming, facing a level in a dungeon or a cross of a mountain, as we always used to do in our nights when playing D&D on paper)... For sure, the spirit of D&D is not the one of a whole huge community, rather a list of (moderately) little steps into discovering new places and dungeon hacking carried on with a good team. In THAT case, instances can still be effective and, de facto, a good choice.
Thanks for replying!
Claudio de Biasio
Hi Saftwear
!
Good to know about UO
. Actually, it has to be 3D, and damn good one. That's another point where several engines still go wrong - wether stretching patterns and textures in such an unreal way that they look soooo fake with the chars moving on them, or attempting to set up something extremely greedy in terms of power, like Codemasters with its incredible environmental engine... it's a great challenge for most game developer teams, and I really think it will a won battle pretty soon, considering the power released in a modern home PC.
I will keep those under a special eye (I already heard of something about them... let's hope they won't end up like Dragon Empires!
)
May I dare to say, I guess so?
Hehehehehe. Even in my frantic search for a simulated reality, that *is* a little bit too much. And not because of all the ideas you throw in - most are perfectly legal and reasonable - but because several base their very nature on a super-skilled RPG player. And we don't have that many around (should I say, "Yet"? Naa... we will NEVER have hordes of GREAT RPG players, all playing the same game, as we will never suffer for the abundance of geniuses!). Food could make you fat easily, that would be OK, and really easy to have. But, who would ever like to be playing a slave with no rights and no possibilities? 
Even if the online fee were zero, would you seriously set up a character whose sole purpose in the game is to be flogged while moving rocks? With maybe the faint idea of setting up, one day, a rebellion? Come on. We all want to be heroes! 
That simulated world is for someone (I'd say, more than they could even admit) the only one territory (should I say, "instance of reality"? 
) where they can actually *WIN*. I have friends who reached level 60 in WoW, and they were as happy as if they won the lottery. They "made it". I know, that sounds stupid - just devote half or more of your day to that for a few months, and there's no way you cannot do that. Still, it's so rewarding... to think you are among the strongest, toughest avatars around. No, definitely, you are not going to have a player play a slave role. Or even a simple merchant. Or a farmer. Or a real blacksmith, who only has to get logged in to hit an anvil and create swords or other items to be sold. Isn't that a reality we all want to escape? We want exploration, thrilling adventures, huge monsters to fight (and defeat! 
), great treasures we can call "ours". Other ideas, I think, would fail for the same reason. We're humans, and we want to think that in our "perfect", "ideal" world we are *all* rulers. Management of a society by players would be just impossible, without setting up all the wrong things we already have in our real society: corruption, thievery, blackmailing, and so on. Why should *I* accept that *you*, with your character, could outrank or rule me? Elections don't even work that very well in our real world, it would be impossible (I think) to set them up in a replicated environment. Or, they would lead to the same situation - you go and place your vote for someone, and someone else gets elected! (
That makes me so mad! 
) The same for the rules created by high level players. Those could be Game Masters, probably hired by the dev company, and doing what they have to do because they have to that in that specific way. That would be as fake as leave everything as it is now - a few simple rules maintaned by a server. Permanent death is not a problem, but if you want to work on this point there's enough stuff for discussing for years: PvP, levels, classes, skills, luck, co-operation, moods... everything would get so complicated! 
Family trees, descendants, and skills passed down through generations are a little bit more possible, but then again, so many problems to make it come real... would you really "marry" someone and stick with him/her for the rest of the life... of your avatar? Wouldn't you rather go from "flower to flower" 
, and just replicate what you're *not* supposed or allowed to do in your real life? (unless you belong to one of those groups where polygamy is accepted). And. What about the *real* credo of the *real* players? A world-wide game like that has to take into consideration all the different cultures, and respect them all, or - sure as hell - some organization would just spring up branding the game as "an obvious derogatory brainwashing tool conceived and deployed only to grow new generations of killers of their community" 
. And we all do not want that, do we. Especially if we were forced to live a second life as a slave husband in the hands of a matriarch society... just because the player who set up the rules is playing this game since a couple of months more than us, so he/she can state the rules...
That's a long way to tell why I am so concerned about environment, but scarcely into communities and players relationships, for a very simple reason. Environment can be totally programmed and maintained by a server. A player cannot and will NOT obey any kind of "natural" rule - unless imposed to do so ("You won't bash a damn house down simply because your laughable pick will NOT work on the fake bricks of the house, no matter how long or hard you torture your poor mouse").
I think your idea of a game is way far more "next-gen" than mine - it's almost a second reality lived in a generated environment. I guess we'll have that when the Star Trek holodeck will be finally released (BTW, there are scientific groups working at that, but they're kind of stuck because they have to first make the replicator and the teletransport work
). Nevertheless, as forums are there for us to express what we want, what a great addition to my "next-gen" specs! Hope Blizzard, or Sony, or any other great company is reading us... let's just stay tuned!
Have a nice week,
Claudio de Biasio
Hi Jimmy!
I totally agree with you. Actually, my "requests" were not in terms of a 1-1 simulated reality: rather, they focused on a very few aspects of current MMORPGs which could be succesfully implemented while keeping the original concept of the game. A totally simulated environment/world, like the one described in Preston & Child's "Mount Dragon" (beautifull book!) is exactly as boring and senseless as real world can be - so why to take any effort to duplicate it so well? No, I was really meaning, a few additions to certain aspects of a game, not a totally simulated reality.
Yep, that would be the case when you want to replicate the faded, gray reality of a builder or a carpenter (or even a soldier: most times, they just practise and hang around without anything to do!) living in this simulated world. I only meant to add some flavours - e.g. camping out and seeing that the during the night is really dark and you cannot really see.
As I said, it has been attempted in a really chaotic and extremely partial way - an idea here, a hint there, the bases for another one in the second release of another game again -, while times could be really ripe for some big popping out with a all-in-one new game... and I am pretty sure they actually are working on something like that.
Interesting ideas. Will check them out. Thank you for sharing these! Bye!
Claudio de Biasio
I guess it depend on what you expect from your game. What is a perfect setting for someone can be the worst setting for another player.
Exemple: If I need to eat, pee, sleep and basically waste my time rather then PLAY, I will not enjoy the game and do something else. I do understand some players like to play more ''complete simulations'', but to actually enforce it on every players, like tedious travel, is not improving the game for every player. If you want to run from point A to point B, sure why not, but me, I just want to be there NOW, yes yes, my character run 2 weeks, but there is no point, no edge, no reason, to make me suffer and do it, I dont want that, I want to jump to the fun part. My character sleep, eat and everything, but I dont want to play that, I want to play some aspects and leave some out.
A winning game OFFER it to players, so the REST in WoW is working fine, since players can avoid it. Dont presume my character dont sleep, presume I dont play it. The computer can play that just fine. A player want to PLAY some aspects, I dont want to run in others players if they are not in my group, and instancing is just perfect for that. A MMORPG should OFFER, never enforce. The mistake in DDO is that you cant explore and run for weeks...the option should be there...I agree that the default should be instant porting to the dungeon however. Maybe they will add a full world later in an expension if there is enought players motivated, and maybe monsters would be hiding in instanced zones mostly, rather then plain opening...yet a few exceptions could be good. Me I dont want to travel, if I am ambushed, jump me to an instanced ambush and let's resolve that. The only possible improvement I could see is an option to allow peoples to help you in an instanced ambush under some conditions(ranger with tracking and and please help icon clicked + certain distance from the instancing entrance)...see, instancing in a direct effect remove players interactions, but this can be added later. A ranger with tracking could see, in his tracking list, that a group around level X is currently in troubles in this direction and crying for help...and there you go and get the feeling of an open world(even if the ranger is in another instanced just beside, he could freeze his instanced and come back later, yet maybe a few mobs add in his instanced or not).
See, enforcing on players is not the solutions, players want to PLAY some aspect of the game. Some want to raid, some want to PvP, and some want to just simply group and solo...so having a self relevant system, completely independant, for each of those aspect, would be something we all want. I want raiders to be happy raiding, but I dont want them to come and shaft the grouping system, raiders dont deserve to rule the grouping system in any form...yet they deserve to be good at raiding.
A player that take the time to sleep, eat, dress his character deserve a small XP bonus in the rest of the game, but nothing that compensate the time he invest doing this. You need to work a system that should motivate peoples to do that, I really dont see it yet(because mostly I dont like that at all), but peoples who actually like this must have some system of progression they enjoy and that have nothing to do with the system a maniac like me enjoy to kill tons of mobs, maybe it could open them customisaton stuff or some other aspect that have a direct link with ''Simsplaying'' a character. Maybe they could have an ''Arena'' and gain stats for that, but there must be non-combat systems and rewards that could be worked out for those players(yet I would really not mind been lame in an Arena that I dont care about and if they care about a system on their own that include fighting, *shrug* no harm done to my system where I play).
PS: Medieval TOTAL WAR is prolly the best exemple of a non-enforcing system that work, yet it is far from perfect...it is a pionner however.
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
I don't know, I really think there is a time and a place for a game like I described.
Let me just describe it a bit better.
As far as it goes, everyone starts off as a slave to some power. I would think maybe three factions. These factions can be headed by a select few beta testers. and they will be alloted armies and such and will be aloud to select who would lead different branches. This would cause the forums on the dev site to beam with marketing goodness.
The fresh players would be thrown in as slaves to either of the factions. And a character created. No skills except for gathering /hunting/breadmaking/ whatever you would want a servent to do for you. But this much would be chosen by the new player and not the King/emporer.
Yes life would be tough you would have to do what you are told, you would get paid a stipend for your labor and all the goodies you collect/make you get to keep a certain amount of. Slaves will be free to do what they wish and may just have PvP gladiotor matches for money and fame or could just sit and do nothing. Bad Servents would be punished by not getting extra gold/goodies that are given from the lord/king.
If you die as a slave than you are dead and need to create a new female char or sex wouldn't be important with the same last name. Marraige would be something that would not benecessary but certainly an option if people want to create offspring with a passion for the same skills or skills that work well together. You would always keep your family home and some of their possesions or just the possesions in the home and money that was put into the bank.
But like I said you die a slave you can only create a slave char.
You could obviously work your way out of subordinatism or buy your way out depending.
Once out all your characters will be free or still work for your faction and gain a new set of skills completely. Maybe you could start warrior training or continue making bread. Or learn how to use persuasion from a political leader you talk with. All skills would be tought to you by other players who have the skill. Granted you do quests for them.
Eventualy you gain a report with your leaders/higher up people and may gain access to special tasks such as a more faction based fighting. Like we sent a shipment of weapons to Caricou and it was ambushed. please take a squad of "fill in the blank" and two woodworkers to get the wagon back.
Certainly items would be worth more than plain old gold. which should be true of all these MMorpg's but just isn't.
I guess I'm just sick of working so hard and spending tons of time in a game just to see numbers go up, I mean how many times can we get excited about a +10 to Swordsmanship hat, or getting to the next level so i can put one more point into said ability so I can use this skill. I want a game that Everyone could look at and be proud of what they have created and made and done. Second life utilizes this and is probably one of the most well thought out and simply mindblowing games out there, but I like to pretend I'm a wizard.
Well just some more ramblings
But I have some really interesting combat systems rattling around in my head right now. OOO
-saft
Set that in space, with a massive war between factions and fps combat and that's pretty much my ideal game. I'd love to see the line between pc and npc characters blur, to the point where when you are on a mission you don't know whether the person you just killed is someone x miles away or an AI. I completely agree with the progression system of gaining ranks/social status, and that it shouldn't be based on a linear xp system that encourages grinding. The idea of players promoting other players is superb -though it would have to be carefully set up to prevent abuse.
---sig---
PvE in general is pretty lame, if you think long and hard about it. You are spending your time beating a severely gimped AI that would lose to a well trained monkey. Best not to think too long and hard why you are wasting time playing games in general actually...