Does it really matter? I mean, whats so bad about Anet having a plce where you can raid in the deepest darkest corner of the map? Heck, all I see is people hating this raiding thing becuase it has been done before. If you dont like, don't do it. Rewards can be the same exact thign as the dungeons, not to high or low. Also, if you are so scared about getting yelled at by people for not having the right build (which I'm sure will happen in dungons at some point) they can randomize it. I've never done raiding, but I have played Gws 1. I myself am willing to try it, not join on this bandwagon of hate raiding. It is kind of silly... kind of like the entire show about the debt ceiling in Washington D.C. Pointless, and over dramatized.
P.S. CANT WAIT FOR GW2
Most people here aren't really hating on raiding. Heck, I experienced quite a bit of raiding, for the 1st time in Rift recently. But the thing about raiding is that it goes directly against ANet's design decisions for the game (like how they don't want people waiting around to have fun). But really I just can't see raiding working due to the lack of the strict trinity roles that define most MMOs.
Just think about it... Without tanks or healers, can you imagine GW2 having extremely difficult raid encounters like this, without being able to effectively co-ordinate combat tactics? Not as if you can keep track of what 20 other players are doing.
The main reason im playing GW2 is due to it having a casual friendly 5 man endgame.
Now im a tad worried that the 10-15% of the playerbase that plays 60+ hours a week and schedules their lives around a video game is going to be too vocal (as all of the hardcore game minorities are) on the net and force A-net to cater to you and in turn forcing everyone that wants the best stuff in game to raid.
As far as im concerned Raiding should have been deleted out of this genre after EQ.
Do you guys think they will add it in due to pressure from the small minority of hardcores?
Or will they stand their ground, let us enjoy Exploration mode dungeons and play without needing a worthless schedule just to enjoy the best stuff in a game?
That's what they are, a small minority. But on the forums they usually form a vocal majority. Fortunately, most GW2Guru members despise endgame that consists of raiding (and I do believe that GW2Guru is the site that's most regularly watched by ArenaNet).
There may be a small minority of hardcore raiders, but there is a large population of raiders.
GW has taken a different direction with their game and I doubt they are going to rewrite a whole different end game just for a large population of people who aren't likely to play the game in the first place. I mean really...it's not even a true mmorpg. They wouldn't be caught dead playing it.
How can there be a large population of raiders if the game won't have raids? That's the first thing, the second one is: do you know most of the raiders hate raiding? (I'm one of them).
Your view of a "true" mmorpg is probably WOW and anything different/better from wow is a trash. So why are you even bothering with this post? Either study the game a bit more or go back to the basics of what MMORPG actually is so you don't get laughed at with similar posts.
P.S. ANet is a company which communicates with players and it's community more than any other game company out there... So if ppl will really want something they'll find a way to implement it in to the game so it'll be fun, different and better from anything we've ever played... Atleast that's what they're trying to do in 1st place with this game...
"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life." -------------------------------
Originally posted by cali59 Originally posted by ravtec
Originally posted by grimm6th
heh...every time I see people complain about no raiding (based on group size) I remember fighting the shatterer. If going through a DE chain with 50 people isn't similar to raiding, I don't know what is. Additionally, I would like to know if people have considered the possibility that WvWvW will have elements of raids built in to them.
While i agree they aint ur regular raid, im a bit unsure but cant all DE expand to raid size not only epic bosses? No, it depends on the DE. Some of the smaller ones might only scale up to say 10 people taking part. It would just get too chaotic for an unlimited number of mobs to be spawning in a small area. Remember there's no set path through the zone so people are going to spread out and explore. It won't be like WoW where in the new expansion you've got 50 people killing the same mobs and respawning them before you can loot the corpse or all standing around waiting for that quest boss to respawn. (Anybody else ever make a /target Mobname /cast Earth Shock macro and mash it while waiting?)
So what happens if there are 20 people there? People who don't have enough to do because the event won't scale just get bored and wander off? I don't see that being a good idea.
I've honestly never considered the possibility of too many players at a smaller event at one time. It never occurred to me, I don't know why. But I've never heard anything from Anet on it, or I glossed over it. Do you know this, or are you guessing?
And yes, I have done similar macros.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
You know, raiding doesn't have to be what it has currently evolved into due to other games.
Just a thought.
There's nothing wrong with Raiding how it was originally intended.
Massive scale battles against open world bosses, mobs or even dungeons that offer that type of content.
The negatives are having lock out timers, requiring guilds to schedule runs to clear this stuff weekly because all the best shit is rewarded through this content. How exclusive Raiding has become when it was originally intended as a more social community based mechanic much like Dev run server events.
I'm currently playing RiFT and two of the ways it implements raid type content is though raid rifts and zone invasions.
Both can be joined casually and enjoyed by everyone without running a damn schedule.
Sadly the Awesome gear in Rift is held within the progression raids and those make RIFT turn into a second job.
heh...every time I see people complain about no raiding (based on group size) I remember fighting the shatterer. If going through a DE chain with 50 people isn't similar to raiding, I don't know what is.
Additionally, I would like to know if people have considered the possibility that WvWvW will have elements of raids built in to them.
While i agree they aint ur regular raid, im a bit unsure but cant all DE expand to raid size not only epic bosses?
No, it depends on the DE. Some of the smaller ones might only scale up to say 10 people taking part. It would just get too chaotic for an unlimited number of mobs to be spawning in a small area.
Remember there's no set path through the zone so people are going to spread out and explore. It won't be like WoW where in the new expansion you've got 50 people killing the same mobs and respawning them before you can loot the corpse or all standing around waiting for that quest boss to respawn. (Anybody else ever make a /target Mobname /cast Earth Shock macro and mash it while waiting?)
So what happens if there are 20 people there? People who don't have enough to do because the event won't scale just get bored and wander off? I don't see that being a good idea.
I've honestly never considered the possibility of too many players at a smaller event at one time. It never occurred to me, I don't know why. But I've never heard anything from Anet on it, or I glossed over it. Do you know this, or are you guessing?
And yes, I have done similar macros.
From the wiki: Most events scale for up to 10 players; participation, not level, is the determinant for event scaling.[5][6] Special large group events, such as the Shatterer fight, scale for up to 100 players.[7]
Here is one of the attributions it's referencing, Eric Flannum at GW2Guru: Even when we have one of our company "all-calls" and play the game with 200+ people jumping into the same starting area at the exact same time we have found that it is rare to have more than 10 people at the same event as people spread out very quickly and start to do different things. We've also found that unless the encounter is built for it, more than 10 people starts to become more confusing and less fun for players. Events that are designed for more people like the Shatterer are designed to last longer and draw more attention to themselves so that they draw more players to them.
All of that being said, it is possible for us to change these numbers around and we have certainly done so in the past and will continue to do so in the future as we gather data and see how people play (especially once we go to beta). But for now, 10 is the number that works for the game.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it."-Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
Just think about it... Without tanks or healers, can you imagine GW2 having extremely difficult raid encounters like this, without being able to effectively co-ordinate combat tactics? Not as if you can keep track of what 20 other players are doing.
Yea I can, it just won't be the same kind of difficulty. GW2 focus on on-the-spot tactics, like CC and movement prevention (Guardian for example), since bosses aren't attracted to the tank (or anyone player) you tend to get bosses that moves between players, thats where the tactics come in, you need to constantly judge the battle and use different skills and weapons.
It is a different kind of tactics and playstyle, some may like it, some may not.
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW? As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
Does it really matter? I mean, whats so bad about Anet having a plce where you can raid in the deepest darkest corner of the map? Heck, all I see is people hating this raiding thing becuase it has been done before. If you dont like, don't do it. Rewards can be the same exact thign as the dungeons, not to high or low. Also, if you are so scared about getting yelled at by people for not having the right build (which I'm sure will happen in dungons at some point) they can randomize it. I've never done raiding, but I have played Gws 1. I myself am willing to try it, not join on this bandwagon of hate raiding. It is kind of silly... kind of like the entire show about the debt ceiling in Washington D.C. Pointless, and over dramatized.
P.S. CANT WAIT FOR GW2
Most people here aren't really hating on raiding. Heck, I experienced quite a bit of raiding, for the 1st time in Rift recently. But the thing about raiding is that it goes directly against ANet's design decisions for the game (like how they don't want people waiting around to have fun). But really I just can't see raiding working due to the lack of the strict trinity roles that define most MMOs.
Just think about it... Without tanks or healers, can you imagine GW2 having extremely difficult raid encounters like this, without being able to effectively co-ordinate combat tactics? Not as if you can keep track of what 20 other players are doing.
I'm sorry, I have to say that didn't look like a particularly difficult raid encounter. I mean no disrespect, but if you're only getting into raids in Rift, and this is your standard of extremely difficult, you might not be familiar with complex tasks raids are capable of performing.
Combat tactics can be coordinated in GW2, what it requires is planning ahead of time. The game might actually become a lot like a holy trinity game if people are truly dedicated on determining the best tactics. Back in the EQ days, clerics had a complete heal spell with a 10 second cast. You could have 5 clerics each with macros saying "Casting complete heal, NextPersonName in 2 seconds", and then that person would know to cast so you'd have a complete heal hitting the tank every 2 seconds.
I can see something very similar happening in GW2. You could have a few people spec'ed as tanks, who know who is next to rotate in when the first tank is in trouble. You could have a bunch of people spec'ed as support who would know to rotate their AOE heals in that area. You could have DPS doing the same thing with fire walls and poison clouds for extra damage. Heck, you could have a buddy system (or a chain) for reviving so if someone goes down everyone knows exactly who needs to break off and revive that person.
Even in the 5 man descriptions we've heard so far we've heard people need to get their tactics down as far as everyone having an AOE option on their bar to deal with swarms and whatnot. Even in 5 mans, it's not going to be as improvised as people just deciding to jump in or switch to healing. If instanced raiding became a thing in GW2, I bet there's guilds who could come up with precision tactics that would blow our minds.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it."-Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
Originally posted by wojtekpl Originally posted by Vayran
Originally posted by CalmOceans
Arenanet doesn't need raiding as much as other games. P2P games use raiding as a form of addiction to keep you paying every month, since GW2 is F2P they don't need this scheme.
Just to clarify, GW2 is not F2P, it's Buy 2 Play. Agree with the rest of your post though. B2P is still under F2P same like humans and dolphins are still mammals That makes no sense, B2P is its own separate model. It has been around for ages. Since the days of the old Atari consoles.
I'm sorry, I have to say that didn't look like a particularly difficult raid encounter. I mean no disrespect, but if you're only getting into raids in Rift, and this is your standard of extremely difficult, you might not be familiar with complex tasks raids are capable of performing.
Combat tactics can be coordinated in GW2, what it requires is planning ahead of time. The game might actually become a lot like a holy trinity game if people are truly dedicated on determining the best tactics. Back in the EQ days, clerics had a complete heal spell with a 10 second cast. You could have 5 clerics each with macros saying "Casting complete heal, NextPersonName in 2 seconds", and then that person would know to cast so you'd have a complete heal hitting the tank every 2 seconds.
I can see something very similar happening in GW2. You could have a few people spec'ed as tanks, who know who is next to rotate in when the first tank is in trouble. You could have a bunch of people spec'ed as support who would know to rotate their AOE heals in that area. You could have DPS doing the same thing with fire walls and poison clouds for extra damage. Heck, you could have a buddy system (or a chain) for reviving so if someone goes down everyone knows exactly who needs to break off and revive that person.
Even in the 5 man descriptions we've heard so far we've heard people need to get their tactics down as far as everyone having an AOE option on their bar to deal with swarms and whatnot. Even in 5 mans, it's not going to be as improvised as people just deciding to jump in or switch to healing. If instanced raiding became a thing in GW2, I bet there's guilds who could come up with precision tactics that would blow our minds.
Players of any game will sooner or later find out some good and some less good tactics. I am sure we will see odd tactics, like 5 rangers with barrage and certain pets doing dungeons together, as well as certain kind of semi tanking.
All systems have things players can exploit and players are good on finding stuff like that.
But as long as there is multiple solutions and I can group with my friends no matter what class they played and still do dungeons with them is it fine enough for me.
That a certain group with a certain tactics would make things easier for us is fine, as long as it isn't impossible with certain combos, just harder.
Arenanet doesn't need raiding as much as other games.
P2P games use raiding as a form of addiction to keep you paying every month, since GW2 is F2P they don't need this scheme.
Just to clarify, GW2 is not F2P, it's Buy 2 Play.
Agree with the rest of your post though.
B2P is still under F2P same like humans and dolphins are still mammals
B2P requires a $60 upfront cost. It's clearly not free to play. If you want to say it's got no subscription, that's fine.
F2P has all sorts of negative connotations. Even in cases where it's not P2W, it's probably very difficult to find a game that doesn't hold you back in some way in order to convince you to pay for something. At the very least there's a constant reminder of the cash shop.
B2P doesn't hold you back, it gives you everything you need to play the game.
I'm asking you to not make the argument that GW2 is F2P. At the very least you're forcing someone else to clarify later, or potentially turning off someone to the game entirely.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it."-Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
The main reason im playing GW2 is due to it having a casual friendly 5 man endgame.
Now im a tad worried that the 10-15% of the playerbase that plays 60+ hours a week and schedules their lives around a video game is going to be too vocal (as all of the hardcore game minorities are) on the net and force A-net to cater to you and in turn forcing everyone that wants the best stuff in game to raid.
As far as im concerned Raiding should have been deleted out of this genre after EQ.
Do you guys think they will add it in due to pressure from the small minority of hardcores?
Or will they stand their ground, let us enjoy Exploration mode dungeons and play without needing a worthless schedule just to enjoy the best stuff in a game?
Depends on various factors. Pandering to the 733t raider kiddies is hardly limited to Blizzard, and Ghostcrawler. The fact is, its relatively cheap end game content to turn out. I'd say it depends on what size their stable population turns out to be, after the typical spike, decline.
That will help determine what size their live team turns out to be. If they have more team resources, it will be easier to stay away from raider content. But never forget that NCsoft ONLY cares about the bottom line. If some NCsoft suits think they can make more money (or spend less...) by using raider content, then there will be great pressure to produce that.
B2P requires a $60 upfront cost. It's clearly not free to play. If you want to say it's got no subscription, that's fine.
F2P has all sorts of negative connotations. Even in cases where it's not P2W, it's probably very difficult to find a game that doesn't hold you back in some way in order to convince you to pay for something. At the very least there's a constant reminder of the cash shop.
B2P doesn't hold you back, it gives you everything you need to play the game.
I'm asking you to not make the argument that GW2 is F2P. At the very least you're forcing someone else to clarify later, or potentially turning off someone to the game entirely.
Agreed. Most computer games are really B2P, online or not. Soon he will say that Modern warfare 2 is F2P as well...
F2P is very common in social medieas, like Facebook games. You don't pay to download the game but either it sells something in game to you, shows commercials or is included with a product, like a music CD.
P2P is kinda a abnormality in computer games, MMOs have really been the only type with that model.
Depends on various factors. Pandering to the 733t raider kiddies is hardly limited to Blizzard, and Ghostcrawler. The fact is, its relatively cheap end game content to turn out. I'd say it depends on what size their stable population turns out to be, after the typical spike, decline.
That will help determine what size their live team turns out to be. If they have more team resources, it will be easier to stay away from raider content. But never forget that NCsoft ONLY cares about the bottom line. If some NCsoft suits think they can make more money (or spend less...) by using raider content, then there will be great pressure to produce that.
Yeah, but quests are a lot easier to make than Dynamic events as well.
ANET and NC soft for that matter knows that it is an advantage to own a game with a different endgame than the rest. If you like raiding is it likelier that NC soft will try to get you pick up Aion or Lineage 2 instead of messing up their own games.
It is not an advantage to sell a dozen identical games.
I don' t mind if GW2 does or does not have raiding.
If raiding is present, as long as there are alternatives to obtaining quality gear I'm all good.
What I object to is end game designed around the common raid model where a player has to fight their way through a level of raid content (many, many times) and the rinse and repeat once they achieve that goal.
Raiding should be there for fun and entertainment, and perhaps some cosmetics rewards but overall all it should be designed as the "ultimate" content that is permanently out of reach for the average player.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Depends on various factors. Pandering to the 733t raider kiddies is hardly limited to Blizzard, and Ghostcrawler. The fact is, its relatively cheap end game content to turn out. I'd say it depends on what size their stable population turns out to be, after the typical spike, decline.
That will help determine what size their live team turns out to be. If they have more team resources, it will be easier to stay away from raider content. But never forget that NCsoft ONLY cares about the bottom line. If some NCsoft suits think they can make more money (or spend less...) by using raider content, then there will be great pressure to produce that.
Yeah, but quests are a lot easier to make than Dynamic events as well.
ANET and NC soft for that matter knows that it is an advantage to own a game with a different endgame than the rest. If you like raiding is it likelier that NC soft will try to get you pick up Aion or Lineage 2 instead of messing up their own games.
It is not an advantage to sell a dozen identical games.
that is true whats good loke feeling like a dancing jawa today . ^^
Imagine a top level open world dungeon that works like a public (or several) events.....
Tough i wouldn't be surprised if they made instanced dungeons scale with the same scaling systems they use for Public events, to create bigger challenges for multiple groups at top level. They allready have the tools, and they can easilly create more and better content. But i highly doubt that they will ever make this kind of content a requirement for top level gear.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
I'm sorry, I have to say that didn't look like a particularly difficult raid encounter. I mean no disrespect, but if you're only getting into raids in Rift, and this is your standard of extremely difficult, you might not be familiar with complex tasks raids are capable of performing.
Combat tactics can be coordinated in GW2, what it requires is planning ahead of time. The game might actually become a lot like a holy trinity game if people are truly dedicated on determining the best tactics. Back in the EQ days, clerics had a complete heal spell with a 10 second cast. You could have 5 clerics each with macros saying "Casting complete heal, NextPersonName in 2 seconds", and then that person would know to cast so you'd have a complete heal hitting the tank every 2 seconds.
I can see something very similar happening in GW2. You could have a few people spec'ed as tanks, who know who is next to rotate in when the first tank is in trouble. You could have a bunch of people spec'ed as support who would know to rotate their AOE heals in that area. You could have DPS doing the same thing with fire walls and poison clouds for extra damage. Heck, you could have a buddy system (or a chain) for reviving so if someone goes down everyone knows exactly who needs to break off and revive that person.
Even in the 5 man descriptions we've heard so far we've heard people need to get their tactics down as far as everyone having an AOE option on their bar to deal with swarms and whatnot. Even in 5 mans, it's not going to be as improvised as people just deciding to jump in or switch to healing. If instanced raiding became a thing in GW2, I bet there's guilds who could come up with precision tactics that would blow our minds.
Actually that example I gave was for the 1st raid guilds usually attempt (Greenscales Blight). Other raids are far much harder and to my knowledge, the newly released Hammerknell has yet to be completed by anyone. Well that was a week & a half ago, so maybe it's been completed.
Anyway, I can easily imagine how GW2's combat will be in the super hard explorable dungeons. 5 players performing on-the-fly combat tactics, after spending sometime improving & fine-tuning their group synergy. However I just can't picture the same in a 20+ group raid.
Having a 'Raid' as in a wow style raid is really pointless and HAMPERS gaming experience in GW2.. well you have to first ask yourself what is a raid and why is it there in the first place. well Raids are larger groups compared to parties and have maybe 20-25 ppl or more max ive heard is 32 people. Raids are used to play content that is challenging and is considered hard for a normal party to do. It can be from a tough boss to a sort of Dungeon...whatever. its basically tough content meant to challenge a large group of people.
In GW2 there are gonna be quite a few Dynamic events requiring more than 50+ ppl and end of event bosses that can scale upto 100 people like "The Shatterer" (which is ONLY a mid lvl boss). Now you can have raids of 20 something ppl, but what good is it, in such a situation. you can have 5 raids even but in such a case you gonna find a situation where people are gonna be so much more busy trying to form a raid.
Plus GW2 game mechanics provides a better system without the formation of raids. No holy trinity... so no need of dedicated healers or tanks, anyone can help do any role, everyone can ressuruct dead/fallen players. Also everyone has self heals and the group heals are not party based or number of player based. they can help heal anyone in radius of the skill. Add in cross profession combos. So some one uses a ground focused aoe heal and if people stand in it and fight or shoot arrows, bullets etc it will help heal everyone in its path... for the first time people have to react not based on reducing hp bars but on the situation. it provides for more 'on the fly' decisions and helps to make combat in general more dynamic.
Also why do people raid in current mmos? the answer is for Epic/Legendary gear. it isnt to enjoy the content but to seek the reward. isnt that kinda bland/boring really? People should play a game to enjoy the content/Experience the game has to offer. The reward should be like the cherry on top of the cake not the whole point of playing. But i dont blame anyone for thinking of it in such a way, its the current state of the industry. Also think of the problems of forming raid parties- not everyone can be accomodated, someone can really mess up the whole raid, people can ninja loot, it so schedule based that can be a big problem when dealing with people around the globe. But in GW2 "YOU DONT HAVE TO BE IN THE SAME GROUP TO WORK TOGETHER" you can just be 30 random people fighting of the bandits or killing that stone elemental boss or taking down the enemy guard tower. The "Experience you have", my friends is more great than just doing something for "Rewards". So when you do large group events or even 5 man explorable dungeons, you're not going to bother abt loot, chance to participate, etc ; but your gonna be excited to see something new and different and try to do something to help.
So in Essence its bigger than a raid but without ever being hindered or bothered by the limitations of raids. I would compare doing a weekly raids like watching one movie over and over and over again. For a change why not do something new
I hate scheduling my life around a game, but I'm also not really interested in MMO pvp either. I haven't heard a lot that suggests this game is for me.
It's not a PVP only game. PVE and PVP are totally separated. On release, the PVE side of the game will have I've heard 25 large PVE zones, 1500-1600 dynamic events (totally replacing quests in a more engaging, community oriented way). Each character will have a personal branching storyline and there will be 8 dungeons (each with a dungeon story mode, which then unlocks the explorable mode with 3 distinct paths, so essentially 32 dungeons). There will also be 5 races, each with their own capital city and leveling zones, and 5-6 unique minigames per capital city (shooting gallery, perpetual bar brawl, basketball with a keg).
It might still not be the game for you, but don't dismiss it because you heard it's a PVP game.
Thanks for the response. I'll need to look into the game more, as all I seem to hear is that it's end game is mainly PvP. I really liked the developer videos I've seen but I haven't really seen them address end game.
Does it really matter? I mean, whats so bad about Anet having a plce where you can raid in the deepest darkest corner of the map? Heck, all I see is people hating this raiding thing becuase it has been done before. If you dont like, don't do it. Rewards can be the same exact thign as the dungeons, not to high or low.
It all depends on the rewards. I quit WOW because I don't want to make a schedule to play a game if I want the best rewards. As long as GW2 never adopts that model then having raids is fine. It should be about providing options for advancing your character and focusing on teh most popular ones for new content.
Does it really matter? I mean, whats so bad about Anet having a plce where you can raid in the deepest darkest corner of the map? Heck, all I see is people hating this raiding thing becuase it has been done before. If you dont like, don't do it. Rewards can be the same exact thign as the dungeons, not to high or low. Also, if you are so scared about getting yelled at by people for not having the right build (which I'm sure will happen in dungons at some point) they can randomize it. I've never done raiding, but I have played Gws 1. I myself am willing to try it, not join on this bandwagon of hate raiding. It is kind of silly... kind of like the entire show about the debt ceiling in Washington D.C. Pointless, and over dramatized.
P.S. CANT WAIT FOR GW2
Most people here aren't really hating on raiding. Heck, I experienced quite a bit of raiding, for the 1st time in Rift recently. But the thing about raiding is that it goes directly against ANet's design decisions for the game (like how they don't want people waiting around to have fun). But really I just can't see raiding working due to the lack of the strict trinity roles that define most MMOs.
Just think about it... Without tanks or healers, can you imagine GW2 having extremely difficult raid encounters like this, without being able to effectively co-ordinate combat tactics? Not as if you can keep track of what 20 other players are doing.
I'm sorry, I have to say that didn't look like a particularly difficult raid encounter. I mean no disrespect, but if you're only getting into raids in Rift, and this is your standard of extremely difficult, you might not be familiar with complex tasks raids are capable of performing.
Combat tactics can be coordinated in GW2, what it requires is planning ahead of time. The game might actually become a lot like a holy trinity game if people are truly dedicated on determining the best tactics. Back in the EQ days, clerics had a complete heal spell with a 10 second cast. You could have 5 clerics each with macros saying "Casting complete heal, NextPersonName in 2 seconds", and then that person would know to cast so you'd have a complete heal hitting the tank every 2 seconds.
I can see something very similar happening in GW2. You could have a few people spec'ed as tanks, who know who is next to rotate in when the first tank is in trouble. You could have a bunch of people spec'ed as support who would know to rotate their AOE heals in that area. You could have DPS doing the same thing with fire walls and poison clouds for extra damage. Heck, you could have a buddy system (or a chain) for reviving so if someone goes down everyone knows exactly who needs to break off and revive that person.
Even in the 5 man descriptions we've heard so far we've heard people need to get their tactics down as far as everyone having an AOE option on their bar to deal with swarms and whatnot. Even in 5 mans, it's not going to be as improvised as people just deciding to jump in or switch to healing. If instanced raiding became a thing in GW2, I bet there's guilds who could come up with precision tactics that would blow our minds.
@ Master
So you think dungeons won't ed up the same way? People will adapt to raiding just the same as they will to dungeons. Also, you can randomize it if people begin fighting, and make it into a 5 man raid thing. Your goin to have to wait for anything you do, whether it be dugneons, pvp, raids, minigames, etc. People just need to get used to it.
Do not want 40 people to split the loot with, or to have to join a guild with that many people. If you want to feel surrounded by lots of people doing one thing, do WvW or dynamic events. I thought they were trying to get away from this stuff.
It would be kind of pointless anyways for structured pvp since they said you get the best armor given to you, probably like pvp characters in GW1 but no unlocking.
I don't get why it would be bad to have raiding in GW2.I mean if you don't like it, then don't do it.If you have all the tools u need to play the game at the level in which you want to play it.Then why does it matter to you if people who want to spend more time and effort raiding to get a item and sense of accomplishment from it? I mean if you don't care for raiding , and are able to get good gear then why would you care if others raided for better PvE equip.That being said , I will play GW2 regardless if it has raids or not.While I do like raiding.I don't have time to raid on a regular basis as I once did.So its not such a big deal.But I do like massive group play.I am old school.
P.S. When MMORPG's were in its hay day , and the hand full of games were all pretty successful.Raiders were the majority.Alot of us older players remember that.I do like that they give you an option in alot of games today. But forcing a more casual feeling gameplay experience is no better than forcing a raiding environment on you.
Comments
Most people here aren't really hating on raiding. Heck, I experienced quite a bit of raiding, for the 1st time in Rift recently. But the thing about raiding is that it goes directly against ANet's design decisions for the game (like how they don't want people waiting around to have fun). But really I just can't see raiding working due to the lack of the strict trinity roles that define most MMOs.
Just think about it... Without tanks or healers, can you imagine GW2 having extremely difficult raid encounters like this, without being able to effectively co-ordinate combat tactics? Not as if you can keep track of what 20 other players are doing.
How can there be a large population of raiders if the game won't have raids? That's the first thing, the second one is: do you know most of the raiders hate raiding? (I'm one of them).
Your view of a "true" mmorpg is probably WOW and anything different/better from wow is a trash. So why are you even bothering with this post? Either study the game a bit more or go back to the basics of what MMORPG actually is so you don't get laughed at with similar posts.
P.S. ANet is a company which communicates with players and it's community more than any other game company out there... So if ppl will really want something they'll find a way to implement it in to the game so it'll be fun, different and better from anything we've ever played... Atleast that's what they're trying to do in 1st place with this game...
"Happiness is not a destination. It is a method of life."
-------------------------------
No, it depends on the DE. Some of the smaller ones might only scale up to say 10 people taking part. It would just get too chaotic for an unlimited number of mobs to be spawning in a small area.
Remember there's no set path through the zone so people are going to spread out and explore. It won't be like WoW where in the new expansion you've got 50 people killing the same mobs and respawning them before you can loot the corpse or all standing around waiting for that quest boss to respawn. (Anybody else ever make a /target Mobname /cast Earth Shock macro and mash it while waiting?)
So what happens if there are 20 people there? People who don't have enough to do because the event won't scale just get bored and wander off? I don't see that being a good idea.
I've honestly never considered the possibility of too many players at a smaller event at one time. It never occurred to me, I don't know why. But I've never heard anything from Anet on it, or I glossed over it. Do you know this, or are you guessing?
And yes, I have done similar macros.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
WTF? No subscription fee?
There's nothing wrong with Raiding how it was originally intended.
Massive scale battles against open world bosses, mobs or even dungeons that offer that type of content.
The negatives are having lock out timers, requiring guilds to schedule runs to clear this stuff weekly because all the best shit is rewarded through this content. How exclusive Raiding has become when it was originally intended as a more social community based mechanic much like Dev run server events.
I'm currently playing RiFT and two of the ways it implements raid type content is though raid rifts and zone invasions.
Both can be joined casually and enjoyed by everyone without running a damn schedule.
Sadly the Awesome gear in Rift is held within the progression raids and those make RIFT turn into a second job.
Playing: Nothing
Looking forward to: Nothing
From the wiki: Most events scale for up to 10 players; participation, not level, is the determinant for event scaling.[5][6] Special large group events, such as the Shatterer fight, scale for up to 100 players.[7]
Here is one of the attributions it's referencing, Eric Flannum at GW2Guru: Even when we have one of our company "all-calls" and play the game with 200+ people jumping into the same starting area at the exact same time we have found that it is rare to have more than 10 people at the same event as people spread out very quickly and start to do different things. We've also found that unless the encounter is built for it, more than 10 people starts to become more confusing and less fun for players. Events that are designed for more people like the Shatterer are designed to last longer and draw more attention to themselves so that they draw more players to them.
All of that being said, it is possible for us to change these numbers around and we have certainly done so in the past and will continue to do so in the future as we gather data and see how people play (especially once we go to beta). But for now, 10 is the number that works for the game.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
Yea I can, it just won't be the same kind of difficulty. GW2 focus on on-the-spot tactics, like CC and movement prevention (Guardian for example), since bosses aren't attracted to the tank (or anyone player) you tend to get bosses that moves between players, thats where the tactics come in, you need to constantly judge the battle and use different skills and weapons.
It is a different kind of tactics and playstyle, some may like it, some may not.
How much WoW could a WoWhater hate, if a WoWhater could hate WoW?
As much WoW as a WoWhater would, if a WoWhater could hate WoW.
B2P is still under F2P same like humans and dolphins are still mammals
I'm sorry, I have to say that didn't look like a particularly difficult raid encounter. I mean no disrespect, but if you're only getting into raids in Rift, and this is your standard of extremely difficult, you might not be familiar with complex tasks raids are capable of performing.
Combat tactics can be coordinated in GW2, what it requires is planning ahead of time. The game might actually become a lot like a holy trinity game if people are truly dedicated on determining the best tactics. Back in the EQ days, clerics had a complete heal spell with a 10 second cast. You could have 5 clerics each with macros saying "Casting complete heal, NextPersonName in 2 seconds", and then that person would know to cast so you'd have a complete heal hitting the tank every 2 seconds.
I can see something very similar happening in GW2. You could have a few people spec'ed as tanks, who know who is next to rotate in when the first tank is in trouble. You could have a bunch of people spec'ed as support who would know to rotate their AOE heals in that area. You could have DPS doing the same thing with fire walls and poison clouds for extra damage. Heck, you could have a buddy system (or a chain) for reviving so if someone goes down everyone knows exactly who needs to break off and revive that person.
Even in the 5 man descriptions we've heard so far we've heard people need to get their tactics down as far as everyone having an AOE option on their bar to deal with swarms and whatnot. Even in 5 mans, it's not going to be as improvised as people just deciding to jump in or switch to healing. If instanced raiding became a thing in GW2, I bet there's guilds who could come up with precision tactics that would blow our minds.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
Agree with the rest of your post though.
B2P is still under F2P same like humans and dolphins are still mammals
That makes no sense, B2P is its own separate model. It has been around for ages. Since the days of the old Atari consoles.
BOOYAKA!
Players of any game will sooner or later find out some good and some less good tactics. I am sure we will see odd tactics, like 5 rangers with barrage and certain pets doing dungeons together, as well as certain kind of semi tanking.
All systems have things players can exploit and players are good on finding stuff like that.
But as long as there is multiple solutions and I can group with my friends no matter what class they played and still do dungeons with them is it fine enough for me.
That a certain group with a certain tactics would make things easier for us is fine, as long as it isn't impossible with certain combos, just harder.
B2P requires a $60 upfront cost. It's clearly not free to play. If you want to say it's got no subscription, that's fine.
F2P has all sorts of negative connotations. Even in cases where it's not P2W, it's probably very difficult to find a game that doesn't hold you back in some way in order to convince you to pay for something. At the very least there's a constant reminder of the cash shop.
B2P doesn't hold you back, it gives you everything you need to play the game.
I'm asking you to not make the argument that GW2 is F2P. At the very least you're forcing someone else to clarify later, or potentially turning off someone to the game entirely.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
Depends on various factors. Pandering to the 733t raider kiddies is hardly limited to Blizzard, and Ghostcrawler. The fact is, its relatively cheap end game content to turn out. I'd say it depends on what size their stable population turns out to be, after the typical spike, decline.
That will help determine what size their live team turns out to be. If they have more team resources, it will be easier to stay away from raider content. But never forget that NCsoft ONLY cares about the bottom line. If some NCsoft suits think they can make more money (or spend less...) by using raider content, then there will be great pressure to produce that.
Agreed. Most computer games are really B2P, online or not. Soon he will say that Modern warfare 2 is F2P as well...
F2P is very common in social medieas, like Facebook games. You don't pay to download the game but either it sells something in game to you, shows commercials or is included with a product, like a music CD.
P2P is kinda a abnormality in computer games, MMOs have really been the only type with that model.
Yeah, but quests are a lot easier to make than Dynamic events as well.
ANET and NC soft for that matter knows that it is an advantage to own a game with a different endgame than the rest. If you like raiding is it likelier that NC soft will try to get you pick up Aion or Lineage 2 instead of messing up their own games.
It is not an advantage to sell a dozen identical games.
I don' t mind if GW2 does or does not have raiding.
If raiding is present, as long as there are alternatives to obtaining quality gear I'm all good.
What I object to is end game designed around the common raid model where a player has to fight their way through a level of raid content (many, many times) and the rinse and repeat once they achieve that goal.
Raiding should be there for fun and entertainment, and perhaps some cosmetics rewards but overall all it should be designed as the "ultimate" content that is permanently out of reach for the average player.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
that is true
whats good loke feeling like a dancing jawa today 
. ^^
.....
GW2 does not need raids...
Imagine a top level open world dungeon that works like a public (or several) events.....
Tough i wouldn't be surprised if they made instanced dungeons scale with the same scaling systems they use for Public events, to create bigger challenges for multiple groups at top level. They allready have the tools, and they can easilly create more and better content. But i highly doubt that they will ever make this kind of content a requirement for top level gear.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Actually that example I gave was for the 1st raid guilds usually attempt (Greenscales Blight). Other raids are far much harder and to my knowledge, the newly released Hammerknell has yet to be completed by anyone. Well that was a week & a half ago, so maybe it's been completed.
Anyway, I can easily imagine how GW2's combat will be in the super hard explorable dungeons. 5 players performing on-the-fly combat tactics, after spending sometime improving & fine-tuning their group synergy. However I just can't picture the same in a 20+ group raid.
its buy to play :P. its not like they going to hand you the game in the store then you have it free to play.
.....
Having a 'Raid' as in a wow style raid is really pointless and HAMPERS gaming experience in GW2.. well you have to first ask yourself what is a raid and why is it there in the first place. well Raids are larger groups compared to parties and have maybe 20-25 ppl or more max ive heard is 32 people. Raids are used to play content that is challenging and is considered hard for a normal party to do. It can be from a tough boss to a sort of Dungeon...whatever. its basically tough content meant to challenge a large group of people.
In GW2 there are gonna be quite a few Dynamic events requiring more than 50+ ppl and end of event bosses that can scale upto 100 people like "The Shatterer" (which is ONLY a mid lvl boss). Now you can have raids of 20 something ppl, but what good is it, in such a situation. you can have 5 raids even but in such a case you gonna find a situation where people are gonna be so much more busy trying to form a raid.
Plus GW2 game mechanics provides a better system without the formation of raids. No holy trinity... so no need of dedicated healers or tanks, anyone can help do any role, everyone can ressuruct dead/fallen players. Also everyone has self heals and the group heals are not party based or number of player based. they can help heal anyone in radius of the skill. Add in cross profession combos. So some one uses a ground focused aoe heal and if people stand in it and fight or shoot arrows, bullets etc it will help heal everyone in its path... for the first time people have to react not based on reducing hp bars but on the situation. it provides for more 'on the fly' decisions and helps to make combat in general more dynamic.
Also why do people raid in current mmos? the answer is for Epic/Legendary gear. it isnt to enjoy the content but to seek the reward. isnt that kinda bland/boring really? People should play a game to enjoy the content/Experience the game has to offer. The reward should be like the cherry on top of the cake not the whole point of playing. But i dont blame anyone for thinking of it in such a way, its the current state of the industry. Also think of the problems of forming raid parties- not everyone can be accomodated, someone can really mess up the whole raid, people can ninja loot, it so schedule based that can be a big problem when dealing with people around the globe. But in GW2 "YOU DONT HAVE TO BE IN THE SAME GROUP TO WORK TOGETHER" you can just be 30 random people fighting of the bandits or killing that stone elemental boss or taking down the enemy guard tower. The "Experience you have", my friends is more great than just doing something for "Rewards". So when you do large group events or even 5 man explorable dungeons, you're not going to bother abt loot, chance to participate, etc ; but your gonna be excited to see something new and different and try to do something to help.
So in Essence its bigger than a raid but without ever being hindered or bothered by the limitations of raids. I would compare doing a weekly raids like watching one movie over and over and over again. For a change why not do something new
Thanks for the response. I'll need to look into the game more, as all I seem to hear is that it's end game is mainly PvP. I really liked the developer videos I've seen but I haven't really seen them address end game.
It all depends on the rewards. I quit WOW because I don't want to make a schedule to play a game if I want the best rewards. As long as GW2 never adopts that model then having raids is fine. It should be about providing options for advancing your character and focusing on teh most popular ones for new content.
@ Master
So you think dungeons won't ed up the same way? People will adapt to raiding just the same as they will to dungeons. Also, you can randomize it if people begin fighting, and make it into a 5 man raid thing. Your goin to have to wait for anything you do, whether it be dugneons, pvp, raids, minigames, etc. People just need to get used to it.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/innovation
Do not want 40 people to split the loot with, or to have to join a guild with that many people. If you want to feel surrounded by lots of people doing one thing, do WvW or dynamic events. I thought they were trying to get away from this stuff.
It would be kind of pointless anyways for structured pvp since they said you get the best armor given to you, probably like pvp characters in GW1 but no unlocking.
I don't get why it would be bad to have raiding in GW2.I mean if you don't like it, then don't do it.If you have all the tools u need to play the game at the level in which you want to play it.Then why does it matter to you if people who want to spend more time and effort raiding to get a item and sense of accomplishment from it? I mean if you don't care for raiding , and are able to get good gear then why would you care if others raided for better PvE equip.That being said , I will play GW2 regardless if it has raids or not.While I do like raiding.I don't have time to raid on a regular basis as I once did.So its not such a big deal.But I do like massive group play.I am old school.
P.S. When MMORPG's were in its hay day , and the hand full of games were all pretty successful.Raiders were the majority.Alot of us older players remember that.I do like that they give you an option in alot of games today. But forcing a more casual feeling gameplay experience is no better than forcing a raiding environment on you.