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Permadeath vs Lengthy Time-outs & Player Imprisonment
AccountDeleted12341
Member Posts: 351
The Game: RvR, with primary objectives to conquer territory. Most of the world can be taken over. No FFA PvP, but Battlegrounds upon declaring war on a zone. Group combat. Slower-to-die combat. Players have 5 "lives" composed of 100% hp, and upon losing 100% hp, they get "wounded" until death. A single attack cannot do more than 1 wound (20% total health, 100% of that wound levels health). NPC's are in armies in every battlefield, and a "hero" player is as powerful as a full group of NPC's (who have 1 wound level, not 5).
The Concept: Players have multiple characters: Their main, their secondary, and "the rest"
Death Penalty 1: Permadeath. Slow to die, hard to die, but death gives a 10% chance of permadeath.
Death Penalty 2: No permadeath. Instead, when players are wounded they cannot be healed until the battlefield is long since over. Upon death, players are imprisoned and must rescue their character, wait day(s), or pay a handsome ransom. Upon wounding, players either switch characters or go off to a process of healing which requires a NPC or Player healer, which is "just enough" of a time-out to miss a good amount of (if not all) the battle.
PvP Choices: Players can either play their hero character (1 of 5) OR save them and instead play as a weak NPC (which can die over and over). This means a player can save their hero at full health until near the end of battle, or if losing or about to siege, and then swapped them out and dive in to reinforce their wounded allies with healthy power.
Which would you prefer?
Death Penalty 1: 10% chance of Permadeath upon death with faster progression
Death Penalty 2: Slow progression, but NO permadeath and only time-outs or heavy stat/xp loss upon death.
Is permadeath a valid feature, when you could instead have heavy wounds, stat/xp loss, or even imprisonment? Why have permadeath at all if these other methods are good to achieve the same objective? Or are they?
Comments
There are actually good reasons for eg Perma-Death. Except implementation is a real concern eg if you get cut-off network midgame and that needs to be taken into consideration, perhaps even some form of Player Appeal Process eg as you'd find HR providing for employees in companies. So that might be one solution built into the game, oc final decisions left to the dev, cs team?
However ignoring that sticky problem for a moment, PD works:
1. The player requires care when playing in a dangerous world.
2. The player builds up a true bond to their char the longer they survive and even prosper
3. Old players = good players
So as long as the PD actually allows the above or enables the above instead of punishing the player to repeat their gameplay then it's a good design idea imo. However trying to find that balance is tricky... to avoid repetitive gameplay and more so if there is FFA PvP and the capricious behavior of other players needs factoring.
One solution I've thought of is:
PERMA-DEATH + KARMA + REINCARNATION:
You start human with limits and work away at those things you can do. If you die cheaply you descend a level and become a higher mammal eg a dog or something and have new goals. Again if you get caught by the butcher & killed (!) you'll be turned into a lizard etc. and so on to an insect where the journey back is longer but colorful...
On the other hand you can become a great human going upwards if you survive long enough and more options open up to you... perhaps for the 1/1,000th player the developer can grant angelic powers or something and your new goals are aiding others or something in some indirect way or setting them quests or getting them to aid you in some heavenly battle of the gods and demons... etc. ; )
It allows the player to accept perma-death and work with it and avoid repetition and allow true consequences and dimensions to the game world.
How to implement would be an interesting challenge. Afterall Purgatory or Reincarnation are a form of imprisonement but a more game-worthy one?!
The player has their cake and eats it.
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
While I can respect this "thrill" is something some people need, I would not play a MMO with either. I want relaxation or fun at my own pace and time, and not be imprisoned and unable to play or permadead either. RL is tough enough for me.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
This (especially penalty 2) sounds like a mechanic for DotA/LoL/HoN more than an MMORPG. I'm envisioning a giant game of LoL on a larger and slower scale. I wouldn't play a game like this in MMO form.
Consequences should place sanctions on gameplay, not stop gameplay altogether.
Permadeath isn't for games that are long term.
<Welcome to my world>
Consequences, especially on gameplay, can't exist in an MMO. Put the character in jail? Toss them into the stockades? The player logs onto an alt and continues playing. Take all their gear and money? They will continue playing 'naked' running around with unarmed combat skills maxed out. Even if you lock the account, that player will switch to a secondary account and continue with another character. If the company elicits an ultimate penalty, like blocking their IP, the player will go to another game (after posting a scathing diatribe out how company X unfairly banned him on forums like this), and the company may lose a paying customer (bad business).
Permadeath, especially in a PvP environment, will simply ensure that the game will be populated with a lot of low-level, unarmed characters running loose trying to murder each other. Or a lost revenue source for the MMO developer.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
I currently vote 2. However, I can marginally vote 2 with some changes.
You should NEVER remove the player from being able to play the game. Its bad design. However if your RVR game contains other things to do BESIDES RVR (i.e. levelling, crafting, supply runs, battlefield support, etc.) then you could change your 2nd death penalty to simply remove the players ability to join the combat for a period of time without removing their ability to play or support. I would then support that option.
So long, and thanks for all the fish!
if you are gonna add permadeath in a game, make damn sure it isnt based on RNG....
That too.
I agree.
It could be as simple as you must teleport to the battlefield, and you can only teleport so many times a day.
When you die, you're instantly returned to your home base.
Exactly! People are not going to pay to play your game and then have you penalize them with not being able to play. They will simply vote with their wallet elsewhere.
Power to the Sheeple
Permadeath is a viable feature in P&P games and even in lan RPGs. It isn't one huge MMOs on the net, too much technical issues for that.
A perma death MMO would get 10 zillions requests to revive peoples characters for different reasons.
Maybe in a time when the internet, the powerlines and the PCs never go down but we aren't close to that time yet.
What if people play a family, not a character. You have a stable of alts in training and slowly develop an infrastructure of trainers and legacies that improve the speed at which your alts train, but each individual character that goes out into the world is subject to permadeath.
You got that in the game "Die Gilde" (the guild). I still don't like when my characters die tough.
To my knowlage permadeath has never happened in a modern mmo has it ? I have my doubts it will ever happen.
I actually quite like the idea I have no idea if it would work in practice or whether it would so unpopular it would never be comerically viable .
The only way permadeath will happen in a mmo is in the case of a MINION MMO.
Currently there are no Minion MMO's.
In the event of the creation of a good Minion MMO where the players avatar controls other avatars I can see permadeath on some scale working for the lesser avatars. This sort of game is still technology wise a few years out yet though I think.
Example = a NFL MMO where you control an entire team and gradually lose old players to injury and retirement.
or
Examle2 = A Summoner Vrs Summoner MMO where you level up your summoned monsters in some other area like a proving ground, but in the actual arena of the pvp game, leveled summoned creatures are subject to possible permanent destruction. Not your main toon.
I don't really see it working any other way.
Have a sense of humor, no need to get ALL MODDY !
A Simpson's quote shouldn't be worth a warning. You are lucky anyone is bothering to read this rag.
If you feel like rolling teh dice... go for it!
Plus there are issues of disconnects, server lags, etc. Also deaths in a group where it is perceived to be one person's fault. These type of issues could be a nightmare.
Then it's not perma death. It's just perma rename your character.
Not interested in either. They both waste my time with non-gameplay and unnecessary timesinks.
I play games to be entertained. Non-gameplay and unneeded timesinks aren't entertainment.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Did you ever play X-COM? That's the setup I have in mind. There is variation between characters in their starting stats/aptitudes, but you can build up training facilities so that you don't have to take raw undeveloped characters out into the field.
It's different from "restart as if you were opening a new account" permadeath, but it creates a sense of attachment that avoids creating emotional break points where players are likely to feel inclined to quit the game rather than restart.
What's the difference between necessary and unnecessary timesinks?
(I don't disagree with timesinks feeling like a pointless obstacle, but I find it interesting that you felt a need to qualify the word timesink and am curious in reading more about what sorts of timesinks you think make good features of a game - it feels like that would be a useful point to focus the discussion on)
With the roster example the Perma is very viable even for me that dont play permadeath games, i playd xcom/syndicate witch had that feature and that was never problem.
I have never playd a permadeath game like Diablo2 where you lost everything on death and had to start from scracth, it would be even better if that game didt start slow as most rpg games does. I must say i hate the start of almost all rpg games until you start aquire some skills after that most of em are fun. But this is more personal issue so i might be pretty much alone on that subject.
I would not be jumping up and down to enter such a game, but nor would it hinder me.
I would never play a game with any form of permadeath in it. I play games to have fun. Dying is not fun. I don't want any long timesinks either. Dying shouldn't keep you out of the game for more than a minurte or two at most, then you're back at full strength and back to having fun.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Apparently some people didn't even bother reading the OP, and just saw the word "permadeath" and posted "Doesn't work." I didn't create this thread to be a copy of every other permadeath thread which simply says "Permadeath? Yes!" to receive the typical "Permadeath? No."
Key features such as the roster of characters (playing only 1 of 5), the option of there NOT being permadeath (very few replied to option #2) and other features which I may have not mentioned.
If you have a roster of characters, then obviously there are some forms of permanent progression. Especially if these 5 characters are combative only, and all non-combat character(s) is unable to die.
Also, I saw only one person reply to the idea of permadeath with faster progression, which I DID mention. Instead of talking about faster progression, all I see are posts saying "Permadeath in a WoW MMO where I can lose months or years of progress? No way, Never!"
Perhaps it's my fault for using the word "Permadeath" which is like a red flag in a valley of Bulls, but very few people replied to why it was a good or bad idea in relation to the mechanics CONNECTED TO permadeath or imprisonment.
A prime example is how one poster said "Taking a player out of gameplay is a bad idea!" Yet it was quite clear this does not happen. Upon wounding or death, a player picks another of his 5 roster of characters-- or if they don't want to risk, plays a weaker minion.
I'm disappointed with how over half the replies didn't even address imprisonment, and just seemed to read the title's first word, and simply closed their mind, failing to even comprehend anything beyond that first word (let alone read the OP).
Why some people even reply, when they only do so to say "No, I am closed minded. Never." is far beyond me... similar to a political enemy walking into a rally full of their opponents, only to whisper amongst many voices "I disagree, and will NEVER change my mind!" and then promptly run away giggling.
To all who disagreed with reason and disagreed with the underlying mechanics, I thank you for taking the time to use your brain and read the OP. I don't care if anyone agrees or disagrees, but I mutually respect those who do more than merely sneak into a thread to poop on it.
If I were to toss my hat in the ring for either of these ideas, it would be the second one with Robert's changes. IMO, though, there are far better ways to add consequence to action or risk to a situation than deleting or locking down a character.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre