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(Themepark) Level Down Scaling for High Level players in lower level contents is a great feature for
MMOExposed
Member RarePosts: 7,400
I dont understand the hatred for level scaling feature for MMORPG with Level advancement.
Yes I understand the purpose of "Levels" to guide players from contents--to--contents, and restrict players from jumping pass certain contents.
Levels should restrict lower level players from entering higher level zone contents,,, but it shouldnt limit High Level players from returning to older low level contents.
the higher the level the player gets, the more contents they gain, while losing contents at the same rate.
Why isnt there more support for Level scaling in games with Leveling, such as WoW,Rift,Warhammer?
Why does the commuinty hate this idea so much in those games?
GW2 is doing something similar. I hope other themepark MMO take this idea for use.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Comments
This was one of the best features of EQ2. More games should definitely have it if appropriate.
I should be able to go anywhere i want letting my skill as a player decide if i should be there or not. and if the mobs are just way to hard for me then i will figure out on my own that i need to kill easyer mobs and gain a few levels before going back.
Personally, I don't like the idea of the world (or parts) changing based on levels. It's not one world when you do that. And this is a huge part of why I don't like levels as they are. Not just the grind and the directed game play through connect-the-levels, but the "unrealistic" disjointing of the game world.
I can understand your point if you like the level systems of the WoW Clones. I think this would be a good idea for you and players like you. But it's not what I want. I think the game can be more exciting if they remove this play to level style, and then you don't need to do anything like you are talking about for the dungeons, you don't need to zone the content.
Once upon a time....
This is pretty much my thougth as well.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I always wondered how GW2 dynamic events was going to keep the higher levels out of the low level dynamic events to prevent them from raking up the bounty. But then they announced that they will be scaling down higher level characters to the appropriate level for that event. I jumped for joy. This is something all mmos should do when there is potential for a higher level to ruin a lower levels fun. I found it very frustrating in Rift when a high level player or players came into the low level areas and started to close rifts. There was no challenge for those of us at the appropriate level.
FFXI
/thread
"In the immediate future, we have this one, and then weve got another one that is actually going to be so were going to have, what we want to do, is in January, what were targeting to do, this may or may not happen, so you cant hold me to it. But what were targeting to do, is have a fun anniversary to the Ilum shenanigans that happened. An alien race might invade, and they might crash into Ilum and there might be some new activities that happen on the planet." ~Gabe Amatangelo
How so?
my thoughts exactly...why a level 9 player soloed the same type of mob that just killed me at level 45 a minute ago? makes absolutly no sense...
Completely support, and really, this just highlights one of the problems that I feel exists in theme park MMORPGs:
The huge power gap.
Why is it necessary for a level 30 to be 20-30 time more powerful than a level 20? What does this contribute to the game? A feeling of advancement? You could get that from unlocking new abilities or traits.
All it does is make it so a very small percentage of the game world is open to you at any one time. You basically perpetually play the role of Goldilocks.
"I can't go to that area! The mobs are 4 levels above me! Oh no, this is no good, the mobs are all greend and grey and I'm not getting exp! Ahhh...this area is just right."
Level scaling is good because it opens the world up the "weaker" world to higher level players, but it's almost a backwards mechanic. Why not just make the power gap less drastic instead of using the band-aid solution of level scaling?
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
I agree with Amaranthar, as well. Huge disparity in levels (hell, the level system itself) creates for a very artificial and tiered world.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
In GW2, when you go do a dynamic event that's lower level than you, you'll be scaled down but still strong. So if it was a level 5 event, you'd be the equivalent of level 8. You can't grief the event by 1-shotting everything. They appreciated the joy of being able to just go in and AOE everything down to show how far you've come, but it was a sacrifice they had to make to prevent griefing.
The thing about GW2 though is that the dynamic events cycle. They're not like quests that are one and done. There might be a different event running when you go back through an area, or it might be the same one. The beauty of this system is that because it scales you down, you can repeat any content in the game and be pretty much level appropriate. It's not like you log into WoW and have a set number of daily quests you can do. Every single event in the game that is lower level than you are your daily options (or you could sidekick up if you've got a friend).
Ever be leveling up in WoW and you friend someone and then the next time you see them on you're like 20 levels higher than them? Might as well defriend them, you're never going to group again. In GW2, all you have to do is head to where that person is and you can play again no problem. Doesn't matter if you've been there before or not either.
GW2 really has the potential to be the most casual friendly and social MMO ever.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
I really dont understand what you are asking for here. Why would you go back to a lvl 20 zone to farm mobs that scaled to your level? I am in favor of having higher level mobs in lower level areas I suppose, but in a level based, quest oriented game .. what is the point of being able to fight equal level mobs in every zone? Simply because you like the pixel palette? I don't think thats a good enough reason for the resources it might take to make this happen.
If quests scaled too I guess it would make a little more sense, but even then, the themepark model just doesn't really support any of this. You are talking about a more sandbox type game .. or at least that is how it sounds to me.
What I dont understand is why they don't scale instances. If anything that makes sense .. because they are instanced, you can do something like this a lot easier and it would mean having 4-5 times the number of instances to run at endgame, instead of the same 8-10 over and over and over again.
LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already
CUZ MOST PEOPLE THAT WANNA PLAY A THEAMPARK MMO LIKE THE HANDDOLDING AND EASY MODE XP..whoa sry my caps was on lmao
This whole question is absurd. The point of an RPG is to gain more power to your character (at least in computer RPGs). The real problem is in leveling pace and overall difficulty in modern themepark MMOs; you just consume the content way too fast and without any challenge.
I look at it like this. I buy GW2 on release and start playing for a week or two and say im in my mid 20s. A friend comes over and finds out he wants to play the game as well, should i have to reroll to play with my friend? No now i can still go play with him/her and play the character that i first created.
Read my sig - linear statistical progression is terrible. It really is.
It's a lazy way to "progress" a character and "gain power" that is only still used because people are either A). not creative enough to come up with something better or
so married to the traditions that they don't realize how old and completely dated Dungeons and Dragons style RPG progression really is.
Horizontal progression, progression in difficulty that is tied to complexity/skill requirements, not stats and other such vertical progressions.
I could spit out a half dozen alternate progression ideas without even thinking about it, and I'm just an "armchair" developer.
Guild Wars 2 is really taking the right route. If they'll go far enough remains to be seen. But automatic level scaling down for PvE and up for PvP is a really, really good start.
I guess they are leaving the tired old "levels" progression in the game just to appease the dullards who can't understand the simple mathmatics of it, I truly hope it's simply a mask - a smokey cover to fool the unimaginative into thinking they are playing something that is "traditional" and thus safe and friendly (because people are scared of change.)
Let me ask you -
What is the difference between the following two characters and the encounters they face?
1. Level one character, 100 hp, deals 10 damage per hit - fighting a mob with 50 hp that deals 5 damage per hit.
2. Level 10 character, 1000hp, deals 100 damage per hit - fighting a mob with 500 hp that deals 50 damage per hit.
Answer?
NOTHING.
All levels and linear statistical progression do is try to make people "feel" powerful by turning them into bullies that are capable of picking on the weak that used to give them a fair fight. Does it really make you feel powerful to go back to a low level area/zone as a high level and one shot everything?
Hence why no sandbox has every really taken off and worked - so many of them tie themselves to level and skill grinds. In a true sandbox, their would be no RPG progression at all.
Hence, why EQ ruined the MMO genre by putting in levels and a Dungeons and Dragons RPG progression path.
If anything modern FPS games have the best progression system that they should use in a MMO. You don't really gain much if any power from progression via new unlocks, just more options, more specializations, more customization.
Horizontal progression. Only way to ever truly make a sandbox MMO, but no one has ever tried because they are A) too uncreative and/or
too scared to break away from a crushingly abussive marriage to tradition.
UO was close because progression was so damn fast and easy, it was barely even worth mentioning.
Remove end-game, remove progression, remove leveling and raising skills and stats.... just simply... GAME.
More balanced, more fun, more access to content, no artificial curbing or limitations... freedom.
I recall a certain sandbox single player game called Elder Scrolls 4 Obivilion which had level scaling.
And it was absolutely terrible.
I hate rubber-band/level scaling game design.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
I think you misunderstanded the point, the world isn't changing. What he is talking about is downscaling the high levels. In other words when you enter a zone designed for level 10-19 as a level 45 you are scaled down to the powers of a level 20 for example, the zone stay exactly the same as before.
CoX has such sort of system where you can sidekick lower players on 2 ways: scale them up so their stats are equivalent to a character just one level below you (without the skills), or you scale down tot he same level of the lower level losing access to the powers you picked after that level. But for this to work you have to track in what order people took powers/talents and at what levels.
"If all magic fails, rely on three feet of steel and a strong arm"
Sidekicking is a band-aid to the level system so that two people of unlike levels can play together. Scaling your level 45 down to 20 when you cross into the 10-19 zone, though, kind of begs the question of why one is even bothering to level to begin with.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Same as why people level up now: to unlock the ability for higher level content and access to raids.
"If all magic fails, rely on three feet of steel and a strong arm"
The difference is that currently the intrinsic motivation and reward of progression is not automatically negatied or trivialized by perpetually scaled content.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
It also caused an exploit. If you never slept, you never leveled and you could beat the entire game at level 1.
Guild Wars scales characters UP in eye of the north... treating them as level 20. It works fine.
Scaling player down (or mobs up) interferes with farming and serves no purpose other than punishing a high level for being in a low zone.
edit; kant spel