DONT BUY ON DAY ONE WAIT FOR REVIEWS AND READ FORUMS
IF THE GAME IS GOOD THEN BUY IT IF NOT DONT, BUT WITHIN A MONTH THERE WILL BE SOME GOOD REVIEW AND SOME WILL BE AT END GAME
LET THE OTHER FOOLS BUY IT AND REVIEW IT FOR YOU AND YOU CANT LOSE MONEY
AND YES I DO HAVE TO WRITE IN CAPS TO GET THIS MESSAGE ACCROSS
Well said!
Not really, some of us like to figure out things for ourselves and NOT make all our decisions solely based on other peoples perceptions. This game could end up being the worst game ever and get horrible reviews, but I won't know that until I actually get a chance to play it. On the other hand this game could be amazing and get the best reviews ever and I still would not believe it until I tried it out.
Basically try being an adult and making up you own mind instead of being a sheep and following the shepard. They do lead some to the slaughter after all.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
They went themepark with it. Sandpark would have been better for this IP in my opinion. You'd be hitting all the SWG vets, the themeparkers that are bored of the same game being released with a different IP every year, and the ever growing market of sandbox gameplay.
I wonder if LA had something to do with the CU/NGE changes to SWG, and they think it failed because it was implemented too late. So this time around, they made sure it'd be a themepark from the ground up. The timing between these two games might explain why they were late on jumping on the WoW-clone bandwagon, but were determined to do it anyhow. Or, in other words, there was just no way the next Star Wars MMO was going to be anything but a pure themepark.
Bioware was just a good developer to choose for it, even though they had no MMO experience, because as mentioned above, they don't do any sandbox elements in their games at all.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
They went themepark with it. Sandpark would have been better for this IP in my opinion. You'd be hitting all the SWG vets, the themeparkers that are bored of the same game being released with a different IP every year, and the ever growing market of sandbox gameplay.
I wonder if LA had something to do with the CU/NGE changes to SWG, and they think it failed because it was implemented too late. So this time around, they made sure it'd be a themepark from the ground up. The timing between these two games might explain why they were late on jumping on the WoW-clone bandwagon, but were determined to do it anyhow. Or, in other words, there was just no way the next Star Wars MMO was going to be anything but a pure themepark.
Bioware was just a good developer to choose for it, even though they had no MMO experience, because as mentioned above, they don't do any sandbox elements in their games at all.
The only problem I have with your post Vhaln is that SONY has a long history of screwing up games, bad customer service, and not to mention not protecting their customers information. Blaming LA for anything SONY related is just letting them off for their mistakes. Besides, if LA was somehow involved someone credible would have come forward and said so by now and we would see it all over the internet. It would not surprise me that LA had wanted to redo the IP in a themepark and was therefore happy when BioWare approached them, but I personally won't let SONY off for their mistakes and put the blame on LA..
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
I wonder if LA had something to do with the CU/NGE changes to SWG, and they think it failed because it was implemented too late. So this time around, they made sure it'd be a themepark from the ground up. The timing between these two games might explain why they were late on jumping on the WoW-clone bandwagon, but were determined to do it anyhow. Or, in other words, there was just no way the next Star Wars MMO was going to be anything but a pure themepark.
Bioware was just a good developer to choose for it, even though they had no MMO experience, because as mentioned above, they don't do any sandbox elements in their games at all.
The only problem I have with your post Vhaln is that SONY has a long history of screwing up games, bad customer service, and not to mention not protecting their customers information. Blaming LA for anything SONY related is just letting them off for their mistakes. Besides, if LA was somehow involved someone credible would have come forward and said so by now and we would see it all over the internet. It would not surprise me that LA had wanted to redo the IP in a themepark and was therefore happy when BioWare approached them, but I personally won't let SONY off for their mistakes and put the blame on LA..
On the one hand, I'm tempted to agree.. but on the other, I've been seeing too much of a pattern with what LA has been doing with the IP over the past decade or so. It just seems suspicious to me, and I wonder if we ever really know what sort of directives developers are given, and by who, exactly - or if all that is included in some sort of non-disclosure contract. Or maybe people who are forced to do this or that just feel it'd make things worse if they came out and said as much.
Take the recent debate that was locked on the news forum here, for example. People speculate, but what if Bioware removed all doubt, by coming forward and saying, "don't blame us, LA said we had to!" I'm not sure that would go over so well.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
I wonder if LA had something to do with the CU/NGE changes to SWG, and they think it failed because it was implemented too late. So this time around, they made sure it'd be a themepark from the ground up. The timing between these two games might explain why they were late on jumping on the WoW-clone bandwagon, but were determined to do it anyhow. Or, in other words, there was just no way the next Star Wars MMO was going to be anything but a pure themepark.
Bioware was just a good developer to choose for it, even though they had no MMO experience, because as mentioned above, they don't do any sandbox elements in their games at all.
The only problem I have with your post Vhaln is that SONY has a long history of screwing up games, bad customer service, and not to mention not protecting their customers information. Blaming LA for anything SONY related is just letting them off for their mistakes. Besides, if LA was somehow involved someone credible would have come forward and said so by now and we would see it all over the internet. It would not surprise me that LA had wanted to redo the IP in a themepark and was therefore happy when BioWare approached them, but I personally won't let SONY off for their mistakes and put the blame on LA..
On the one hand, I'm tempted to agree.. but on the other, I've been seeing too much of a pattern with what LA has been doing with the IP over the past decade or so. It just seems suspicious to me, and I wonder if we ever really know what sort of directives developers are given, and by who, exactly - or if all that is included in some sort of non-disclosure contract. Or maybe people who are forced to do this or that just feel it'd make things worse if they came out and said as much.
Take the recent debate that was locked on the news forum here, for example. People speculate, but what if Bioware removed all doubt, by coming forward and saying, "don't blame us, LA said we had to!" I'm not sure that would go over so well.
You could be right, but your very own reasoning points just as strongly at SONY screwing up SWG. SONY has a very long record (pattern) of screw ups too. If I can find it though I will come back after I get some sleep and try to post a link to an interview in which someone from BioWare specifically said that LA made almost no demands on them except from a "Lore" standpoint. This make a lot of sense too, by my way of thinking, when you consider all the various "lore" sources out there. Basically they say LA trusts them to do what they are good at (making a game), while LA itself sticks to what they are good at (interpreting lore).
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
I see a lot of debate in this thread saying that EA Bioware does or does'nt make great games.
Here's the problem in todays gaming. For some strange reason, there are companies mostly all right now , who think that interactive content is a game, and that immersion tactics, mostly mimicking real life situations and experiences with animation and story is a game.
What happened is that this immersion and story has gone to far into gaming. It has completely saturated and dominated the development. This is where the hatred and trolling comes into play. Lets take Dragon Age for example, it was all story and animation, and quite frankly when it came down to the actual gameplay.. It SUCKED! But others were fascinated by the story and the twists and turns of the story.. To me, I was so sick of the twists and turns of the story, that I got to the end to slay the dam dragon and I could careless what happened... I just wanted it over....
I truly think that the masses have overwhelmed the development of all games, and true gamers are not making games anymore... And its not helping that most average gamers are not that coordinated to where sales outweigh the concern of gameplay..
However, in a MMO, you have seen over the past 3-5 years how bored you have become, no story will saev this, not even Star Wars TOR, it will overwhelm you at first, but if the combat is the same linear combat of 1 on 1 same button mashing complex to kill each and every mob.. The game will fail....
Asherons Call was a MMO classic, it was so advanced for its time as it brought into play multiple mob fights, getting attacked by 10-15 at a time, and a good equipped player could win the fight or die trieng... This art of combat was lost long ago, not sure why?!?!? It had different types of attack weaknesses for EVERY mob, such as aiming to the head, chest or feet, or using acid, or lightning, ice or fire would give mass bonuses on different type of mobs. This is where the gameplay development comes into play. This is the "game". Not the animations, not the text, not Chewbacca smiling at the camera. The devs early on said Star Wars wants to be about action, but will they deliver it? You heard about the multiple target enemies they developed, but is it just linear controlled groups based off a leveling system, or will it be tough and intricate? Only time will tell.. But since the game is Bioware, i think they will over emphasize on immersion and the story, and the gameplay will suffer...
Well thats my 2 cents of why all you people argue all the time on what games suck and what games don't. I truly think the truth is.. Too many interactive titles are being called games. when clearly they are simply interactive content.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
I see a lot of debate in this thread saying that EA Bioware does or does'nt make great games.
Here's the problem in todays gaming. For some strange reason, there are companies mostly all right now , who think that interactive content is a game, and that immersion tactics, mostly mimicking real life situations and experiences with animation and story is a game.
What happened is that this immersion and story has gone to far into gaming. It has completely saturated and dominated the development. This is where the hatred and trolling comes into play. Lets take Dragon Age for example, it was all story and animation, and quite frankly when it came down to the actual gameplay.. It SUCKED! But others were fascinated by the story and the twists and turns of the story.. To me, I was so sick of the twists and turns of the story, that I got to the end to slay the dam dragon and I could careless what happened... I just wanted it over....
I truly think that the masses have overwhelmed the development of all games, and true gamers are not making games anymore... And its not helping that most average gamers are not that coordinated to where sales outweigh the concern of gameplay..
However, in a MMO, you have seen over the past 3-5 years how bored you have become, no story will saev this, not even Star Wars TOR, it will overwhelm you at first, but if the combat is the same linear combat of 1 on 1 same button mashing complex to kill each and every mob.. The game will fail....
Asherons Call was a MMO classic, it was so advanced for its time as it brought into play multiple mob fights, getting attacked by 10-15 at a time, and a good equipped player could win the fight or die trieng... This art of combat was lost long ago, not sure why?!?!? It had different types of attack weaknesses for EVERY mob, such as aiming to the head, chest or feet, or using acid, or lightning, ice or fire would give mass bonuses on different type of mobs. This is where the gameplay development comes into play. This is the "game". Not the animations, not the text, not Chewbacca smiling at the camera. The devs early on said Star Wars wants to be about action, but will they deliver it? You heard about the multiple target enemies they developed, but is it just linear controlled groups based off a leveling system, or will it be tough and intricate? Only time will tell.. But since the game is Bioware, i think they will over emphasize on immersion and the story, and the gameplay will suffer...
Well thats my 2 cents of why all you people argue all the time on what games suck and what games don't. I truly think the truth is.. Too many interactive titles are being called games. when clearly they are simply interactive content.
Combat is not the only source of lasting appeal for everyone, nor do everyone need lasting appeal to try out a game.
Why is interactive titles not a game? What is a game? Games are whatever people play with. Fun is the key ingredient in a game. There is no pre-defining form for a game. I remember when we were small, throwing stones into a river was our game. Fun, period.
You find your fun from combats, others find their own fun factor from experiencing a story, still others from exploring a cyber land. Others from talking to each other, collecting good looking cloths or mounts. Some by showing off some feats, titles, rare loot. Some find fun from teaming up to do something, or fighting each other.
You are dismissing others' source of fun, to you immersion is not good enough, being overwhelmed, in your words is not good enough because you think that combat and only combat will have a lasting appeal. So what, why do I need a lasting appeal from a game, much like a movie, even the best movie does not have a lasting appeal, but there is no denying the fun factor from some good movies during the hours or 2 of viewing.
This thread is just another "hate clone". Where's all the innovation huh? Why doesn't this thread rollerskate backwards on rocket powered hoverskates instead of just walking forwards bipedally like all those other threads? It even uses the same font and typeface .. I mean come on that's soooooo 2003 hateration.
I'm bored with this type of thread, I want something new and exciting like I dunno, maybe dinosaurs with lasers!!1
no its not... its just not another blind love thread.
this guy has actually been paying attention to the crap bioware have been spoon feeding us and he's listed it exactly how its been shown.. hes not trying to imagine it for something it isnt hes simply seeing it as its being shown and thats what every one should be trying to do.
this guys i no!! hater.. he's just realistically seeing it for what it is. note how he hit on the rediculous wow like armour and robes.. ive been calling this a wow clone since day one. it just has a starwars skin..
i dont know what all the excitement is about. its as if you guys havnt played mmo's before. its not going to be new or fresh its just another starwars game that looks like and feels like plays like every other mmo out there and it totally doesnt deserve the hype.
this game will by no means be greater than swg was when it was first released.. if you didnt play swg when it was released or have no knowledge of swg before it was released keep your oppinions locked away. swg had and well still has more features and content than any other game out there.. to this day, not one single game can reach its level of depth and content.. sure soe kinda screwed major things up and we swg fans are aware of this and we curse them for it. but we will not deny the game its glory over all others!!
what games do you know that have lasted for 8 years ??? rune scape doesnt count, that should have been shut down along long time ago. eve online is coming close to 8 years old too and no sign of closure. infact eve is jumping from strength to strength and growing every day. usually games are in decline after there first few years. some may last 4 years before they start to flop.
reading all the love threads for swtor is like watching kids on christmas eve!! and none of them realise they aint getting what they thought they was getting. lol
John Riccitiello, Ea, then Elevation Partners then back to EA.
Johnmy boy is laughing at each and every person who Pre-Ordered or is even thinking of Subscribing to this game.
im going to try the 30 days that come with the game. just to confirm my suspicions. but i wont be buying swtor untill the price drops to what it should be in about 6 months after release.
pc games on release are way way over priced. and they wander why people make pirate copies of video games.
This thread is just another "hate clone". Where's all the innovation huh? Why doesn't this thread rollerskate backwards on rocket powered hoverskates instead of just walking forwards bipedally like all those other threads? It even uses the same font and typeface .. I mean come on that's soooooo 2003 hateration.
I'm bored with this type of thread, I want something new and exciting like I dunno, maybe dinosaurs with lasers!!1
no its not... its just not another blind love thread.
this guy has actually been paying attention to the crap bioware have been spoon feeding us and he's listed it exactly how its been shown.. hes not trying to imagine it for something it isnt hes simply seeing it as its being shown and thats what every one should be trying to do.
this guys i no!! hater.. he's just realistically seeing it for what it is. note how he hit on the rediculous wow like armour and robes.. ive been calling this a wow clone since day one. it just has a starwars skin..
i dont know what all the excitement is about. its as if you guys havnt played mmo's before. its not going to be new or fresh its just another starwars game that looks like and feels like plays like every other mmo out there and it totally doesnt deserve the hype.
this game will by no means be greater than swg was when it was first released.. if you didnt play swg when it was released or have no knowledge of swg before it was released keep your oppinions locked away. swg had and well still has more features and content than any other game out there.. to this day, not one single game can reach its level of depth and content.. sure soe kinda screwed major things up and we swg fans are aware of this and we curse them for it. but we will not deny the game its glory over all others!!
what games do you know that have lasted for 8 years ??? rune scape doesnt count, that should have been shut down along long time ago. eve online is coming close to 8 years old too and no sign of closure. infact eve is jumping from strength to strength and growing every day. usually games are in decline after there first few years. some may last 4 years before they start to flop.
reading all the love threads for swtor is like watching kids on christmas eve!! and none of them realise they aint getting what they thought they was getting. lol
I'm bitter and hate themeparks. BooHoo. Another themepark is going to come out and succeed. BooHoo. I'm mad cause no one wants to play sandboxes. BooHoo.
i dont know what all the excitement is about. its as if you guys havnt played mmo's before. its not going to be new or fresh its just another starwars game that looks like and feels like plays like every other mmo out there and it totally doesnt deserve the hype.
I've played loads of MMOs over the years, and none of them have looked, felt or played like any of the others. In fact I'd go as far as to say that MMOs, even the standard tab target/hotbar/themepark questing types have far more mechanical and gameplay variations than FPS games.
SWTOR might not be a game changer but that doesn't matter. Neither were any of the others I played but I still got a lot of enjoyment out of them.
Your mileage obviously varies and that's cool. Being angry about it won't change anything, and it certainly won't make innovative sandbox games come out any quicker.
BTW if haven't you already tried it, I'd recommend Fallen Earth. It's pretty sandboxy and is the game that felt closest to pre-CU/NGE SWG out of all the ones I've played.
Combat is not the only source of lasting appeal for everyone, nor do everyone need lasting appeal to try out a game.
Why is interactive titles not a game? What is a game? Games are whatever people play with. Fun is the key ingredient in a game. There is no pre-defining form for a game. I remember when we were small, throwing stones into a river was our game. Fun, period.
You find your fun from combats, others find their own fun factor from experiencing a story, still others from exploring a cyber land. Others from talking to each other, collecting good looking cloths or mounts. Some by showing off some feats, titles, rare loot. Some find fun from teaming up to do something, or fighting each other.
You are dismissing others' source of fun, to you immersion is not good enough, being overwhelmed, in your words is not good enough because you think that combat and only combat will have a lasting appeal. So what, why do I need a lasting appeal from a game, much like a movie, even the best movie does not have a lasting appeal, but there is no denying the fun factor from some good movies during the hours or 2 of viewing.
Well you are exactly right about the fun.. But interactive story is not THE FUN. You are interpreting joy with fun.. Games you play as a kid and still do are fun. Experiences were fun, then you do it again sometimes, and that feeling is not there, not the same as it was right? Ahh, the immersion has fooled you. Fun is exactly my point.. You see the people creating games, these animators, they sit there and make this cute little critter, and do amazing job at it.. Make it dance, and wave and be a rolly polly that you smile at.. But that is NOT fun, that is cute... They truly think that is the fun. The story acts on your emotions... It may be a game but that does not indicate good gameplay which is why people use to play games, and not the same which is exactly my point. You argue what is good or not, but you fail to realize you are enjoying the content, not the game. Game is a very vague term, there really is no true definition for it.. So why not adjust the content accordingly so we as a race, can quit bickering over nonsense? Would you be embarrased if you were a interactive content enjoyer, nstead of a competitive gamer player?
I am not saying there is not a place for story and all that, but when its all that, it is indeed not a game.. Just look at games today, they are nothing but interactive movies, including even whats suppose to be skill based, reflex, decision making, FIRST PERSON SHOOTERS... Call of Duty Black Ops Campaign, can be played without firing a single shot except in animated cut scenes where your action is dependent on hitting a button. WTH!?!?! It was enough for the developers to bring kids great graphics, immersion, and who the heck cares about gameplay to the table, they are making $50 billion doing just that. Well, unfortunately I do, because as you can see, there is no more real games anymore.. Gamers like me created this industry from the days of playing Asteroids in the arcade until now, and now we have nothing left for us anymore. NOTHING, no real reflex games of skill and competitiveness. Why? Because you can't make 50 billion dollars to satisfy 500,000 hardcore gamers, compared to the masses. Capitilism killed gaming, even your beloved MMO's and I'll tell you why.
MMORPG's have become stale, not because of lack of Lore, and story. But from repetive nonsense.. Nothing is different, kinda proving the story is pretty meaningless. I talk about the old games where there was choices to make in each combat engagement... This has been stripped out of the equation? This is what made those games great, and what is creating all the hatred in todays games is the fact, the combat for every encounter is exactly the same based on your level..
Ohh a red spider,Press hotkey one, then three, then 4, then one again cuz it cooled down, then 3, then five and whack with auto attack until dead..
Ooh a wolf, Press hotkey one, then three, then 4, then one again cuz it cooled down, then 3, then five and whack with auto attack until dead..
Ooh a goblin, Press hotkey one, then three, then 4, then one again cuz it cooled down, then 3, then five and whack with auto attack until dead..
Oh, a blue spider, Press hotkey one, then three, then 4, then one again cuz it cooled down, then 3, then five and whack with auto attack until dead..
Now why is combat like this? Can't they by now create some new intricate combat system???
Heh, the very first MMO's had much more advanced combat systems and choices... Far superior than what is being developed today.. For several reasons... And of course.... ALL OF THEM ARE BASED ON GREED.
1. development takes time and money, but so does support. By creating a very simple linear combat system, you ensure yourself no headaches in the field of level design.. In MMO's there are levels and every week, games become more linear, even though worlds becomes huger, and huger, the gameplay is being stripped down for support issues.. They have to combat hackers, and exploiters.. How to do that? linear game play and design... What use to be random generated loot, hah, all the good stuff you get is predetermined in code, so it cant be exploited.. I can go on for hours with examples but this post is a book already... but everything has been stripped down and now begins the epic tactics of immersion to sucker you out of your doh......If hanging out in a fantasy world holding a diamond carrot in one hand and and a giant bananna shoe on one foot is worth 10 bucks/m to you and a good waste of your time for smiles.. Please enjoy it, but you can't tell me the game is fun. Your just telling me you are having fun.
Because I'm not going to read through 25 pages of discussion and continue it, I'll just state my answer to the title of the post:
They went themepark with it. Sandpark would have been better for this IP in my opinion. You'd be hitting all the SWG vets, the themeparkers that are bored of the same game being released with a different IP every year, and the ever growing market of sandbox gameplay.
Yes the better way would have been to make SWTOR a sandbox, because they would still have 3 mil + pre orders.
/sarcasm off
The following statement is false The previous statement is true
Combat is not the only source of lasting appeal for everyone, nor do everyone need lasting appeal to try out a game.
Why is interactive titles not a game? What is a game? Games are whatever people play with. Fun is the key ingredient in a game. There is no pre-defining form for a game. I remember when we were small, throwing stones into a river was our game. Fun, period.
You find your fun from combats, others find their own fun factor from experiencing a story, still others from exploring a cyber land. Others from talking to each other, collecting good looking cloths or mounts. Some by showing off some feats, titles, rare loot. Some find fun from teaming up to do something, or fighting each other.
You are dismissing others' source of fun, to you immersion is not good enough, being overwhelmed, in your words is not good enough because you think that combat and only combat will have a lasting appeal. So what, why do I need a lasting appeal from a game, much like a movie, even the best movie does not have a lasting appeal, but there is no denying the fun factor from some good movies during the hours or 2 of viewing.
Well you are exactly right about the fun.. But interactive story is not THE FUN. You are interpreting joy with fun.. Games you play as a kid and still do are fun. Experiences were fun, then you do it again sometimes, and that feeling is not there, not the same as it was right? Ahh, the immersion has fooled you. Fun is exactly my point.. You see the people creating games, these animators, they sit there and make this cute little critter, and do amazing job at it.. Make it dance, and wave and be a rolly polly that you smile at.. But that is NOT fun, that is cute... They truly think that is the fun. The story acts on your emotions... It may be a game but that does not indicate good gameplay which is why people use to play games, and not the same which is exactly my point. You argue what is good or not, but you fail to realize you are enjoying the content, not the game. Game is a very vague term, there really is no true definition for it.. So why not adjust the content accordingly so we as a race, can quit bickering over nonsense? Would you be embarrased if you were a interactive content enjoyer, nstead of a competitive gamer player?
I am not saying there is not a place for story and all that, but when its all that, it is indeed not a game.. Just look at games today, they are nothing but interactive movies, including even whats suppose to be skill based, reflex, decision making, FIRST PERSON SHOOTERS... Call of Duty Black Ops Campaign, can be played without firing a single shot except in animated cut scenes where your action is dependent on hitting a button. WTH!?!?! It was enough for the developers to bring kids great graphics, immersion, and who the heck cares about gameplay to the table, they are making $50 billion doing just that. Well, unfortunately I do, because as you can see, there is no more real games anymore.. Gamers like me created this industry from the days of playing Asteroids in the arcade until now, and now we have nothing left for us anymore. NOTHING, no real reflex games of skill and competitiveness. Why? Because you can't make 50 billion dollars to satisfy 500,000 hardcore gamers, compared to the masses. Capitilism killed gaming, even your beloved MMO's and I'll tell you why.
MMORPG's have become stale, not because of lack of Lore, and story. But from repetive nonsense.. Nothing is different, kinda proving the story is pretty meaningless. I talk about the old games where there was choices to make in each combat engagement... This has been stripped out of the equation? This is what made those games great, and what is creating all the hatred in todays games is the fact, the combat for every encounter is exactly the same based on your level..
Ohh a red spider,Press hotkey one, then three, then 4, then one again cuz it cooled down, then 3, then five and whack with auto attack until dead..
Ooh a wolf, Press hotkey one, then three, then 4, then one again cuz it cooled down, then 3, then five and whack with auto attack until dead..
Ooh a goblin, Press hotkey one, then three, then 4, then one again cuz it cooled down, then 3, then five and whack with auto attack until dead..
Oh, a blue spider, Press hotkey one, then three, then 4, then one again cuz it cooled down, then 3, then five and whack with auto attack until dead..
Now why is combat like this? Can't they by now create some new intricate combat system???
Heh, the very first MMO's had much more advanced combat systems and choices... Far superior than what is being developed today.. For several reasons... And of course.... ALL OF THEM ARE BASED ON GREED.
1. development takes time and money, but so does support. By creating a very simple linear combat system, you ensure yourself no headaches in the field of level design.. In MMO's there are levels and every week, games become more linear, even though worlds becomes huger, and huger, the gameplay is being stripped down for support issues.. They have to combat hackers, and exploiters.. How to do that? linear game play and design... What use to be random generated loot, hah, all the good stuff you get is predetermined in code, so it cant be exploited.. I can go on for hours with examples but this post is a book already... but everything has been stripped down and now begins the epic tactics of immersion to sucker you out of your doh......If hanging out in a fantasy world holding a diamond carrot in one hand and and a giant bananna shoe on one foot is worth 10 bucks/m to you and a good waste of your time for smiles.. Please enjoy it, but you can't tell me the game is fun. Your just telling me you are having fun.
You are splitting hair, joy and fun, one time fun vs repeatable fun, come on, I do not care, as it is fun time not dictionary time.
Leisure hours are precious, and they are for winding down. I have absolutely no intention to perform planning about it. I play whatever helps me relax during the hours, and I do not need to worry about replayability or what.
No one can tell you what your fun is. I do not pretend I know you or your fun. I will enjoy what I enjoy, however much people belittle my fun activities. I have fun strolling the parks with all babies and toddlers of the neightborhood, once in a while. I have fun just sleeping through the summer afternoons. I have fun cooking for the sake of trying out crazy ideas.
Specifically about advanced combat as you mentioned, I find it difficult to generalise it, if you try to base it on fun. Combat systems can be compared on basis of ease to implement, ease to control cheating or exploitation, ease to code, complexity or whatever. These are technical considerations, which many gamers might not care to go into, I would not, unless it is my job assignment. Your blaming on greed is, well, irrelevant. You might as well blame it on gravity.
You said there are choices in combat in old games, and there are none now? That is a sweeping unsubstantiated personal opinion. There are many old games, there are many more new games. I see a lot of variety in the current set of games, from CoX where running jumping teleporting away is an option, to DCU and the like where you fight like an arcade game, to WoW-like breed where you have a lot of combos, which is optimised based on your choice of gear and talent (I played till a month before cata).
If all you know about combat is button a, b, c rinse for every fight, sigh. Nothing more to say. Even in WoW, where people say it is very easy, the minimax game is deep deep deep. If you need to bother yourself with it, the elitistjerks were once a place where people use differential equation to approximate the damage flow, resource (say mana) optimisation, or to employ difference modelling to show discrete burst powers (notably fire mage). The punch sequence for each scenario is compared and argued over and over. The scenarios were spiced with gear/enchant food/potion combinations, attack sequence, debuff sequence, to allow for varying tactics. The scenarios were spiced with team member choice, role and function of each during each stage of a fight. You think that is too simple for you, too bad. It is enough for me, for a game.
Modern games looks innocently easy, but some games can be deep if you care to look deep. Not that everyone need to, but if you have the inclination, some games provide enough food for thought. WoW is different now, but that does not mean it is just 1-2-4-3 wait-resume. My WoW example is just an example.
You are splitting hair, joy and fun, one time fun vs repeatable fun, come on, I do not care, as it is fun time not dictionary time.
Leisure hours are precious, and they are for winding down. I have absolutely no intention to perform planning about it. I play whatever helps me relax during the hours, and I do not need to worry about replayability or what.
No one can tell you what your fun is. I do not pretend I know you or your fun. I will enjoy what I enjoy, however much people belittle my fun activities. I have fun strolling the parks with all babies and toddlers of the neightborhood, once in a while. I have fun just sleeping through the summer afternoons. I have fun cooking for the sake of trying out crazy ideas.
Specifically about advanced combat as you mentioned, I find it difficult to generalise it, if you try to base it on fun. Combat systems can be compared on basis of ease to implement, ease to control cheating or exploitation, ease to code, complexity or whatever. These are technical considerations, which many gamers might not care to go into, I would not, unless it is my job assignment. Your blaming on greed is, well, irrelevant. You might as well blame it on gravity.
You said there are choices in combat in old games, and there are none now? That is a sweeping unsubstantiated personal opinion. There are many old games, there are many more new games. I see a lot of variety in the current set of games, from CoX where running jumping teleporting away is an option, to DCU and the like where you fight like an arcade game, to WoW-like breed where you have a lot of combos, which is optimised based on your choice of gear and talent (I played till a month before cata).
If all you know about combat is button a, b, c rinse for every fight, sigh. Nothing more to say. Even in WoW, where people say it is very easy, the minimax game is deep deep deep. If you need to bother yourself with it, the elitistjerks were once a place where people use differential equation to approximate the damage flow, resource (say mana) optimisation, or to employ difference modelling to show discrete burst powers (notably fire mage). The punch sequence for each scenario is compared and argued over and over. The scenarios were spiced with gear/enchant food/potion combinations, attack sequence, debuff sequence, to allow for varying tactics. The scenarios were spiced with team member choice, role and function of each during each stage of a fight. You think that is too simple for you, too bad. It is enough for me, for a game.
Modern games looks innocently easy, but some games can be deep if you care to look deep. Not that everyone need to, but if you have the inclination, some games provide enough food for thought. WoW is different now, but that does not mean it is just 1-2-4-3 wait-resume. My WoW example is just an example.
Yes, your reply oozes out the point across the board.. You are having fun, You are looking to have fun, you are desiring to have fun. You said it yourself, you are having fun walking thru a park full of babies and in all other kinds of different ways.. So the fact is you can portray fun out of everything means a game is fun? Seems you could have fun being trolled on the forums if you change your attitude accordingly. :-D I don't see you say you are having fun enjoying the game, I see you saying you are having fun wasting your time, because in whatever reason your mind has to do, it made up that you must be having fun...
You are passing time, thats all you care about...
Unfortunately, I don't play games to waste time. I play games to have fun, to be competitive, to challenge my thinking, to test my reflexes, to adventure into worlds where there is a sense of danger and consequence and if I fail. I remember dieing, I lost precious items, and sometimes I could go back and try to regain them, but if not they were lost foever. That made a feeling the game was FUN. Not this cheap non-sense, of gimme gimme gimme developers are feeding into the 9 year old babies on the net. I remember doing things over and over (failing wise) and when finally successful (and it may have taken days to weeks of trying) getting a reward that actually meant somehting, simply not because I showed up that day. Those were the fun old days.. Those were true immersions that make a game fun. I remember walking down a road and another gamer would be happy to make my acquaintence, and now, its SCREW YOU NOOB mentality coming out of this little punks, because the 9 year old, didnt require skill anymore, he could now solo a MMO game all by himself. And developers cater to this, cuz they might get another subscription payment off this dweeb, not realizing they are destroying their community at the same time.. But once again, gamers aint making games, SUITS are.. Quite pathetic.. Sorry I can't give a game respect where its not due, and todays games, are clearly ridiculously easy, stupid and NOT FUN.. I am not going to pretend its fun, I am not on a mission to waste time. I am on a mission to play a GAME... please feed me a game.. JUST ONE is all I ask
As for Wow, wow WAS a great game, WAS, completely destroyed by the 9 year olds, that can't gresp the game and ever learn anything, after 50,000,000,000,000,000 instances of battle, they still log in and have no clue what defeat whats, what a strategy even is... The first red dot they see initiates their attention span, and they are stuck on that..
How can I as a real gamer, go into a game like that, and play and have fun, when 99.999% of every battle instance is plagued by very bad players... But what makes matters even worse, is that they cater to these fools.. These kids can't complete the dungeons, so they define a path to them.. the path is points, to get the gear that is a free win to the next stage..
They took away the adventure from the game, the travel, the mystique of getting to your area, but portalling in from some NPC.. They make it easier to level, easier to skip this and that, easier to just get given everything and anything..
Think im going a bit off topic, but my point I guess is.. sounds like you only need an interactive title, and I want you to have that.. but please.. GIVE ME A GAME, like they use to be before they have been exploited by the masses and greed of capitilism..... Why must everything be catered to you poor worn down people that need to unwind... Why must you get all games and bubble baths too?
MMORPG's have become stale, not because of lack of Lore, and story. But from repetive nonsense.. Nothing is different, kinda proving the story is pretty meaningless. I talk about the old games where there was choices to make in each combat engagement... This has been stripped out of the equation? This is what made those games great, and what is creating all the hatred in todays games is the fact, the combat for every encounter is exactly the same based on your level..
Ohh a red spider,Press hotkey one, then three, then 4, then one again cuz it cooled down, then 3, then five and whack with auto attack until dead..
Ooh a wolf, Press hotkey one, then three, then 4, then one again cuz it cooled down, then 3, then five and whack with auto attack until dead..
Ooh a goblin, Press hotkey one, then three, then 4, then one again cuz it cooled down, then 3, then five and whack with auto attack until dead..
Oh, a blue spider, Press hotkey one, then three, then 4, then one again cuz it cooled down, then 3, then five and whack with auto attack until dead..
Now why is combat like this? Can't they by now create some new intricate combat system???
There are quite a few MMOs that don't work like this and have entirely different dynamics to their combat.
Take Age of Conan for example -- it uses a directional system where you balance the direction of your attacks against the direction of the enemy's defence, while trying to put together the best combo for that stage in the fight. It's nothing like what you describe and plays much more like a fighting game than WoW. The game didn't do too well for a lot of reasons and it is now lazily written off as a WoW clone, despite having little in common with WoW beyond tab targetting and questing.
City of Heroes/Villains also works differently. There is no auto attack, you can only queue one attack and it has an immediacy that WoW combat just doesn't have. You press a key and you kick a guy down some stairs. There is no waiting for your previous attack to finish, there is no pressing several keys and then waiting for the attacks to play out. You need to time your attacks and think ahead to make sure the attack effects you might need three attacks down the line is ready to be used. It's very realtime and, again, feels a lot like a fighting game, especially once you've got twenty or so levels under your belt. I remember new players actually complaining that the attack queue didn't work and that the combat was buggy, simply because they were trying to play it like WoW and failing to get the combat at all.
CoX is the combat system that I've hear SWTOR compared with most often by people who have played it, and this is a good thing. Of course for those who haven't played it, it's just another WoW clone combat system.
I think half the problem with MMOs is that a few of the big releases have followed the WoW way, and too many MMO players have only stuck with the ones that seem familiar with WoW rather than sticking with different combat systems long enough to learn them. And so their perception of MMO combat is that it all plays out how you describe above.
Many don't, and from the sounds of it SWTOR won't either. From what I've heard from people in the know, SWTOR has no auto attack and has a similar immediate, realtime combat system to CoX.
You're right that older MMOs had different, more involved styles of combat to WoW, but those styles haven't disappeared. They have become less popular due to the size of the WoW generation and its expectations, but there are games out there that don't work that way. When I read people writing off SWTOR as a WoW-clone I can't help wondering how many non-WoW clones they have played, because from what has emerged from the beta testers is that SWTOR doesn't play that way. I can't help wondering if those people have nothing but WoW-clone combat to think of it as.
I wonder if LA had something to do with the CU/NGE changes to SWG, and they think it failed because it was implemented too late. So this time around, they made sure it'd be a themepark from the ground up. The timing between these two games might explain why they were late on jumping on the WoW-clone bandwagon, but were determined to do it anyhow. Or, in other words, there was just no way the next Star Wars MMO was going to be anything but a pure themepark.
Bioware was just a good developer to choose for it, even though they had no MMO experience, because as mentioned above, they don't do any sandbox elements in their games at all.
The only problem I have with your post Vhaln is that SONY has a long history of screwing up games, bad customer service, and not to mention not protecting their customers information. Blaming LA for anything SONY related is just letting them off for their mistakes. Besides, if LA was somehow involved someone credible would have come forward and said so by now and we would see it all over the internet. It would not surprise me that LA had wanted to redo the IP in a themepark and was therefore happy when BioWare approached them, but I personally won't let SONY off for their mistakes and put the blame on LA..
On the one hand, I'm tempted to agree.. but on the other, I've been seeing too much of a pattern with what LA has been doing with the IP over the past decade or so. It just seems suspicious to me, and I wonder if we ever really know what sort of directives developers are given, and by who, exactly - or if all that is included in some sort of non-disclosure contract. Or maybe people who are forced to do this or that just feel it'd make things worse if they came out and said as much.
Take the recent debate that was locked on the news forum here, for example. People speculate, but what if Bioware removed all doubt, by coming forward and saying, "don't blame us, LA said we had to!" I'm not sure that would go over so well.
You could be right, but your very own reasoning points just as strongly at SONY screwing up SWG. SONY has a very long record (pattern) of screw ups too. If I can find it though I will come back after I get some sleep and try to post a link to an interview in which someone from BioWare specifically said that LA made almost no demands on them except from a "Lore" standpoint. This make a lot of sense too, by my way of thinking, when you consider all the various "lore" sources out there. Basically they say LA trusts them to do what they are good at (making a game), while LA itself sticks to what they are good at (interpreting lore).
To put it down in a short way:
LA requested the NGE from SoE after seeing Wow success
SoE created and demoed the space station training. LA said it's iconic, epic, easier to play: do it
The two main issues are the miscommunication and the NGE implementation that was really bad, not even a half finished product. SoE took the blame but LA is also culprit for the mess.
Comments
As long as I have fun playing the game, I don't care about what they planned and whatnot.
If I don't have fun, I'lle simply move on.
See how easy that is? You should try it
.
Well said!
An honest review of SW:TOR 6/10 (Danny Wojcicki)
Not really, some of us like to figure out things for ourselves and NOT make all our decisions solely based on other peoples perceptions. This game could end up being the worst game ever and get horrible reviews, but I won't know that until I actually get a chance to play it. On the other hand this game could be amazing and get the best reviews ever and I still would not believe it until I tried it out.
Basically try being an adult and making up you own mind instead of being a sheep and following the shepard. They do lead some to the slaughter after all.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
I wonder if LA had something to do with the CU/NGE changes to SWG, and they think it failed because it was implemented too late. So this time around, they made sure it'd be a themepark from the ground up. The timing between these two games might explain why they were late on jumping on the WoW-clone bandwagon, but were determined to do it anyhow. Or, in other words, there was just no way the next Star Wars MMO was going to be anything but a pure themepark.
Bioware was just a good developer to choose for it, even though they had no MMO experience, because as mentioned above, they don't do any sandbox elements in their games at all.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
I preferred this thread when people were posting tinfoil and dinosaurs pictures. -_-
Nothing went wrong, everyone knew this game was going to be a themepark the first day it was announced.
Anyone expecting sandbox elements needs to do some research, Bioware games have never been about freedom nor did they have many gameplay features.
The only problem I have with your post Vhaln is that SONY has a long history of screwing up games, bad customer service, and not to mention not protecting their customers information. Blaming LA for anything SONY related is just letting them off for their mistakes. Besides, if LA was somehow involved someone credible would have come forward and said so by now and we would see it all over the internet. It would not surprise me that LA had wanted to redo the IP in a themepark and was therefore happy when BioWare approached them, but I personally won't let SONY off for their mistakes and put the blame on LA..
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
On the one hand, I'm tempted to agree.. but on the other, I've been seeing too much of a pattern with what LA has been doing with the IP over the past decade or so. It just seems suspicious to me, and I wonder if we ever really know what sort of directives developers are given, and by who, exactly - or if all that is included in some sort of non-disclosure contract. Or maybe people who are forced to do this or that just feel it'd make things worse if they came out and said as much.
Take the recent debate that was locked on the news forum here, for example. People speculate, but what if Bioware removed all doubt, by coming forward and saying, "don't blame us, LA said we had to!" I'm not sure that would go over so well.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
You could be right, but your very own reasoning points just as strongly at SONY screwing up SWG. SONY has a very long record (pattern) of screw ups too. If I can find it though I will come back after I get some sleep and try to post a link to an interview in which someone from BioWare specifically said that LA made almost no demands on them except from a "Lore" standpoint. This make a lot of sense too, by my way of thinking, when you consider all the various "lore" sources out there. Basically they say LA trusts them to do what they are good at (making a game), while LA itself sticks to what they are good at (interpreting lore).
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
I see a lot of debate in this thread saying that EA Bioware does or does'nt make great games.
Here's the problem in todays gaming. For some strange reason, there are companies mostly all right now , who think that interactive content is a game, and that immersion tactics, mostly mimicking real life situations and experiences with animation and story is a game.
What happened is that this immersion and story has gone to far into gaming. It has completely saturated and dominated the development. This is where the hatred and trolling comes into play. Lets take Dragon Age for example, it was all story and animation, and quite frankly when it came down to the actual gameplay.. It SUCKED! But others were fascinated by the story and the twists and turns of the story.. To me, I was so sick of the twists and turns of the story, that I got to the end to slay the dam dragon and I could careless what happened... I just wanted it over....
I truly think that the masses have overwhelmed the development of all games, and true gamers are not making games anymore... And its not helping that most average gamers are not that coordinated to where sales outweigh the concern of gameplay..
However, in a MMO, you have seen over the past 3-5 years how bored you have become, no story will saev this, not even Star Wars TOR, it will overwhelm you at first, but if the combat is the same linear combat of 1 on 1 same button mashing complex to kill each and every mob.. The game will fail....
Asherons Call was a MMO classic, it was so advanced for its time as it brought into play multiple mob fights, getting attacked by 10-15 at a time, and a good equipped player could win the fight or die trieng... This art of combat was lost long ago, not sure why?!?!? It had different types of attack weaknesses for EVERY mob, such as aiming to the head, chest or feet, or using acid, or lightning, ice or fire would give mass bonuses on different type of mobs. This is where the gameplay development comes into play. This is the "game". Not the animations, not the text, not Chewbacca smiling at the camera. The devs early on said Star Wars wants to be about action, but will they deliver it? You heard about the multiple target enemies they developed, but is it just linear controlled groups based off a leveling system, or will it be tough and intricate? Only time will tell.. But since the game is Bioware, i think they will over emphasize on immersion and the story, and the gameplay will suffer...
Well thats my 2 cents of why all you people argue all the time on what games suck and what games don't. I truly think the truth is.. Too many interactive titles are being called games. when clearly they are simply interactive content.
Regards,
Nobotters - A better gaming experience
I'm still waiting on a Dinosaur wearing a tinfoil hat.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
Combat is not the only source of lasting appeal for everyone, nor do everyone need lasting appeal to try out a game.
Why is interactive titles not a game? What is a game? Games are whatever people play with. Fun is the key ingredient in a game. There is no pre-defining form for a game. I remember when we were small, throwing stones into a river was our game. Fun, period.
You find your fun from combats, others find their own fun factor from experiencing a story, still others from exploring a cyber land. Others from talking to each other, collecting good looking cloths or mounts. Some by showing off some feats, titles, rare loot. Some find fun from teaming up to do something, or fighting each other.
You are dismissing others' source of fun, to you immersion is not good enough, being overwhelmed, in your words is not good enough because you think that combat and only combat will have a lasting appeal. So what, why do I need a lasting appeal from a game, much like a movie, even the best movie does not have a lasting appeal, but there is no denying the fun factor from some good movies during the hours or 2 of viewing.
John Riccitiello, Ea, then Elevation Partners then back to EA.
Johnmy boy is laughing at each and every person who Pre-Ordered or is even thinking of Subscribing to this game.
no its not... its just not another blind love thread.
this guy has actually been paying attention to the crap bioware have been spoon feeding us and he's listed it exactly how its been shown.. hes not trying to imagine it for something it isnt hes simply seeing it as its being shown and thats what every one should be trying to do.
this guys i no!! hater.. he's just realistically seeing it for what it is. note how he hit on the rediculous wow like armour and robes.. ive been calling this a wow clone since day one. it just has a starwars skin..
i dont know what all the excitement is about. its as if you guys havnt played mmo's before. its not going to be new or fresh its just another starwars game that looks like and feels like plays like every other mmo out there and it totally doesnt deserve the hype.
this game will by no means be greater than swg was when it was first released.. if you didnt play swg when it was released or have no knowledge of swg before it was released keep your oppinions locked away. swg had and well still has more features and content than any other game out there.. to this day, not one single game can reach its level of depth and content.. sure soe kinda screwed major things up and we swg fans are aware of this and we curse them for it. but we will not deny the game its glory over all others!!
what games do you know that have lasted for 8 years ??? rune scape doesnt count, that should have been shut down along long time ago. eve online is coming close to 8 years old too and no sign of closure. infact eve is jumping from strength to strength and growing every day. usually games are in decline after there first few years. some may last 4 years before they start to flop.
reading all the love threads for swtor is like watching kids on christmas eve!! and none of them realise they aint getting what they thought they was getting. lol
im going to try the 30 days that come with the game. just to confirm my suspicions. but i wont be buying swtor untill the price drops to what it should be in about 6 months after release.
pc games on release are way way over priced. and they wander why people make pirate copies of video games.
I'm bitter and hate themeparks. BooHoo. Another themepark is going to come out and succeed. BooHoo. I'm mad cause no one wants to play sandboxes. BooHoo.
Get over it.
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
I've played loads of MMOs over the years, and none of them have looked, felt or played like any of the others. In fact I'd go as far as to say that MMOs, even the standard tab target/hotbar/themepark questing types have far more mechanical and gameplay variations than FPS games.
SWTOR might not be a game changer but that doesn't matter. Neither were any of the others I played but I still got a lot of enjoyment out of them.
Your mileage obviously varies and that's cool. Being angry about it won't change anything, and it certainly won't make innovative sandbox games come out any quicker.
BTW if haven't you already tried it, I'd recommend Fallen Earth. It's pretty sandboxy and is the game that felt closest to pre-CU/NGE SWG out of all the ones I've played.
Well you are exactly right about the fun.. But interactive story is not THE FUN. You are interpreting joy with fun.. Games you play as a kid and still do are fun. Experiences were fun, then you do it again sometimes, and that feeling is not there, not the same as it was right? Ahh, the immersion has fooled you. Fun is exactly my point.. You see the people creating games, these animators, they sit there and make this cute little critter, and do amazing job at it.. Make it dance, and wave and be a rolly polly that you smile at.. But that is NOT fun, that is cute... They truly think that is the fun. The story acts on your emotions... It may be a game but that does not indicate good gameplay which is why people use to play games, and not the same which is exactly my point. You argue what is good or not, but you fail to realize you are enjoying the content, not the game. Game is a very vague term, there really is no true definition for it.. So why not adjust the content accordingly so we as a race, can quit bickering over nonsense? Would you be embarrased if you were a interactive content enjoyer, nstead of a competitive gamer player?
I am not saying there is not a place for story and all that, but when its all that, it is indeed not a game.. Just look at games today, they are nothing but interactive movies, including even whats suppose to be skill based, reflex, decision making, FIRST PERSON SHOOTERS... Call of Duty Black Ops Campaign, can be played without firing a single shot except in animated cut scenes where your action is dependent on hitting a button. WTH!?!?! It was enough for the developers to bring kids great graphics, immersion, and who the heck cares about gameplay to the table, they are making $50 billion doing just that. Well, unfortunately I do, because as you can see, there is no more real games anymore.. Gamers like me created this industry from the days of playing Asteroids in the arcade until now, and now we have nothing left for us anymore. NOTHING, no real reflex games of skill and competitiveness. Why? Because you can't make 50 billion dollars to satisfy 500,000 hardcore gamers, compared to the masses. Capitilism killed gaming, even your beloved MMO's and I'll tell you why.
MMORPG's have become stale, not because of lack of Lore, and story. But from repetive nonsense.. Nothing is different, kinda proving the story is pretty meaningless. I talk about the old games where there was choices to make in each combat engagement... This has been stripped out of the equation? This is what made those games great, and what is creating all the hatred in todays games is the fact, the combat for every encounter is exactly the same based on your level..
Ohh a red spider,Press hotkey one, then three, then 4, then one again cuz it cooled down, then 3, then five and whack with auto attack until dead..
Ooh a wolf, Press hotkey one, then three, then 4, then one again cuz it cooled down, then 3, then five and whack with auto attack until dead..
Ooh a goblin, Press hotkey one, then three, then 4, then one again cuz it cooled down, then 3, then five and whack with auto attack until dead..
Oh, a blue spider, Press hotkey one, then three, then 4, then one again cuz it cooled down, then 3, then five and whack with auto attack until dead..
Now why is combat like this? Can't they by now create some new intricate combat system???
Heh, the very first MMO's had much more advanced combat systems and choices... Far superior than what is being developed today.. For several reasons... And of course.... ALL OF THEM ARE BASED ON GREED.
1. development takes time and money, but so does support. By creating a very simple linear combat system, you ensure yourself no headaches in the field of level design.. In MMO's there are levels and every week, games become more linear, even though worlds becomes huger, and huger, the gameplay is being stripped down for support issues.. They have to combat hackers, and exploiters.. How to do that? linear game play and design... What use to be random generated loot, hah, all the good stuff you get is predetermined in code, so it cant be exploited.. I can go on for hours with examples but this post is a book already... but everything has been stripped down and now begins the epic tactics of immersion to sucker you out of your doh......If hanging out in a fantasy world holding a diamond carrot in one hand and and a giant bananna shoe on one foot is worth 10 bucks/m to you and a good waste of your time for smiles.. Please enjoy it, but you can't tell me the game is fun. Your just telling me you are having fun.
Regards,
Nobotters - A better gaming experience
Story happened and everything else we loved about games were forgotten.
Yes the better way would have been to make SWTOR a sandbox, because they would still have 3 mil + pre orders.
/sarcasm off
The following statement is false
The previous statement is true
You are splitting hair, joy and fun, one time fun vs repeatable fun, come on, I do not care, as it is fun time not dictionary time.
Leisure hours are precious, and they are for winding down. I have absolutely no intention to perform planning about it. I play whatever helps me relax during the hours, and I do not need to worry about replayability or what.
No one can tell you what your fun is. I do not pretend I know you or your fun. I will enjoy what I enjoy, however much people belittle my fun activities. I have fun strolling the parks with all babies and toddlers of the neightborhood, once in a while. I have fun just sleeping through the summer afternoons. I have fun cooking for the sake of trying out crazy ideas.
Specifically about advanced combat as you mentioned, I find it difficult to generalise it, if you try to base it on fun. Combat systems can be compared on basis of ease to implement, ease to control cheating or exploitation, ease to code, complexity or whatever. These are technical considerations, which many gamers might not care to go into, I would not, unless it is my job assignment. Your blaming on greed is, well, irrelevant. You might as well blame it on gravity.
You said there are choices in combat in old games, and there are none now? That is a sweeping unsubstantiated personal opinion. There are many old games, there are many more new games. I see a lot of variety in the current set of games, from CoX where running jumping teleporting away is an option, to DCU and the like where you fight like an arcade game, to WoW-like breed where you have a lot of combos, which is optimised based on your choice of gear and talent (I played till a month before cata).
If all you know about combat is button a, b, c rinse for every fight, sigh. Nothing more to say. Even in WoW, where people say it is very easy, the minimax game is deep deep deep. If you need to bother yourself with it, the elitistjerks were once a place where people use differential equation to approximate the damage flow, resource (say mana) optimisation, or to employ difference modelling to show discrete burst powers (notably fire mage). The punch sequence for each scenario is compared and argued over and over. The scenarios were spiced with gear/enchant food/potion combinations, attack sequence, debuff sequence, to allow for varying tactics. The scenarios were spiced with team member choice, role and function of each during each stage of a fight. You think that is too simple for you, too bad. It is enough for me, for a game.
Modern games looks innocently easy, but some games can be deep if you care to look deep. Not that everyone need to, but if you have the inclination, some games provide enough food for thought. WoW is different now, but that does not mean it is just 1-2-4-3 wait-resume. My WoW example is just an example.
Yes, your reply oozes out the point across the board.. You are having fun, You are looking to have fun, you are desiring to have fun. You said it yourself, you are having fun walking thru a park full of babies and in all other kinds of different ways.. So the fact is you can portray fun out of everything means a game is fun? Seems you could have fun being trolled on the forums if you change your attitude accordingly. :-D I don't see you say you are having fun enjoying the game, I see you saying you are having fun wasting your time, because in whatever reason your mind has to do, it made up that you must be having fun...
You are passing time, thats all you care about...
Unfortunately, I don't play games to waste time. I play games to have fun, to be competitive, to challenge my thinking, to test my reflexes, to adventure into worlds where there is a sense of danger and consequence and if I fail. I remember dieing, I lost precious items, and sometimes I could go back and try to regain them, but if not they were lost foever. That made a feeling the game was FUN. Not this cheap non-sense, of gimme gimme gimme developers are feeding into the 9 year old babies on the net. I remember doing things over and over (failing wise) and when finally successful (and it may have taken days to weeks of trying) getting a reward that actually meant somehting, simply not because I showed up that day. Those were the fun old days.. Those were true immersions that make a game fun. I remember walking down a road and another gamer would be happy to make my acquaintence, and now, its SCREW YOU NOOB mentality coming out of this little punks, because the 9 year old, didnt require skill anymore, he could now solo a MMO game all by himself. And developers cater to this, cuz they might get another subscription payment off this dweeb, not realizing they are destroying their community at the same time.. But once again, gamers aint making games, SUITS are.. Quite pathetic.. Sorry I can't give a game respect where its not due, and todays games, are clearly ridiculously easy, stupid and NOT FUN.. I am not going to pretend its fun, I am not on a mission to waste time. I am on a mission to play a GAME... please feed me a game.. JUST ONE is all I ask
As for Wow, wow WAS a great game, WAS, completely destroyed by the 9 year olds, that can't gresp the game and ever learn anything, after 50,000,000,000,000,000 instances of battle, they still log in and have no clue what defeat whats, what a strategy even is... The first red dot they see initiates their attention span, and they are stuck on that..
How can I as a real gamer, go into a game like that, and play and have fun, when 99.999% of every battle instance is plagued by very bad players... But what makes matters even worse, is that they cater to these fools.. These kids can't complete the dungeons, so they define a path to them.. the path is points, to get the gear that is a free win to the next stage..
They took away the adventure from the game, the travel, the mystique of getting to your area, but portalling in from some NPC.. They make it easier to level, easier to skip this and that, easier to just get given everything and anything..
Think im going a bit off topic, but my point I guess is.. sounds like you only need an interactive title, and I want you to have that.. but please.. GIVE ME A GAME, like they use to be before they have been exploited by the masses and greed of capitilism..... Why must everything be catered to you poor worn down people that need to unwind... Why must you get all games and bubble baths too?
Regards,
Nobotters - A better gaming experience
There are quite a few MMOs that don't work like this and have entirely different dynamics to their combat.
Take Age of Conan for example -- it uses a directional system where you balance the direction of your attacks against the direction of the enemy's defence, while trying to put together the best combo for that stage in the fight. It's nothing like what you describe and plays much more like a fighting game than WoW. The game didn't do too well for a lot of reasons and it is now lazily written off as a WoW clone, despite having little in common with WoW beyond tab targetting and questing.
City of Heroes/Villains also works differently. There is no auto attack, you can only queue one attack and it has an immediacy that WoW combat just doesn't have. You press a key and you kick a guy down some stairs. There is no waiting for your previous attack to finish, there is no pressing several keys and then waiting for the attacks to play out. You need to time your attacks and think ahead to make sure the attack effects you might need three attacks down the line is ready to be used. It's very realtime and, again, feels a lot like a fighting game, especially once you've got twenty or so levels under your belt. I remember new players actually complaining that the attack queue didn't work and that the combat was buggy, simply because they were trying to play it like WoW and failing to get the combat at all.
CoX is the combat system that I've hear SWTOR compared with most often by people who have played it, and this is a good thing. Of course for those who haven't played it, it's just another WoW clone combat system.
I think half the problem with MMOs is that a few of the big releases have followed the WoW way, and too many MMO players have only stuck with the ones that seem familiar with WoW rather than sticking with different combat systems long enough to learn them. And so their perception of MMO combat is that it all plays out how you describe above.
Many don't, and from the sounds of it SWTOR won't either. From what I've heard from people in the know, SWTOR has no auto attack and has a similar immediate, realtime combat system to CoX.
You're right that older MMOs had different, more involved styles of combat to WoW, but those styles haven't disappeared. They have become less popular due to the size of the WoW generation and its expectations, but there are games out there that don't work that way. When I read people writing off SWTOR as a WoW-clone I can't help wondering how many non-WoW clones they have played, because from what has emerged from the beta testers is that SWTOR doesn't play that way. I can't help wondering if those people have nothing but WoW-clone combat to think of it as.
To put it down in a short way:
LA requested the NGE from SoE after seeing Wow success
SoE created and demoed the space station training. LA said it's iconic, epic, easier to play: do it
The two main issues are the miscommunication and the NGE implementation that was really bad, not even a half finished product. SoE took the blame but LA is also culprit for the mess.