Which is a good point, though you didn't mean to make it. Why bother creating something for such a small demographic? It is a waste of money in the long run. It would be like going to the trouble of creating a system of "extreme death penalties" that people can opt out of if they want. Why go to the trouble when so few would use it?
If you're talking about just homosexual players, the demographic is relatively small, but don't a lot of a guys play female characters? I know that when I do in other Bioware games, I only choose romance options with the female NPCs. So, unless I'm alone in that, the demographic might be considerably larger.
Now, I know, the gay rights angle deserves a whole lot more outrage and all that, than the pervert straight guy angle, but still.. just saying
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
I'm with the taking sex out of the game side. In reallity if you leave it and allow same sex relationships with computer animated chars all you are going to get is children acting ignorant. Gay and lesbian people are offended because it has been brought up as an issue when really It should not be. I wont lie I tried to see how many different npc I could get to sleep with my dragon age char, and this mmo is being sold as a story based mmo. I really think it is better to go without this facet of a mmo though than to suffer the obvious stupidy children and grown children would create abusing an implementation of the feature. The games that bioware had same sex in in the passed were not MMO's.
Which is a good point, though you didn't mean to make it. Why bother creating something for such a small demographic? It is a waste of money in the long run. It would be like going to the trouble of creating a system of "extreme death penalties" that people can opt out of if they want. Why go to the trouble when so few would use it?
If you're talking about just homosexual players, the demographic is relatively small, but don't a lot of a guys play female characters? I know that when I do in other Bioware games, I only choose romance options with the female NPCs. So, unless I'm alone in that, the demographic might be considerably larger.
Now, I know, the gay rights angle deserves a whole lot more outrage and all that, than the pervert straight guy angle, but still.. just saying
I never saw a male playing a female toon to be very perverted to be honest (though only lesbian sexual encounters could be I guess). It actually makes sence. How many straight men want to watch another man's but running around a computer screen for hours at a time? You might find it interesting to know that the majority of female players play a male toon as well. Does that make them perverts?
That being said though, I don't see to many straight men (or women) complaining that they can't use their male (or even female) toons to have a homosexual relationship in this game.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
If you're talking about just homosexual players, the demographic is relatively small, but don't a lot of a guys play female characters? I know that when I do in other Bioware games, I only choose romance options with the female NPCs. So, unless I'm alone in that, the demographic might be considerably larger.
Now, I know, the gay rights angle deserves a whole lot more outrage and all that, than the pervert straight guy angle, but still.. just saying
I never saw a male playing a female toon to be very perverted to be honest (though only lesbian sexual encounters could be I guess). It actually makes sence. How many straight men want to watch another man's but running around a computer screen for hours at a time? You might find it interesting to know that the majority of female players play a male toon as well. Does that make them perverts?
That being said though, I don't see to many straight men (or women) complaining that they can't use their male (or even female) toons to have a homosexual relationship in this game.
I think that's because it's not that big of a deal, compared to what its like for someone who really is gay, feeling like the devs are taking an anti-gay stance. We may not be as likely to be upset over it, but I'm just talking about demographics, since you mentioned it. Just in terms of how many people will actually be using the same-gender romance options, I think it might actually be quite a lot.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
“It's unwise to pay too much, but it's worse to pay too little. When you pay too much, you lose a little money - that's all. When you pay too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do. The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot - it can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that you will have enough to pay for something better.”
Nothing stopping you from finding another dude or chick that's a real player and having your same sex star wars fantasy with them. It will be far more fulfilling in the long run than any robotic "relationship" you end up having with an NPC. And in every other Bioware release that's included a relationship angle, it has been completely optional. Now if BW were forcing people to go through the relationship story, that's one thing, but there's nothing to say yet that they are.
Sometimes I think people just like to find reasons to be offended and/or feel discriminated against.
It's simple, anybody that is being straight isn't contraversial and doesn't offend anyone. Not even a gay person could turn around and say: 'Oh my god, that's disgusting! How could you do that!?'
As soon as homosexuality comes in to play, things turn contraversial and people could get offended. So easiest solution is: 'Just leave it out and nobody is going to cry or moan.'
Most people here are burned out on the themepark model. So they will take any excuse to bash the game that they can. I bet you most people don't give a rat's ass about the issue one way or the other. They are just using it to put their spin on SWTOR. Just like these last three articles are more about generating hype for the site than personally held beliefs.
It's also been said "There is no such thing as bad press." So while I think Bioware wishes they were talking more about game mechanics, they are probably happy people are talking.
Wait a minute, as the OP noted, "I’d rather be worried about the unannounced “Legacy” end-game system, and the world PvP info we’ve yet to hear squat about"
so you're correct, it is EA/Bioware's fault after all since their Developer decided to discuss this same sex content issue with some folks rather than share more details on the above said topics which would be more interesting I'll grant you.
Stop being so defensive about discussions regarding SWTOR, the title doesn't need a defense attorney.
I never said it was Bioware's fault. I have no idea how you extrapolated that from my post.
It's not their fault that people nitpick about every little detail. Bioware could release one of those game guides on the game and people would still complain. For alot of people it's the only thing they are good at.
The three articles that were released attacking SWTOR from this site were done for a reason. They knew they would garner attention to the articles and the site. All three articles were pretty weak with half -assed arguments.
For instance his irresponsible comment "This “news” created a virtual sh*t-storm on the internet, with LGBT and homophobes battling in a forum version of the Thunderdome." Which is in the same vein as Bushs famous "Your either with us or your with the terrorists." So if you have any other position besides the LBGT your a homophobe.
I don't blame them for going this route. The results speak for themselves. These are the most viewed and commented posts by the writers on the site. They are also some of the weakest articles that are easily picked apart. I think it's because the writer's knew this when they wrote the posts.
You didn't realize that in presenting your argument, you basically called out Bioware who chose to discuss this subject rather than share some more along the lines of game mechanics that remain unknown, ergo the entire thread is Bioware's fault.
Look, these forums are for PVP, and the thread topics of course are going to be skewed to incite comment. Yet you always seem so surprised that they do this and decry the action. Are you sure you're at the right forums?
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I can't really care either way on the LGBT issue, though I do have an open mind on such things. I think the idea to remove this feature of the game would work out best for this tender subject, but for some, that can't excuse some intolerance on EA/BioWare's part to deny same-sex arcs in one of their games, compared to some of the others that they'd allowed it. Not trying to stoke the flame war or anything, but that's what I think on the subject.
Whichever way it ends up, I don't think I'll persue a same-sex arc. Might find a... somewhat rewarding strait one otherwise, though. I'm strait, 'nuff said. I'm not saying the option for alternatives shouldn't be available, though. It takes all kinds.
Besides, it's just a game... if you want a girlfriend, find one out there. Not in here.
It's kind of funny that anyone 18 years of age or older actually care either way, it shows immaturity if you're for or against it... you should just not care, especially virtually. GET OVER IT.
As a game that children will play I don’t think it needs to be in and that goes for homo or hetero period ;D. Now if this game was mature I wouldn't have a problem with it. I don’t want to sound like I’m coming off as an ass but I personally could care less about relationships in a game. I like to play them to have fun and forget my worries. If I want relationships with whomever I would go outside and we ALL know outside is vastly overrated.
There are so many people out there who fill threatened by other people's sexuality. Bioware/EA is caving into this fearful group.
parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.
Most people here are burned out on the themepark model. So they will take any excuse to bash the game that they can. I bet you most people don't give a rat's ass about the issue one way or the other. They are just using it to put their spin on SWTOR. Just like these last three articles are more about generating hype for the site than personally held beliefs.
It's also been said "There is no such thing as bad press." So while I think Bioware wishes they were talking more about game mechanics, they are probably happy people are talking.
Wait a minute, as the OP noted, "I’d rather be worried about the unannounced “Legacy” end-game system, and the world PvP info we’ve yet to hear squat about"
so you're correct, it is EA/Bioware's fault after all since their Developer decided to discuss this same sex content issue with some folks rather than share more details on the above said topics which would be more interesting I'll grant you.
Stop being so defensive about discussions regarding SWTOR, the title doesn't need a defense attorney.
I never said it was Bioware's fault. I have no idea how you extrapolated that from my post.
It's not their fault that people nitpick about every little detail. Bioware could release one of those game guides on the game and people would still complain. For alot of people it's the only thing they are good at.
The three articles that were released attacking SWTOR from this site were done for a reason. They knew they would garner attention to the articles and the site. All three articles were pretty weak with half -assed arguments.
For instance his irresponsible comment "This “news” created a virtual sh*t-storm on the internet, with LGBT and homophobes battling in a forum version of the Thunderdome." Which is in the same vein as Bushs famous "Your either with us or your with the terrorists." So if you have any other position besides the LBGT your a homophobe.
I don't blame them for going this route. The results speak for themselves. These are the most viewed and commented posts by the writers on the site. They are also some of the weakest articles that are easily picked apart. I think it's because the writer's knew this when they wrote the posts.
You didn't realize that in presenting your argument, you basically called out Bioware who chose to discuss this subject rather than share some more along the lines of game mechanics that remain unknown, ergo the entire thread is Bioware's fault.
Look, these forums are for PVP, and the thread topics of course are going to be skewed to incite comment. Yet you always seem so surprised that they do this and decry the action. Are you sure you're at the right forums?
Post hoc ergo propter hoc, Latin for "after this, therefore because of this," is a logical fallacy (of the questionable cause variety) that states, "Since that event followed this one, that event must have been caused by this one." It is often shortened to simply post hoc and is also sometimes referred to as false cause, coincidental correlation, or correlation not causation. It is subtly different from the fallacy cum hoc ergo propter hoc, in which the chronological ordering of a correlation is insignificant.
Post hoc is a particularly tempting error because temporal sequence appears to be integral to causality. The fallacy lies in coming to a conclusion based solely on the order of events, rather than taking into account other factors that might rule out the connection.
1. Heterosexual relationships are evolution's natural way of propogating the human species. Homosexual relationships, however, do not allow for propogation.
2. Evolution also selects against Homosexual relationships, because they cannot propogate in such a relationship.
3. As a result, Homosexuality is a recessive trait that can be seen to re-occur in the minority of people.
The question is, is Lucas Arts under the gun because they aren't showing the minority of sexual relationships? Should they also show transgender and bi-sexual relationships?
The simple reality is that you can never get away from implied heterosexual relationships in any game that offers "humans" as a race due to the fact that for the race to exist in the first place there must indeed be heterosexual propogation. Homosexuality will always be in a secondary category, because the game will have to go out of the way to explain such a thing. It's up to each game developer to conclude what they will or will not include in the game.
And let's all remember that just because homosexuality isn't in any of the quest lines doesn't mean that it isnt out there somewhere in the Starwars universe, as many of you have pointed out.
who cares about stupid relationships in a game....
i'll be playing a game & having fun not looking for a virtual date.
The answer to your question is one of the main reasons people are upset: BioWare. BioWare cares about "stupid relationships in a game," which is why they've been including them in all of their games since at least 2003. They've been including same-gender relationships in their games since 2005, with the possible exception of the Mass Effect series (which only had the female-female option).
BioWare still apparently considers romantic relationships to be important in their games, because they announced them for The Old Republic, but then they made a point of saying there would be no same-gender relationships at all for the first time in six years. Thusly, it comes across as: "We think this is an important feature, but not important enough to include it for everyone." That's why people are upset.
For those who are feeling excluded in this "romance" situation (whether male or female, gay or straight), it's the same thing as hearing: "We believe PvP is important to our game, which is why we've included it for all Caucasian avatars." Now, just replace "PvP" with "Romance" and "Caucasian" with "Heterosexual," and you have the crux of the outrage. The forum arguments we've heard supporting BioWare's decision have so far been akin to "I'm not a pvper, so I don't have a problem with this," "If you're not Caucasian and PvP is important to you, you can always roll a Caucasian alt," "PvP is optional, so you can skip it" and "Well, it costs more money to tint the avatar's skin." Obviously, if you have dark skin, none of these would be (or should be) particularly comforting arguments to you.
Now, if I put myself in the above situation, I'm not directly affected; I'm Caucasian and I hate PvP. In the current situation, I'm still not affected: I love romance, but I'm heterosexual. Does that mean I shouldn't care? For me, the answer is "no." This smacks of discrimination to me, and I contacted Origin about my pre-order today to put my money where my mouth is. I suppose the question comes down to where you draw the line. If you draw the line a little further back, that's your business, but don't kid yourself into thinking that the line doesn't exist. BioWare's previous efforts to erase said line (see: Jade Empire, Dragon Age, Dragon Age 2, and even Mass Effect 1 & 2) are why it's so shocking to be having this conversation about it now, and why it's so obvious that they've not only redrawn the line, but taken a step backwards across it.
I figured it out, they're saving same-gender relationships for the first expansion!
What about robot-sex? And interspecies? if my jedi can't stick it to R2-D2, then I'm not playing.... period.. that will totally destroy the game for me
Speaking from a gay guy's perspective, I'd have to say I don't feel this would make a or brake the game, or any other games for that matter, for me in order to enjoy it. Sure its great when I find that some companies support gay relationships, I was over the moon when I found Lionheart Studios did this for Fable series and was surprised that Microsoft went along with it. However, I don't see gay relationships, or any relationship, being a vital part of any game and I'm quite used to the fact that its more common for straight relationships to exist and that some people may not be comfortable with the idea of same sex relationships and therefor could discourage them from wanting to play. As far as I'm concerned, what can't really affect my real personal life can't really hurt me, and since this doesn't affect what goes on in my personal love life, I say let it be.
I wont play any game that has same sex marriage. I won't validate the agenda of those developers who put it in their game. I have quit one game so far for this reason. ...and not started others.
Comments
If you're talking about just homosexual players, the demographic is relatively small, but don't a lot of a guys play female characters? I know that when I do in other Bioware games, I only choose romance options with the female NPCs. So, unless I'm alone in that, the demographic might be considerably larger.
Now, I know, the gay rights angle deserves a whole lot more outrage and all that, than the pervert straight guy angle, but still.. just saying
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
I'm with the taking sex out of the game side. In reallity if you leave it and allow same sex relationships with computer animated chars all you are going to get is children acting ignorant. Gay and lesbian people are offended because it has been brought up as an issue when really It should not be. I wont lie I tried to see how many different npc I could get to sleep with my dragon age char, and this mmo is being sold as a story based mmo. I really think it is better to go without this facet of a mmo though than to suffer the obvious stupidy children and grown children would create abusing an implementation of the feature. The games that bioware had same sex in in the passed were not MMO's.
I never saw a male playing a female toon to be very perverted to be honest (though only lesbian sexual encounters could be I guess). It actually makes sence. How many straight men want to watch another man's but running around a computer screen for hours at a time? You might find it interesting to know that the majority of female players play a male toon as well. Does that make them perverts?
That being said though, I don't see to many straight men (or women) complaining that they can't use their male (or even female) toons to have a homosexual relationship in this game.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
I think that's because it's not that big of a deal, compared to what its like for someone who really is gay, feeling like the devs are taking an anti-gay stance. We may not be as likely to be upset over it, but I'm just talking about demographics, since you mentioned it. Just in terms of how many people will actually be using the same-gender romance options, I think it might actually be quite a lot.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
The horror.....the horror.
--John Ruskin
Something people are leaving out of this.
How many MMO's Let people get married despite being same sex?
Even EQ let you!!! How many years ago was that?
This is the first Ive known of to exclude same sex relationships from whatever system was in place.
Nothing stopping you from finding another dude or chick that's a real player and having your same sex star wars fantasy with them. It will be far more fulfilling in the long run than any robotic "relationship" you end up having with an NPC. And in every other Bioware release that's included a relationship angle, it has been completely optional. Now if BW were forcing people to go through the relationship story, that's one thing, but there's nothing to say yet that they are.
Sometimes I think people just like to find reasons to be offended and/or feel discriminated against.
It's simple, anybody that is being straight isn't contraversial and doesn't offend anyone. Not even a gay person could turn around and say: 'Oh my god, that's disgusting! How could you do that!?'
As soon as homosexuality comes in to play, things turn contraversial and people could get offended. So easiest solution is: 'Just leave it out and nobody is going to cry or moan.'
You didn't realize that in presenting your argument, you basically called out Bioware who chose to discuss this subject rather than share some more along the lines of game mechanics that remain unknown, ergo the entire thread is Bioware's fault.
Look, these forums are for PVP, and the thread topics of course are going to be skewed to incite comment. Yet you always seem so surprised that they do this and decry the action. Are you sure you're at the right forums?
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
who cares about stupid relationships in a game....
i'll be playing a game & having fun not looking for a virtual date.
Its a game, and I don't rp, so I wouldn't care if they didn't include hetro relationships, but made donkey lovin availible.
I can't really care either way on the LGBT issue, though I do have an open mind on such things. I think the idea to remove this feature of the game would work out best for this tender subject, but for some, that can't excuse some intolerance on EA/BioWare's part to deny same-sex arcs in one of their games, compared to some of the others that they'd allowed it. Not trying to stoke the flame war or anything, but that's what I think on the subject.
Whichever way it ends up, I don't think I'll persue a same-sex arc. Might find a... somewhat rewarding strait one otherwise, though. I'm strait, 'nuff said. I'm not saying the option for alternatives shouldn't be available, though. It takes all kinds.
Besides, it's just a game... if you want a girlfriend, find one out there. Not in here.
It's kind of funny that anyone 18 years of age or older actually care either way, it shows immaturity if you're for or against it... you should just not care, especially virtually. GET OVER IT.
As a game that children will play I don’t think it needs to be in and that goes for homo or hetero period ;D. Now if this game was mature I wouldn't have a problem with it. I don’t want to sound like I’m coming off as an ass but I personally could care less about relationships in a game. I like to play them to have fun and forget my worries. If I want relationships with whomever I would go outside and we ALL know outside is vastly overrated.
There are so many people out there who fill threatened by other people's sexuality. Bioware/EA is caving into this fearful group.
parrotpholk-Because we all know the miracle patch fairy shows up the night before release and sprinkles magic dust on the server to make it allllll better.
Post hoc ergo propter hoc, Latin for "after this, therefore because of this," is a logical fallacy (of the questionable cause variety) that states, "Since that event followed this one, that event must have been caused by this one." It is often shortened to simply post hoc and is also sometimes referred to as false cause, coincidental correlation, or correlation not causation. It is subtly different from the fallacy cum hoc ergo propter hoc, in which the chronological ordering of a correlation is insignificant.
Post hoc is a particularly tempting error because temporal sequence appears to be integral to causality. The fallacy lies in coming to a conclusion based solely on the order of events, rather than taking into account other factors that might rule out the connection.
1. Heterosexual relationships are evolution's natural way of propogating the human species. Homosexual relationships, however, do not allow for propogation.
2. Evolution also selects against Homosexual relationships, because they cannot propogate in such a relationship.
3. As a result, Homosexuality is a recessive trait that can be seen to re-occur in the minority of people.
The question is, is Lucas Arts under the gun because they aren't showing the minority of sexual relationships? Should they also show transgender and bi-sexual relationships?
The simple reality is that you can never get away from implied heterosexual relationships in any game that offers "humans" as a race due to the fact that for the race to exist in the first place there must indeed be heterosexual propogation. Homosexuality will always be in a secondary category, because the game will have to go out of the way to explain such a thing. It's up to each game developer to conclude what they will or will not include in the game.
And let's all remember that just because homosexuality isn't in any of the quest lines doesn't mean that it isnt out there somewhere in the Starwars universe, as many of you have pointed out.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
Doh, screwed up poitn 2. which should have read "homosexuality" not "heterosexuality".
Too bad you cant edit :C
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
you can edit...
hit the edit button...
With all due respect sir everything you said in your post was pure opinion.
The answer to your question is one of the main reasons people are upset: BioWare. BioWare cares about "stupid relationships in a game," which is why they've been including them in all of their games since at least 2003. They've been including same-gender relationships in their games since 2005, with the possible exception of the Mass Effect series (which only had the female-female option).
BioWare still apparently considers romantic relationships to be important in their games, because they announced them for The Old Republic, but then they made a point of saying there would be no same-gender relationships at all for the first time in six years. Thusly, it comes across as: "We think this is an important feature, but not important enough to include it for everyone." That's why people are upset.
For those who are feeling excluded in this "romance" situation (whether male or female, gay or straight), it's the same thing as hearing: "We believe PvP is important to our game, which is why we've included it for all Caucasian avatars." Now, just replace "PvP" with "Romance" and "Caucasian" with "Heterosexual," and you have the crux of the outrage. The forum arguments we've heard supporting BioWare's decision have so far been akin to "I'm not a pvper, so I don't have a problem with this," "If you're not Caucasian and PvP is important to you, you can always roll a Caucasian alt," "PvP is optional, so you can skip it" and "Well, it costs more money to tint the avatar's skin." Obviously, if you have dark skin, none of these would be (or should be) particularly comforting arguments to you.
Now, if I put myself in the above situation, I'm not directly affected; I'm Caucasian and I hate PvP. In the current situation, I'm still not affected: I love romance, but I'm heterosexual. Does that mean I shouldn't care? For me, the answer is "no." This smacks of discrimination to me, and I contacted Origin about my pre-order today to put my money where my mouth is. I suppose the question comes down to where you draw the line. If you draw the line a little further back, that's your business, but don't kid yourself into thinking that the line doesn't exist. BioWare's previous efforts to erase said line (see: Jade Empire, Dragon Age, Dragon Age 2, and even Mass Effect 1 & 2) are why it's so shocking to be having this conversation about it now, and why it's so obvious that they've not only redrawn the line, but taken a step backwards across it.
I figured it out, they're saving same-gender relationships for the first expansion!
What about robot-sex? And interspecies? if my jedi can't stick it to R2-D2, then I'm not playing.... period.. that will totally destroy the game for me
He didn't use the word "damaging", YOU did. Are you subconsciously against such relationships? What's wrong with you?
Speaking from a gay guy's perspective, I'd have to say I don't feel this would make a or brake the game, or any other games for that matter, for me in order to enjoy it. Sure its great when I find that some companies support gay relationships, I was over the moon when I found Lionheart Studios did this for Fable series and was surprised that Microsoft went along with it. However, I don't see gay relationships, or any relationship, being a vital part of any game and I'm quite used to the fact that its more common for straight relationships to exist and that some people may not be comfortable with the idea of same sex relationships and therefor could discourage them from wanting to play. As far as I'm concerned, what can't really affect my real personal life can't really hurt me, and since this doesn't affect what goes on in my personal love life, I say let it be.
I wont play any game that has same sex marriage. I won't validate the agenda of those developers who put it in their game. I have quit one game so far for this reason. ...and not started others.