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war declaration now lest PKer kill you in town.
Jakdstripper
Member RarePosts: 2,410
so finaly SV fixed the war declaration system.....:D.....or did they?
Now, if you declare war on a guild you can kill any member of that guild inside the guard zone and they can't call guards for help (much like DF). you also dont get murder counts. it seems like a good mechanic right? except that PK guilds now roll blue character, declare war on every existing guild on the server and go kill anyone that has a tag even inside guarded towns.....crafters, hunters, traders, miners, or anyone not wanting to pvp, if you have a guild tag you can be killed with impunity.
the funny part is, war declarations is as easy as clicking a button since the other guild doesn't need to accept your war declaration. you basically cannot refuse the war declaration.
so now basically, if you are not a hard core pvper, you better not be part of a guild othewise you will be faced with gank squads wanting to kill you absolutely anywere, with no safe place to run to.
wile i agree that there should be some sort of "war declaration" mechanic in this game, this does nothing but let greefers greef ANYWERE with absolute impunity. just the latest good idea completely butchered by horrendous implementation. way to keep consistent SV.
Comments
agreed, they need to change the way its working but i am glad they decided to at least focus on it.
there are 2 types of mmo, imitators and innovaters.
Yeah, I remember joining a guild in DF and then everyone wardecced with my guild just lolpwned me over and over until I could get away. Struck me as something that required a little more thought. Good luck.
Is this by design? How could they NOT see this coming,?
I win!!! LOL@U
There is no cost or maintenance to declaring a wardec? I'm just thinking in terms of the EvE implementation, but why have a guarded zone at all if the mechanic is so easily exploited? It'd seem, if there were a reasonably meaningful "tax" on decalring war and maintaining that declaration it'd at least have some form of check and balance.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
http://www.mortalonline.com/forums/66227-fix-guild-war-declaration-now-3.html#post1201907
the war decleration is explained in this linked post here, it is working as the developers intended however the communtiy will likley vote and it will be changed acording to the communities wishes.
there are 2 types of mmo, imitators and innovaters.
Interesting:
- You can now have a maximum of five (5) guild wars at the same time. When you have reached the maximum number of five wars you will not be able to challenge other guilds and other guilds wont be able to challenge you.
- Pending war challenges can no longer be accepted by any side if either one of them has five guild wars already.
- If your guild has no current war, your next war declaration will automatically succeed without leaving your opponent with the choice to reject it. (Unless the opponent already has five wars, then it will get rejected)
So, if I got a few friends together, we could all declare war on each other (assuming we all formed seperate guilds) so as to fill up the 5 declaration limit and therefore be immune to war from anyone else? Seems the mechanic can be exploited either way if that is the case. The limit of 5 though seems a little better then it initally came across.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
That us a yes to your last paragraph. Like any system in MO, Star Vault can not think 2 steps ahead. All you need to do uis have a bunch of friends dec you and you will not be decced.
I think a deccing system like EVE would of been perfect but that would be hard for SV to implement they can not code for shit.
Example.... If you kill someone in town you are decced they drop a blue loot ba. if you loot them you go grey for anyone to guard. Also if you attack someone you are decced with a pet you go grey..
I for one do not see why they put the war system in with no reason to war. There is no territory control system, no goal, no submit, no victory conditions. Like anything in MO it was put in without much thought.
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5056/5405334463_871abcda69_z.jpg
Your underestimating how hard it actually is to start a guild.
First of all you need 500 gold to build a house. Plus hours on hours worth of wood, stone and metal to build it. Keep in mind its going to take you a few hours just to build the house even if you already have all the resources for it. You then need to buy a 250g guildstone to put in that house.
If your guild has thousands and thousand of extra gold and tons of extra resources laying around, plus at least 5 "second account" accounts I can see this happening. But lets face it, most guilds would not put in the gold time and resources it takes to pull off this little exploit.
Never trust a screenshot or a youtube video without a version stamp!
What if 6 guilds want to declare war on the same guild?
This is not a completely honest description of how the system works. You can only force a war dec on one guild at a time; if you dec more guilds after that you're "challenging" them, and they can refuse that challenge.
While I think maintaining war decs should cost you, I really like this change. Consensual warfare is unheard of, and enemies having to accept your war dec is just plain ridiculous. Problem is, a lot of people and so-called "empire building" guilds got used to guardzone protection and now feel threatened when they can't safely afk grind butchery or extraction in town for easy gold anymore.
As for griefing; well... It's only griefing if you're completely defenseless. And allowing your crafters to be defenseless is your own fault. Now guilds will have to man up and defend their players more.
If someone was so conscerned about having war declared on them, I would suggest not joining a guild rather than forming up 5 different guilds with only one member in each.
Just sayin.
Work hard Play Harder
Lineage had a similar system but there the guild you declared war on had to accept.
But the whole thing makes me wonder how there can be a war inside a city while the watch just ignores the whole thing. It sounds rather stupid to me.
MO's world is harsh and according to lore, the ruling civilization has lost its control over most areas. Perhaps the lictors (i.e. NPC guards) judge tribal warfare as a normal part of the daily routine, but not random street violence?
Never underestimate players that way.
Its about me
750 gold is incredibly easy to make. if you have 2/3 people working at it you can make it in 2/3 days no sweat. it does not take "hours and hours" of wood and stone and metal either. and yes, there are guild that have many, many thousand of gold stored away. some of them even hundreds of thousand of gold.
the fact is that if there are ways to "work arround it" people will use it. if guilds get fed up with being ganked in town they will get together and use friendly guilds to use up the 5 war declaration. it is really not that hard especially with all the multi guild alliances that already exists in MO.
there absolutely needs to be a cost to declering war, and the cost has to be high enough that guilds have to think twice before doing it. there also needs to be a reward for doing it, for example being able to capture the other guild's keep, or something like that.
it also has to be proteced from being used by PKers to just greef any town they want. for example it needs a 24/48 hour wait time from when you declare war, and it last only 1 week after which you have to declare war again. otherwise PKer will just scout out a town, see what the majority of people's tags are, declare war and go kill everyone. rinse and repeat.
Yeah, that's a good point. It's been a long time since I played so obviously not covering all the scenarios. I was more thinking about how the system could be misused, but with some of the other clarifications such as the 'challenge' that can be refused it doesn't sound as bad as it initially reads. I certainly support the "never truely safe" idea and I think they came up with a reasonable approach to it. Hopefully it gets refined in a positive manner to becomes a more meaningful tool for guilds though, you have to look no further then EvE to see it will always be useful to griefers :P.
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
Yeah, that sounds realistic.. not.
In that case he NPC guards would ignore any fighting outside the town but realistically they would either take one side or assume all thta is fighting is hostile.
There are areas of the world where tribal warfare still is common, but no cop would let them kill eachother in broad daylight anyways while still bothering to take in regular criminals.
Outside the city walls is outside the guards juristictions, I can buy that. But allowing people just killing echother in town? Never.
lol I was thinking the same thing, in terms of many MMO players overall, not just MO players.
A lot of MMO players are really funny in that they'll go out of their way and put an incredible amount of effort into circumventing or even hacking or exploiting (when applicable) a game system than they'd ever come close to putting into actually playing it as intended. They'll even take some pretty serious risks with their accounts to do it.
Yet, they'll complain about the easiest tasks in the game itself as being "too tedious".
In fact, they'll sometimes use the "too tedious" argument as a justification for circumventing or exploiting in the first place. We've all seen it, "I'm not hacking by using this add-on. I'm providing functionality that should have been there at launch!", or "if the developers didn't design the game the way they did, I wouldn't be forced to hack!".
Rule number one of hacking/exploiting seems to be "Always blame the developer for forcing you to do it" and playing the victim card.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
If you want realism you should turn to real life, not play computer games. Consider this:
* Is it realistic that people have color around them (and a name, and a guild tag) identifying them as "lawful", "criminal", or "murderer"?
* Is it realistic that you nedd to kill 5 innocent people before being considered a murderer?
* Is it realistic that lictors teleport out of nowhere and insta-whack you, just because someone says "guards"?
* Is it realistic that you can be secretely criminal, but be exposed by someone pushing you?
* Is it realistic that lictors allow rampant murder 1 meter outside an invisible line, but insta-kill you as soon as you try to pilfer someone's pet receipt?
* Is it realistic that you can can forgive the guy who just killed you, making him less of a murderer in the eyes of in-game justice?
* Is it realistic that you lose your some of your physical abilitites when you die, just because you are a murderer?
Let's face it, this is a game and it has a lot of "unrealistic" features that we never see irl, because it has to be playable.
Poor Lictors. No one likes authorities though.
Its about me
Hmm well lets see FFA PVP games mean non stop griefing and ganking so does it really matter when and where it happens? These games always have dismal popluations with no one really happy with the game but devs keep making them and a handlfull of players keep playing them, I just dont understand why someone doest make a game like this without the third world tribal mentality. I imagine the first company the does it right will be extremely succesfull.
Just to correct this common, ill-informed prejudice: the fact that most ffa games today have low pop has nothing to do with them being ffa. It has to do with them being bad and unfinished.
Contrary to popular belief, a lot of people who enjoy the ffa setting, PvPers and non-PvPers alike. For example, Darkfall was a highly anticiptated game - they even had to limit the server access at launch because so many people wanted to play it. Then it failed, but not because everyone suddenly realized it was ffa, but because it was badly designed and buggy.
MO had a good pop at launch, but most of them left becaue the game was still in mid-beta phase back then. It's better now in many ways, but given the bad rep it has I doubt people will return in droves. Anyway, it wasn't ffa scared them away, it was the game's horrible state.
I just wish people who personally hate ffa games would stop behaving like they represent the common sense opinion. Believe it or not, many players want the challenge and risk only found in ffa games. PvE themeparks may be the mainstream model, but at the same time, there are quite a big niche market waiting to be filled by a good sandbox game offering a complex and challenging experience.
Let me quote a good post by one of the devs of the new indie sandbox game Embers of Caerus:
Many good points here but also many misconceptions and biases.
It quit being a knee-jerk reaction long ago.
Most FFAs do indeed revolve around non-stop griefing and ganking, intended or otherwise. PvPers willing to allow the game to devolve into that and support it as "legitimate play style" are no help. Griefing and ganking are merely virtual bullying of one player by another absent a clear understanding and mutual agreement from the beginning.
We do represent one of many common sense opinions. Ganking and griefing exist in everyday life and often come with serious consequences all around. What we want are the serious consequences lacking in all FFAs so far. Devs who prefer FFA ganking and griefing need to be far more upfront about it. They might have fewer subscriptions but they will have longer lasting customers.
So, what does full loot add (using the above list)?
1. We agree.
2. We disagree.
3. We disagree.
4. We disagree, although not totally. Too few PvP players do that to make it consequential when the game is too broken.
5. We disagree absent a large enough population to make it work within game mechanic bounds.
6. We disagree, although not totally. PvE in these games either provides so much that it leaves plenty of time for ganking and griefing or so little that ganking and griefing are more profitable. Getting it right is quite difficult.
Full loot isn't all that much of an issue as I see it. Its a combination of working game mechanics and full disclosure by the developers.
For MO: Make your promises but keep them.
For Embers: same...
Its about me
some monts ago, i were in a little guild and we declare war to other litle guild and the war worked like work now we can kill in towns, so isnt new, always be like is now.
I just cant help but disagree that full loot FFA PVP adds any real valuer to a game other than to eventually drive away most people and create internal player stagnation. I also dont believe that the only reason a Full Loot FFA PVP game has never been a hit is because no one has built a polished game around it. I think the more obvious and accepted truth is that 99% of the gaming community doesnt like it and wont deal with the griefing and trolling that these games induce. i thinik the factual data on subs speaks volumes to this.
sorry edit for typos