Overall, this idea has some merit. But, there are some issues that I can see.
Physics doesn't cover all 'magic'. Pure physics covers the four basic (alchemical) elements - fire, water, ice and air. What about the forces of life? Magicians frequently have the ability to alter another's perceptions via illusion, sensory alteration, or forced behavior (charm / fear effects). Also, how do these other magic 'forms' interact with each other? Do Charm and Fear effects support each other when cast on a single target? Can illusions interact with the physical game-world? What about pure utilitarian magic, like finding the direction to the nearest village or purifying water to drink?
Yes, I thought of this as well. "Real" physics definitely does not cover everything. But the real goal I had with this system was not so much to model magic off of real physics, but to have the environment act as an intermediary between the player's "spell" and what it effects. So that your spell would have an effect on the environment and then the environment would in turn effect other players or NPCs.
This is basically how things work in the real world, if you pull a trigger on a gun it does not "apply 500 damage" to your target, it causes an explosion which in turn causes the bullet to gain a lot of velocity etc. etc... So in order for this system to work in a game, you need a model of how the environment responds to different stimuli, i.e. physics. But the key is that you do not need to be limited at all to real physics. You can invent your own fantasy physics for fantasy concepts like "life," "void," "quicken," etc. that have no real world physics parallel.
Magic is rare. In most novels I read, wizards are scarce. There just aren't many wizards in the world. How does the game restrict mages? How will any game restrict just any random player from rolling up a wizard? For magic to be 'believable', it needs to be difficult, not just another 'weapons technology', as is seen in most of the current MMORPGs.
As for magic being rare, I don't think it necessarily needs to be. In Harry Potter magic isn't rare. There are worlds were it is rare and worlds were it isn't. It's all up to the author.
As for making it difficult, I agree it should be challenging. I think the challenge that the system I proposed could have would be to really make the wizards think about their current environmental conditions and what magical effects would be to their benefit. They could also risk harming themselves if they miscalculate something.
Magic is difficult. Again, what is the cost to the wizard to create these powerful effects? Mana pools that replenish automatically just make magic too simplistic. Does the wizard have to prepare spells in advance? Does the wizard have to spend time (in-game) collecting components or meditating to recover their mystic energies? Maybe their magic is 'dark' and they have to injure themselves or friends to gain a spark of energy. The point is that current games make magic abilities too frequent and too easy to achieve; nothing like most fantasy stories I've read.
I think the "mana system" that a game tries to use is out of the scope of the concept I proposed, but there are really plenty of things you could do that are intresting .
Magic is situational. Most every wizard appearing in a story seems to have the 'game-changer' spell at the right time. A hoard of orcs is charging, and the wizard summons the image of a dragon to scare them off. How do players reenact this level of fictional heroics on a whim? The character's (and therefore the player's) imagination determines the form the magic takes. (This is similar to Green Lantern's ring -- it is driven by thoughts). What if the player wants a demon instead of a dragon? Or a wave of flames surging against the enemy? Or an enormous bowl of caustic oatmeal? The game physics would need to allow the player to adapt the effects of magic to the situation.
Yup! I totally agree, magic should be situational, and that's what I was hoping my concept would accomplish. Not only does the environment determine how your magic effects play out, but also the actions of other wizards and the specific properties of your intended "target" would come into play as well. As for big walls of flame and things like that, it wouldn't be so easy with the concept I propose.
There would be no "wall of fire" spell. If you wanted to generate that effect you would need something to burn laid out in a straight line, and then to increase its temperature enough for ignition. Maybe you could use a life effect to cause flammable plant life to grow out of the ground and then increase the temperature of them enough to ignite...there's your firewall .
Magic has to be subordinate to and dependent on the health system. This is purely a gaming abstraction issue, not as much about literary considerations. How magic (and other special effects like disease and posion) interacts with the character's body depends a lot on how the character's health is related in game. If health is determined by the traditional HP systems, positive magical effects need to manipulate these values. If effects such as wounds, disease or posion apply penalties to actions, players will want magical ways to remove these penalties faster than a normal healing rate. The abstraction of the body's capacity to absorb punishment (including untreated recovery, treated recovery) needs to be balanced with magical recovery methods.
Yup, pretty much. But remember, under the concept I propose, magic would never directly affect a player. It would affect the environment and then the environment would have an effect on a player. I'm guessing most game would implement a health system for this with standard conditions but that doesn't have to be the case.
One example of how this would work would be if you wanted to do a knock-back or knock-down effect, you can't do it flat out. You would have to do something like "push" the air towards a player in a big burst of force to knock them down, or cause the ground to become muddy and snag their foot.
Magic is a peculiar force. Either it is rare (in most literary cases), or omnipresent (the current MMO condition). Balancing the effect and force of magic is a delicate operation, and most current games have only attempted to abstract these elements in the D&D tradition -- spells have fixed effects and fixed costs (mana and/or components) and restricttive casting (levels).
I'd love to see something along the lines you suggest, but I think the additional manpower necessary to create a non-traditional magic system will take a very dedicated and financially stable company.
Oddly enough, when I thought about trying to design a more 'magical' magic, I went with a design that didn't talk about physics at all, but dealt more with... well, magic.
It's kind of hard to read because it's real stream of consciousness stuff, unfortunately.
... but the basic idea would be to create an MMORPG design where people can literally see the world in different ways, viewing magic and manipulating it directly, things like ley lines, spirits and auras. ... though nobody can see all the various types at the same time, and some people wouldn't be able to see magic at all.
... and why be a guy ambling around in plate in a world full of magic users? Well, in my design, iron is antithetical to magic. So wearing iron makes you a horribly crappy spell caster... and able to resist magic as well. Sure, throwing fireballs and creating bridges of pure force are pretty fancy, but if that guy in plate mail keeps walking at you and threatening to bash your head in with a lump of iron, you can see the advantages of brute force.
This is one of the problems I have with current MMORPGs. Everyone views them as a "game" first and foremost.
Because that's what they are.
Things like making an intriguing virtual world or making wizards feel like wizards always take a back seat to balance and accessibility.
Again-- because they're games. What good is it to make a wizard "feel like a wizard" if the rest of the game doesn't work? At the end of the day, you can make a world interesting from a lore perspective, or offer unique environments or whatever, but if the game doesn't work or your mechanics are next to impossible to balance, you will fail.
MMORPGs, by design, are set for thousands of players to be able to play on the same server at the same time and be able to have an enjoyable experience. Fully destructible environments, realistic physics, allowing the player to change the reality of the game world, etc. -- these things work best in stand-alone single player or co-op multiplayer games. When you're talking about thousands of players in your game at the same time, you can't have all of them directly changing or impacting the world around them at large. That's a recipe for disaster and chaos.
At some point, some developer really needs to say:
"We're going to make a game where players will actually FEEL like they are living in a fantasy world. Where wizards can do fantastic magic, thieves actually steal things, and combat isn't the end all be all of your existence. We'll try to make the game as balanced as we can, but you know what? If we have to sacrifice some balance to add a really awesome feature then we'll do it."
That's a nice sentiment, but the chance of any major developer saying those things is pretty much nil. The scale and expense of developing an MMO prevents it, just by design.
I think it becomes much less of an issue with a skill based system. SImply because there are always going to be some skill builds that are UP or OP. So long as there are at least a few builds that are very viable, it's okay.
With a class based system though, you really need to make each and every class exactly balanced or people will whine like there's no tomorrow.
I don't think anyone would whine in a skill based system if their character that has nothing but crafting and healing skills got owned by someone with a pure combat build .
Also...the only reason that balance matters so much is that combat is normally the only thing to do in an MMORPG. If an MMORPG wasn't so focused on combat, balance wouldn't be such a game breaker.
This is one of the problems I have with current MMORPGs. Everyone views them as a "game" first and foremost.
Because that's what they are.
Things like making an intriguing virtual world or making wizards feel like wizards always take a back seat to balance and accessibility.
Again-- because they're games. What good is it to make a wizard "feel like a wizard" if the rest of the game doesn't work? At the end of the day, you can make a world interesting from a lore perspective, or offer unique environments or whatever, but if the game doesn't work or your mechanics are next to impossible to balance, you will fail.
MMORPGs, by design, are set for thousands of players to be able to play on the same server at the same time and be able to have an enjoyable experience. Fully destructible environments, realistic physics, allowing the player to change the reality of the game world, etc. -- these things work best in stand-alone single player or co-op multiplayer games. When you're talking about thousands of players in your game at the same time, you can't have all of them directly changing or impacting the world around them at large. That's a recipe for disaster and chaos.
At some point, some developer really needs to say:
"We're going to make a game where players will actually FEEL like they are living in a fantasy world. Where wizards can do fantastic magic, thieves actually steal things, and combat isn't the end all be all of your existence. We'll try to make the game as balanced as we can, but you know what? If we have to sacrifice some balance to add a really awesome feature then we'll do it."
That's a nice sentiment, but the chance of any major developer saying those things is pretty much nil. The scale and expense of developing an MMO prevents it, just by design.
Ultimately, I think that what Creslin is proposing isn't a 'game', per se, but rather a fantasy world simulation. If you approach this idea as a simulation, much like a flight simulator or the SimCity series, rather than a game, it becomes a lot more palatable. As a simulation, it becomes a matter of identifing, anticipating and solving problems and that can be modeled and implemented by developers. The idea of mutable terrain already exists in MMORPGs like Xylon or Wurm (and others), but to date, no one has really tried to build a world simulator like Creslin suggests.
And, not to disagree with everything Lidane suggests, I agree that such an effort will require a substantial development effort, probably far exceeding the essentially one-man efforts that are in the current market. To build a physics-like magical model will take substantial creative effort that can only be bankrolled by major companies. And the return on investment isn't a proven and innovation is risky.
Now, once I achieve my personal goal of becoming the first 3-time unshared mega-lottery grand-prize winner (I'm only 3 short), I'll have some actual say in the matter.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Oddly enough, when I thought about trying to design a more 'magical' magic, I went with a design that didn't talk about physics at all, but dealt more with... well, magic.
It's kind of hard to read because it's real stream of consciousness stuff, unfortunately.
... but the basic idea would be to create an MMORPG design where people can literally see the world in different ways, viewing magic and manipulating it directly, things like ley lines, spirits and auras. ... though nobody can see all the various types at the same time, and some people wouldn't be able to see magic at all.
... and why be a guy ambling around in plate in a world full of magic users? Well, in my design, iron is antithetical to magic. So wearing iron makes you a horribly crappy spell caster... and able to resist magic as well. Sure, throwing fireballs and creating bridges of pure force are pretty fancy, but if that guy in plate mail keeps walking at you and threatening to bash your head in with a lump of iron, you can see the advantages of brute force.
That's it. I'm tired of resisting. I'm just going to do it. I'm going to start a fan club.
... and why be a guy ambling around in plate in a world full of magic users? Well, in my design, iron is antithetical to magic. So wearing iron makes you a horribly crappy spell caster... and able to resist magic as well. Sure, throwing fireballs and creating bridges of pure force are pretty fancy, but if that guy in plate mail keeps walking at you and threatening to bash your head in with a lump of iron, you can see the advantages of brute force.
So you mean pretty much like Arcanum?
I mean, that's literally what half the conflicts in the game were all about, what with the old ways of magic being contested by steam engines, firearms, and massive pieces of Dwarven plate armor. And yes, being "technologically" oriented made you highly resistant to magical items and effects, and vice-versa. It eventually gets to the point by the end of the game where attempting to shoot a giant mechanical golem at point blank range with a magically enchanted bow would result in arrows whizzing in random directions 90% of the time. On the other hand specializing in tech means that magically crafted healing potions do jack squat if you attempt to use them on yourself.
Thats like years that i'm waiting for a good rp centric mmo, one that would have a more "realistic" kind of magic and religions, not just a fireball kind of magic which is pretty lame imo. I have followed quiet a few projects that wanted somehting like this but none came to light. Till today the best magic approach in mmos is the UO words of power to me, once again the first mmo is still the best in so many domains.
I mean, that's literally what half the conflicts in the game were all about, what with the old ways of magic being contested by steam engines, firearms, and massive pieces of Dwarven plate armor. And yes, being "technologically" oriented made you highly resistant to magical items and effects, and vice-versa. It eventually gets to the point by the end of the game where attempting to shoot a giant mechanical golem at point blank range with a magically enchanted bow would result in arrows whizzing in random directions 90% of the time. On the other hand specializing in tech means that magically crafted healing potions do jack squat if you attempt to use them on yourself.
Well... yes and no.
For one thing, it isn't really technology (Other than the most primitive level of 'let's make armor and weapons out of metal).
Also, it isn't just the problems with having healing affecting you, a person who really specializes in being non-magical can't see magic either. That magic bridge you're supposed to be crossing? Two problems. YOu have to REALLY hope your magical party members aren't big jokers and telling you the wrong spot to run over...
Also, unless you use the ability to reduce your magical resistance, you might just fall right through the bridge, and wouldn't THAT be embarrassing?
Besides environmental effects, it would be neat to have an added "knowledge effect" in the game. Many books I read have wizards, or magic weilders, remember more complex spells using symbols, or ancient incantations. Sometimes these need to be drawn, or memorized only to be forgotten once used (think Raistlin, I think).
Anyway, whether or not that is a good idea, I agree with the OP. A more wondrous, complex and meaningful "magical" experience would be awesome.
I always thought one of the defining characteristics of magic was that it didn't make any sense in a Newtonian context. In fact, most fantasy involves magic so mystical that it defies explanation (see Gandalf from The Lord of the Rings or Professor Voland from Th Master and Margarita). Even when magic is confined to a system, the system only has internal consistency (see Harry Potter) and defies a scientific or even philosophical explanation.
Somebody is using this old Fahrenheit system again. As if I would have any clue what 100 degree Fahrenheit would be in Celsius or Kelvin.
Also, it looks like a MASSIVE amount of necessary prework just to make fireballs and cones of cold work naturally ... meh.
I prefer a highly variant spell system, which knows effects like:
- Knock : opens a lock
- Invisibility : the target vanishes from sight
- Illusion : you create some illusion that only exists as sight
- Teleport : you move something from one place to another
- Charm : you enchant the mind of the victim, so he sees you as a friend
- Mindread : you examine the mind of the victim and try to get information from it
- Sleep : you put the victim into sleep
- Summon Ally : you create a temporary being of some power that will help you
All these spells do NOT use any physics.
You do realize that this site has a .com extension so is essentially an American site . You really shouldn't be surprised to see Fahrenheit or measures like feet and miles used.
I always thought one of the defining characteristics of magic was that it didn't make any sense in a Newtonian context. In fact, most fantasy involves magic so mystical that it defies explanation (see Gandalf from The Lord of the Rings or Professor Voland from Th Master and Margarita). Even when magic is confined to a system, the system only has internal consistency (see Harry Potter) and defies a scientific or even philosophical explanation.
Magic systems in fantasy novels are typically defined as either "hard" systems, "soft" systems, or something in-between.
A "hard" system is a magic system that basically operates strictly on the rules of some combination of real and fictional rules (physics) that are explained to the reader. Some examples of hard systems would be Sanderson's Mistborn series, or the sympathy system in the KingKiller Chronicles.
A "soft" system" is a magic system that is completely unrestrained by any rules. Either the rules are never explained to the reader, or the magic system by its nature defies classification. Examples of soft systems would be Gandalf in LOTR or Naming in the KingKiller Chronicles.
So basically, magic can be whatever you want it to be. It can be mystical and unknowable, or it can be an extension of the world's well defined "fantasy physics."
Comments
Thanks for your reponse, see my comments above
.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Oddly enough, when I thought about trying to design a more 'magical' magic, I went with a design that didn't talk about physics at all, but dealt more with... well, magic.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/303786/Input-please-on-this-MMO-concept-D.html
It's kind of hard to read because it's real stream of consciousness stuff, unfortunately.
... but the basic idea would be to create an MMORPG design where people can literally see the world in different ways, viewing magic and manipulating it directly, things like ley lines, spirits and auras. ... though nobody can see all the various types at the same time, and some people wouldn't be able to see magic at all.
... and why be a guy ambling around in plate in a world full of magic users? Well, in my design, iron is antithetical to magic. So wearing iron makes you a horribly crappy spell caster... and able to resist magic as well. Sure, throwing fireballs and creating bridges of pure force are pretty fancy, but if that guy in plate mail keeps walking at you and threatening to bash your head in with a lump of iron, you can see the advantages of brute force.
I think it becomes much less of an issue with a skill based system. SImply because there are always going to be some skill builds that are UP or OP. So long as there are at least a few builds that are very viable, it's okay.
With a class based system though, you really need to make each and every class exactly balanced or people will whine like there's no tomorrow.
I don't think anyone would whine in a skill based system if their character that has nothing but crafting and healing skills got owned by someone with a pure combat build
.
Also...the only reason that balance matters so much is that combat is normally the only thing to do in an MMORPG. If an MMORPG wasn't so focused on combat, balance wouldn't be such a game breaker.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Ultimately, I think that what Creslin is proposing isn't a 'game', per se, but rather a fantasy world simulation. If you approach this idea as a simulation, much like a flight simulator or the SimCity series, rather than a game, it becomes a lot more palatable. As a simulation, it becomes a matter of identifing, anticipating and solving problems and that can be modeled and implemented by developers. The idea of mutable terrain already exists in MMORPGs like Xylon or Wurm (and others), but to date, no one has really tried to build a world simulator like Creslin suggests.
And, not to disagree with everything Lidane suggests, I agree that such an effort will require a substantial development effort, probably far exceeding the essentially one-man efforts that are in the current market. To build a physics-like magical model will take substantial creative effort that can only be bankrolled by major companies. And the return on investment isn't a proven and innovation is risky.
Now, once I achieve my personal goal of becoming the first 3-time unshared mega-lottery grand-prize winner (I'm only 3 short), I'll have some actual say in the matter.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
That's it. I'm tired of resisting. I'm just going to do it. I'm going to start a fan club.
The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
So you mean pretty much like Arcanum?
I mean, that's literally what half the conflicts in the game were all about, what with the old ways of magic being contested by steam engines, firearms, and massive pieces of Dwarven plate armor. And yes, being "technologically" oriented made you highly resistant to magical items and effects, and vice-versa. It eventually gets to the point by the end of the game where attempting to shoot a giant mechanical golem at point blank range with a magically enchanted bow would result in arrows whizzing in random directions 90% of the time. On the other hand specializing in tech means that magically crafted healing potions do jack squat if you attempt to use them on yourself.
Thats like years that i'm waiting for a good rp centric mmo, one that would have a more "realistic" kind of magic and religions, not just a fireball kind of magic which is pretty lame imo. I have followed quiet a few projects that wanted somehting like this but none came to light. Till today the best magic approach in mmos is the UO words of power to me, once again the first mmo is still the best in so many domains.
Well... yes and no.
For one thing, it isn't really technology (Other than the most primitive level of 'let's make armor and weapons out of metal).
Also, it isn't just the problems with having healing affecting you, a person who really specializes in being non-magical can't see magic either. That magic bridge you're supposed to be crossing? Two problems. YOu have to REALLY hope your magical party members aren't big jokers and telling you the wrong spot to run over...
Also, unless you use the ability to reduce your magical resistance, you might just fall right through the bridge, and wouldn't THAT be embarrassing?
Check Magicka, it's not exactly what you're looking for but you won't find that. Anyways it does some things special so you should look into it.
Ugh.
Somebody is using this old Fahrenheit system again. As if I would have any clue what 100 degree Fahrenheit would be in Celsius or Kelvin.
Also, it looks like a MASSIVE amount of necessary prework just to make fireballs and cones of cold work naturally ... meh.
I prefer a highly variant spell system, which knows effects like:
- Knock : opens a lock
- Invisibility : the target vanishes from sight
- Illusion : you create some illusion that only exists as sight
- Teleport : you move something from one place to another
- Charm : you enchant the mind of the victim, so he sees you as a friend
- Mindread : you examine the mind of the victim and try to get information from it
- Sleep : you put the victim into sleep
- Summon Ally : you create a temporary being of some power that will help you
All these spells do NOT use any physics.
Apologies if this has been brought up before.
Besides environmental effects, it would be neat to have an added "knowledge effect" in the game. Many books I read have wizards, or magic weilders, remember more complex spells using symbols, or ancient incantations. Sometimes these need to be drawn, or memorized only to be forgotten once used (think Raistlin, I think).
Anyway, whether or not that is a good idea, I agree with the OP. A more wondrous, complex and meaningful "magical" experience would be awesome.
I always thought one of the defining characteristics of magic was that it didn't make any sense in a Newtonian context. In fact, most fantasy involves magic so mystical that it defies explanation (see Gandalf from The Lord of the Rings or Professor Voland from Th Master and Margarita). Even when magic is confined to a system, the system only has internal consistency (see Harry Potter) and defies a scientific or even philosophical explanation.
You do realize that this site has a .com extension so is essentially an American site
. You really shouldn't be surprised to see Fahrenheit or measures like feet and miles used.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
Magic systems in fantasy novels are typically defined as either "hard" systems, "soft" systems, or something in-between.
A "hard" system is a magic system that basically operates strictly on the rules of some combination of real and fictional rules (physics) that are explained to the reader. Some examples of hard systems would be Sanderson's Mistborn series, or the sympathy system in the KingKiller Chronicles.
A "soft" system" is a magic system that is completely unrestrained by any rules. Either the rules are never explained to the reader, or the magic system by its nature defies classification. Examples of soft systems would be Gandalf in LOTR or Naming in the KingKiller Chronicles.
So basically, magic can be whatever you want it to be. It can be mystical and unknowable, or it can be an extension of the world's well defined "fantasy physics."
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?