group > good god fooking shat!!!!! now we gotta try find another tank, every one knows tanking is dead hard because you have to have a certain set of geer for this specific tank unfriendly instance!!
group> gah shit man!!! we are also gonna need another bloody priest too, this one is set for smite so we are now far far worse of than we was when that noob tank was in the group.
priest> i can respec to heal if you want!!! but i dont have any healing armour or weapons or items for that matter. ive been soloing from level 1, its hard playing a priest on your own.
group > bah sod this, its takeing too long, we cant do it with out the right kind of tank and a bloody healer, we dont even need a smiteing priest!! im out of here, gonna do some epic story lines instead!! 30 minutes trying to build a group is just too much to bare!!
-THE PRIEST HAS LEFT YOUR GROUP!!
lol so there you have it.. nice read matey and a very good point that every seems to be avoiding!
A lot of ppl are pointing to GW2 and using it as proof that we are moving away from the trinity. However, I would point out, that GW2 has yet to prove it works better or that ppl still won't find a way to specialize when it comes to groups. I'm not saying it will fail in that respect, but I would wait until you taste the new pudding before saying its better than the old pudding.
You won't be able to specialize. There's no "taunt" type of ability, nothing to definitively grab and hold aggro. There's no direct healing of others either. You can't target an ally. You can, however, revive or rez anyone else, regardless of profession.
You can't be a tank guardian, a healer guardian or a dps guardian. You can only be a guardian.
There are ways to increase certain things in GW2 though, you get bonus marker of sorts (like in Warhammer) that you can slot so many of to increase certain things. People will slot these to power up the tactics they like to use with their class and that's what it'll come down to. Everyone is gonna have a preference in tactics they like to use with their class.
As well, just because you can damage, heal and protect yourself doesn't mean you'll be a solo god. With mobs properly balanced to players strength (because now weak combat classes don't need to be considered in their balancing) you won't be able to just damage and spam heals on yourself like other games. And harder bosses will either call for tight tactics and great skill from players or larger coordinated groups.
Coordination is still gonna be key. While you are, as someone above said, working as an individual to benifit the group, you still need to work with your group when mobs have equalizing skills like knock downs, stuns, knock backs and so on that could mean the death of a uncoordinated group when something trips them up.
"But, what’s so bad about the holy trinity, anyways?"
Chat: LF healz then gtg
10 minutes later...
Chat: LF healz and 1 then gtg
15 minutes later...
Chat: LF healz/tank then gtg
10 minutes later...
Chat: DPS lfg
Sounds great to me.
I have been playing MMOS for 10 years now and never had to spam like this. i think it helps if you join a great active guild or have friends to play with. But i can understand how it might effect someone who is neither in guild or likes to play solo.
"But, what’s so bad about the holy trinity, anyways?"
Chat: LF healz then gtg
10 minutes later...
Chat: LF healz and 1 then gtg
15 minutes later...
Chat: LF healz/tank then gtg
10 minutes later...
Chat: DPS lfg
Sounds great to me.
I have been playing MMOS for 10 years now and never had to spam like this. i think it helps if you join a great active guild or have friends to play with. But i can understand how it might effect someone who is neither in guild or likes to play solo.
Above scenarios is not true for everyone though.
I've seen this exact chat in every single mmorpg that I've played that follows the diku model.
It's probably the main reason why WoW implemented their dungeon finder tool.
If the game has a lower population or you are on a low pop server for a game, it can take sometimes a week to find a group for something or (in most cases) people just give up on it.
Another statement of the obvious. The Holy trinity 'hate the term' a good excuse for Developers to railroad. Where games only offer combat you don't really have an option; where games are well designed have more depth an are about the persistant world it then becomes less relevant.
________________________________________________________ Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
"But, what’s so bad about the holy trinity, anyways?"
Chat: LF healz then gtg
10 minutes later...
Chat: LF healz and 1 then gtg
15 minutes later...
Chat: LF healz/tank then gtg
10 minutes later...
Chat: DPS lfg
Sounds great to me.
I have been playing MMOS for 10 years now and never had to spam like this. i think it helps if you join a great active guild or have friends to play with. But i can understand how it might effect someone who is neither in guild or likes to play solo.
Above scenarios is not true for everyone though.
I've seen this exact chat in every single mmorpg that I've played that follows the diku model.
It's probably the main reason why WoW implemented their dungeon finder tool.
If the game has a lower population or you are on a low pop server for a game, it can take sometimes a week to find a group for something or (in most cases) people just give up on it.
In modern MMO's you are correct, but in the earlier days games like DAOC, EQ or even L2 there was no real difficulty finding a group, even if you played an undesireable class.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I dont think that the Holy Trinity is bad in itself. The LFG problems always occur because classes are locked into one of the 3 roles. If classes were more versatile, you could have far more efficient group compositions and there would be automatically less LFG problems.
So needing Holy Trinity to defeat an encounter is only bad if classes are locked into one role imo.
The only downside I see with Holy Trinity is that it makes most encounters a snorefest. Especially with a aggro magnet tanking system. But thats a different discussion.
I also see the loot issues as seperate problem. Problems with this, have nothing to do with holy trinity at all, but with loot distribution and how players are rewarded for defeating a tough encounter.
I went back to WoW on a trial with my lvl 85 warrior tank typed in "tank LF raid" and suffice to say if i were the broad side of a barn then every damn person in Ironforge and Orgrimar just obliterated a barn via invitations and PMs.
Thats a bad thing.
It is best for the industry the MMO throne remains an dusty empty seat never to be filled.
We already have a situation where nearly all MMO's let you solo to top level, no problem. PvP tends to be a mass brawl where it is hard to keep team tactics in mind. Raids tend to be class orientated with tactics.
So rather than a dramatic change lets make what we have better. Lets have levelling teach team tactics by having players work with npc allies. Do that enough as you go up levels and you will get the basics at least. Give teams in PvP many automatic bonuses for getting a good calss balance so they get a good bonus for just turning up as a team. Make raids more tactical, if players have done their tactical learning with ‘solo’ play they can jump into more complex tactics.
Alternatively do away with the trinity but give players other strong reasons to group. This will never happen though as MMO companies have removed the requirement for any grouping during levelling. They are not going to bring it back, no way.
The holy trinity isn't broken, problem is that it was never supposed to be a triad, the first MMO's to utilize it had classes even more specialized so that in addition to a healer, tank, and dps your group needed to have proper crowd control, buffers and other specialized characters such as speeders.
Hey i have to agree with that comment here, and have to push it forward, the porblem with trinity games, is that they all pretty much want to reduce every class to those 3 roles. But ye, at the second gen of themepark, you had a lot of other role, that were also present and very good, as crownd control, buffer and puller. It is just a shame those role that are also very good mathematically speeking were never really worked on.
As for exemple i never played but ONE trinity game that have their puller be the archer, its pretty lame if you ask me, and in some game that have puller you have the off tank, mellee off tank that is pulling, what a nonsense, and most trinity game don't have the puller role either.
So obviously even enhancing the "trinity" wasn't even a concern for most dev team. Same with Aoe classes, some classes were Aoe based that worked very well in some themeparks, but it never really went further than this in the themepark model. So ye the problem with themepark is once again because this model is so easy to copy and make money from that nobody really even want to loose some brain cells in enhancing it to create really unique and working roles out of this "mathematical" aspect of computer rpg games. Dispite the success of some of the roles i pointed here and i probably forgot some.
The biggest problem with the holy trinity (In this case, being defined as dps/heal/tanking) is that people treat it as if it were holy. There's nothing magical about the holy trinity. It's simply a gameplay design. It isn't the way of things because that's the natural way things work... it's the way of things because it's old and comfortable for MMORPGs.
Do not confuse the map with the territory.
The holy trinity is just a gameplay system that only vaguely approximates real life. ... and really, not well at all. First of all, the fact it's a 'trinity' is totally arbitrary. It didn't have to be a trinity. There's no hard and fast rule in life that declares combat systems must be a trinity. It's a trinity not because that's the natural state of things, but because there are three aspects... DPS, tanking and healing... that create the base of this particular combat system.
Sure, it can be used to create puzzles, and to encourage reliance on others...
... but if you look at every non-video-game or P&P RPG example involving teamwork elsewhere, you'll see the holy trinity simply doesnt exist.
Wanting a game that doesn't use the holy trinity does not neccessarily mean one is against the concept of holy trinity in games. It's a type of game design. Somebody can want to play a squad & cover based FPS without wanting Unreal Tournament to disappear forever.
Not wanting the holy trinity in a game doesn't mean somebody is against teamwork, either.
You can look at life and even many video games and literally find thousands of examples of teamwork that don't involve those particular three roles.
You can even find plenty of examples of teamwork not involving static hard-coded roles for people.
So, to emphasize... the Holy Trinity does not equal teamwork, nor is it anything more than one of many possible gameplay systems.
(Since so many people brought it up, on a Guild Wars 2 specific note, I'd like to point out that they are specifically only moving away from the Holy Trinity, but they're still using a trinity-style combat system, that involves relying upon and helping your allies. Giving people broader toolsets and a choice of roles they can take doesn't mean teamwork no longer exists. I'm not sure how people keep getting that.)
The issue I have with the holy trinity is that it does not create an epic fight, as if you were watching a movie. Think about watching any good fight scene -- you don't have some big burly idiot bashing away and yelling at some creature while someone in the background casts full heals on him. It's usually about teamwork in a different way -- the monster / enemy overwhelms the big guy so teammates jump in to distract or disorient. It's not about spamming heals, its about action and people jumping in and out of the fight. Yes, you might still have the "tank" that's better at taking a few punches, but not swords through the gut over and over.
The biggest problem with the holy trinity is actually the healing. It creates an atmosphere of standing around because it doesn't matter if you get hit -- the healer will (hopefully) heal you. Epic fights should be about offensive/defensive coordination and the need to avoid damage rather than just soaking it up all the time. This requires mobs to be balanced differently, but I think it ends up being a more interesting fight.
its survives on laziness and while it is logical to have everyone fighting metal up front leather in back its not logical for the metal wearing guy to be holding all attention while his friends shoot his enemy and his healer rebuilds him through several inches of steel.
While I agree with your assertion (and that of Sharook), I take exception with this part. It's not laziness on the part of developers that cause the perpetuation of the trinity. It's aversion to risk. Coming up with a new system that's a departure from the norm is RISKY. And given how integral the combat system is to most MMOs, you could very well torpedo your own game if you don't get it right. Tell me, would you put your own $25 million down on a bet that the system you think should replace the trinity will gain widespread acceptance in a marketplace that's full of "mainstream" players (read: Players whose primary or only experience in MMOs is WoW)? Also, a marked departure from the norm could have your game immediately labeled as 'niche', which can be the kiss of death. It's a matter of picking your battles. You can innovate in other areas of the game but doing it with your combat system is REALLY risky.
And I couldn't disagree more with Elikal. I hate the trinity but the classes I cut my teeth on in MMOs (starting in EQ1) were: Warrior, rogue, cleric, wizard, enchanter, cleric (in that order) so the very idea that I don't like to cooperate is daft. But, I will say that I have a serious problem with depending on others because in today's MMO landscape, everyone seems to be so casual as to not even care how good/bad they play. It's why I multibox, primarily. I don't like having my goals held hostage by folks with varying playstyles. If you can only play an hour at a time (uninterrupted) and a task is going to take 3 hours to complete, I won't invite you to the group....if I know that. All too often, people don't mention these things and the group winds up shorthanded because of it. I don't need one character who can do it all. I'll just level the full gamut and play them together, if need be. I don't have anything against folks with different playstyles, I just prefer them to keep their escargot out of my peanut butter when I'm trying to find some jelly.
Kyleran makes a good point as well. The first instance of the trinity that I remember was from EQ1's early days. Back then, dps wasn't a part of it because dps was a dime a dozen. You needed tank, healer, and crowd control (or, in EQ parlance of the time, Warrior, Cleric, Enchanter). That's three of the 11? (at the time) classes. Everyone else could be dps, depending on the situation (though Rogue, Monk, Wizard, etc were preferred). Tank, healer, dps only applies to those games where the mobs can't really hurt the players in numbers so kill rate becomes paramount (and not merely safety, as it was eons ago).
A lot of good points in this comment string. I understand many MMOs feel obligated to use the Holy Trinity, continuing the 'if it ain't broken' mode of thought. But though it s not broken, it IS breaking down. The argument that H3 allows people to specialize in a single role is highly unrealistic, as is the idea that customization leads to under developed and unfocused characters. Players want to specialize, but nobody wants to feel forced into a specilization from the get-go. Personally, I like the idea of allowing full range customization, developing your characters focus as you play instead of choosing a preset and buffing it every level with grossly similar abilities. Considering AI, you'd think with gaming technology today we could sever the ties to aggrolists, developing more adaptable and realistic AI as GrumpyMel suggested. The idea of drawing aggro initofitself is a bit ridiculous. Honestly, why would anyone stop defending themselves against an attacker just because somebody across the room screamed at them. Many staple abilities in MMOs tend to draw away from the realistic sense of the rpg genre, leading to and increased need for min-maxing without any focus on actual role-playing. Coming from a pen-and-paper standpoint, I really miss the rp aspect of many old systems like MUDs and PBEMs and feel it would benefit the industry to have just a slight more focus on making the game/AI/character development a little more realistic.
Well, from what I'm seeing from GW2 and some of the post here I agree with the Advocate. Frankly the only thing I see happening when you give everyone the skills to do everything sooner or later it gonna get to the point where no one does anything together other than a few rare times IF the game forces them too.
Personally, I enjoyed being the bad ass mofo tank in my guild. It was awesome knowing that I had worked hard enough that when shit hit the fan my guild knew I could handle it and pull us out. Saddly, the "every class is awesome at everything route" that some players want so bad may just as well kill the very notion of "guilds" as well. Why bother when everyone can do everything and anything and no one has to depend on anyone else?
Well, from what I'm seeing from GW2 and some of the post here I agree with the Advocate. Frankly the only thing I see happening when you give everyone the skills to do everything sooner or later it gonna get to the point where no one does anything together other than a few rare times IF the game forces them too.
Personally, I enjoyed being the bad ass mofo tank in my guild. It was awesome knowing that I had worked hard enough that when shit hit the fan my guild knew I could handle it and pull us out. Saddly, the "every class is awesome at everything route" that some players want so bad may just as well kill the very notion of "guilds" as well. Why bother when everyone can do everything and anything and no one has to depend on anyone else?
You know, I've heard that when teams play basketball with each other, they only need a single player.
Because everybody can shoot, block, dribble, pass and steal, they don't really need other players.
Having no unique roles in basketball has killed all concept of teamwork. I mean, they let ANYBODY pass, so might as well just have one player passing to himself, right?
... ...
If you're wondering why I said something so ridiculous, well, I'm wondering the same about what you said. If something requires multiple people to do, that is a seperate concept from needing tank/dps/healer. The two can overlap, but they're not the exact same thing.
Also, no class in GW2 can do everything and anything. Even if you're just talking about roles (They can do dps, supporting and controlling), they can only focus effectively on a couple at a time. ... and have you ever wondered what the point is to team supporting skills if you're by yourself? They're actually not fully effective unless you... well, have a team.
I'm not sure which of these two problems applies to you:
Either you don't understand what GW2 is trying to do...
... or you think the holy trinity is the only method of having teamwork.
Maybe it's both. Hopefully you'll understand a little better now. Maybe.
Personally, I enjoyed being the bad ass mofo tank in my guild. It was awesome knowing that I had worked hard enough that when shit hit the fan my guild knew I could handle it and pull us out. Saddly, the "every class is awesome at everything route" that some players want so bad may just as well kill the very notion of "guilds" as well. Why bother when everyone can do everything and anything and no one has to depend on anyone else?
Well I almost felt sorry for you ... but then i started to laugh . You know, thats maybe your dream that there is another X ppl that depend on you, that fear the day you decide to change the guild becouse the current one is not up to your ambition. But its not their dream .
GW2 is not removing roles from combat - they are still there, they just remove dedicated healing and tanking role. Imo dedicated tanking role is most stupid one in trinity . It doesnt exist in PvP ( you can tank only idiots) so why it is required for PvE ? It felt realy stupid when you have uber boss mashing into 1 guy in front and ignoring those 5 behind that keep him alive and trinity proponents dare to even call this kind of fights tactical ...
Holy trinity fails in PvP for a reason. It is stupid logic. That is why it should not exist. Crowd control, dps and healing is essential to any PvP team. In PvE you only need a tank to take beatings, and the healer to keep him up. A dumbed down crowd control tactic.
If a mage is blasting a boss for 5% of his health why would the boss mess with some chump hitting him for .0000000000001%? Because he was programmed to be a moron, that's why.
Holy trinity is dumbed down. Tanks have been a major drag on this genre, and one specifically created by the MMO genre to dumb down content and stick classes in neat, boring, linear roles.
the holy trinity needs to go bye bye, it was and is a silly model that reduces role play and immersion to mathematics. It also fractures a community and causes elitism. Ok I gave you the problem now here is the solution. You fight without getting healed and if you dont manage your hit points and defense correctly relative to your offense you, yes drum roll please you die! This encourages people to use cover, tactics, work together as a team, be careful, have a sense of worry and fear all elements to successful immersion
One of the good things I loved about the original star wars galaxies, that you could get some hideous disease that had a real and immediate impact on your abilities and the only way you got it off was to go seek out a doctor
so game designers take heed and ditch the holy trinity
Well, from what I'm seeing from GW2 and some of the post here I agree with the Advocate. Frankly the only thing I see happening when you give everyone the skills to do everything sooner or later it gonna get to the point where no one does anything together other than a few rare times IF the game forces them too.
Personally, I enjoyed being the bad ass mofo tank in my guild. It was awesome knowing that I had worked hard enough that when shit hit the fan my guild knew I could handle it and pull us out. Saddly, the "every class is awesome at everything route" that some players want so bad may just as well kill the very notion of "guilds" as well. Why bother when everyone can do everything and anything and no one has to depend on anyone else?
You know, I've heard that when teams play basketball with each other, they only need a single player.
Because everybody can shoot, block, dribble, pass and steal, they don't really need other players.
Having no unique roles in basketball has killed all concept of teamwork. I mean, they let ANYBODY pass, so might as well just have one player passing to himself, right?
... ...
If you're wondering why I said something so ridiculous, well, I'm wondering the same about what you said. If something requires multiple people to do, that is a seperate concept from needing tank/dps/healer. The two can overlap, but they're not the exact same thing.
Also, no class in GW2 can do everything and anything. Even if you're just talking about roles (They can do dps, supporting and controlling), they can only focus effectively on a couple at a time. ... and have you ever wondered what the point is to team supporting skills if you're by yourself? They're actually not fully effective unless you... well, have a team.
I'm not sure which of these two problems applies to you:
Either you don't understand what GW2 is trying to do...
... or you think the holy trinity is the only method of having teamwork.
Maybe it's both. Hopefully you'll understand a little better now. Maybe.
Funny that you mention basketball, cause when I played in highschool our coach basically preached about the holy trinity of any solid team. That being the guard, forward, and center. Funny too how some of the greastest teams in basketball over the past few decades usually had.... yea, a great guard, forward, and center.
Yea, you see in team sports you have these things called positions that people called athletes fill. Sure, everyone on lets say a football team can most likely throw a football, yet they have the guys who is the quarterback do it. Why? Because thats what he does best, that is his main and only real goal, throw the damn ball better than anyone else on the team.
Frankly, why you would choose sports off all things to try to make a point is beyond me since if theres anything that makes the arguement for specialized classes (or positions sinced you used sports to try to make a point) I dont know what it is. The real world is filled with with people doing something better than most people and thus being a specialist in that field. Sure, a army sniper might know how to use a bandaid but I would rather have the guy thats the trained medic treat me for my wounds anyday of the week first.
Personally, I enjoyed being the bad ass mofo tank in my guild. It was awesome knowing that I had worked hard enough that when shit hit the fan my guild knew I could handle it and pull us out. Saddly, the "every class is awesome at everything route" that some players want so bad may just as well kill the very notion of "guilds" as well. Why bother when everyone can do everything and anything and no one has to depend on anyone else?
Well I almost felt sorry for you ... but then i started to laugh . You know, thats maybe your dream that there is another X ppl that depend on you, that fear the day you decide to change the guild becouse the current one is not up to your ambition. But its not their dream .
GW2 is not removing roles from combat - they are still there, they just remove dedicated healing and tanking role. Imo dedicated tanking role is most stupid one in trinity . It doesnt exist in PvP ( you can tank only idiots) so why it is required for PvE ? It felt realy stupid when you have uber boss mashing into 1 guy in front and ignoring those 5 behind that keep him alive and trinity proponents dare to even call this kind of fights tactical ...
" It doesnt exist in PvP ( you can tank only idiots) so why it is required for PvE ?"
This right here is why I cant stand most GW players. If something isnt made just for PvP it must be fail. There's more than just PvP. Get a life.
" It felt realy stupid...." "ppl that depend on you, that fear the day you decide to change the guild becouse"
Lol. Frankly, I almost felt sorry for you till I realized you were just another fail "GW2 is/will be the greatest thing ever" troll most likely. Here's a tip, learn to spell/type before you start running your mouth about things being "stupid", ok?
Well, from what I'm seeing from GW2 and some of the post here I agree with the Advocate. Frankly the only thing I see happening when you give everyone the skills to do everything sooner or later it gonna get to the point where no one does anything together other than a few rare times IF the game forces them too.
Personally, I enjoyed being the bad ass mofo tank in my guild. It was awesome knowing that I had worked hard enough that when shit hit the fan my guild knew I could handle it and pull us out. Saddly, the "every class is awesome at everything route" that some players want so bad may just as well kill the very notion of "guilds" as well. Why bother when everyone can do everything and anything and no one has to depend on anyone else?
You know, I've heard that when teams play basketball with each other, they only need a single player.
Because everybody can shoot, block, dribble, pass and steal, they don't really need other players.
Having no unique roles in basketball has killed all concept of teamwork. I mean, they let ANYBODY pass, so might as well just have one player passing to himself, right?
... ...
If you're wondering why I said something so ridiculous, well, I'm wondering the same about what you said. If something requires multiple people to do, that is a seperate concept from needing tank/dps/healer. The two can overlap, but they're not the exact same thing.
Also, no class in GW2 can do everything and anything. Even if you're just talking about roles (They can do dps, supporting and controlling), they can only focus effectively on a couple at a time. ... and have you ever wondered what the point is to team supporting skills if you're by yourself? They're actually not fully effective unless you... well, have a team.
I'm not sure which of these two problems applies to you:
Either you don't understand what GW2 is trying to do...
... or you think the holy trinity is the only method of having teamwork.
Maybe it's both. Hopefully you'll understand a little better now. Maybe.
Funny that you mention basketball, cause when I played in highschool our coach basically preached about the holy trinity of any solid team. That being the guard, forward, and center. Funny too how some of the greastest teams in basketball over the past few decades usually had.... yea, a great guard, forward, and center.
Yea, you see in team sports you have these things called positions that people called athletes fill. Sure, everyone on lets say a football team can most likely throw a football, yet they have the guys who is the quarterback do it. Why? Because thats what he does best, that is his main and only real goal, throw the damn ball better than anyone else on the team.
Frankly, why you would choose sports off all things to try to make a point is beyond me since if theres anything that makes the arguement for specialized classes (or positions sinced you used sports to try to make a point) I dont know what it is. The real world is filled with with people doing something better than most people and thus being a specialist in that field. Sure, a army sniper might know how to use a bandaid but I would rather have the guy thats the trained medic treat me for my wounds anyday of the week first.
The "Holy Trinity" in WoW revolves around people being forced to specialize to be able to do one thing and one thing only. If you're a tank, every choice you make maximizes tanking, if you're a DPS, every choice you make maximizes DPS. You don't do other legs of the trinity ever, hybrids do not exist.
The notion of "trinity" gameplay is in itself ridiculous because it's not actually a thing. You can design a game around anything, it could have just as easily been "damage, healing, crowd control", or "damage, healing, debuffing", or it could require five things to succeed, or only one. It's only because WoW has so warped our perceptions of what an MMO is that we talk about the "Holy Trinity" being tank, healer, dps, when in reality, it means "tank, healer, dps to the exclusion of all else."
In Meowhead's basketball example, it would be Holy Trinity if guards only dribbled, passed, and stole, forwards only shot and set picks, and centers only rebounded and blocked and nobody ever did any of those other things.
In GW2, any of the classes could do any kind of role, at least somewhat or in their own way. They can't do everything at once due to the limited skillbar and the way weapons determine half your active abilities. The pure power is also not there, so you couldn't be a pure healer or pure tank even if you wanted. I'll admit the basketball analogy isn't perfect, but it makes some sense. You can have a great scorer, but they aren't going to score all your points, you can have a great rebounder but others will grab them as well.
In GW2, you can still be a great player. You can still spec to bring a lot of controlling abilities and be a "tank" and save a lot of people's butts. People will want you around because they know you're skilled. The difference is that nobody will be able to carry all the weight. It may seem like a bad thing, but you also don't necessarily fail just because one person didn't do their job. It gives you the tools to be able to get in trouble but still rally out of it.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it."-Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007
Comments
You won't be able to specialize. There's no "taunt" type of ability, nothing to definitively grab and hold aggro. There's no direct healing of others either. You can't target an ally. You can, however, revive or rez anyone else, regardless of profession.
You can't be a tank guardian, a healer guardian or a dps guardian. You can only be a guardian.
Oderint, dum metuant.
"But, what’s so bad about the holy trinity, anyways?"
Chat: LF healz then gtg
10 minutes later...
Chat: LF healz and 1 then gtg
15 minutes later...
Chat: LF healz/tank then gtg
10 minutes later...
Chat: DPS lfg
Sounds great to me.
There are ways to increase certain things in GW2 though, you get bonus marker of sorts (like in Warhammer) that you can slot so many of to increase certain things. People will slot these to power up the tactics they like to use with their class and that's what it'll come down to. Everyone is gonna have a preference in tactics they like to use with their class.
As well, just because you can damage, heal and protect yourself doesn't mean you'll be a solo god. With mobs properly balanced to players strength (because now weak combat classes don't need to be considered in their balancing) you won't be able to just damage and spam heals on yourself like other games. And harder bosses will either call for tight tactics and great skill from players or larger coordinated groups.
Coordination is still gonna be key. While you are, as someone above said, working as an individual to benifit the group, you still need to work with your group when mobs have equalizing skills like knock downs, stuns, knock backs and so on that could mean the death of a uncoordinated group when something trips them up.
I have been playing MMOS for 10 years now and never had to spam like this. i think it helps if you join a great active guild or have friends to play with. But i can understand how it might effect someone who is neither in guild or likes to play solo.
Above scenarios is not true for everyone though.
I've seen this exact chat in every single mmorpg that I've played that follows the diku model.
It's probably the main reason why WoW implemented their dungeon finder tool.
If the game has a lower population or you are on a low pop server for a game, it can take sometimes a week to find a group for something or (in most cases) people just give up on it.
Another statement of the obvious. The Holy trinity 'hate the term' a good excuse for Developers to railroad. Where games only offer combat you don't really have an option; where games are well designed have more depth an are about the persistant world it then becomes less relevant.
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Sorcery must persist, the future is the Citadel
In modern MMO's you are correct, but in the earlier days games like DAOC, EQ or even L2 there was no real difficulty finding a group, even if you played an undesireable class.
They evolved into something bad......
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I dont think that the Holy Trinity is bad in itself. The LFG problems always occur because classes are locked into one of the 3 roles. If classes were more versatile, you could have far more efficient group compositions and there would be automatically less LFG problems.
So needing Holy Trinity to defeat an encounter is only bad if classes are locked into one role imo.
The only downside I see with Holy Trinity is that it makes most encounters a snorefest. Especially with a aggro magnet tanking system. But thats a different discussion.
I also see the loot issues as seperate problem. Problems with this, have nothing to do with holy trinity at all, but with loot distribution and how players are rewarded for defeating a tough encounter.
I went back to WoW on a trial with my lvl 85 warrior tank typed in "tank LF raid" and suffice to say if i were the broad side of a barn then every damn person in Ironforge and Orgrimar just obliterated a barn via invitations and PMs.
Thats a bad thing.
It is best for the industry the MMO throne remains an dusty empty seat never to be filled.
Someone asked about alternatives:
We already have a situation where nearly all MMO's let you solo to top level, no problem. PvP tends to be a mass brawl where it is hard to keep team tactics in mind. Raids tend to be class orientated with tactics.
So rather than a dramatic change lets make what we have better. Lets have levelling teach team tactics by having players work with npc allies. Do that enough as you go up levels and you will get the basics at least. Give teams in PvP many automatic bonuses for getting a good calss balance so they get a good bonus for just turning up as a team. Make raids more tactical, if players have done their tactical learning with ‘solo’ play they can jump into more complex tactics.
Alternatively do away with the trinity but give players other strong reasons to group. This will never happen though as MMO companies have removed the requirement for any grouping during levelling. They are not going to bring it back, no way.
Hey i have to agree with that comment here, and have to push it forward, the porblem with trinity games, is that they all pretty much want to reduce every class to those 3 roles. But ye, at the second gen of themepark, you had a lot of other role, that were also present and very good, as crownd control, buffer and puller. It is just a shame those role that are also very good mathematically speeking were never really worked on.
As for exemple i never played but ONE trinity game that have their puller be the archer, its pretty lame if you ask me, and in some game that have puller you have the off tank, mellee off tank that is pulling, what a nonsense, and most trinity game don't have the puller role either.
So obviously even enhancing the "trinity" wasn't even a concern for most dev team. Same with Aoe classes, some classes were Aoe based that worked very well in some themeparks, but it never really went further than this in the themepark model. So ye the problem with themepark is once again because this model is so easy to copy and make money from that nobody really even want to loose some brain cells in enhancing it to create really unique and working roles out of this "mathematical" aspect of computer rpg games. Dispite the success of some of the roles i pointed here and i probably forgot some.
I question or disagree with everything this blog post said.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
The biggest problem with the holy trinity (In this case, being defined as dps/heal/tanking) is that people treat it as if it were holy. There's nothing magical about the holy trinity. It's simply a gameplay design. It isn't the way of things because that's the natural way things work... it's the way of things because it's old and comfortable for MMORPGs.
Do not confuse the map with the territory.
The holy trinity is just a gameplay system that only vaguely approximates real life. ... and really, not well at all. First of all, the fact it's a 'trinity' is totally arbitrary. It didn't have to be a trinity. There's no hard and fast rule in life that declares combat systems must be a trinity. It's a trinity not because that's the natural state of things, but because there are three aspects... DPS, tanking and healing... that create the base of this particular combat system.
Sure, it can be used to create puzzles, and to encourage reliance on others...
... but if you look at every non-video-game or P&P RPG example involving teamwork elsewhere, you'll see the holy trinity simply doesnt exist.
Wanting a game that doesn't use the holy trinity does not neccessarily mean one is against the concept of holy trinity in games. It's a type of game design. Somebody can want to play a squad & cover based FPS without wanting Unreal Tournament to disappear forever.
Not wanting the holy trinity in a game doesn't mean somebody is against teamwork, either.
You can look at life and even many video games and literally find thousands of examples of teamwork that don't involve those particular three roles.
You can even find plenty of examples of teamwork not involving static hard-coded roles for people.
So, to emphasize... the Holy Trinity does not equal teamwork, nor is it anything more than one of many possible gameplay systems.
(Since so many people brought it up, on a Guild Wars 2 specific note, I'd like to point out that they are specifically only moving away from the Holy Trinity, but they're still using a trinity-style combat system, that involves relying upon and helping your allies. Giving people broader toolsets and a choice of roles they can take doesn't mean teamwork no longer exists. I'm not sure how people keep getting that.)
The issue I have with the holy trinity is that it does not create an epic fight, as if you were watching a movie. Think about watching any good fight scene -- you don't have some big burly idiot bashing away and yelling at some creature while someone in the background casts full heals on him. It's usually about teamwork in a different way -- the monster / enemy overwhelms the big guy so teammates jump in to distract or disorient. It's not about spamming heals, its about action and people jumping in and out of the fight. Yes, you might still have the "tank" that's better at taking a few punches, but not swords through the gut over and over.
The biggest problem with the holy trinity is actually the healing. It creates an atmosphere of standing around because it doesn't matter if you get hit -- the healer will (hopefully) heal you. Epic fights should be about offensive/defensive coordination and the need to avoid damage rather than just soaking it up all the time. This requires mobs to be balanced differently, but I think it ends up being a more interesting fight.
While I agree with your assertion (and that of Sharook), I take exception with this part. It's not laziness on the part of developers that cause the perpetuation of the trinity. It's aversion to risk. Coming up with a new system that's a departure from the norm is RISKY. And given how integral the combat system is to most MMOs, you could very well torpedo your own game if you don't get it right. Tell me, would you put your own $25 million down on a bet that the system you think should replace the trinity will gain widespread acceptance in a marketplace that's full of "mainstream" players (read: Players whose primary or only experience in MMOs is WoW)? Also, a marked departure from the norm could have your game immediately labeled as 'niche', which can be the kiss of death. It's a matter of picking your battles. You can innovate in other areas of the game but doing it with your combat system is REALLY risky.
And I couldn't disagree more with Elikal. I hate the trinity but the classes I cut my teeth on in MMOs (starting in EQ1) were: Warrior, rogue, cleric, wizard, enchanter, cleric (in that order) so the very idea that I don't like to cooperate is daft. But, I will say that I have a serious problem with depending on others because in today's MMO landscape, everyone seems to be so casual as to not even care how good/bad they play. It's why I multibox, primarily. I don't like having my goals held hostage by folks with varying playstyles. If you can only play an hour at a time (uninterrupted) and a task is going to take 3 hours to complete, I won't invite you to the group....if I know that. All too often, people don't mention these things and the group winds up shorthanded because of it. I don't need one character who can do it all. I'll just level the full gamut and play them together, if need be. I don't have anything against folks with different playstyles, I just prefer them to keep their escargot out of my peanut butter when I'm trying to find some jelly.
Kyleran makes a good point as well. The first instance of the trinity that I remember was from EQ1's early days. Back then, dps wasn't a part of it because dps was a dime a dozen. You needed tank, healer, and crowd control (or, in EQ parlance of the time, Warrior, Cleric, Enchanter). That's three of the 11? (at the time) classes. Everyone else could be dps, depending on the situation (though Rogue, Monk, Wizard, etc were preferred). Tank, healer, dps only applies to those games where the mobs can't really hurt the players in numbers so kill rate becomes paramount (and not merely safety, as it was eons ago).
A lot of good points in this comment string. I understand many MMOs feel obligated to use the Holy Trinity, continuing the 'if it ain't broken' mode of thought. But though it s not broken, it IS breaking down. The argument that H3 allows people to specialize in a single role is highly unrealistic, as is the idea that customization leads to under developed and unfocused characters. Players want to specialize, but nobody wants to feel forced into a specilization from the get-go. Personally, I like the idea of allowing full range customization, developing your characters focus as you play instead of choosing a preset and buffing it every level with grossly similar abilities. Considering AI, you'd think with gaming technology today we could sever the ties to aggrolists, developing more adaptable and realistic AI as GrumpyMel suggested. The idea of drawing aggro initofitself is a bit ridiculous. Honestly, why would anyone stop defending themselves against an attacker just because somebody across the room screamed at them. Many staple abilities in MMOs tend to draw away from the realistic sense of the rpg genre, leading to and increased need for min-maxing without any focus on actual role-playing. Coming from a pen-and-paper standpoint, I really miss the rp aspect of many old systems like MUDs and PBEMs and feel it would benefit the industry to have just a slight more focus on making the game/AI/character development a little more realistic.
Well, from what I'm seeing from GW2 and some of the post here I agree with the Advocate. Frankly the only thing I see happening when you give everyone the skills to do everything sooner or later it gonna get to the point where no one does anything together other than a few rare times IF the game forces them too.
Personally, I enjoyed being the bad ass mofo tank in my guild. It was awesome knowing that I had worked hard enough that when shit hit the fan my guild knew I could handle it and pull us out. Saddly, the "every class is awesome at everything route" that some players want so bad may just as well kill the very notion of "guilds" as well. Why bother when everyone can do everything and anything and no one has to depend on anyone else?
You know, I've heard that when teams play basketball with each other, they only need a single player.
Because everybody can shoot, block, dribble, pass and steal, they don't really need other players.
Having no unique roles in basketball has killed all concept of teamwork. I mean, they let ANYBODY pass, so might as well just have one player passing to himself, right?
... ...
If you're wondering why I said something so ridiculous, well, I'm wondering the same about what you said.
If something requires multiple people to do, that is a seperate concept from needing tank/dps/healer. The two can overlap, but they're not the exact same thing.
Also, no class in GW2 can do everything and anything. Even if you're just talking about roles (They can do dps, supporting and controlling), they can only focus effectively on a couple at a time. ... and have you ever wondered what the point is to team supporting skills if you're by yourself? They're actually not fully effective unless you... well, have a team.
I'm not sure which of these two problems applies to you:
Either you don't understand what GW2 is trying to do...
... or you think the holy trinity is the only method of having teamwork.
Maybe it's both. Hopefully you'll understand a little better now. Maybe.
Well I almost felt sorry for you ... but then i started to laugh . You know, thats maybe your dream that there is another X ppl that depend on you, that fear the day you decide to change the guild becouse the current one is not up to your ambition. But its not their dream .
GW2 is not removing roles from combat - they are still there, they just remove dedicated healing and tanking role. Imo dedicated tanking role is most stupid one in trinity . It doesnt exist in PvP ( you can tank only idiots) so why it is required for PvE ? It felt realy stupid when you have uber boss mashing into 1 guy in front and ignoring those 5 behind that keep him alive and trinity proponents dare to even call this kind of fights tactical ...
Holy trinity fails in PvP for a reason. It is stupid logic. That is why it should not exist. Crowd control, dps and healing is essential to any PvP team. In PvE you only need a tank to take beatings, and the healer to keep him up. A dumbed down crowd control tactic.
If a mage is blasting a boss for 5% of his health why would the boss mess with some chump hitting him for .0000000000001%? Because he was programmed to be a moron, that's why.
Holy trinity is dumbed down. Tanks have been a major drag on this genre, and one specifically created by the MMO genre to dumb down content and stick classes in neat, boring, linear roles.
the holy trinity needs to go bye bye, it was and is a silly model that reduces role play and immersion to mathematics. It also fractures a community and causes elitism. Ok I gave you the problem now here is the solution. You fight without getting healed and if you dont manage your hit points and defense correctly relative to your offense you, yes drum roll please you die! This encourages people to use cover, tactics, work together as a team, be careful, have a sense of worry and fear all elements to successful immersion
One of the good things I loved about the original star wars galaxies, that you could get some hideous disease that had a real and immediate impact on your abilities and the only way you got it off was to go seek out a doctor
so game designers take heed and ditch the holy trinity
Funny that you mention basketball, cause when I played in highschool our coach basically preached about the holy trinity of any solid team. That being the guard, forward, and center. Funny too how some of the greastest teams in basketball over the past few decades usually had.... yea, a great guard, forward, and center.
Yea, you see in team sports you have these things called positions that people called athletes fill. Sure, everyone on lets say a football team can most likely throw a football, yet they have the guys who is the quarterback do it. Why? Because thats what he does best, that is his main and only real goal, throw the damn ball better than anyone else on the team.
Frankly, why you would choose sports off all things to try to make a point is beyond me since if theres anything that makes the arguement for specialized classes (or positions sinced you used sports to try to make a point) I dont know what it is. The real world is filled with with people doing something better than most people and thus being a specialist in that field. Sure, a army sniper might know how to use a bandaid but I would rather have the guy thats the trained medic treat me for my wounds anyday of the week first.
" It doesnt exist in PvP ( you can tank only idiots) so why it is required for PvE ?"
This right here is why I cant stand most GW players. If something isnt made just for PvP it must be fail. There's more than just PvP. Get a life.
" It felt realy stupid...." "ppl that depend on you, that fear the day you decide to change the guild becouse"
Lol. Frankly, I almost felt sorry for you till I realized you were just another fail "GW2 is/will be the greatest thing ever" troll most likely. Here's a tip, learn to spell/type before you start running your mouth about things being "stupid", ok?
The "Holy Trinity" in WoW revolves around people being forced to specialize to be able to do one thing and one thing only. If you're a tank, every choice you make maximizes tanking, if you're a DPS, every choice you make maximizes DPS. You don't do other legs of the trinity ever, hybrids do not exist.
The notion of "trinity" gameplay is in itself ridiculous because it's not actually a thing. You can design a game around anything, it could have just as easily been "damage, healing, crowd control", or "damage, healing, debuffing", or it could require five things to succeed, or only one. It's only because WoW has so warped our perceptions of what an MMO is that we talk about the "Holy Trinity" being tank, healer, dps, when in reality, it means "tank, healer, dps to the exclusion of all else."
In Meowhead's basketball example, it would be Holy Trinity if guards only dribbled, passed, and stole, forwards only shot and set picks, and centers only rebounded and blocked and nobody ever did any of those other things.
In GW2, any of the classes could do any kind of role, at least somewhat or in their own way. They can't do everything at once due to the limited skillbar and the way weapons determine half your active abilities. The pure power is also not there, so you couldn't be a pure healer or pure tank even if you wanted. I'll admit the basketball analogy isn't perfect, but it makes some sense. You can have a great scorer, but they aren't going to score all your points, you can have a great rebounder but others will grab them as well.
In GW2, you can still be a great player. You can still spec to bring a lot of controlling abilities and be a "tank" and save a lot of people's butts. People will want you around because they know you're skilled. The difference is that nobody will be able to carry all the weight. It may seem like a bad thing, but you also don't necessarily fail just because one person didn't do their job. It gives you the tools to be able to get in trouble but still rally out of it.
"Gamers will no longer buy the argument that every MMO requires a subscription fee to offset server and bandwidth costs. It's not true you know it, and they know it." -Jeff Strain, co-founder of ArenaNet, 2007