Look how much development time and effort goes into 20 man raids in other games. Usually, they eat up all or close to all of the development time for new content released outside of expansions.
There is already Dynamic Event content in GW2 that requires up to 100 people or more. It's not on demand, but it's content everyone, from guilds, to pugs to soloists can all partake in. Let alone WvWvW, which has content and objectives beyond "kill the other faction".
I think if 20 man raid content ever comes into the game at all, that should be one of the few areas of play content that belongs in the GW2 store. Let it either survive via self funding of new development staff that work just on raids, or fail to exist because no one wants to pay for it.
I'm usually all for variety of content and options, even if I'm not interested in them myself, but knowing how big of a chunk of development time and resources would have to be spent to include them in free content updates, the result would be that we wouldn't get a whole lot of anything else.
I don't think most people are going to miss them with all the other things to do in the dynamic world of GW2. People who just love raiding have plenty of other gaming options.
I want ANet to focus on providing new and updated dynamic events, new five man dungeons, new personal story events, new places to explore and refinemements and additions to PVP and WvWvW in their free content releases, not 20 man Raids that leave them few resources to do anything else.
I raided in WoW for a while, but eventually hated it. The best gear becomes outclassed 6 months later when a new raid comes out. The new content makes you seem weaker. The bosses did not get better in AI, they just have more hp and hit harder. So it becomes a continual gear grind to keep players playing.
This is something I don't want GW2 to become. And I can see them being able to do a lot more with Dynamic Events and fighting epic bosses.
I'm not 100% sure on this, but I have my doubts guild wars 2 will rely on any sort of gear grind, at least GW1 didn't.
GW1 is all about rare items, the funny thing is these rare items are just as good as any item you can buy from a merchant. But if you find a level 8 with perfect stats people will go nuts and pay everything to get it. The sword (for example) is still 11-22 with 15% damage when your health is above 50%, exactly like a merchant one.... but worth a lot more depending on it's rarity.
Its an interesting concept but guild wars (at least the first one) had progression based on skills and not gear. I really hope they follow this same trend in GW2. For the record, I don't know the be-all-end-all for GW2 and haven't really kept up on it, so I don't know if what I'm saying is common knowledge to those who haven't played the original or not... either way, I love the concept of this and think it's a great strategy. It also makes PVP much more balanced IMHO.
EDIT: I forgot to answer the OP LOL. Yes I would still raid for fun, assuming rare items and materials dropped that I can get more rare items (see above). I used to love places like UW and FoW and even though they're not "raids" the way the system is designed, you'd never get "better" gear from them (again, see above - I'm assuming original ~= GW2).
If you can do the raid and its pretty fun and maybe you get some minor stuff (maybe cosmetic or non combat) and its not a chore then yeah. The current problem with raiding is that I have to raid with a bunch of other people on carefully planed nights that I usually cant make, and when I do make it I usually dont get what I need because there is only 1 item but so many people that needs it.
Yes...I don't care about gear really. I raided and did dungeons all the time in the evil "gear-centric" WoW and the first time I gave a crap about gear was the transmog thing was announced.
"Great minds talk about ideas, average minds talk about events, and small minds talk about people." - Eleanor Roosevelt "Americans used to roar like lions for liberty; now we bleat like sheep for security." -Norman Vincent Peale
A gear-centric raid funnels the majority of players into that miniscule part of the entire game world - the end game. If you don't participate, you will get left behind. There is no escape. As the game ages, the rest of the world will become obsolete. Just take a look at games with that design - old expansion zones are barren and old dungeons are taken for granted. It's a pity for all those developers and designers that worked hard on creating those desserted content.
I would prefer to tackle on challenges at a level playing field where tactics alone, not gear, would dictate the outcome of the battle.
Seriously theres a plethora of raid centric games on the market and are about to come on the market. IF YOU MSUT RAID THEN MAY I SUGGEST YOU GO THERE.
GW2 is not nor will it ever be a raid game, its why it is so hyped. SERIOUSLY people you need to knock this crap off its pointless and idiotic, get over the fact that GW2 will have a more old fashioned MMO feel to it with no raids.
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I am not sure, maybe. GW 1 kinda left me with a bitter taste in my mouth because there was no character progression at max level, and while GW 2 will probably be the same...it will have a strong world pvp element. World pvp is what is attracting me to GW 2 all the other flare will wear off quickly for me without any form of progression passed max level.
Though I voted "Never liked raiding to begin with", I could lean toward "Sure, as long as it's fun & challenging", if there were a consistent amount of other people who felt like this. The results of the poll look good for that, you'd just have to be able to sell that same idea to the rest of the GW2 community. The thought of actually going into an intensely difficult dungeon, with a small army, JUST for the fun and challenge of it and minus the crap of traditional raids...yeah, sign me up. I think a set-up like that would also take a lot of the pressure off. By pressure, I mean the pressure to succeed and score that piece of gear you "have to have" and not worry about some POS pulling a ninja or greeding on it. That's only if you're "lucky" and it drops on the first 1-8 times you run the instance. In the end, I don't think this type of raiding (the OP mentioned) would ruin or tarnish GW2, it could actually fit in with the grand scheme of things.
I will raid in whatever form they offer, as far as I understand it the open world area quests where the dragons and their spawns appear offer the closest thing to a raid. After seeing the "water drake" fight, and talking to a friend while he played it I think this offers a raiding experience without the "gear" requirement that so many people were carried through in other games that I've played.
I've raided in many games before and I really didn't receive gear considering the amount of people that were raiding and were "in line" for the gear, but I have done the whole raid for gear thing and it's fun but I have to say I've had way more fun raiding and laughing and having good times with friends, trying new things, new builds... I'd be especially interested in raiding/challenging instances if you could say five-man guardian it! or something for that matter. But it's not just about the loot, it's about the story involved (if there is one) titles, good times, friends, unfamiliar events, and last but not least, Bosses! ) hehe nice post thanks.
I would play them, but i hope they don't lose their time with that. I would like better more 5 man than raid. You don't need ot be 20 to do hard content.
Exactly. The only reason why 20+ man raid content is hard in MMOs, is because there is a greater chance of something going wrong in them.
Like recently in Rift I did a 5-man expert T2 dungeon run and it was nuts to solo-heal through. Gave my fingers a work out (cause I play Warden / Sentinel) and after it the other 4 members of the group thought I was a really good healer & decided to invite me to their Guild's raid that night. Now this was my 1st time raiding, so I really didn't know what to expect. But in the end it really wasn't anything special, because the mechanics were akin to what I was already doing in the expert dungeons and also because a quater of the group was composed of healers, I rarely had to do more than press 2 buttons, every 10 secs.
As for the difficultly, we ended up wiping mostly from idiots who didn't manage their pets properly or because people were just weren't paying attention.
So yeah, the only thing that makes raids more difficult is because there are people to help screw it up. ANet can make extremely difficult 5-man encounters by actually making them genuinely challenging.
Pretty much the story of my raiding life. Maybe a 20+ person raid for "just the fun and challenge" might attract a different kind of crowd, I don't know yet. It seems like traditional raids almost always end up w/people just like you mentioned. They want the prize at the end, but they don't want to make the actual effort to get it. It's much easier to let someone else do all the work, or do all the thinking and strategizing. Just too much of a letdown for me. Without any kind of enhanced loot there, the gimp crowd may not want to run these kinds of raids. Who knows, right?
I don't see the point in having your "Sure, but i wouldnt do it on farm mode" option, seeing how I specifically said that it will follow ArenaNet's philosophy (just like dungeons). So tell me, what exactly would you be forced to farm when after completing a raid (if they were to add raids) you will will be guaranteed a piece of gear. So doing a raid 5 or 6 times, at your own discretion, for gear you don't really need, is in no way farming raids. If it were then people would be farming Dungeons. Which is why I didn't need such an option.
If you're following ANet's philosophy, this poll has no sense. GW2 does already have some non instanced "raids" with World bosses and their trigger events. Real MMO raids. Even if it makes sense to you, doing the exactly same thing 5 or 6 times for fun isnt much different from farm mode. Just cause its "farm mode" dont they have fun with it?
There are players on korean MMOs that loves to kill 300 of the same mob. So why shouldnt have people that like to do the same raid for months?
What i mean, its when you put a option saying "Sure, as long as it's fun & challenging", you're basicaly mixing 3 kind of people.
- The ones that just want to see the content and will stop after completing it
- The ones that have an objective (gear/achievments/mounts/challenge...) and will stop after getting it. Their "fun" comes from an objective on the content.
- The ones that will keep doing it until the next xpac
As I have mentioned before, I raided to experience lore and share something fun with friends. Gear has never meant much to me when it comes to raid drops. I would gladly raid in whatever sence Anet might implement it in because I know it won't be the gear hampster wheel so to speak. Especially if it was challenging and fun.
Who cares if a casual game doesn't want to cater to hardcore raiders. Heaven forbid there be a single non-raiding MMO in the entire genre. Doesn't matter if there are no special drops for raids, the whole paradigm is not only nauseating, but it directly competes with casual / regular content for development time as well as boxing in the developer's ability to offer alternative content that doesn't diminish raiding content / rewards.
I would raid to check out the content.If its fun and challenging,maybe do it a couple times.Though Im sure it would become a ghost town of a feature rather quickly if there is no real point to raiding.
I think the status (in the form of titles/achievements) associated with completing challenging raid content would provide sufficient motivation to raid, provided the raids are fun and, well, challenging. Perhaps give raid dungeons their own unique skins, which wouldn't be any different from normal dungeons except that players willl associate these skins with the raids, thereby giving you something to wear as your badge of honor for completing the raid.
Personally, I'm not sure I could ever get back into the days of revovling real life around a raid schedule. I definitely enjoy challenging, organized large group content, and I loved being part of server first kills and such, but I think those days are in the past for me. I can't imagine feeling obligated to log on to a game at a particular time and being forced to play for 3 hours straight anymore.
Who cares if a casual game doesn't want to cater to hardcore raiders. Heaven forbid there be a single non-raiding MMO in the entire genre. Doesn't matter if there are no special drops for raids, the whole paradigm is not only nauseating, but it directly competes with casual / regular content for development time as well as boxing in the developer's ability to offer alternative content that doesn't diminish raiding content / rewards.
If I had any interest in PVE or rading at all then yes I would raid with the knowledge that there was to be no gear progression or reward at the end of it.
I pvp for the sake of pvp, not for some arbitrary score or equipment. If I enjoyed pve I would apply the same attitude to that as well.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
I voted "sure" at the start of the thread but after reading it, I'd retract that and wish there was a "guild wars 2 doesn't need raids" option.
It'd be cool to have raids that only awarded aesthetic or titles, see how many people would care enough to make it worth the dev time though.
The endgame dynamic events will entertain me tbh, everyone seems to be of the idea that dynamic events will be forever easy to wipe out the map with victory after victory. But since losing can form more events and content Anet won't be afraid of making it super difficult, since losing doesn't block your content progression, it just changes its direction.
Also WvWvW is going to rock my socks. I hope I can join it at level 2 and level through it :P
I am not sure, maybe. GW 1 kinda left me with a bitter taste in my mouth because there was no character progression at max level, and while GW 2 will probably be the same...it will have a strong world pvp element. World pvp is what is attracting me to GW 2 all the other flare will wear off quickly for me without any form of progression passed max level.
I can see why you would think there's no progression beyond 20 in GW1, but for me, the progression existed, but it had nothing to do with gear. You still gain XP, even after 20, and you still ding, even though the level display remains at 20. What you do get though is a skill point, which you can use to add to your repertoire of available skills, allowing you to expand the tactics and builds available to you.
You can collect skills for either of your active professions, which means, every character can eventually gain all the skills for all the professions. But most importantly, having a wide range of skills available gives you a much greater amount of verstaility than you would when you cap at 20. Normally when you hit 20, you might have a couple of decent builds available to you, but after a few months, you can have dozens across the spectrum of all profession combinations. And this is ignoring the hunting down and acquisition of Elite skills, which typically form the cornerstone of any build.
So progression is more lateral than vertical, but it does exist. In GW2, something like this will exist, but I'm not sure how it will work. I do know that capturing Elites won't be involved, which is something I'll miss.
Comments
I really don't want such dungeon raids at all.
Look how much development time and effort goes into 20 man raids in other games. Usually, they eat up all or close to all of the development time for new content released outside of expansions.
There is already Dynamic Event content in GW2 that requires up to 100 people or more. It's not on demand, but it's content everyone, from guilds, to pugs to soloists can all partake in. Let alone WvWvW, which has content and objectives beyond "kill the other faction".
I think if 20 man raid content ever comes into the game at all, that should be one of the few areas of play content that belongs in the GW2 store. Let it either survive via self funding of new development staff that work just on raids, or fail to exist because no one wants to pay for it.
I'm usually all for variety of content and options, even if I'm not interested in them myself, but knowing how big of a chunk of development time and resources would have to be spent to include them in free content updates, the result would be that we wouldn't get a whole lot of anything else.
I don't think most people are going to miss them with all the other things to do in the dynamic world of GW2. People who just love raiding have plenty of other gaming options.
I want ANet to focus on providing new and updated dynamic events, new five man dungeons, new personal story events, new places to explore and refinemements and additions to PVP and WvWvW in their free content releases, not 20 man Raids that leave them few resources to do anything else.
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Voted for the 1st option.
I raided in WoW for a while, but eventually hated it. The best gear becomes outclassed 6 months later when a new raid comes out. The new content makes you seem weaker. The bosses did not get better in AI, they just have more hp and hit harder. So it becomes a continual gear grind to keep players playing.
This is something I don't want GW2 to become. And I can see them being able to do a lot more with Dynamic Events and fighting epic bosses.
Main end game will be conquering in WvWvW. I am so glad that the continual loop of raid, gear up, new raid, raid, gear up is NOT in this game.
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I'm not 100% sure on this, but I have my doubts guild wars 2 will rely on any sort of gear grind, at least GW1 didn't.
GW1 is all about rare items, the funny thing is these rare items are just as good as any item you can buy from a merchant. But if you find a level 8 with perfect stats people will go nuts and pay everything to get it. The sword (for example) is still 11-22 with 15% damage when your health is above 50%, exactly like a merchant one.... but worth a lot more depending on it's rarity.
Its an interesting concept but guild wars (at least the first one) had progression based on skills and not gear. I really hope they follow this same trend in GW2. For the record, I don't know the be-all-end-all for GW2 and haven't really kept up on it, so I don't know if what I'm saying is common knowledge to those who haven't played the original or not... either way, I love the concept of this and think it's a great strategy. It also makes PVP much more balanced IMHO.
EDIT: I forgot to answer the OP LOL. Yes I would still raid for fun, assuming rare items and materials dropped that I can get more rare items (see above). I used to love places like UW and FoW and even though they're not "raids" the way the system is designed, you'd never get "better" gear from them (again, see above - I'm assuming original ~= GW2).
EDIT: Haha. Wrong topic.
If they added a new version of the Deep or Urgoz’s Warren into the game I would not mind, although I would prefer new 5 man dungeons.
If you can do the raid and its pretty fun and maybe you get some minor stuff (maybe cosmetic or non combat) and its not a chore then yeah. The current problem with raiding is that I have to raid with a bunch of other people on carefully planed nights that I usually cant make, and when I do make it I usually dont get what I need because there is only 1 item but so many people that needs it.
Yes...I don't care about gear really. I raided and did dungeons all the time in the evil "gear-centric" WoW and the first time I gave a crap about gear was the transmog thing was announced.
"Great minds talk about ideas, average minds talk about events, and small minds talk about people." - Eleanor Roosevelt
"Americans used to roar like lions for liberty; now we bleat like sheep for security." -Norman Vincent Peale
Yes, in fact I'd prefer it that way.
A gear-centric raid funnels the majority of players into that miniscule part of the entire game world - the end game. If you don't participate, you will get left behind. There is no escape. As the game ages, the rest of the world will become obsolete. Just take a look at games with that design - old expansion zones are barren and old dungeons are taken for granted. It's a pity for all those developers and designers that worked hard on creating those desserted content.
I would prefer to tackle on challenges at a level playing field where tactics alone, not gear, would dictate the outcome of the battle.
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO RAIDS EVAR!
Seriously theres a plethora of raid centric games on the market and are about to come on the market. IF YOU MSUT RAID THEN MAY I SUGGEST YOU GO THERE.
GW2 is not nor will it ever be a raid game, its why it is so hyped. SERIOUSLY people you need to knock this crap off its pointless and idiotic, get over the fact that GW2 will have a more old fashioned MMO feel to it with no raids.
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I am not sure, maybe. GW 1 kinda left me with a bitter taste in my mouth because there was no character progression at max level, and while GW 2 will probably be the same...it will have a strong world pvp element. World pvp is what is attracting me to GW 2 all the other flare will wear off quickly for me without any form of progression passed max level.
Though I voted "Never liked raiding to begin with", I could lean toward "Sure, as long as it's fun & challenging", if there were a consistent amount of other people who felt like this. The results of the poll look good for that, you'd just have to be able to sell that same idea to the rest of the GW2 community. The thought of actually going into an intensely difficult dungeon, with a small army, JUST for the fun and challenge of it and minus the crap of traditional raids...yeah, sign me up. I think a set-up like that would also take a lot of the pressure off. By pressure, I mean the pressure to succeed and score that piece of gear you "have to have" and not worry about some POS pulling a ninja or greeding on it. That's only if you're "lucky" and it drops on the first 1-8 times you run the instance. In the end, I don't think this type of raiding (the OP mentioned) would ruin or tarnish GW2, it could actually fit in with the grand scheme of things.
In Reply to the topic;
I will raid in whatever form they offer, as far as I understand it the open world area quests where the dragons and their spawns appear offer the closest thing to a raid. After seeing the "water drake" fight, and talking to a friend while he played it I think this offers a raiding experience without the "gear" requirement that so many people were carried through in other games that I've played.
Sic Luceat Lux
I've raided in many games before and I really didn't receive gear considering the amount of people that were raiding and were "in line" for the gear, but I have done the whole raid for gear thing and it's fun but I have to say I've had way more fun raiding and laughing and having good times with friends, trying new things, new builds... I'd be especially interested in raiding/challenging instances if you could say five-man guardian it! or something for that matter. But it's not just about the loot, it's about the story involved (if there is one) titles, good times, friends, unfamiliar events, and last but not least, Bosses!
) hehe nice post thanks.
Pretty much the story of my raiding life. Maybe a 20+ person raid for "just the fun and challenge" might attract a different kind of crowd, I don't know yet. It seems like traditional raids almost always end up w/people just like you mentioned. They want the prize at the end, but they don't want to make the actual effort to get it. It's much easier to let someone else do all the work, or do all the thinking and strategizing. Just too much of a letdown for me. Without any kind of enhanced loot there, the gimp crowd may not want to run these kinds of raids. Who knows, right?
If you're following ANet's philosophy, this poll has no sense. GW2 does already have some non instanced "raids" with World bosses and their trigger events. Real MMO raids. Even if it makes sense to you, doing the exactly same thing 5 or 6 times for fun isnt much different from farm mode. Just cause its "farm mode" dont they have fun with it?
There are players on korean MMOs that loves to kill 300 of the same mob. So why shouldnt have people that like to do the same raid for months?
What i mean, its when you put a option saying "Sure, as long as it's fun & challenging", you're basicaly mixing 3 kind of people.
- The ones that just want to see the content and will stop after completing it
- The ones that have an objective (gear/achievments/mounts/challenge...) and will stop after getting it. Their "fun" comes from an objective on the content.
- The ones that will keep doing it until the next xpac
As I have mentioned before, I raided to experience lore and share something fun with friends. Gear has never meant much to me when it comes to raid drops. I would gladly raid in whatever sence Anet might implement it in because I know it won't be the gear hampster wheel so to speak. Especially if it was challenging and fun.
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Who cares if a casual game doesn't want to cater to hardcore raiders. Heaven forbid there be a single non-raiding MMO in the entire genre. Doesn't matter if there are no special drops for raids, the whole paradigm is not only nauseating, but it directly competes with casual / regular content for development time as well as boxing in the developer's ability to offer alternative content that doesn't diminish raiding content / rewards.
I would raid to check out the content.If its fun and challenging,maybe do it a couple times.Though Im sure it would become a ghost town of a feature rather quickly if there is no real point to raiding.
I think the status (in the form of titles/achievements) associated with completing challenging raid content would provide sufficient motivation to raid, provided the raids are fun and, well, challenging. Perhaps give raid dungeons their own unique skins, which wouldn't be any different from normal dungeons except that players willl associate these skins with the raids, thereby giving you something to wear as your badge of honor for completing the raid.
Personally, I'm not sure I could ever get back into the days of revovling real life around a raid schedule. I definitely enjoy challenging, organized large group content, and I loved being part of server first kills and such, but I think those days are in the past for me. I can't imagine feeling obligated to log on to a game at a particular time and being forced to play for 3 hours straight anymore.
THIS ^^^^.
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If I had any interest in PVE or rading at all then yes I would raid with the knowledge that there was to be no gear progression or reward at the end of it.
I pvp for the sake of pvp, not for some arbitrary score or equipment. If I enjoyed pve I would apply the same attitude to that as well.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
I voted "sure" at the start of the thread but after reading it, I'd retract that and wish there was a "guild wars 2 doesn't need raids" option.
It'd be cool to have raids that only awarded aesthetic or titles, see how many people would care enough to make it worth the dev time though.
The endgame dynamic events will entertain me tbh, everyone seems to be of the idea that dynamic events will be forever easy to wipe out the map with victory after victory. But since losing can form more events and content Anet won't be afraid of making it super difficult, since losing doesn't block your content progression, it just changes its direction.
Also WvWvW is going to rock my socks. I hope I can join it at level 2 and level through it :P
<Welcome to my world>
I can see why you would think there's no progression beyond 20 in GW1, but for me, the progression existed, but it had nothing to do with gear. You still gain XP, even after 20, and you still ding, even though the level display remains at 20. What you do get though is a skill point, which you can use to add to your repertoire of available skills, allowing you to expand the tactics and builds available to you.
You can collect skills for either of your active professions, which means, every character can eventually gain all the skills for all the professions. But most importantly, having a wide range of skills available gives you a much greater amount of verstaility than you would when you cap at 20. Normally when you hit 20, you might have a couple of decent builds available to you, but after a few months, you can have dozens across the spectrum of all profession combinations. And this is ignoring the hunting down and acquisition of Elite skills, which typically form the cornerstone of any build.
So progression is more lateral than vertical, but it does exist. In GW2, something like this will exist, but I'm not sure how it will work. I do know that capturing Elites won't be involved, which is something I'll miss.