The fact that the very reason Dan is leaving is because he is moving on to a better job is proof that working at Cryptic isnt some kind of black mark on your resume. Someone obviously wanted to hire him knowing full well where he worked previously. There is no reason to think Zinc was any different, unless you actually have some kind of proof of him not being able to find another job.
To be realistic, it is NOT a fact that Dan is leaving to pursue a better job, that IS what Dan said but he has also been very secretive about what that new job is. Could it be he was given notice by PW at the beginning of September and was able to find a new job in SF during the last three weeks with the help of his fiance? The fact is, we dont really know what happened, all we know for sure is that Dan is leaving. As for the second point, do you have some proof of Zinc being able to find a job in the year he was gone? Surely any software developer that hired a former EP would have listed it in a PR article somewhere on the net? You cant ask me for proof without providing any to back your end either. Isnt that one of the rules of acquisition
I'm surprised that you have taken the stance that the problems of STO are all to blame on Atari. I remember a time when you questioned some of the things/decisions made by Cryptic. Can you honestly say that Cryptic has done a great job with STO and that it is a success in some way/shape/form? As a company, Cryptic has lost money since day one. The game was universally rated at 6 out of 10 or mediocre at best by all the real gaming sites/magazines. Klingons still have less than half the content the fed side has and then there is the fact of many senior people leaving the company.
I dont hold anything against Dan and I think he did an awesome job with what he was left with. I am sorry to see him go and I can understand how another company would want him after the display of hard work he put into the game. But Dan is the ONLY one out of all that have left that seemed like he had a bright future ahead of him.
One last thought about Zinc... You have seen the financials from Atari and know that Cryptic has been losing millions each year, its a fact. We heard many months ago that Atari was trying to sell Cryptic off. What GOOD developer with a bright future would want to go work for a company that was in that state of affairs over the summer? Seriously, if coding was your life would you move your family out and start working for a company in that condition? The only person who would do such a thing is someone looking for experience (a junior coder) or someone who was getting paid to turn it around (like a consultant) or someone who could not find work elsewhere. I would be willing to bet good money that Zinc took a heck of a pay cut to come back as COO and that he was not Cryptics first choice for that position. I work with people at the C-Level and I can tell you, we look at a company's financials and reputation before coming aboard.
"Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game." - SEANMCAD
Dan was quite possibly the most mediocre, unqualified individual that Cryptic had on the team.
I see this as good news, a step in the right direction.
I would beg to differ. I think Dan did an incredible job with what he was left with. He worked a lot, he would post on the boards at midnight and he tried to stay in touch with the community. I feel he wanted much more to happen with STO than he had the resources for. Creating something new is way easier than changing something already built and Dan got saddled with a mess. I think you will be seeing Dan's name again in a good way over the next decade.
"Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game." - SEANMCAD
Sounds to me like a wise move. I'd much rather make a polite exit while things are good, rather than wait for them to change.
Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now working in Network Security. I don't Forum PVP. If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident. When I don't understand, I ask. Such is not intended as criticism.
As for the second point, do you have some proof of Zinc being able to find a job in the year he was gone? Surely any software developer that hired a former EP would have listed it in a PR article somewhere on the net? You cant ask me for proof without providing any to back your end either.
Actually, the burden of proof lies with the person making the claim, not the person questioning it. You previously suggested that Craig couldnt find any other work. So since you are the person making the claim, then the burden of proof lies with you to support it. If you are interested in what "burden of proof" means, here is a link:
Why is it that as soon as someone moves on to another job the mmo community automatic makes fail doom and gloom posts. "OMG the game is truly fail if x and x left" or "he must not like whats going on in the game". They automatically ass-sume that something is wrong with the game or the worst. Sometimes its true, but not in all cases. Maybe the guy did a good job at Cryptic and decided to move on. Until Dan Stahl says different that's the way Im lookin at it.
***Raises plunger in salute to Dan Stahl***
Probably because STO is a trainwreck and has gone through how many producers so far?
Probably because STO is a trainwreck and has gone through how many producers so far?
Dan is the 2nd. Not that hard to keep up with.
So then whoever takes his place will be the third producer since the game launched. I'm sorry, but no matter how you spin it, that does not bode well for a game at all.
Interesting that Dan is leaving just before STO goes F2P. Even though he says he supports and always supported a move to f2p, I just wonder if new owners at Perfect Worlds didn't like what they were paying him and asked him to leave. This does not bode well for STO. STO has come a long ways under Dan's leadership since he took over. I just don't see it continuing.
Apparently it has nothing to do with that:
" I've been given the opportunity to start the next chapter in my career that allows me to combine many of my past experiences into something new. It will also allow my family to move into San Francisco where my beautiful Fiancee Kimberly has worked for years. "
Cant blame him either. When better job opportunities open up you should take them.
What is put out as the reason doesn't particularly mean that he isn't taking the opprotunity to just jump ship OR to give cover for his desire to leave to to friction with PW. No proof of this of course but it is just curious that he choose to leave or was not asked to stay longer by PW. Seems with the "big deal" that the F2P launch is that PW would want him to stay at least until that is launched. Since he will be gone by F2P launch, it looks much more like he ever wanted out to avoid the trainwreck OR PW wanted him out so that they can start doing things their way sooner.
I have very little faith in PW's ability to put together quality games. I have looked a a good number of what they have and I just don't see anything the quality of STO at the moment. I just think they will have a certain way they are going to do things and that way will not fall within the "vision" that Dan had for the game. My opinion of course and we may never know Dan's take for sure regardless of what is being said right now.
Probably because STO is a trainwreck and has gone through how many producers so far?
Dan is the 2nd. Not that hard to keep up with.
So then whoever takes his place will be the third producer since the game launched. I'm sorry, but no matter how you spin it, that does not bode well for a game at all.
Yep, that math does = 3, your right about that. What you are forgetting though(or simply dont know) is that Cryptic was recently purchased by Perfect World, which is actually a bigger company than Blizzard and is making a huge profit. So while I dont disagree STO has had a troubled past under Atari, its probably in the best shape its ever been now under new ownership. Atari was so far in debt they had to use the majority of the 50 mil PW paid for Cryptic just to pay off debt. PW actually has the resources necessary to full support its games.
That was a terrible move, Zinc was the brainiac responsible for many of the terrible choices made to STO like having 15 different types of currency and releasing the Klingons with very little content.
Incorrect; according to multiple interviews he has given, Jack Emmert was the one that insisted that the Klingons be in there at launch.
"Oh my, how horrible, someone is criticizing a MMO. Oh yeah, that is what a forum is about, looking at both sides. You rather have to be critical of anything in this genre as of late because the track record of these major studios has just been appalling." -Ozmodan
IMO, Cryptic hasn't been doing well at all. City of Heroes was the best game they produced. Champions Online was the spiritual sequel to CoH but wasn't recieved as well. STO, give me a break. Look, if you hate Atari then hate it but don't try this BS of blaming Cryptic's problems on Atari. You can't get away with that here.
Why exactly is that? The only difference between COH and Champs/STO was Atari. So what makes you so certain that Atari had absolutely nothing to do with Cryptic's sudden change?
For starters, Cryptic came up with (and was widely touting) quickly mass-producing AAA MMOs before Atari came on board.
"Oh my, how horrible, someone is criticizing a MMO. Oh yeah, that is what a forum is about, looking at both sides. You rather have to be critical of anything in this genre as of late because the track record of these major studios has just been appalling." -Ozmodan
Dan was quite possibly the most mediocre, unqualified individual that Cryptic had on the team.
I see this as good news, a step in the right direction.
Umm, no. That would be Jack Emmert.
"Oh my, how horrible, someone is criticizing a MMO. Oh yeah, that is what a forum is about, looking at both sides. You rather have to be critical of anything in this genre as of late because the track record of these major studios has just been appalling." -Ozmodan
Why exactly is that? The only difference between COH and Champs/STO was Atari. So what makes you so certain that Atari had absolutely nothing to do with Cryptic's sudden change?
That's not entirely true. When Cryptic split with NCSoft, most all their talented staff stayed with NCSoft and formed Paragon Studios. One could argue that is why CoH is still going strong today.
Jack Emmert and Craig Zinc were notorious for spin doctoring, backpedaling, outright lying and the like back in the Cryptic CoH days as well. Personally, I don't doubt that Atari made some poor decisions, yet I don't blame Atari for all Cryptic's failings either.
Actually, the burden of proof lies with the person making the claim, not the person questioning it. You previously suggested that Craig couldnt find any other work. So since you are the person making the claim, then the burden of proof lies with you to support it. If you are interested in what "burden of proof" means, here is a link:
Nagus, as long as my post was, this is the only point you can contend? Your slipping mate, but I still love ya.
I offer the lack of evidence of Zinc being hired as my proof that Zinc could not find a job with another company. Surely if Zinc had been hired by another company they would have made notice of hiring a former EP from a supposedly AAA MMO. You can follow all the major players around from company to company and yet no mention of Zinc for a year. While not concrete evidence of my point, it is circumstantial enough to support my claim since you offer no evidence to the contrary.
"Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game." - SEANMCAD
Incorrect; according to multiple interviews he has given, Jack Emmert was the one that insisted that the Klingons be in there at launch.
Thanks for the correction. I really hope that someday, someone comes forward like Ralph Koster did and fills us all in on the actual events leading up to STO. I would like to know for sure who was the person that felt having 15 different currencies in the game that were only good for short periods of time was.
"Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game." - SEANMCAD
I offer the lack of evidence of Zinc being hired as my proof that Zinc could not find a job with another company. Surely if Zinc had been hired by another company they would have made notice of hiring a former EP from a supposedly AAA MMO. You can follow all the major players around from company to company and yet no mention of Zinc for a year. While not concrete evidence of my point, it is circumstantial enough to support my claim since you offer no evidence to the contrary.
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. If you are going to claim that someone couldnt find a job, then you actually need proof that they tried and were turned down. If you actually go back and read Craig's departing letter he said he wanted time off, which would imply he wasnt looking for another job. So I am still waiting for your proof to support your claim that he couldnt find another job, and that is the only reason he came back to Cryptic.
STO has been garbage since the day it released and whatever improvements they've slowly dribbled out to us since then have been too little too late. They took a potentially GREAT IP that is supposed to revolve around exploration and turned it into a "blue graphical" hot mess with a loading screen every other minute and a 10x10 box of re-hashed ugly enviroments that are supposed to represent an entire planet to explore.
Way to drive a great IP into the ground, you awful, awful people.
Thanks for the correction. I really hope that someday, someone comes forward like Ralph Koster did and fills us all in on the actual events leading up to STO. I would like to know for sure who was the person that felt having 15 different currencies in the game that were only good for short periods of time was.
I can't speak about the currencies, but Jack Emmert has stated multiple times that he believes that "If it isn't in at launch, you're not going to have it." Thus he insisted that the Klingons be added in before launch, when the devs clearly didn't have time to finish up the Federation side. According to comments he has made in interviews about the NWN O.M.G., he also seems to be the one that insists every region in the games they make be broken up into instances.
"Oh my, how horrible, someone is criticizing a MMO. Oh yeah, that is what a forum is about, looking at both sides. You rather have to be critical of anything in this genre as of late because the track record of these major studios has just been appalling." -Ozmodan
STO was P2W from the start and as MMORPG's go is a pretty p*** poor attempt considering the IP. I gave the free trial a shot sometime back and uninstalled after 20 mins of mind numbing boredom. This guy leaving makes no difference as STO is nothing more than a stodgy turd in the gutter of the MMORPG highway.
FACT!
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
Comments
Dan was quite possibly the most mediocre, unqualified individual that Cryptic had on the team.
I see this as good news, a step in the right direction.
Commander Kruge: GET OUT! GET OUT OF THERE! GET OUT!
To be realistic, it is NOT a fact that Dan is leaving to pursue a better job, that IS what Dan said but he has also been very secretive about what that new job is. Could it be he was given notice by PW at the beginning of September and was able to find a new job in SF during the last three weeks with the help of his fiance? The fact is, we dont really know what happened, all we know for sure is that Dan is leaving. As for the second point, do you have some proof of Zinc being able to find a job in the year he was gone? Surely any software developer that hired a former EP would have listed it in a PR article somewhere on the net? You cant ask me for proof without providing any to back your end either. Isnt that one of the rules of acquisition
I'm surprised that you have taken the stance that the problems of STO are all to blame on Atari. I remember a time when you questioned some of the things/decisions made by Cryptic. Can you honestly say that Cryptic has done a great job with STO and that it is a success in some way/shape/form? As a company, Cryptic has lost money since day one. The game was universally rated at 6 out of 10 or mediocre at best by all the real gaming sites/magazines. Klingons still have less than half the content the fed side has and then there is the fact of many senior people leaving the company.
I dont hold anything against Dan and I think he did an awesome job with what he was left with. I am sorry to see him go and I can understand how another company would want him after the display of hard work he put into the game. But Dan is the ONLY one out of all that have left that seemed like he had a bright future ahead of him.
One last thought about Zinc... You have seen the financials from Atari and know that Cryptic has been losing millions each year, its a fact. We heard many months ago that Atari was trying to sell Cryptic off. What GOOD developer with a bright future would want to go work for a company that was in that state of affairs over the summer? Seriously, if coding was your life would you move your family out and start working for a company in that condition? The only person who would do such a thing is someone looking for experience (a junior coder) or someone who was getting paid to turn it around (like a consultant) or someone who could not find work elsewhere. I would be willing to bet good money that Zinc took a heck of a pay cut to come back as COO and that he was not Cryptics first choice for that position. I work with people at the C-Level and I can tell you, we look at a company's financials and reputation before coming aboard.
-- at which point he will leave to "pursue new challenges" --
Those of us who work in large corporations know what that means...asked to leave.
Maybe someone at Cryptic finally grew a brain.
I would beg to differ. I think Dan did an incredible job with what he was left with. He worked a lot, he would post on the boards at midnight and he tried to stay in touch with the community. I feel he wanted much more to happen with STO than he had the resources for. Creating something new is way easier than changing something already built and Dan got saddled with a mess. I think you will be seeing Dan's name again in a good way over the next decade.
Sounds to me like a wise move. I'd much rather make a polite exit while things are good, rather than wait for them to change.
Actually, the burden of proof lies with the person making the claim, not the person questioning it. You previously suggested that Craig couldnt find any other work. So since you are the person making the claim, then the burden of proof lies with you to support it. If you are interested in what "burden of proof" means, here is a link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophic_burden_of_proof
Probably because STO is a trainwreck and has gone through how many producers so far?
Dan is the 2nd. Not that hard to keep up with.
So then whoever takes his place will be the third producer since the game launched. I'm sorry, but no matter how you spin it, that does not bode well for a game at all.
What is put out as the reason doesn't particularly mean that he isn't taking the opprotunity to just jump ship OR to give cover for his desire to leave to to friction with PW. No proof of this of course but it is just curious that he choose to leave or was not asked to stay longer by PW. Seems with the "big deal" that the F2P launch is that PW would want him to stay at least until that is launched. Since he will be gone by F2P launch, it looks much more like he ever wanted out to avoid the trainwreck OR PW wanted him out so that they can start doing things their way sooner.
I have very little faith in PW's ability to put together quality games. I have looked a a good number of what they have and I just don't see anything the quality of STO at the moment. I just think they will have a certain way they are going to do things and that way will not fall within the "vision" that Dan had for the game. My opinion of course and we may never know Dan's take for sure regardless of what is being said right now.
Let's party like it is 1863!
Yep, that math does = 3, your right about that. What you are forgetting though(or simply dont know) is that Cryptic was recently purchased by Perfect World, which is actually a bigger company than Blizzard and is making a huge profit. So while I dont disagree STO has had a troubled past under Atari, its probably in the best shape its ever been now under new ownership. Atari was so far in debt they had to use the majority of the 50 mil PW paid for Cryptic just to pay off debt. PW actually has the resources necessary to full support its games.
Oh thats fine, your completely entitled to your opinion. However there are literally millions of people playing their games who disagree with you.
Funny, I'm getting a weird Shatner vibe from that pic.
Incorrect; according to multiple interviews he has given, Jack Emmert was the one that insisted that the Klingons be in there at launch.
"Oh my, how horrible, someone is criticizing a MMO. Oh yeah, that is what a forum is about, looking at both sides. You rather have to be critical of anything in this genre as of late because the track record of these major studios has just been appalling." -Ozmodan
For starters, Cryptic came up with (and was widely touting) quickly mass-producing AAA MMOs before Atari came on board.
"Oh my, how horrible, someone is criticizing a MMO. Oh yeah, that is what a forum is about, looking at both sides. You rather have to be critical of anything in this genre as of late because the track record of these major studios has just been appalling." -Ozmodan
Umm, no. That would be Jack Emmert.
"Oh my, how horrible, someone is criticizing a MMO. Oh yeah, that is what a forum is about, looking at both sides. You rather have to be critical of anything in this genre as of late because the track record of these major studios has just been appalling." -Ozmodan
That's not entirely true. When Cryptic split with NCSoft, most all their talented staff stayed with NCSoft and formed Paragon Studios. One could argue that is why CoH is still going strong today.
Jack Emmert and Craig Zinc were notorious for spin doctoring, backpedaling, outright lying and the like back in the Cryptic CoH days as well. Personally, I don't doubt that Atari made some poor decisions, yet I don't blame Atari for all Cryptic's failings either.
Nagus, as long as my post was, this is the only point you can contend? Your slipping mate, but I still love ya.
I offer the lack of evidence of Zinc being hired as my proof that Zinc could not find a job with another company. Surely if Zinc had been hired by another company they would have made notice of hiring a former EP from a supposedly AAA MMO. You can follow all the major players around from company to company and yet no mention of Zinc for a year. While not concrete evidence of my point, it is circumstantial enough to support my claim since you offer no evidence to the contrary.
Thanks for the correction. I really hope that someday, someone comes forward like Ralph Koster did and fills us all in on the actual events leading up to STO. I would like to know for sure who was the person that felt having 15 different currencies in the game that were only good for short periods of time was.
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. If you are going to claim that someone couldnt find a job, then you actually need proof that they tried and were turned down. If you actually go back and read Craig's departing letter he said he wanted time off, which would imply he wasnt looking for another job. So I am still waiting for your proof to support your claim that he couldnt find another job, and that is the only reason he came back to Cryptic.
STO has been garbage since the day it released and whatever improvements they've slowly dribbled out to us since then have been too little too late. They took a potentially GREAT IP that is supposed to revolve around exploration and turned it into a "blue graphical" hot mess with a loading screen every other minute and a 10x10 box of re-hashed ugly enviroments that are supposed to represent an entire planet to explore.
Way to drive a great IP into the ground, you awful, awful people.
I can't speak about the currencies, but Jack Emmert has stated multiple times that he believes that "If it isn't in at launch, you're not going to have it." Thus he insisted that the Klingons be added in before launch, when the devs clearly didn't have time to finish up the Federation side. According to comments he has made in interviews about the NWN O.M.G., he also seems to be the one that insists every region in the games they make be broken up into instances.
"Oh my, how horrible, someone is criticizing a MMO. Oh yeah, that is what a forum is about, looking at both sides. You rather have to be critical of anything in this genre as of late because the track record of these major studios has just been appalling." -Ozmodan
And here is proof that Dan wasnt fired as some think:
http://forums.startrekonline.com/showthread.php?p=3769999#post3769999
STO was P2W from the start and as MMORPG's go is a pretty p*** poor attempt considering the IP. I gave the free trial a shot sometime back and uninstalled after 20 mins of mind numbing boredom. This guy leaving makes no difference as STO is nothing more than a stodgy turd in the gutter of the MMORPG highway.
FACT!
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience"
CS Lewis