I really enjoy what Iron Realms did with the 'end game' in their MMOs. Achaea especially, where you can transform into a Dragon at level 99 and you get special dragon skills to PvP with.
The community is very deep in its roleplay so at any point during your characters life you can take decide to run for election of your guild or your city. Its really a constantly evolving world so there is no end-game because the gameplay and overall storyline of the game is driven by the players.
I enjoyed Dark Age of Camelots Realm Keeps/Relics and their effect on the gameworld.
The Darkness Falls (DF) Dungeons were, in my opinion, the best feature ever added to a PvP game.
Only the Realm with the most keeps had the entrance unlocked. But when it switched hands the high level players would swarm in and fight their way to the previous realms side, slaughtering everyone still hunting in there.
So for a while many players just took Keeps until they got DF, then went in to fight. The other side would do the same. An endles, wonderfully fun cycle!
I hear people constantly bitching and moaning about end game content. (Because most people forget the journey to end game and focus on it too much, imho). Well what would you do to make end game better?
Nothing you can do with wow-clones other than increase level cap, like in.....wow.
Maybe when we one day finally getting a real dynamic world en deformation of the ground we have endless changing world to play.
Storm's, tornado's, earthquake's, tsunami's or vulcano's changing world completely and we have constantly new challenge in end game citys destroys hunting grounds changed.
Also roaming mobs and i mean they can live in large area not like now on small spot and never leave that small area. Npc or humanoid mobs who also can build or ocupied lands spaces like caves.
For example you clear out a dungeon and some humanoid tribe see cave is empty and deside to live in that dungeon you cleared a few hours ago.
A real dynamic world would be one of means to constantly change end game.
Make mmo's a real adventure again instead of the hold hand follow game guidance we have now in most mmo's.
^ This
It would be tough using current technology, but I'd love to see a fully dynamic world.
Luckily, a lot of the work can be done with an algorithm invented ages ago. It takes a few small pieces of land/trees/bushes/grass/etc and creates huge landscapes or even worlds. Take it further and it shouldn't be too difficult to represent the destructive path of a tornado properly.
Take "crafting" to the next level as well. I want to head into the frozen north and build myself a fortress in the side of a mountain, only to turn into a pale, frigid version of my former self due to the harsh atmosphere. I want to see a bunch of NPCs create a temple for a false god and stage a war on civilization using their endless horde of religious fanatics.
"Diplomacy" sucks in games. I want to befriend a tribe of warriors, then challenge their leader for control of the tribe and use my new army to fight a rival player-controlled faction. Or tame a giant cat beast and ride it into battle.
"Skills" are awful. Give me an endlessly customizable skill set, and let NPCs use it too. Piss off a five year old girl? "Suzy kicks you in the shin. You take 2 damage." I want my frost and ice skills to be more powerful in my frozen fortress of the north. I want enemy fire skills to be less powerful.
I could go on and on, but the point is, so much more can be done with games. Corporate greed needs to die.
My game would be PvP, and the game would have an actual end when one kingdom defeated the other 5 or 6 kingdoms. You want to play for weeks, or months, or limit how much time people can play, there would be different servers. So the end game is simply winning the game, nothing more. High scores and statistics would remain on the web but you'd start over, choosing a different style of play or role for your kingdom and go at it again, from scratch. Only the most organized teams would succeed in building up the kingdom through a dozen or so roles (not just strictly combat) until the best 2 kingdoms fought it out for dominance.
The developers would expand the game by improving randomness of everything and add features and skills and whatnot, but not focus on new bosses or dungeons or item grinds. Their focus would be on improving the gameplay for replayability, which is infinitely better than sitting around talking with psychologists and sales experts about how they can develop a new grind to keep people playing.
I hear people constantly bitching and moaning about end game content. (Because most people forget the journey to end game and focus on it too much, imho). Well what would you do to make end game better?
Simple...there just wouldn't be one. Constant journey, endlessly new areas to explore, etc...as it should be.
Just as EQ has done with it's now 17 expansions. Of course, making it a bit more difficult to keep people from capping in a month or less would help...but then again...then most would cry it takes too long and is too hard. /eyeroll
This, ideally there should not be an end game the leveling balance should be such that by the time the average player reaches the end game new content is available.
- Item decay. Items eventually break down and have to be replaced. Thus keeping the economy running and allowing worthwhile end-game crafting
- Horizontal progression. Maximum power should be reached easily, but after that there should be lots of options to expand without any bounds of classes. Think of tabletop wargaming, you can only field an army of 1500pts but the more models you collect the more ways you have of filling those 1500pts, each army being suited to different tasks and playstyles.
- Randomly generated dungeons. With item decay there will be a constant demand for high-end materials, these should be found in randomly generated dungeons. Based on the entering party a scaled dungeon is generated complete with random bosses with random mechanics, hidden treasures and who knows what else.
- Open world PvP objectives. There should be several open world PvP objectives that can be captured or raided by the in-game factions (more then two please... possibly a renegade faction that's not a single faction but instead made up out of individual guilds at war with everyone, including other renegades). Captured objectives provide a constant small source of good crafting materials to the owning faction (or in case of renegades, guild) that can be picked up by any faction members. Capturing objectives grants a medium crafting material reward and transfers control. Raiding objectives grants a big crafting material reward, temporarily stops that objective's crafting mats supply but does not transfer control.
- Player-owned flying ships. Combining a player-owned house (inside the ship, the cabin) with a mount (driving the ship). Trophies and such can be hung outside your ship or in your cabin. Friends can be invited into your cabin. Guilds can own larger ships with multiple rooms and such. Ship floats so can be parked anywhere without obstructing passage (walk underneath or fly your ship over it). These ships are persistent while logged in and can be damaged, when HP reaches 0 it's not destroyed but instead drastically slowed until repaired. Should have some combat abilities that only work on specific targets (not other players, but other ships yes). Mainly a flying mount that's also your house.
- More lively AI. Most wildlife doesn't stuck to one spot but predators locate the nearest prey and hunt. Prey try to travel in herds and avoid predators. etc. There should still be static outposts and such for socialisation, trade and new players but most of the 'filler' content that's not directly related to some sort of main storyline, the main hubs or otherwise necessary content should be made more dynamic. Combined with horizontal progression meaning that maximum power is easily reached it's no big problem if strong enemies wander into weaker zones.
We are the bunny. Resistance is futile. ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\ ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o) (")("),,(")("),(")(")
Remove the end game. Remove leveling. Remove elite gear that can only be obtained if you belong to a large enough guild or have access to the free time needed to get it. Make a beautiful game skill based and open the world for all and don't isolate players with an artificial caste system.
- Make the gap between a starting player and a maxed player far smaller than it is now.
- Go skills based and allow players to max every skill if they choose, but design it so that players can only play a certain role at a time. (Ex: Tie combat into the weapon equipped, and each weapon has a unique role). Players can now grind for a long time if they want to max all the trees, or players with less time or desire can just max a couple of key lines. The player who maxed all lines may be slightly more powerful, but their main advantage would be that they can fill many roles where the casual player may have only mastered one. So long as there are many skills you may never have to increase the skill cap, though you could occasionally add new skill lines.
- Generated Epic Quests, Dungeons, Bosses and Raid Bosses to keep players easy and to keep content from being the same old thing over and over.
- In a PvP based game you'd also need sieges or something to keep players occupied.
- Many optional gameplay types that can keep a player busy. Not just combat. Allow them to upgrade housing, build structures, upgrade vehicles, or play other mini-game types to keep them occupied.
I hear people constantly bitching and moaning about end game content. (Because most people forget the journey to end game and focus on it too much, imho). Well what would you do to make end game better?
Simple...there just wouldn't be one. Constant journey, endlessly new areas to explore, etc...as it should be.
Just as EQ has done with it's now 17 expansions. Of course, making it a bit more difficult to keep people from capping in a month or less would help...but then again...then most would cry it takes too long and is too hard. /eyeroll
Agree, I really don't get the whole end game thing. End game to me means stop playing untill more content is released, unless it's a sandbox of course with tons of things to do (one can dream no).
What about offspring - yes your character can have children.
These 'children' grow up alongside your main character picking up the traits of their 'parents' and developing into either a hybrid type character where the 'parents' are of different classes, or eventually becoming more powerful versions of their parents where both parents are of the same class.
One parent is obviously the character that you play, the other could be either an 'alt' that you play (maybe even somebody elses player character) or an NPC.
Your 'child' could accompany your main character and gain xp along the way (much like a pet), or you could choose to play the 'child' at any point, maybe taking their destiny/skills in a different direction.
Just a basic concept, needs work and balance could be an issue, but I think it has legs.
- Horizontal progression. Maximum power should be reached easily, but after that there should be lots of options to expand without any bounds of classes
I prefer games that have no endgame content. I like the games that concentrate on leveling, and it takes years to reach max level. An example of this is a game I've been playing a lot of recently; Priston Tale.
With games that have endgame content, like WoW, they just keep coming up with a new expansion, or patch, and you do the same thing all over again. Don't get me wrong, leveling is the same thing over and over again, but at least it doesn't pretend to be otherwise.
Remove the end game. Remove leveling. Remove elite gear that can only be obtained if you belong to a large enough guild or have access to the free time needed to get it. Make a beautiful game skill based and open the world for all and don't isolate players with an artificial caste system.
Yeah, it is one way doing it that would work even though I prefer a mix between skill based and stat based.
Stats used to matter, they are very important in every single P&P game including D&D but in MMO only some games have them at all, and they matter little in the games still having them (like EQ2.
I would also add a lot more none combat things to the game. Ever played the old "Theif" games? Imagine that with a group of 5 thiefs sneaking into a castle or something? It would be very different but not hard to add, and it would be really fun.
MMOs are all about combat, and combat should be fun but there are alternatives to just killing stuff. My favorite MMO quest ever is a AoC quest were you interigate 3 suspects to figure out who is a thief, it could be solved by brains or by the right kind of threats, while building an entire game on stuff like that wouldn't work some things like it makes the game more varied and fun.
In the old Pen-and-paper mode, the Dungeon Master (DM) thinks of a ways to keep the game interesting, challenging, and rewarding.
What were missing is a good DM AI, instead we have mindless AI who's doing the same exact predictable action when a phase threshold is met.
"Ok phase 2, we run back and forth and avoid the fire" -- Lame AI.
If the game is made with adaptable and smart AI, no need to make them the mobs "elite" by buffing stats, instead we'll have an Elite Mob because it is smart. It keeps players on their toes.
So how would this change the "endgame"?
With this type of gameplay, everyone will look forward to another challenge. No end game in sight.
In the old Pen-and-paper mode, the Dungeon Master (DM) thinks of a ways to keep the game interesting, challenging, and rewarding.
What were missing is a good DM AI, instead we have mindless AI who's doing the same exact predictable action when a phase threshold is met.
"Ok phase 2, we run back and forth and avoid the fire" -- Lame AI.
If the game is made with adaptable and smart AI, no need to make them the mobs "elite" by buffing stats, instead we'll have an Elite Mob because it is smart. It keeps players on their toes.
So how would this change the "endgame"?
With this type of gameplay, everyone will look forward to another challenge. No end game in sight.
I completely agree with your overall thought here. But I've always felt that GMs should be a big part of this too. Instead of constantly working on the next set of levels, quests, and "End Game" content, GMs should be working on the next set of plot lines, mysteries, and goals of enemies and friends of the players. Add in your AI to make a widespread event spread, and link them together in a sort of strategy mode with the GMs, and you have the capability of making a very exciting game world.
Keep in mind that you need a world that isn't separated by level zones for anything other than level grind to work.
Edit to add: Keep in mind also that the current sort of game developers we see in the industry and here on these boards are incapable of comprehending this.
I love the challenges where you have to use your mind. That's why KOTOR is so good. You can diffuse situations by simply talking, or using force if you prefer. If they could introduce this element into MMO's it would be amazing.
It would be nice to have the option to attempt diplomacy rather than 'kill 20 of XXmonsterXX' It's all about adding more features and elements.
If this was a feature you could get through an MMO without fighting much, you'd just be a diplomat. It'd be like real life, where the people in power do not fight themselves, they worm their ideas into people and have those people fight for them.
Remove the end game. Remove leveling. Remove elite gear that can only be obtained if you belong to a large enough guild or have access to the free time needed to get it. Make a beautiful game skill based and open the world for all and don't isolate players with an artificial caste system.
Yeah, it is one way doing it that would work even though I prefer a mix between skill based and stat based.
Stats used to matter, they are very important in every single P&P game including D&D but in MMO only some games have them at all, and they matter little in the games still having them (like EQ2.
I would also add a lot more none combat things to the game. Ever played the old "Theif" games? Imagine that with a group of 5 thiefs sneaking into a castle or something? It would be very different but not hard to add, and it would be really fun.
MMOs are all about combat, and combat should be fun but there are alternatives to just killing stuff. My favorite MMO quest ever is a AoC quest were you interigate 3 suspects to figure out who is a thief, it could be solved by brains or by the right kind of threats, while building an entire game on stuff like that wouldn't work some things like it makes the game more varied and fun.
I think that "stat based" part is a key compnent to making a really good Sandbox game experience. Many things the players should be able to do should be completely stat vs. objective.
For example:
Your Strength vs. the weight of a boulder or massive stone door.
Your Intelligence vs. understanding and learning what's in a book (skill, magic, or whatever).
Your Agility vs. walking a tightrope.
Your Dexterity vs. throwing an object at something.
Then you can add in skills to supplement specific aspects. For example you can add a Tightrope Walking skill and make it half and half to accomplish the task at up to double effectiveness. And you can add an Axe Throwing skill to do the same.
So, in other words, depending on the action, the roll might be 1xStat, 1/2xStat, 1/2Stat+1/2Skill, 1xSkill, and modified by particular circumstances.
I hear people constantly bitching and moaning about end game content. (Because most people forget the journey to end game and focus on it too much, imho). Well what would you do to make end game better?
Why does there need to be an end-game? Fact of the matter is that there is, with the majority of multiplayer games over the last several years, this end-game reality interjected by the development studios while manufacturing false massively-multiplayer online games, but providing single-player rpg's with a few redundant cooperative-online game elements.
You'd think that over several years of ~70% of seeing box purchasers for these supposed "massively-multiplayer" products cancelling their subscription 6-months to a year-out would be reason enough to re-think the gaming mechanics model, or wanting to at least to maintain more of a majority of their consumer-base. But the studios dont, time and time again.
"Content" in these traditionally supposed MMO's means a linear activity for players which expires once the content is completed -- the most obvious examples being raids, dungeons, and quests. Not only is there little replay value, but what's left of it diminishes rapidly, and players demand more content; content that studios never deliver on to justify paying a monthly subscription of $15/month for these actual single-player / cooperative-online multiplayer games.
Most players that I have read or interacted with are more interested in more sandboxy gaming environments, as opposed to fleeting single/cooperative play games with the same funneled and instanced content but wrapped in a different window dressing. Notice how I mentioned sandboxy as opposed to sandbox. There's a difference. It's important to focus new development on community/player-base centric features of the game which expand the range of community-focus, presence, cooperation, competitiveness, territorial management, crafting, merchandising, and economy (just to name a few) within a more sandboxy core game-play environment, with mechanics and tools or new types of gameplay for players to engage in as a community; that as opposed to the heavy emphasis on the linear single-player-esque & npc restrictive environment
I would probably have casinos. It would suck virtual currency out of the game, and keep people playing the game. I don't think I'd have anything like slot machines though. If possible, nothing but physics or card based games of 'chance'.
The best part would be I wouldn't have to cheat at all. No weighted dice, no magnets under the roulette wheel, etc. If somebody won a kabillion in game copper pieces, who cares?
Then again, that's probably a horrible idea and I've just grown cynical about end game content.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
- Make the gap between a starting player and a maxed player far smaller than it is now.
- Go skills based and allow players to max every skill if they choose, but design it so that players can only play a certain role at a time. (Ex: Tie combat into the weapon equipped, and each weapon has a unique role). Players can now grind for a long time if they want to max all the trees, or players with less time or desire can just max a couple of key lines. The player who maxed all lines may be slightly more powerful, but their main advantage would be that they can fill many roles where the casual player may have only mastered one. So long as there are many skills you may never have to increase the skill cap, though you could occasionally add new skill lines.
- Generated Epic Quests, Dungeons, Bosses and Raid Bosses to keep players easy and to keep content from being the same old thing over and over.
- In a PvP based game you'd also need sieges or something to keep players occupied.
- Many optional gameplay types that can keep a player busy. Not just combat. Allow them to upgrade housing, build structures, upgrade vehicles, or play other mini-game types to keep them occupied.
Exactly. Have it so that end game isn't defined, there simply is no end to what you can do.
I've thought up a way to progress with a soft to hard cap as well as a means to switch roles. No one role can beat every other role but you can change roles if you wish. That's how you avoid this end game hole that always has to be plugged with more content.
I think it's kind of fun what we observe in this thread--the expectation for one game to entertain one player on one toon forever.
No wonder people are dissatisfied with MMOs, MMOs fail utterly to do the impossible.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Comments
Take it out.
I really enjoy what Iron Realms did with the 'end game' in their MMOs. Achaea especially, where you can transform into a Dragon at level 99 and you get special dragon skills to PvP with.
The community is very deep in its roleplay so at any point during your characters life you can take decide to run for election of your guild or your city. Its really a constantly evolving world so there is no end-game because the gameplay and overall storyline of the game is driven by the players.
I enjoyed Dark Age of Camelots Realm Keeps/Relics and their effect on the gameworld.
The Darkness Falls (DF) Dungeons were, in my opinion, the best feature ever added to a PvP game.
Only the Realm with the most keeps had the entrance unlocked. But when it switched hands the high level players would swarm in and fight their way to the previous realms side, slaughtering everyone still hunting in there.
So for a while many players just took Keeps until they got DF, then went in to fight. The other side would do the same. An endles, wonderfully fun cycle!
Nothing you can do with wow-clones other than increase level cap, like in.....wow.
^ This
It would be tough using current technology, but I'd love to see a fully dynamic world.
Luckily, a lot of the work can be done with an algorithm invented ages ago. It takes a few small pieces of land/trees/bushes/grass/etc and creates huge landscapes or even worlds. Take it further and it shouldn't be too difficult to represent the destructive path of a tornado properly.
Take "crafting" to the next level as well. I want to head into the frozen north and build myself a fortress in the side of a mountain, only to turn into a pale, frigid version of my former self due to the harsh atmosphere. I want to see a bunch of NPCs create a temple for a false god and stage a war on civilization using their endless horde of religious fanatics.
"Diplomacy" sucks in games. I want to befriend a tribe of warriors, then challenge their leader for control of the tribe and use my new army to fight a rival player-controlled faction. Or tame a giant cat beast and ride it into battle.
"Skills" are awful. Give me an endlessly customizable skill set, and let NPCs use it too. Piss off a five year old girl? "Suzy kicks you in the shin. You take 2 damage." I want my frost and ice skills to be more powerful in my frozen fortress of the north. I want enemy fire skills to be less powerful.
I could go on and on, but the point is, so much more can be done with games. Corporate greed needs to die.
Sarcasm is not a crime!
My game would be PvP, and the game would have an actual end when one kingdom defeated the other 5 or 6 kingdoms. You want to play for weeks, or months, or limit how much time people can play, there would be different servers. So the end game is simply winning the game, nothing more. High scores and statistics would remain on the web but you'd start over, choosing a different style of play or role for your kingdom and go at it again, from scratch. Only the most organized teams would succeed in building up the kingdom through a dozen or so roles (not just strictly combat) until the best 2 kingdoms fought it out for dominance.
The developers would expand the game by improving randomness of everything and add features and skills and whatnot, but not focus on new bosses or dungeons or item grinds. Their focus would be on improving the gameplay for replayability, which is infinitely better than sitting around talking with psychologists and sales experts about how they can develop a new grind to keep people playing.
MMORPGs are virtual skinner boxes.
http://www.nickyee.com/eqt/skinner.html
This, ideally there should not be an end game the leveling balance should be such that by the time the average player reaches the end game new content is available.
A few things I'd do radically different:
- Item decay. Items eventually break down and have to be replaced. Thus keeping the economy running and allowing worthwhile end-game crafting
- Horizontal progression. Maximum power should be reached easily, but after that there should be lots of options to expand without any bounds of classes. Think of tabletop wargaming, you can only field an army of 1500pts but the more models you collect the more ways you have of filling those 1500pts, each army being suited to different tasks and playstyles.
- Randomly generated dungeons. With item decay there will be a constant demand for high-end materials, these should be found in randomly generated dungeons. Based on the entering party a scaled dungeon is generated complete with random bosses with random mechanics, hidden treasures and who knows what else.
- Open world PvP objectives. There should be several open world PvP objectives that can be captured or raided by the in-game factions (more then two please... possibly a renegade faction that's not a single faction but instead made up out of individual guilds at war with everyone, including other renegades). Captured objectives provide a constant small source of good crafting materials to the owning faction (or in case of renegades, guild) that can be picked up by any faction members. Capturing objectives grants a medium crafting material reward and transfers control. Raiding objectives grants a big crafting material reward, temporarily stops that objective's crafting mats supply but does not transfer control.
- Player-owned flying ships. Combining a player-owned house (inside the ship, the cabin) with a mount (driving the ship). Trophies and such can be hung outside your ship or in your cabin. Friends can be invited into your cabin. Guilds can own larger ships with multiple rooms and such. Ship floats so can be parked anywhere without obstructing passage (walk underneath or fly your ship over it). These ships are persistent while logged in and can be damaged, when HP reaches 0 it's not destroyed but instead drastically slowed until repaired. Should have some combat abilities that only work on specific targets (not other players, but other ships yes). Mainly a flying mount that's also your house.
- More lively AI. Most wildlife doesn't stuck to one spot but predators locate the nearest prey and hunt. Prey try to travel in herds and avoid predators. etc. There should still be static outposts and such for socialisation, trade and new players but most of the 'filler' content that's not directly related to some sort of main storyline, the main hubs or otherwise necessary content should be made more dynamic. Combined with horizontal progression meaning that maximum power is easily reached it's no big problem if strong enemies wander into weaker zones.
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\
( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o)
(")("),,(")("),(")(")
Remove the end game. Remove leveling. Remove elite gear that can only be obtained if you belong to a large enough guild or have access to the free time needed to get it. Make a beautiful game skill based and open the world for all and don't isolate players with an artificial caste system.
- Make the gap between a starting player and a maxed player far smaller than it is now.
- Go skills based and allow players to max every skill if they choose, but design it so that players can only play a certain role at a time. (Ex: Tie combat into the weapon equipped, and each weapon has a unique role). Players can now grind for a long time if they want to max all the trees, or players with less time or desire can just max a couple of key lines. The player who maxed all lines may be slightly more powerful, but their main advantage would be that they can fill many roles where the casual player may have only mastered one. So long as there are many skills you may never have to increase the skill cap, though you could occasionally add new skill lines.
- Generated Epic Quests, Dungeons, Bosses and Raid Bosses to keep players easy and to keep content from being the same old thing over and over.
- In a PvP based game you'd also need sieges or something to keep players occupied.
- Many optional gameplay types that can keep a player busy. Not just combat. Allow them to upgrade housing, build structures, upgrade vehicles, or play other mini-game types to keep them occupied.
https://www.therepopulation.com - Sci Fi Sandbox.
Agree, I really don't get the whole end game thing. End game to me means stop playing untill more content is released, unless it's a sandbox of course with tons of things to do (one can dream no).
Endgame Content
What about offspring - yes your character can have children.
These 'children' grow up alongside your main character picking up the traits of their 'parents' and developing into either a hybrid type character where the 'parents' are of different classes, or eventually becoming more powerful versions of their parents where both parents are of the same class.
One parent is obviously the character that you play, the other could be either an 'alt' that you play (maybe even somebody elses player character) or an NPC.
Your 'child' could accompany your main character and gain xp along the way (much like a pet), or you could choose to play the 'child' at any point, maybe taking their destiny/skills in a different direction.
Just a basic concept, needs work and balance could be an issue, but I think it has legs.
Nice, f2p with item shop & credits kill my willingness to play even if I would want to play MUD.
For me I want what gobla said + PURE P2P. No item shop ridicule...
I prefer games that have no endgame content. I like the games that concentrate on leveling, and it takes years to reach max level. An example of this is a game I've been playing a lot of recently; Priston Tale.
With games that have endgame content, like WoW, they just keep coming up with a new expansion, or patch, and you do the same thing all over again. Don't get me wrong, leveling is the same thing over and over again, but at least it doesn't pretend to be otherwise.
Yeah, it is one way doing it that would work even though I prefer a mix between skill based and stat based.
Stats used to matter, they are very important in every single P&P game including D&D but in MMO only some games have them at all, and they matter little in the games still having them (like EQ2.
I would also add a lot more none combat things to the game. Ever played the old "Theif" games? Imagine that with a group of 5 thiefs sneaking into a castle or something? It would be very different but not hard to add, and it would be really fun.
MMOs are all about combat, and combat should be fun but there are alternatives to just killing stuff. My favorite MMO quest ever is a AoC quest were you interigate 3 suspects to figure out who is a thief, it could be solved by brains or by the right kind of threats, while building an entire game on stuff like that wouldn't work some things like it makes the game more varied and fun.
In the old Pen-and-paper mode, the Dungeon Master (DM) thinks of a ways to keep the game interesting, challenging, and rewarding.
What were missing is a good DM AI, instead we have mindless AI who's doing the same exact predictable action when a phase threshold is met.
"Ok phase 2, we run back and forth and avoid the fire" -- Lame AI.
If the game is made with adaptable and smart AI, no need to make them the mobs "elite" by buffing stats, instead we'll have an Elite Mob because it is smart. It keeps players on their toes.
So how would this change the "endgame"?
With this type of gameplay, everyone will look forward to another challenge. No end game in sight.
Ready for GW2!!!
I completely agree with your overall thought here. But I've always felt that GMs should be a big part of this too. Instead of constantly working on the next set of levels, quests, and "End Game" content, GMs should be working on the next set of plot lines, mysteries, and goals of enemies and friends of the players. Add in your AI to make a widespread event spread, and link them together in a sort of strategy mode with the GMs, and you have the capability of making a very exciting game world.
Keep in mind that you need a world that isn't separated by level zones for anything other than level grind to work.
Edit to add: Keep in mind also that the current sort of game developers we see in the industry and here on these boards are incapable of comprehending this.
Once upon a time....
I love the challenges where you have to use your mind. That's why KOTOR is so good. You can diffuse situations by simply talking, or using force if you prefer. If they could introduce this element into MMO's it would be amazing.
It would be nice to have the option to attempt diplomacy rather than 'kill 20 of XXmonsterXX' It's all about adding more features and elements.
If this was a feature you could get through an MMO without fighting much, you'd just be a diplomat. It'd be like real life, where the people in power do not fight themselves, they worm their ideas into people and have those people fight for them.
I think that "stat based" part is a key compnent to making a really good Sandbox game experience. Many things the players should be able to do should be completely stat vs. objective.
For example:
Your Strength vs. the weight of a boulder or massive stone door.
Your Intelligence vs. understanding and learning what's in a book (skill, magic, or whatever).
Your Agility vs. walking a tightrope.
Your Dexterity vs. throwing an object at something.
Then you can add in skills to supplement specific aspects. For example you can add a Tightrope Walking skill and make it half and half to accomplish the task at up to double effectiveness. And you can add an Axe Throwing skill to do the same.
So, in other words, depending on the action, the roll might be 1xStat, 1/2xStat, 1/2Stat+1/2Skill, 1xSkill, and modified by particular circumstances.
Once upon a time....
** Player Economy
** Player Cities and Factions
** Diverse Guild/Clan Options (mabie Guild created quests)
** Sandbox (Im Tired of games that have a pre-designated path for the players...) IMO
** Let me ask you this.. Why should endgame start at end level.. why cant we Start our legacy at level 1???
** Random Stats and Random Items would be great in a game.. I hate haveing a twin.. triplets quadruplets..and so on...IMO
** Room to explore!!!.. Let me find that spot that noone has ever been too...and screw it I want to put a house there damnit hahahaha
** Roleplay Value! ( I am personaly not a roleplayer, but it does add to the atmosphere.... again IMO
Thats from the top of my head I could go on for days im sure
Thanks
Why does there need to be an end-game? Fact of the matter is that there is, with the majority of multiplayer games over the last several years, this end-game reality interjected by the development studios while manufacturing false massively-multiplayer online games, but providing single-player rpg's with a few redundant cooperative-online game elements.
You'd think that over several years of ~70% of seeing box purchasers for these supposed "massively-multiplayer" products cancelling their subscription 6-months to a year-out would be reason enough to re-think the gaming mechanics model, or wanting to at least to maintain more of a majority of their consumer-base. But the studios dont, time and time again.
"Content" in these traditionally supposed MMO's means a linear activity for players which expires once the content is completed -- the most obvious examples being raids, dungeons, and quests. Not only is there little replay value, but what's left of it diminishes rapidly, and players demand more content; content that studios never deliver on to justify paying a monthly subscription of $15/month for these actual single-player / cooperative-online multiplayer games.
Most players that I have read or interacted with are more interested in more sandboxy gaming environments, as opposed to fleeting single/cooperative play games with the same funneled and instanced content but wrapped in a different window dressing. Notice how I mentioned sandboxy as opposed to sandbox. There's a difference. It's important to focus new development on community/player-base centric features of the game which expand the range of community-focus, presence, cooperation, competitiveness, territorial management, crafting, merchandising, and economy (just to name a few) within a more sandboxy core game-play environment, with mechanics and tools or new types of gameplay for players to engage in as a community; that as opposed to the heavy emphasis on the linear single-player-esque & npc restrictive environment
I would probably have casinos. It would suck virtual currency out of the game, and keep people playing the game. I don't think I'd have anything like slot machines though. If possible, nothing but physics or card based games of 'chance'.
The best part would be I wouldn't have to cheat at all. No weighted dice, no magnets under the roulette wheel, etc. If somebody won a kabillion in game copper pieces, who cares?
Then again, that's probably a horrible idea and I've just grown cynical about end game content.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Exactly. Have it so that end game isn't defined, there simply is no end to what you can do.
I've thought up a way to progress with a soft to hard cap as well as a means to switch roles. No one role can beat every other role but you can change roles if you wish. That's how you avoid this end game hole that always has to be plugged with more content.
I think it's kind of fun what we observe in this thread--the expectation for one game to entertain one player on one toon forever.
No wonder people are dissatisfied with MMOs, MMOs fail utterly to do the impossible.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.