And with these new games, they had a different flavor and were "start-overs", so they had something to offer players if they liked the game design, the level/gear grind, the quest driven content, of WoW.
But these players, and they were very large in numbers, they didn't stay with the new game. They went back to the game they were established in, even though they were trying out other games.
And that's why I think that gamers, these masses that are now playing, are actually unhappy with the Themepark design and are looking for some else. That they've evolved, outgrown simplicity. And Sandbox would seem to me to be what they are looking for, because Sandbox is about making a world, not just a game.
What I don't understand with this post is that the MMO genre is the only one where some people have this 'sandbox > themepark' logic.
No other genre has fans that has this logic at all.
Single player RPG?
I don't think you can say 'Elder Scrolls is superior to Mass Effect series' cause they are different games. Both appeal to their playerbase and are really awesome games.
Gdemami - Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
That's utterly ridiculous. Why should the mmorpg community be thankful for a game that caused the death of all the mechanics and characteristics we loved about the genre in the first place? Why should the mmorpg community be thankful for all the mmo game options being reduced to MOBAs? (multiplayer online battle arenas aka lobby hack'n'slashes)
Here's the problem. You're not talking about the genre dying, you're talking about your enjoyment of the genre dying. The two are not the same. Your enjoyment of the genre is entirely irrelevant to the health of the genre itself. In fact, the success of the genre is more likely linked to the death of those mechanics that you love. That died and the genre flourished because the majority of players had no interest in it.
The MMORPG community is made up of more than just the hardcore, old-time players. The people who don't want what you want vastly outnumber you.
Yes the problem is that they are all pretty much the same thing.
The industry has sorta stagnated with regards to AAA game companies. This is because there has been only 1 extreme success sense the older times, which is WoW. Lineage 1, UO, SWG, DAOC, EQ, AC, L2.... EVERY one of these games were VERY different and succeeded very well in what they did differently. RIFT, LOTRO, WOW, WAR, and XX and from what I've seen SWTOR...sure and AoC, while they have some differences, the major flavor of them are quite similar. Very similar, actually. This is the problem for most of us gamers who have been playing these for a while. It isn't, however, a problem for the developers because with tens of millions of possible players, it really doesn't matter how similar they are as long as they are polished and do what they say they are supposed to do.
I did not add GW because you don't have to pay a monthly, so it will be common for people to buy GW and anything else as well. That's smart marketing for them.
If TSW is a success, you'll bet that some more games will be made with classless systems and a more immersive story.
If ArchAge is a success, you'll bet that someone with AAA funding will try and create a sandbox again.
Seeing games like TSW/ArchAge is a good thing for the current stagnation, but if both fail.... there will be another 5 to 10 years of mcmmo... I don't mean that to be deamining. It's a formula that brings in the money even if it's not entirely too original. By no means am I saying the formula is evil. Stagnation is the "evil".
Bottomline...MMOS are at a wall and eventually...someone's gotta jump over it. Sandbox are more fun for me because I like the gaming world aspect that's impossible to find on a console (at the moment). MMOs are forced questing now with "sports" (mostly meh PvP).
There needs to be more variety of choices is the thing I'm saying. Indie companies are trying to fill that role, but it's pretty hard. I bet they could make a themepark pretty easy (still is a difficult job) because the formula is so obvious nowoadays.
Maybe they will stop with the Arrand Questing system and go with something better like fighting through dungeons than running back and forth turning in quests. That is my biggest problem.
There has been some good innovation though that have improved the genre more than people are thinking. It is when you don't have those things you realize they are gone. Go back and play EQ1 for a while and see what i'm talking about. The only reason I go back sometimes is because I don't have to quest for experience. You will notice that the spells are boring when having to cast them over and over without much of a rotation. Warriors are god aweful because they don't have hardly any abilities to fight with accept for AA's. EQ2 made up for that though, but they added the quest system in there which screwed it all up. I would say that there would have to be a new MMO come out that focused on solo and group dungeon crawls that require no quest, but is fun to just explore and spend time in while you gain experience until it is time to move to another area.
This is the way I see it of course, others may have their own too, that is what makes us human beings. I would like to close though with the fact that we are getting older and life is changing right a long with the games which will be changing to adjust to their player base. If we become a minority of that genre then we won't be that important and will have to move on just like with music.
Bottomline...MMOS are at a wall and eventually...someone's gotta jump over it.
The issue is that the studios with money refuse to take that risk and do something new. They all wait for the indie studios to take the risk for them and use that to justify their decisions.
True and false really. THe true spirit of what mmos were did die you had no true accomplishment or difficulty, as well as feel f the older games is gone. Same with the community that was around back then. Yet also with the dumbing down, and standardization of mmos the genre has hit a stride wheere it is accessable to many more, meaning it must be more accectable to masses of people, ovr a group of simularly minded people. Mmo's as living worlds are dying and will most likely end up as a zombiefied version of it'self never trully dieing, yet never reemerging, since that is not what the majority wants. Generally speaking all mmos are pretty well off in ways, but if you look idivigualy a good percentage are failing or dead already, also even wow is affected it is nothing like it was at launch or even lk largely, becoming more and more focued in hwo you move and prgress in it.
Maybe they will stop with the Arrand Questing system and go with something better like fighting through dungeons than running back and forth turning in quests. That is my biggest problem.
There has been some good innovation though that have improved the genre more than people are thinking. It is when you don't have those things you realize they are gone. Go back and play EQ1 for a while and see what i'm talking about. The only reason I go back sometimes is because I don't have to quest for experience. You will notice that the spells are boring when having to cast them over and over without much of a rotation. Warriors are god aweful because they don't have hardly any abilities to fight with accept for AA's. EQ2 made up for that though, but they added the quest system in there which screwed it all up. I would say that there would have to be a new MMO come out that focused on solo and group dungeon crawls that require no quest, but is fun to just explore and spend time in while you gain experience until it is time to move to another area.
This is the way I see it of course, others may have their own too, that is what makes us human beings. I would like to close though with the fact that we are getting older and life is changing right a long with the games which will be changing to adjust to their player base. If we become a minority of that genre then we won't be that important and will have to move on just like with music.
I got to diagree with you on questing i love questing to lvel, since it actually is a way to learn and experince the story a aarea. Though most mmo'er are more of the click grab, and kill group kicking thru the quests to speed to max level. If they made more ways to level both mob, quest, and non-combative choices that are worthwhile and equal in overal leveling time. YOu would not really have that issue, since you can still grind mobs and level but yet the amount of experince you gain for quests+mob kills is better right now. To me grinding mobs all day is stale and boring sicne you learn nothing, and just kill wiht the same overall method. I kinda wish the quest system would have a layed questing addition that as you finish parts of a qquest it just reveals the next stage of the quest, as a way to releive some of the back travealing of questing.
With all the peole in mmo gaming you need three to four leveling roots that are just as viable as the others, but suited to certain playstyles, Aso bump the experiience to level so that even power leveling it would take several months to hit max, and then addd more content and activities for areas you level in to keep your players entertained. I remeber taking alot of time to level in even wow compared to what even lk or cata leveling is. Nerfing the hp of boss as well as diffficulty of instacne is another killed since it demeans as well as devalues the enjoyment as well as group activities in the instances. The motto of "the game staarts at end gam." is so moronic and backwards, i would rather spend months or years with a guild and friends leveling, then spend weeks racing to make sure i can get into the new content before it gets nerfed/
Well its clear the genre got totally undressed from most of their rpg elements. Look at the pre trammel UO. And the last gen. Just try to compare them a second. There is such a rift between those games. And everything that was supposed to make them "RPG", got scrapped.
You can't trap mobs anymore because they wouldn't respawn until they die, they never fixed their spawners, they just forbid trapping mobs. You can't make trap anymore, you can't even drop gold on the floor because in siege some use that to crash the server and keep their castle. Did they fixed that? no they just made it so you can't drop stuff anymore. Why would you want to have so many strange roles, treasure hunter, herb gatherer, tamer, sheep herder, medium, pickpocket, thief... lets scrap those too, in fact lets keep only the warrior/wizard/rogue role, because the other are just crappy and useless anyway, yes we did coded them in a stupid way to begin with, but nobody know that except us, lets pretend they are really useless because everyone agree they are really useless. WHy would you even want to fix all those roles anyway, for whom? And the good roles like tamer or thief are really too exploitable anyway. You want to have a unique character? We can't make dressing layers in 3D, so just give them few armor per level range, and lets call this officially "changing appearance", you know who i'm referring to right?. And lets not put any dying system too because its useless anyway and its too much work. Mobs ai is a real problem, and an exploiting mess. Lets make mob ai dummy like, and forbid luring. Lets scrap all the time sink too, i mean they don't work anyway and nobody want them. Pvp? are you crazy that stuff doesn't work, its so exploitable. Housing? bha that's a stupid feature if you don't instance it, and its stupid if you instance it, so why bother with this? I really could continue that list to no end and point everything that make a rpg world just that, got undressed by the game companies and players alike at every new gen because they just didn't want to deal with those. We don't play/make games to have to deal with problems isn't it? They are just games for god sake, which is both true and sad.
So what are we left with? you got it, arcade/fps games with the addictive element of rpg (xp/gear grind), thats really all that is left basically from old RPGs. Even crafting/economy barely survive. And it please the 12million guys, i mean this is so perfect right? We all live in a perfect world where everyone smile and is happy, there is no problem anymore, since they all got dealt with, right? The only real problem now is that those games are just addictive shitty and boring games, they are not what they used to be. And you can have 12million behind your theory it won't make it more interesting, neither for us, neither for that 12 millions of smiling and happy customers.
And sometime you have those 12million happy dudes wake up, and ask stupid questions. Why don't we have pvp in our mmo, aren't those about multiplayer gameplay, so why no pvp? Why don't we have world pvp since arena are so great? yes why really i mean, i can hear the dev say, ho fuck how will we pull this guys? fuck wasn't pvp supposed to not ever be back in mmos, isn't the horse like dead since a decade?. So whats next? Hey guys why can't our toon have some real personality? Ye that's maybe the next "stuff" or maybe not. The thing is the genre got so naked with the 2k generation, you just had nothing left, so you cannot do anything but add new things now, and that's what WOW began to do in 2005, just like SWG, maybe even EQ2, and it probably won't stop anytime soon. Whatever some think they know exactly what the 12million want. Rift is the same crap and is boring, no shit Sherlock? how can it be?
So guys don't loose faith, it probably cannot be worth anyway, so it might go for the better, or am I just to confident in humankind? What i just wanted to say is that the genre went so badly because probably both gamers and game companies decided to put aside all those aspects for many reasons. They'll probably come back anyway, slowly but surely, probably, it won't be easy for sure
Nah, what we have now are games for gamers. Non-WOW games may struggle to put together good, polished core game systems, but they get most of the formula right usually.
The earlier games were games for...I don't know who. But certainly not most regular gamers. Later, as the genre shifted towards being more game-like, it gained in popularity.
What I thought - exactly.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Nah, what we have now are games for gamers. Non-WOW games may struggle to put together good, polished core game systems, but they get most of the formula right usually.
The earlier games were games for...I don't know who. But certainly not most regular gamers. Later, as the genre shifted towards being more game-like, it gained in popularity.
What I thought - exactly.
Well that is partially true actually.
Earlier games were also for gamers, just for diffrent kind of gamers.
Concept of modern mmorpg's is to create game-like experience, older mmorpg's concept was to create virtual-world-simulator-like experience.
That's why character was expected f.e. to wait for a boat in harbour to sail to other island, becasue normally there are no boats ready to insant-take single people, they just get off at certain hours (like in rl trains and busses don't wait to take single passanger, but have set hours when they take off).
Nowadays concept is that this is game, and world is made for player convenience, so he start to travel instantly after he decides (frequently just teleporting, even without any explanation).
It is bad or worse?
Any of the above. It is just diffrent design.
There are just players who want convenience and to play a game ,and there are players who want to play in a virtual world.
There are very few if any made for players longing for games that 'simulate worlds' - that's why they are dissatisfied.
Until some investor decide that there is enough of them to target game for them again, you'll only see current design aaa tiles.
For a while developers wanted to create games that were trying to cater both for players longing for games that were made to 'mimick-virtual-worlds' ( f.e. you have to wait for world, you have to find things yourself as there is no graphic arrow on the ground in fantasy world showing you the way, teleporting needed some kind of portal or at least spell to do - when nowadays every player insta-teleport to dungeon from anywhere without any portal / spell / etc ) - this have not worked obviously.
Games usually changed over time to cater more for game-like experience, sometimes expanding their playerbase doing this (vanilla WoW vs. WotlK WoW), sometimes staying roughly same playerbase (SoA Lotro vs Moria / Mirkwood Lotro) and sometimes losing players (pre-Nge SWG vs Nge-SWG).
Of course genre as a whole gained players as there is more people preferring game-like experience with games sacrificing beliviablity, logic, immersion and hardships in order to create more conveniant and comfort gameplay.
Still there is certain % of people that want diffrent experience and they are not gonna disappear, as contrary to popular belief it is not only a issue of age or experiences, more an issue of prefences.
Some people prefer to travel using a car as they decide exact time when to go, how fast and what route to take, and others prefer to take a train as they don't have to take an effort of driving and maintaining a car, but they can read, sleep or do some work during travelling instead.
Just diffrent expectations and preferences - older design is not 'worse' or 'better' objectively.
Is is SUBJECTIVE.
Online gaming will continue to rise. Sooner or later there will be games made with modified 'older mmorpg approach' as well. There will be in miniority sure - but they will eventually - times when 'one game design for all' is coming to an end. Only question is how long it will take.
Old mmo where made for dnd nerds-which I am one,table top gamers,larpers,etc..the games had a different purpose build those worlds in a game.todays game goals is to build a good video game that appeals a wide base. the culture was always and still is niche the people who are asking for game like past seem to forget that.
And with these new games, they had a different flavor and were "start-overs", so they had something to offer players if they liked the game design, the level/gear grind, the quest driven content, of WoW.
But these players, and they were very large in numbers, they didn't stay with the new game. They went back to the game they were established in, even though they were trying out other games.
And that's why I think that gamers, these masses that are now playing, are actually unhappy with the Themepark design and are looking for some else. That they've evolved, outgrown simplicity. And Sandbox would seem to me to be what they are looking for, because Sandbox is about making a world, not just a game.
What I don't understand with this post is that the MMO genre is the only one where some people have this 'sandbox > themepark' logic.
No other genre has fans that has this logic at all.
Single player RPG?
I don't think you can say 'Elder Scrolls is superior to Mass Effect series' cause they are different games. Both appeal to their playerbase and are really awesome games.
That's because MMORPGs are supposed to be massively multiplayer. There's the difference. An expected social interaction. An expected worldly coexistence.
What's the draw of an MMORPG that's different than a Single Player Game (even with multiplayer options)? It's the masses.
And when you look at the Themepark model, you find the same model as a Single Player Game. But this model divides these masses into what plays like Single Player in multiplayer mode. There goes the "masses" feature that is the attraction of an MMORPG.
I agree with the OP in many aspects! And you are not alone in how you feel, I feel the same thing, I can't find myself playing an MMORPG today for more than 2-3 months.
Actually I haven't been able to play an MMORPG like I did UO for 5 years since UO, SWG came close but they had to force me to stop playing it with the NGE.
Largelly due to the fact that MMORPG's addopted the "Single player game approach" rather than the "Living Breathing World Community game approach".
Microtransactions and the spiting up of content is just another step towards the wrong direction, that was much probably made up by someone that thought they are a genius in Marketing/Fiancnes, but I think that person is the most selfish, greedy, egocentic career oriented person in existance within the genre, that has no idea what gamers really want and how it makes us all feel.
And no I do not beleive that because of these changes the genre became popular, far from it, the genre simply became more popular because the Internet itself became more popular and part of our every day lives.
back at the time of UO and EQ, most households did not even have a computer yet, it was considered a Geeky thing, then few years later everyone has one everyone started connecting to it, our Operating Systems were build for internet fucntionality, You installed windows and it asked you "How are you conneting to the Internet"...not even if you had it or not, then you had all these offers in the form of desktop shortuts relating to the internet remind you constantly that something exists out ther and you are missing it. So thus slowly people got on, and more people started taking part in browsing, and forums and discussion groups and also games and today Social networks, Take the growth of Facebook subscibers, compare that to the first year, there were less Facebook people and there were less people people playing Facebook games too, bow there are more people in Facebook and there are more people playing facebook games too.
Same thing happened here with MMOs.
But you see the Business sence works differently than our Gamer sense.
A business person looks at this and says, "Wow, more people on the Internet playing games now, we need to change our formula and make more money out of it, lets all establish trends so that all of us benefit from it and the people comming to play accept it as the "norm". "
So it seems to work because most people playing MMO's today are ignorant of how MMO's were before them, and simply follow like a herd of sheep going to the pasture to eat the fresh grass..little do they know about the intentions of the Herder.
We, the old MMOErs are the black sheep in all of that story...trying to defy the Herder... and I think our numbers and voice is getting bigger, because the current direction of the genre is boring as hell and more and more sheep are waking up more quickly, there will be a time in the near future that we shall see a come back to the "Living breathing World Community game" approach of designing MMO's without all the crappy microtransactions and content being spoonfed to players.
The first Team of Devs to realise this will surprise the industry like Blizz did 6 years ago. The Social aspect of MMO's that has been lost will be what will save it again, and all those lacking the capacity to understand this will retire to living off writting books. as they will be replaced by a new generation of designers and Dvellopers.
Patience is a virtue friends
- Duke Suraknar - Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
I also have been gaming since release of EQ1. Many years of DMing D+D PnP games before that.
I think this is the great divide.
What you have are D&D/PnP/MUD type players angry at what the genre has become, and the new blood whose baby sitter was the PC/console
(my opinion now) EQ1/AC/UO/DAOC are fondly remembered because thew borrowed heavilly from the tabletop world. also people gripe about community, table tops were all about community. the early MMOs offered the same, just with more people.
The type of player 11 years ago was also a whole different breed. We were just crossing the point of if it was cool or not to be a PC gamer, but now, everyone spouts off about cakes, dog tags, and green helmet wearing heroes.
Also, i think the programers 11 years ago understood their own genre opposed to the diploma mills now entering the field (notice how every school offers a game course, with some schools glorifiying it as "Play games for a living and make $100,000!!") .
As much as i hate to say it, those of us wanting a throwback to 11 years ago, we are getting older, and unless someone wants to cater to the nich market of us, im afraid this is what we have to deal with.
This.
I want the MMO genre of the D&D/PnP/Mud type. DAoC preSI please. EQ1 as well.
I am not satisfied with any current MMOs at all except Wurm Online. At least there I can participate in the "world" in a fashion that I find to my liking.
For everyone else... sorry, but I did not invite you here... but I wasn't invited to the old MMOs either... so we are even.
I will leave debate there and agree to disagree with those opposed to the type of MMOs I enjoyed.
I agree. The direction MMO's have taken from the more virtual-world experience of the earlier MMOs are not to my liking. I stick with the MMORPG genre because I like playing characters and games that I can sink a lot of time into - however, I still prefer games like UO over more "gamey" games like WoW.
Everything always comes back around. I'd say within the next decade that we'll start seeing more free world, virtual based simulation games come back into the fray. But like everything in culture, it takes a long time for things to shift. We saw the MMO genre shift slowly into what it now is and we'll probably see it shift again over this decade much like the last. That's how things go.
We'll have another UO or similar game somewhere down the line. At least Archeage looks promising.
Archeage Droped the ball already that wont have full loot or any loot drop at all making pvp worthless. If your not looking for pvp then it will still be good but if you are then all you get is pointless pvp killing for killing and later on when you ship battle it cost you to pvp with no reward .
Not to metion I have a feeling it will be a loot grinder with drop loot being better then crafted loot making crafting worthless out side ship building and house building.
Archeage Droped the ball already that wont have full loot or any loot drop at all making pvp worthless. If your not looking for pvp then it will still be good but if you are then all you get is pointless pvp killing for killing and later on when you ship battle it cost you to pvp with no reward .
Not to metion I have a feeling it will be a loot grinder with drop loot being better then crafted loot making crafting worthless out side ship building and house building.
Disappointing to hear. The game world does look interesting and I like the pace of combat based on what I've seen - however in all of the PvP/PvE videos I've seen, everyone uses the same 5 abilities which is also rather discouraging. And sort of silly when you are hitting people with 2 handers, casting fireballs, and then playing a lute to heal.
At least in UO magic was magic and you didn't whip out a musical instrument when buffing/healing. *Vas Ort Flam* *Corp Por* and your opponent goes *In Vas Mani* and whips out a lute or harp or drum to heal before you finish him off with your halby :P
Still going to be some time before we have a good, large budget, open world/loot MMO again. I'd say 2020ish.
Games now are just...games...but I can get those anywhere, honestly.
By games now I mean games that are polished and working almost basically correctly at launch.
Will they return to the alternate world type of style? I bet they will eventually. I mean you're beating a dead hen right now with typical playstyles. Like I said before. Between 1997 and 2003-2005ish, pretty much no game was a "copy" or similar to the other (SWG-PCU, L1, L2, UO, AC, EQ, DAoC). Nowadays, everything tastes pretty much the same (Rift, WoW, AION, AoC, probably SWTOR, WAR...granted there are some differences, but the flavor is basically the same).
Somebody said something in a certain way in this thread several pages back...
They said something to the effect of "the new MMOs are much better games for Gamers"
Then you say this:
Originally posted by Kappadonna
I agree. The direction MMO's have taken from the more virtual-world experience of the earlier MMOs are not to my liking. I stick with the MMORPG genre because I like playing characters and games that I can sink a lot of time into - however, I still prefer games like UO over more "gamey" games like WoW.
Everything always comes back around. I'd say within the next decade that we'll start seeing more free world, virtual based simulation games come back into the fray. But like everything in culture, it takes a long time for things to shift. We saw the MMO genre shift slowly into what it now is and we'll probably see it shift again over this decade much like the last. That's how things go.
We'll have another UO or similar game somewhere down the line. At least Archeage looks promising.
There it is. So simple it could have run me over like a bus... and it did several times over the years.
People that participate in MMOs can be Players, or Gamers, or a little of both. There is a subtle yet distinct difference in the two groups of People.
I *am* a Player, not a Gamer.
Older MMOs were made more for Players...
Newer MMOs are NOW made more for Gamers...
and the difference in the design and ingame experience shows.
I just know some people in the past on these forums tried to point this out to me and others... my apologies for being such an idiot. and Thank you.
I compare it to the progress of manned space exploration.
First we went into orbit... then we went to the Moon... and the original crowd looked forward to heading to Mars and beyond... but somehow we ended up stuck back in orbit for decades (though in fancier rockets)...
The original MMOs all seemed to be trying different things... focusing on different aspects of gameplay and taking chances on things that seemed like big steps forward in gameplay - even if the graphics were fairly simple - the empahsis was on creating these very cool virtual worlds.
Along came WoW... did a lot of the basic things better... made a ton of money... and we've had companies trying to copy that model for nearly 10 years.
I remember the first time I logged into Everquest. Even though the only thing onscreen was a flat field with a few cardboard-cutout trees rising out of it, the experience was so much more meaningful. I remember taking an excited, shuddering breath as I processed it all in my mind.
Right now, there are dozens - no, hundreds - no, thousands of other players in this virtual world with me. It's a world. It's a living, breathing world.
I did a lot of people-watching. It thrilled me to see other players going about their business. It was such a departure from the video games I had played beforehand. Even though early MMOs were almost ruthlessly difficult to advance in without making a massive time commitment, things were fair. Everything was obtainable ingame once you paid for the game itself and kept up its subscription fee. For a square $15 a month, the entire world was at your fingertips. Some things were extremely difficult to get, so difficult I'd never have a chance at it, but I didn't mind. It made sense to me. Not everyone could wield Excalibur or ride Shadowfax.
As time went on, MMORPGs became friendlier beasts. This was a divisive development. Personally, I quite liked it. My fondest MMO memories are from the middle of the decade, when World of Warcraft, Everquest 2, City of Heroes, and Guild Wars were all fresh and new. The frustrations I had often felt while playing games like Everquest and Final Fantasy XI were no longer weighing me down. I could log in and strike out on my own, without having to sit around in a town hoping a group would form so I could do something as basic as go out and level up. Things were still fair in those days. For a time it looked like MMORPGs might actually get cheaper instead of more expensive, due to the success of Guild Wars. I know a lot of people were hoping monthly fees might become a thing of the past.
It wasn't to be, however. We now find ourselves in the thick of the age of cash shops and RMT. An age where having complete and total access to your MMORPG of choice is more expensive than ever. An age where the game's rarest treasure were not hidden away in the world's most dangerous dungeons and wielded by the most dedicated (or obsessed) players, but instead purchasable with real-world currency and wielded by those with the most disposable income.
I can't do it anymore. The immersion and the joy of the genre has been sucked out of me.
What's worse, even non-MMOs are doing it with their constant streams of DLC. The days where you could buy a game (and/or subscribe to it) for a flat price are over. Pieces of content, ranging in size from entire new regions and play modes to cosmetic additions like pets and alternate costumes are constantly being released. The worst thing of all is that it's working. People are eating it up. There is a large crowd out there that doesn't care when developers excise content from their own game to sell it seperately, often at very high prices.
There was once a time where alternate costumes and stages were part of the flat-rate package you purchased, and you unlocked them by showing skill or spending time playing the game. Today they are sold in DLC packs that are often 1/5th the price of the core game. Going back to MMOs, I'm finding that developers are charging ludicrous prices for things that used to be part of the flat-rate package.
All of this would be easier to swallow if it seemed like all this DLC and microtransaction stuff was content that simply wouldn't fit into the core product. This doesn't look to be the case to me, though. MMOs are releasing less content less often these days, and yet they continue to increase the rate at which they pump out DLC and microtransaction items. These things aren't leftovers from the design process - developers are actively and intentionally spending less effort on the core game and more effort on the cash shops and downloadable content. The degree to which they favor one or the other depends on the developer, but the vast majority appear to be whole-heartedly chasing after the DLC and RMT models, because they make more money.
There was once a time where the entrance fee was all you needed to experience the entirety of a game. Now, most MMOs are like a theme park that charges you to ride some of the attractions on top of having you pay the entry fee. Some people have yet to realize just how lucrative cash shops can be. A single player who spends $60 a month in the cash shop is worth four players who only pay the $15 monthly fee. These players exist. I've been running into them every day - the players with the Double XP Buff, the Double Reputation Buff, the No Cooldown Health Potions, the full collection of faction mounts which you can either buy with real-life money or spend two weeks grinding a faction's reputation to obtain each.
There was once a time where every item, pet, mount, consumable, and buff was available for that same flat price. There were often interesting and challenging ways to obtain that item. They were often woven into the lore of the game in fascinating ways. Today, they're in the cash shop, an immersion-breaking window you can bring up and spend real money in. Excalibur is on sale right now for 1950 Store Points. Shadowfax, Gandalf's one-of-a-kind mount, is 1730 Store Points. Alternatively, you can grind Maiar reputation two hours a day for three weeks to get it.
To those who don't have a problem with this - that's grand and I'm genuinely happy for you. I wish I didn't care so much. I wish it didn't matter so much to me that the coolest and rarest items are no longer earned by playing the game they are in but by wiring money to the developer. Unfortunately, I do. They did it right for so many years that I've grown weary of their new approach.
There was once a time where games felt like living, breathing worlds rife with opportunity. There was an in-game path to everything - every weapon, item, and companion. Now games are starting to feel more and more like half-filled display cases, with plenty of slots and spaces just waiting to filled - if you've got the money to spare.
Congrats, know you know how real gamers feel about what the inferior console has done to the entire industry...
And the gay people in the industry who have no clue how to make a game.. (Sorry, but i dont think one straight person exist anymore)
Please exit stage right and hand the reigns back to the experts.. in short.. please everyone in the gaming industry today.. please fucking quit
Earlier games were also for gamers, just for diffrent kind of gamers.
Online gaming will continue to rise. Sooner or later there will be games made with modified 'older mmorpg approach' as well. There will be in miniority sure - but they will eventually - times when 'one game design for all' is coming to an end. Only question is how long it will take.
Sure, but simulation-lovers have historically (stretching way back before MMORPGs) been a much smaller population than game-lovers.
The fact that simulation games have existed since before MMORPGs proves their longevity -- but that history also paints a clear picture of (a) far fewer sims made than games, and (b) smaller budgets (except for the companies that went out of business or decided to stop making those types of games.)
So you can expect that trend to continue for the foreseeable future.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Earlier games were also for gamers, just for diffrent kind of gamers.
Online gaming will continue to rise. Sooner or later there will be games made with modified 'older mmorpg approach' as well. There will be in miniority sure - but they will eventually - times when 'one game design for all' is coming to an end. Only question is how long it will take.
Sure, but simulation-lovers have historically (stretching way back before MMORPGs) been a much smaller population than game-lovers.
The fact that simulation games have existed since before MMORPGs proves their longevity -- but that history also paints a clear picture of (a) far fewer sims made than games, and (b) smaller budgets (except for the companies that went out of business or decided to stop making those types of games.)
So you can expect that trend to continue for the foreseeable future.
The thing you don't seam to understand is that the mmorpg genre isn't a genre where game for the purpose of computer gaming is working very well. They are other genre that fit that role very well, like fps and arcade games, because those genre from their birth are just that "computer games".
But RPGs, can they be just "games"? they are born somewhere else, for an other purpose than just playing a games for the heck of it. Can board games be just games, without the strategical component? So how much you can take away from role playing in RPGs?
Can you reduce roles into dps/tank/healer and be able to call them roles? Can you reduce playing a role into xp/gear grind?
Can you reduce roles into addiction aspect (for the role you are supposed to create), and can you reduce playing into gambling mechanism (die rolls)?
Can you reduce role playing to their fundamental principle, twist them to your advantages and keep on claiming you are doing "role playing games"?
Is a disguised party in a casino a role playing game? Sure hell it isn't to me.
Stupid. YOu cut your own throat by just griefing and not connecting the dots. Your first statement you pay for a box retail and keep up the $15 month fee for "Plain field and cardboard cut out tree". THAT RIGHT THERE, is why games have gone to shit. Because you allowed them to take your money and monthly fee, more than a cell phone service at that time, for CRAP. And after, every popped up looking for suckers like you. Quit the mmorpg genre, or support the illegal or F2P market. OR forever suffer. MORONS
Comments
What I don't understand with this post is that the MMO genre is the only one where some people have this 'sandbox > themepark' logic.
No other genre has fans that has this logic at all.
Single player RPG?
I don't think you can say 'Elder Scrolls is superior to Mass Effect series' cause they are different games. Both appeal to their playerbase and are really awesome games.
Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.
This this and this.
Yes the problem is that they are all pretty much the same thing.
The industry has sorta stagnated with regards to AAA game companies. This is because there has been only 1 extreme success sense the older times, which is WoW. Lineage 1, UO, SWG, DAOC, EQ, AC, L2.... EVERY one of these games were VERY different and succeeded very well in what they did differently. RIFT, LOTRO, WOW, WAR, and XX and from what I've seen SWTOR...sure and AoC, while they have some differences, the major flavor of them are quite similar. Very similar, actually. This is the problem for most of us gamers who have been playing these for a while. It isn't, however, a problem for the developers because with tens of millions of possible players, it really doesn't matter how similar they are as long as they are polished and do what they say they are supposed to do.
I did not add GW because you don't have to pay a monthly, so it will be common for people to buy GW and anything else as well. That's smart marketing for them.
If TSW is a success, you'll bet that some more games will be made with classless systems and a more immersive story.
If ArchAge is a success, you'll bet that someone with AAA funding will try and create a sandbox again.
Seeing games like TSW/ArchAge is a good thing for the current stagnation, but if both fail.... there will be another 5 to 10 years of mcmmo... I don't mean that to be deamining. It's a formula that brings in the money even if it's not entirely too original. By no means am I saying the formula is evil. Stagnation is the "evil".
Bottomline...MMOS are at a wall and eventually...someone's gotta jump over it. Sandbox are more fun for me because I like the gaming world aspect that's impossible to find on a console (at the moment). MMOs are forced questing now with "sports" (mostly meh PvP).
There needs to be more variety of choices is the thing I'm saying. Indie companies are trying to fill that role, but it's pretty hard. I bet they could make a themepark pretty easy (still is a difficult job) because the formula is so obvious nowoadays.
Maybe they will stop with the Arrand Questing system and go with something better like fighting through dungeons than running back and forth turning in quests. That is my biggest problem.
There has been some good innovation though that have improved the genre more than people are thinking. It is when you don't have those things you realize they are gone. Go back and play EQ1 for a while and see what i'm talking about. The only reason I go back sometimes is because I don't have to quest for experience. You will notice that the spells are boring when having to cast them over and over without much of a rotation. Warriors are god aweful because they don't have hardly any abilities to fight with accept for AA's. EQ2 made up for that though, but they added the quest system in there which screwed it all up. I would say that there would have to be a new MMO come out that focused on solo and group dungeon crawls that require no quest, but is fun to just explore and spend time in while you gain experience until it is time to move to another area.
This is the way I see it of course, others may have their own too, that is what makes us human beings. I would like to close though with the fact that we are getting older and life is changing right a long with the games which will be changing to adjust to their player base. If we become a minority of that genre then we won't be that important and will have to move on just like with music.
The issue is that the studios with money refuse to take that risk and do something new. They all wait for the indie studios to take the risk for them and use that to justify their decisions.
True and false really. THe true spirit of what mmos were did die you had no true accomplishment or difficulty, as well as feel f the older games is gone. Same with the community that was around back then. Yet also with the dumbing down, and standardization of mmos the genre has hit a stride wheere it is accessable to many more, meaning it must be more accectable to masses of people, ovr a group of simularly minded people. Mmo's as living worlds are dying and will most likely end up as a zombiefied version of it'self never trully dieing, yet never reemerging, since that is not what the majority wants. Generally speaking all mmos are pretty well off in ways, but if you look idivigualy a good percentage are failing or dead already, also even wow is affected it is nothing like it was at launch or even lk largely, becoming more and more focued in hwo you move and prgress in it.
I got to diagree with you on questing i love questing to lvel, since it actually is a way to learn and experince the story a aarea. Though most mmo'er are more of the click grab, and kill group kicking thru the quests to speed to max level. If they made more ways to level both mob, quest, and non-combative choices that are worthwhile and equal in overal leveling time. YOu would not really have that issue, since you can still grind mobs and level but yet the amount of experince you gain for quests+mob kills is better right now. To me grinding mobs all day is stale and boring sicne you learn nothing, and just kill wiht the same overall method. I kinda wish the quest system would have a layed questing addition that as you finish parts of a qquest it just reveals the next stage of the quest, as a way to releive some of the back travealing of questing.
With all the peole in mmo gaming you need three to four leveling roots that are just as viable as the others, but suited to certain playstyles, Aso bump the experiience to level so that even power leveling it would take several months to hit max, and then addd more content and activities for areas you level in to keep your players entertained. I remeber taking alot of time to level in even wow compared to what even lk or cata leveling is. Nerfing the hp of boss as well as diffficulty of instacne is another killed since it demeans as well as devalues the enjoyment as well as group activities in the instances. The motto of "the game staarts at end gam." is so moronic and backwards, i would rather spend months or years with a guild and friends leveling, then spend weeks racing to make sure i can get into the new content before it gets nerfed/
Well its clear the genre got totally undressed from most of their rpg elements. Look at the pre trammel UO. And the last gen. Just try to compare them a second. There is such a rift between those games. And everything that was supposed to make them "RPG", got scrapped.
You can't trap mobs anymore because they wouldn't respawn until they die, they never fixed their spawners, they just forbid trapping mobs. You can't make trap anymore, you can't even drop gold on the floor because in siege some use that to crash the server and keep their castle. Did they fixed that? no they just made it so you can't drop stuff anymore. Why would you want to have so many strange roles, treasure hunter, herb gatherer, tamer, sheep herder, medium, pickpocket, thief... lets scrap those too, in fact lets keep only the warrior/wizard/rogue role, because the other are just crappy and useless anyway, yes we did coded them in a stupid way to begin with, but nobody know that except us, lets pretend they are really useless because everyone agree they are really useless. WHy would you even want to fix all those roles anyway, for whom? And the good roles like tamer or thief are really too exploitable anyway. You want to have a unique character? We can't make dressing layers in 3D, so just give them few armor per level range, and lets call this officially "changing appearance", you know who i'm referring to right?. And lets not put any dying system too because its useless anyway and its too much work. Mobs ai is a real problem, and an exploiting mess. Lets make mob ai dummy like, and forbid luring. Lets scrap all the time sink too, i mean they don't work anyway and nobody want them. Pvp? are you crazy that stuff doesn't work, its so exploitable. Housing? bha that's a stupid feature if you don't instance it, and its stupid if you instance it, so why bother with this? I really could continue that list to no end and point everything that make a rpg world just that, got undressed by the game companies and players alike at every new gen because they just didn't want to deal with those. We don't play/make games to have to deal with problems isn't it? They are just games for god sake, which is both true and sad.
So what are we left with? you got it, arcade/fps games with the addictive element of rpg (xp/gear grind), thats really all that is left basically from old RPGs. Even crafting/economy barely survive. And it please the 12million guys, i mean this is so perfect right? We all live in a perfect world where everyone smile and is happy, there is no problem anymore, since they all got dealt with, right? The only real problem now is that those games are just addictive shitty and boring games, they are not what they used to be. And you can have 12million behind your theory it won't make it more interesting, neither for us, neither for that 12 millions of smiling and happy customers.
And sometime you have those 12million happy dudes wake up, and ask stupid questions. Why don't we have pvp in our mmo, aren't those about multiplayer gameplay, so why no pvp? Why don't we have world pvp since arena are so great? yes why really i mean, i can hear the dev say, ho fuck how will we pull this guys? fuck wasn't pvp supposed to not ever be back in mmos, isn't the horse like dead since a decade?. So whats next? Hey guys why can't our toon have some real personality? Ye that's maybe the next "stuff" or maybe not. The thing is the genre got so naked with the 2k generation, you just had nothing left, so you cannot do anything but add new things now, and that's what WOW began to do in 2005, just like SWG, maybe even EQ2, and it probably won't stop anytime soon. Whatever some think they know exactly what the 12million want. Rift is the same crap and is boring, no shit Sherlock? how can it be?
So guys don't loose faith, it probably cannot be worth anyway, so it might go for the better, or am I just to confident in humankind? What i just wanted to say is that the genre went so badly because probably both gamers and game companies decided to put aside all those aspects for many reasons. They'll probably come back anyway, slowly but surely, probably, it won't be easy for sure
What I thought - exactly.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Well that is partially true actually.
Earlier games were also for gamers, just for diffrent kind of gamers.
Concept of modern mmorpg's is to create game-like experience, older mmorpg's concept was to create virtual-world-simulator-like experience.
That's why character was expected f.e. to wait for a boat in harbour to sail to other island, becasue normally there are no boats ready to insant-take single people, they just get off at certain hours (like in rl trains and busses don't wait to take single passanger, but have set hours when they take off).
Nowadays concept is that this is game, and world is made for player convenience, so he start to travel instantly after he decides (frequently just teleporting, even without any explanation).
It is bad or worse?
Any of the above. It is just diffrent design.
There are just players who want convenience and to play a game ,and there are players who want to play in a virtual world.
There are very few if any made for players longing for games that 'simulate worlds' - that's why they are dissatisfied.
Until some investor decide that there is enough of them to target game for them again, you'll only see current design aaa tiles.
For a while developers wanted to create games that were trying to cater both for players longing for games that were made to 'mimick-virtual-worlds' ( f.e. you have to wait for world, you have to find things yourself as there is no graphic arrow on the ground in fantasy world showing you the way, teleporting needed some kind of portal or at least spell to do - when nowadays every player insta-teleport to dungeon from anywhere without any portal / spell / etc ) - this have not worked obviously.
Games usually changed over time to cater more for game-like experience, sometimes expanding their playerbase doing this (vanilla WoW vs. WotlK WoW), sometimes staying roughly same playerbase (SoA Lotro vs Moria / Mirkwood Lotro) and sometimes losing players (pre-Nge SWG vs Nge-SWG).
Of course genre as a whole gained players as there is more people preferring game-like experience with games sacrificing beliviablity, logic, immersion and hardships in order to create more conveniant and comfort gameplay.
Still there is certain % of people that want diffrent experience and they are not gonna disappear, as contrary to popular belief it is not only a issue of age or experiences, more an issue of prefences.
Some people prefer to travel using a car as they decide exact time when to go, how fast and what route to take, and others prefer to take a train as they don't have to take an effort of driving and maintaining a car, but they can read, sleep or do some work during travelling instead.
Just diffrent expectations and preferences - older design is not 'worse' or 'better' objectively.
Is is SUBJECTIVE.
Online gaming will continue to rise. Sooner or later there will be games made with modified 'older mmorpg approach' as well. There will be in miniority sure - but they will eventually - times when 'one game design for all' is coming to an end. Only question is how long it will take.
Old mmo where made for dnd nerds-which I am one,table top gamers,larpers,etc..the games had a different purpose build those worlds in a game.todays game goals is to build a good video game that appeals a wide base. the culture was always and still is niche the people who are asking for game like past seem to forget that.
That's because MMORPGs are supposed to be massively multiplayer. There's the difference. An expected social interaction. An expected worldly coexistence.
What's the draw of an MMORPG that's different than a Single Player Game (even with multiplayer options)? It's the masses.
And when you look at the Themepark model, you find the same model as a Single Player Game. But this model divides these masses into what plays like Single Player in multiplayer mode. There goes the "masses" feature that is the attraction of an MMORPG.
Once upon a time....
I agree with the OP in many aspects! And you are not alone in how you feel, I feel the same thing, I can't find myself playing an MMORPG today for more than 2-3 months.
Actually I haven't been able to play an MMORPG like I did UO for 5 years since UO, SWG came close but they had to force me to stop playing it with the NGE.
Largelly due to the fact that MMORPG's addopted the "Single player game approach" rather than the "Living Breathing World Community game approach".
Microtransactions and the spiting up of content is just another step towards the wrong direction, that was much probably made up by someone that thought they are a genius in Marketing/Fiancnes, but I think that person is the most selfish, greedy, egocentic career oriented person in existance within the genre, that has no idea what gamers really want and how it makes us all feel.
And no I do not beleive that because of these changes the genre became popular, far from it, the genre simply became more popular because the Internet itself became more popular and part of our every day lives.
back at the time of UO and EQ, most households did not even have a computer yet, it was considered a Geeky thing, then few years later everyone has one everyone started connecting to it, our Operating Systems were build for internet fucntionality, You installed windows and it asked you "How are you conneting to the Internet"...not even if you had it or not, then you had all these offers in the form of desktop shortuts relating to the internet remind you constantly that something exists out ther and you are missing it. So thus slowly people got on, and more people started taking part in browsing, and forums and discussion groups and also games and today Social networks, Take the growth of Facebook subscibers, compare that to the first year, there were less Facebook people and there were less people people playing Facebook games too, bow there are more people in Facebook and there are more people playing facebook games too.
Same thing happened here with MMOs.
But you see the Business sence works differently than our Gamer sense.
A business person looks at this and says, "Wow, more people on the Internet playing games now, we need to change our formula and make more money out of it, lets all establish trends so that all of us benefit from it and the people comming to play accept it as the "norm". "
So it seems to work because most people playing MMO's today are ignorant of how MMO's were before them, and simply follow like a herd of sheep going to the pasture to eat the fresh grass..little do they know about the intentions of the Herder.
We, the old MMOErs are the black sheep in all of that story...trying to defy the Herder... and I think our numbers and voice is getting bigger, because the current direction of the genre is boring as hell and more and more sheep are waking up more quickly, there will be a time in the near future that we shall see a come back to the "Living breathing World Community game" approach of designing MMO's without all the crappy microtransactions and content being spoonfed to players.
The first Team of Devs to realise this will surprise the industry like Blizz did 6 years ago. The Social aspect of MMO's that has been lost will be what will save it again, and all those lacking the capacity to understand this will retire to living off writting books. as they will be replaced by a new generation of designers and Dvellopers.
Patience is a virtue friends
Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
I agree with the OP..thats why I went back to my favourite MMO from 6 years ago...
The ONLY MMO you were allowed 'to make it your own"
This.
I want the MMO genre of the D&D/PnP/Mud type. DAoC preSI please. EQ1 as well.
I am not satisfied with any current MMOs at all except Wurm Online. At least there I can participate in the "world" in a fashion that I find to my liking.
For everyone else... sorry, but I did not invite you here... but I wasn't invited to the old MMOs either... so we are even.
I will leave debate there and agree to disagree with those opposed to the type of MMOs I enjoyed.
I agree. The direction MMO's have taken from the more virtual-world experience of the earlier MMOs are not to my liking. I stick with the MMORPG genre because I like playing characters and games that I can sink a lot of time into - however, I still prefer games like UO over more "gamey" games like WoW.
Everything always comes back around. I'd say within the next decade that we'll start seeing more free world, virtual based simulation games come back into the fray. But like everything in culture, it takes a long time for things to shift. We saw the MMO genre shift slowly into what it now is and we'll probably see it shift again over this decade much like the last. That's how things go.
We'll have another UO or similar game somewhere down the line. At least Archeage looks promising.
Archeage Droped the ball already that wont have full loot or any loot drop at all making pvp worthless. If your not looking for pvp then it will still be good but if you are then all you get is pointless pvp killing for killing and later on when you ship battle it cost you to pvp with no reward .
Not to metion I have a feeling it will be a loot grinder with drop loot being better then crafted loot making crafting worthless out side ship building and house building.
Disappointing to hear. The game world does look interesting and I like the pace of combat based on what I've seen - however in all of the PvP/PvE videos I've seen, everyone uses the same 5 abilities which is also rather discouraging. And sort of silly when you are hitting people with 2 handers, casting fireballs, and then playing a lute to heal.
At least in UO magic was magic and you didn't whip out a musical instrument when buffing/healing. *Vas Ort Flam* *Corp Por* and your opponent goes *In Vas Mani* and whips out a lute or harp or drum to heal before you finish him off with your halby :P
Still going to be some time before we have a good, large budget, open world/loot MMO again. I'd say 2020ish.
Seems like most people are on the same page.
ie:
Games before were made to be an alternate world.
Games now are just...games...but I can get those anywhere, honestly.
By games now I mean games that are polished and working almost basically correctly at launch.
Will they return to the alternate world type of style? I bet they will eventually. I mean you're beating a dead hen right now with typical playstyles. Like I said before. Between 1997 and 2003-2005ish, pretty much no game was a "copy" or similar to the other (SWG-PCU, L1, L2, UO, AC, EQ, DAoC). Nowadays, everything tastes pretty much the same (Rift, WoW, AION, AoC, probably SWTOR, WAR...granted there are some differences, but the flavor is basically the same).
---Visit the forum I just made: http://makemymmo.forumotion.com/
---Collaborate on what your dream mmo is...
---By collaborate, I mean really think about it and not just toss up some random crap (well... go ahead and do that if you want).
Somebody said something in a certain way in this thread several pages back...
They said something to the effect of "the new MMOs are much better games for Gamers"
Then you say this:
There it is. So simple it could have run me over like a bus... and it did several times over the years.
People that participate in MMOs can be Players, or Gamers, or a little of both. There is a subtle yet distinct difference in the two groups of People.
I *am* a Player, not a Gamer.
Older MMOs were made more for Players...
Newer MMOs are NOW made more for Gamers...
and the difference in the design and ingame experience shows.
I just know some people in the past on these forums tried to point this out to me and others... my apologies for being such an idiot. and Thank you.
I compare it to the progress of manned space exploration.
First we went into orbit... then we went to the Moon... and the original crowd looked forward to heading to Mars and beyond... but somehow we ended up stuck back in orbit for decades (though in fancier rockets)...
The original MMOs all seemed to be trying different things... focusing on different aspects of gameplay and taking chances on things that seemed like big steps forward in gameplay - even if the graphics were fairly simple - the empahsis was on creating these very cool virtual worlds.
Along came WoW... did a lot of the basic things better... made a ton of money... and we've had companies trying to copy that model for nearly 10 years.
Congrats, know you know how real gamers feel about what the inferior console has done to the entire industry...
And the gay people in the industry who have no clue how to make a game.. (Sorry, but i dont think one straight person exist anymore)
Please exit stage right and hand the reigns back to the experts.. in short.. please everyone in the gaming industry today.. please fucking quit
Regards,
Nobotters - A better gaming experience
Sure, but simulation-lovers have historically (stretching way back before MMORPGs) been a much smaller population than game-lovers.
The fact that simulation games have existed since before MMORPGs proves their longevity -- but that history also paints a clear picture of (a) far fewer sims made than games, and (b) smaller budgets (except for the companies that went out of business or decided to stop making those types of games.)
So you can expect that trend to continue for the foreseeable future.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
The thing you don't seam to understand is that the mmorpg genre isn't a genre where game for the purpose of computer gaming is working very well. They are other genre that fit that role very well, like fps and arcade games, because those genre from their birth are just that "computer games".
But RPGs, can they be just "games"? they are born somewhere else, for an other purpose than just playing a games for the heck of it. Can board games be just games, without the strategical component? So how much you can take away from role playing in RPGs?
Can you reduce roles into dps/tank/healer and be able to call them roles? Can you reduce playing a role into xp/gear grind?
Can you reduce roles into addiction aspect (for the role you are supposed to create), and can you reduce playing into gambling mechanism (die rolls)?
Can you reduce role playing to their fundamental principle, twist them to your advantages and keep on claiming you are doing "role playing games"?
Is a disguised party in a casino a role playing game? Sure hell it isn't to me.
Stupid. YOu cut your own throat by just griefing and not connecting the dots. Your first statement you pay for a box retail and keep up the $15 month fee for "Plain field and cardboard cut out tree". THAT RIGHT THERE, is why games have gone to shit. Because you allowed them to take your money and monthly fee, more than a cell phone service at that time, for CRAP. And after, every popped up looking for suckers like you. Quit the mmorpg genre, or support the illegal or F2P market. OR forever suffer. MORONS