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The Secret World: A Sit Down with The Secret World

2

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  • VirusDancerVirusDancer Member UncommonPosts: 3,649

    Originally posted by JeroKane

    Originally posted by VirusDancer

    ...snip...

    On the PVE side it's only the tiny 0,1% of the playerbase (the hardcore min/max Raiders) who complain about such things.

    You know it and I know it.

    The vast and most vocal complains, causing the extreme "NERF" sledgehammers in MMORPG's, is due to the PVP'ers!

    Simply, because those PVP'ers only look from their very narrow minded 1 versus 1 PVP perspective!

    Their class MUST be able to beat any other class. The other one thinks that THEIR class MUST be able to beat any other class. Etc. Etc.

    It's EXACTLY what is happening in RIFT right now. Trion has been slamming the nerf hammer into their once unique soul system to such extremes, that most soul trees have become completely obsolete and useless!

    All because of PVP complaints!  NOT from PVE side!

    The same thing happened in WoW or any other MMO out there that has PVP.

    I do not know that in the least.  Thus, the reason I stated what I did.  The games are PvE games.  The changes generally reflect PvE changes.  PvE changes are brought about by PvE players.

    PvP in most games is an afterthought.  Imagine sitting down to dinner at a restaurant.  You might have a nice thick steak, some fries or potatoes or the like.  There'll be a sprig of parsley too perhaps.  PvP is that sprig of parsley.

    Look at the dev attention given to PvP sections of forums.  I know, I know...it is time consuming to find any.

    Look at patch notes for various games for items addressing PvP specifically.  Again, I know...it is time consuming to find any.

    Your obvious distaste for PvP does not change that.  Your narrowminded view of it...does not change that.

    Step back, open your eyes, and realize that the issue with balance arises from the PvE side and with PvE players.

    PvE is the largest part of the game.  PvE players make up the largest playerbase within the game.  They are the most vocal.  They get the most dev attention... it's that simple.

    I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?

    Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%

  • VirusDancerVirusDancer Member UncommonPosts: 3,649

    Originally posted by gimmesome

    Originally posted by czekoskwigel


    Originally posted by tawess

    As an old SWG player this fills me with dread... As balacing this will be absolute nightmare (that is the real reason behinde the NGE btw... They never figured out how to balance the skill system) but i wish them the best of luck.

    Fuck balance.   Not every character needs to perform in the exact same capacity as everyone else in every situation.  Even attempting to do so would be stupid.  Build your character to suit your playstyle and enjoy it!

    My sentiments exactly.      Class balances are overly tended to in order to try and make 2 faction systems work.     Everyone should not be a 1-man Army.    Bad enough that we have so many games in this genre that have healer classes that can destroy other classes toe-to-toe.   There's no real utility when every class is a powerhouse.    This is one of the important reasons why 3+factions should be the standard for PvP-centric games.    

    It goes well beyond PvP though.  Look at the changes coming to WoW as they change the talent system yet again with MoP.  PvE players have wanted to roll with whatever build tickled their fancy...only to complain that either they did not feel that the build was as viable as another or being outright told they needed to respec that garbage if they wanted to play with their fellows.

    It s a dance - that involves both the players and the devs.  While Build X of Class A need not be homogenous with Build Y of Class B... each should provide some semblance of value and viability.  That is on the devs.  Then we move on to the players...and things get ugly.  They only want the cookie cutter builds.

    We can't change the playerbase.  We know the majority of them are a-holes that we would kick in the face if nobody was looking...lol.  So it generally becomes a case of trying to find like-minded players, those looking for fun, willing to go outside the cookie cutter arena.  As long as the devs do their part, there are some players willing to put in that effort - and they generally have a rewarding gaming experience.

    I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?

    Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%

  • gimmesomegimmesome Member Posts: 362

    Originally posted by VirusDancer

    Originally posted by gimmesome

    My sentiments exactly.      Class balances are overly tended to in order to try and make 2 faction systems work.     Everyone should not be a 1-man Army.    Bad enough that we have so many games in this genre that have healer classes that can destroy other classes toe-to-toe.   There's no real utility when every class is a powerhouse.    This is one of the important reasons why 3+factions should be the standard for PvP-centric games.    

    It goes well beyond PvP though.  Look at the changes coming to WoW as they change the talent system yet again with MoP.  PvE players have wanted to roll with whatever build tickled their fancy...only to complain that either they did not feel that the build was as viable as another or being outright told they needed to respec that garbage if they wanted to play with their fellows.

    It s a dance - that involves both the players and the devs.  While Build X of Class A need not be homogenous with Build Y of Class B... each should provide some semblance of value and viability.  That is on the devs.  Then we move on to the players...and things get ugly.  They only want the cookie cutter builds.

    We can't change the playerbase.  We know the majority of them are a-holes that we would kick in the face if nobody was looking...lol.  So it generally becomes a case of trying to find like-minded players, those looking for fun, willing to go outside the cookie cutter arena.  As long as the devs do their part, there are some players willing to put in that effort - and they generally have a rewarding gaming experience.

    I have to agree here, but I think in the big picture it's really both.

    MMORPGs started out PVE only.    Even when PVP entered the picture, it was and still mostly is an afterthought or a "feature" in the generally PVE games.      At those times up till recently, it appears as though class balances were caused by PVP outcries.   "my class should be able to kill everyone"      But, from what I've noticed, when DAMAGE METERS and DPS CHARTS and HEALING CHARTS and all the PVP-style ranking systems entered the PVE world, the PVE players went nuts.   Those ranks and charts and e-sport statistic completely took over the importance of PVE content, and now dictate every choice made by PVE players (the end game pve)  -- This is where we are right now.      Class balances are now the cause of PVE outcries based on a PVP scoring and rating mechanic.    It's sad and funny to me, considering all the name calling PVE and PVP players use to belittle eachother.   Esp how PVE-only players think they are more mature and less competitive, even though everything having to do with PVE now directly resembles PVP competition.

    Who's DPS is higher?  Who's Gearscore is higher?  Who's Healing is higher? Who's threat management is better?  Who's damage reduction is stronger?  epeen epeenepeen

  • VirusDancerVirusDancer Member UncommonPosts: 3,649

    Originally posted by gimmesome

    Originally posted by VirusDancer


    Originally posted by gimmesome

    My sentiments exactly.      Class balances are overly tended to in order to try and make 2 faction systems work.     Everyone should not be a 1-man Army.    Bad enough that we have so many games in this genre that have healer classes that can destroy other classes toe-to-toe.   There's no real utility when every class is a powerhouse.    This is one of the important reasons why 3+factions should be the standard for PvP-centric games.    

    It goes well beyond PvP though.  Look at the changes coming to WoW as they change the talent system yet again with MoP.  PvE players have wanted to roll with whatever build tickled their fancy...only to complain that either they did not feel that the build was as viable as another or being outright told they needed to respec that garbage if they wanted to play with their fellows.

    It s a dance - that involves both the players and the devs.  While Build X of Class A need not be homogenous with Build Y of Class B... each should provide some semblance of value and viability.  That is on the devs.  Then we move on to the players...and things get ugly.  They only want the cookie cutter builds.

    We can't change the playerbase.  We know the majority of them are a-holes that we would kick in the face if nobody was looking...lol.  So it generally becomes a case of trying to find like-minded players, those looking for fun, willing to go outside the cookie cutter arena.  As long as the devs do their part, there are some players willing to put in that effort - and they generally have a rewarding gaming experience.

    I have to agree here, but I think in the big picture it's really both.

    MMORPGs started out PVE only.    Even when PVP entered the picture, it was and still mostly is an afterthought or a "feature" in the generally PVE games.      At those times up till recently, it appears as though class balances were caused by PVP outcries.   "my class should be able to kill everyone"      But, from what I've noticed, when DAMAGE METERS and DPS CHARTS and HEALING CHARTS and all the PVP-style ranking systems entered the PVE world, the PVE players went nuts.   Those ranks and charts and e-sport statistic completely took over the importance of PVE content, and now dictate every choice made by PVE players (the end game pve)  -- This is where we are right now.      Class balances are now the cause of PVE outcries based on a PVP scoring and rating mechanic.    It's sad and funny to me, considering all the name calling PVE and PVP players use to belittle eachother.   Esp how PVE-only players think they are more mature and less competitive, even though everything having to do with PVE now directly resembles PVP competition.

    Who's DPS is higher?  Who's Gearscore is higher?  Who's Healing is higher? Who's threat management is better?  Who's damage reduction is stronger?  epeen epeenepeen

    My first MMORPG was UO - one of the first MMORPGs.  It most definitely was not PvE only.  I miss those days of hunting Reds as a PKK sometimes.

    No doubt I agree that it is both PvE and PvP players which cause the problem...it is the playerbase.

    It is kind of funny to go back to games like Shadowbane, where we would slaughter each other on sight - but we generally wanted a better game and that came across in the forums..  Course, that was back before ToO - not sure how the game changed after that.

    The playerbase of MMOs has definitely changed...and not imho, for the better.

    I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?

    Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%

  • VirusDancerVirusDancer Member UncommonPosts: 3,649

    Still, TSW is the only game I'm looking forward to at this point.  GW2?  Nah, not in the least.  TOR?  Lol, nope.

    I had enjoyed RIFT because of the ACS, but the devs so screwed that up by bouncing around with FotM - I left that at seven months.

    I wish TSW was going more with a hybrid faction system along the lines of what EVE has.  I like the idea of both NPC and PC factions that matter.  The game is what it is though, and even with this - I'm still looking forward to it at this time.

    edit: As much as people dislike Funcom, I still have great memories from playing AO.

    I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?

    Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%

  • Dr.RazzberryDr.Razzberry Member Posts: 9

    I fully, 100% support class-less mmo's like TSW.... Think about it... if they nerf a skill/don't like it, change it out - easy -find a new way to play that suites you better, without having to reroll a character and start at level 1. MMO's grow and evolve, there will always be some skills that are better than others, I don't see why that's a problem.

  • gimmesomegimmesome Member Posts: 362

    Originally posted by VirusDancer

    My first MMORPG was UO - one of the first MMORPGs.  It most definitely was not PvE only.  I miss those days of hunting Reds as a PKK sometimes.

    No doubt I agree that it is both PvE and PvP players which cause the problem...it is the playerbase.

    It is kind of funny to go back to games like Shadowbane, where we would slaughter each other on sight - but we generally wanted a better game and that came across in the forums..  Course, that was back before ToO - not sure how the game changed after that.

    The playerbase of MMOs has definitely changed...and not imho, for the better.

    True enough.   A lot of vets will swear that UO was actually "THE" first, but it technically wasn't, but in terms of accessibility and popularity, it may as well have been; or at least labelled as the 'FLAGSHIP' of the MMORPG genre.  That being said, it proves both of our points.    

    In EQ, everyone was virtually on the same side and the progression was based on teamwork and patience and adventure. There was no METERS and GAUGES and other superficial systems in place forcing the players to pay attention to numbers instead of situation and outcome.

    In UO, PVP was rampant and there were plenty of people working against everyone else. BUT -  PVP was for fun.  for RP.  For thrills. For excitement and the rush.  it was a bonus that one could possibly find some good loot on a slain opponent.   This is why imo there wasn't a big deal about some builds being "stronger" than others - A player's progression, even in terms of itemization was not dependant on their success or failure in a pvp encounter.     

    In Today's MMOGLs, the very reason to PVP (designed by development) is to get better gear to enhance your characters' performance/power.   

    In Today's MMOGLs, the very reason to PVE (designed by development) is to get better gear to enhance your characters' meter logs 

    So, in that regard, I guess it's no wonder that players on both sides of the spectrum cry for constant balances, tweaks, and nerfs.     Someone's always getting in the way of their shiny loots.   They care so much about every inch of 'fairness' between classes because their own character's progression depends on the ability to hold it's own against everyone else, and it seems like the further along we go into this genre, the more that becomes the only way available to progress and even customize our characters.

     

  • shantidevashantideva Member UncommonPosts: 186

    Played Meridian 59 long before UO..Full loot PVP with permanent red flags for PK's etc etc.

    UO owes ALOT from Meridian.

    "Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day!"

  • ZibooZiboo Member UncommonPosts: 158

    VirusDancer you're so correct >>

    Tank Class A wants to tank as well as Tank Class B.

    DPS Class C wants to DPS as well as DPS Class D.

    Healing Class E wants to heal as well as Healing Class F.

    The various arguments amongst classes such as Warriors and Rogues over who should do the most damage.  Then adding in the ranged classes.  These guys are always squabbling and arguing over things such as this.

    People do not run damage meters for PvP.  They run them for PvE.  The same goes for healing.  Players are always arguing over the PvE side of the game - they want everybody to be the same, to be able to do everything the same - everything homogenized.<<<

    Class balance is impossible to get, personally I'm looking forward to a skill based game.  As others have said if they change/nerf/remove a skill - learn a new one.

    TSW is going ot be awesome if FunCom puts out the product I know they can versus the mess AoC was at launch.

    Proud member of Hammerfist Clan Gaming Community.

    Currently playing: RIFT, EQ2, WoW, LoTRO
    Retired: Warhammer, AoC, EQ
    Waiting: SWToR & GW2

  • kinikukiniku Member Posts: 53

    I appreciate MMORPG.com fostering the conveyance of the tidbits of info the developers choose to release but ever since Rift the prerelease/preorder hype building has become worse than Christmas marketing machine the day after Oct 31st.  The "exclusive" interviews and limted "hands on" columns really don't mean much.   What matters to me are the hard reviews that are eventually released -often very late after actual public release-  by this site.  I read a few reviews from several sources and then make my informed decision to spend $50.00 to jump with my free month.

     

     

  • AeolronAeolron Member Posts: 648
    It's funny that most people on this site annualize the game before it comes out and yet they basically know nothing on the game itself. Instead of complaining about cash shops and pve pvp, just wait for the game to come out. Its a game get real, play the damn thing and stop pretending to be freaking developers , because most of you or all of you are not.
  • Entropy14Entropy14 Member UncommonPosts: 675

    If an MMO with a cash shop kills it for you, you may be able to play 1% of all MMO's out there, since pretty much every MMO has a cash shop. Since this game is  not F2P the game wont be pay to win.

     

    But all in all, I find it awesome that they are not making a cookie cutter game and trying out new concepts and ideas, I hope things go well for them for not making the standard fantasy tab targett, talent tree MMO

  • nicariftnicarift Member UncommonPosts: 70

    It would seem to me after reading most peoples negative thoughts on every other future mmo (swotor,gw2,etc) it would seem that this should be the focus mmo. It pretty famn far removed from the dreaded WOW experience. Cash shop seem like a rather small allowance for what this game is going to provide!

  • ElricmerrenElricmerren Member Posts: 295

    Originally posted by loopback1199



    Originally posted by Elricmerren




    Originally posted by czekoskwigel






    Originally posted by tawess



    "the Secret World doesn’t believe in classes, and neither does it in levels. What replaces these are the skills which are selectable from a huge list, each offering perks and advantages, whilst also giving the ability to choose your own role within the game."





     





    As an old SWG player this fills me with dread... As balacing this will be absolute nightmare (that is the real reason behinde the NGE btw... They never figured out how to balance the skill system) but i wish them the best of luck.

    Fuck balance.   Not every character needs to perform in the exact same capacity as everyone else in every situation.  Even attempting to do so would be stupid.  Build your character to suit your playstyle and enjoy it!

     True but it is just bad design not to attempt to minimize the advantage and disadvantage you have from a characetr to character basis. Having a character that under proforms by too much would reduce how much you enjoy the game even if by a slght amount. Keeping thigns close mind you not equal is a good way of allowing people to enjoy and feel competitive. Balance is need to keeep people eing able to play as they wish wihtout feeling they are draging behind or causing others to be annoyed in a group.  You be in a group and get complained and talked down to about hwo you made dumb choices that are not making waisted time in a group, i would rather they keep the differece in between build close with alot fo nique styles and choice being viable.






     

    In real life you didn't have to work at mcdonalds =P You could have done anything you wanted, be it a lawyer, doctor, waste collector, etc. You picked your skills and went with it, why should a game be any different? People might talk down to a burger flipper, but at the end of the day those talking down still shelled out the cash for the food. Doesn't matter what 'level' you are or how skilled you might think someone else is, so long as your not some panhandling bum, you've probably got something someone else needs no matter how littel used it might seem. I'm hoping this game is no different. It would be a nice change to not have the pathetic healer/tank/dps builds that every other game ALWAYS has to have. Besides, even in those types of games, a better strategy almost always beat the buttons being spammed.

     Real life is real life tthough if you look at it those within a simular carrear choice or job are relatively equal in alot of regards. One lawer and another might have different levels of knowledge, yet alot of them will stay pretty close by their peers/equals to stay competitive. The games are about enjoyment for many people, which many want to merely be competitive in thier chosen job with others in their same job since they both do the same job.  It would be like having a group of workers in a mine working three times long for half as much, compared to another group of mners that works less while ganing more  out of thee sheer fact of their choice in which company to work for. IS it fair as well as enjoyable to not allow those that feel they have been given a raw deal a chance to better their situation? IF you have any buld that is severlly under proforming (mnd you severly meaning comletely unviable and laughable.) then that buld or builds should be buffed up to being viable so that it can proform it's job like others with a simular job can. THis is taking into account two dps with over the same job no cc or buffs really that differ between them; why should class A that is a copy of class B with a slight dffernce in styles as well as play be hugely better and more viable then class B?

  • FoomerangFoomerang Member UncommonPosts: 5,628

    Hmm Dragon or Illuminati... dragon...illum..dragon...illum...templar?

    decisions decisions... cant wait for april!

  • AkaisAkais Member UncommonPosts: 274

    I have high hopes for this game but am concerned about the chosen launch period. It seems too early and Funcom has a history of launching their MMOs in an unfinished state.

    I hope this one doesn't because that is the first thing players familiar with Funcum will be looking for.

  • FoomerangFoomerang Member UncommonPosts: 5,628


    Originally posted by Akais
    I have high hopes for this game but am concerned about the chosen launch period. It seems too early and Funcom has a history of launching their MMOs in an unfinished state.I hope this one doesn't because that is the first thing players familiar with Funcum will be looking for.
    I can understand that. I'm goin for it anyway heh.

    btw Funcum? hahah

  • VirusDancerVirusDancer Member UncommonPosts: 3,649

    Originally posted by Akais

    I have high hopes for this game but am concerned about the chosen launch period. It seems too early and Funcom has a history of launching their MMOs in an unfinished state.

    I hope this one doesn't because that is the first thing players familiar with Funcum will be looking for.

    Initial work on the game started in 2002...paused...resumed in 2006...paused...resumed in 2007....paused...resumed in 2008...trimmed in 2009, delayed...EA signed on to co-pub 2011....

    ...it is that last thing more than anything Funcom has done or not done that bothers me.

    EA...blecch.

    RIFT started around 2006...released in March this year.

    So a game that has been off and on since 2002 to be released ten years later, lol - does not seem too soon.

    Just that trmming in 2009, EA signing on... maybe I'll just never forgive them for EnB, eh?

    I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?

    Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%

  • FoomerangFoomerang Member UncommonPosts: 5,628

    I think the reason I'm so hyped for this game is that it seems just soooo nerdy. Like old school pc game nerdy. Like I'm gonna be playing with a bunch of real nerds. Not the stupid hipster nerds. I get the feeling I will be surrounded by number crunching role playing dweebs and I gotta be honest it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy. Like I'll be home again.

  • XTC2XTC2 Member Posts: 30

    Hmmm. Let's see, I'm limited in the number of skills I can equip at any given time.

    Um...NO.  Same reason I don't play Guild Wars.

    What leads game developers to think we want limitations?  Limits on available skills means simple math equations for the game engine to compute Group Damage Combinations.  In other words, there's no chaos.  Everyone just hits the button called for to complete their role in a combination and there's only a whopping 8 skills available per toon to choose from at any given time.  Everyone selects their 8 and after that it's all simple math for a game to decide what to do when certain skills are completed in a certain order to complete the chain for landing a group combo.

    I'll take a game that gives stances, multiple ranged and melee skills, buffs and etc. available to me and my cohorts whenever and more imprtantly wherever we friggin' feel like using them, thanks.  20-odd active skills per toon means more chaos/variety.

    Too bad.  I was looking forward to the original concept, but a limited number of skills available at any given time equals simplistic non-fun.

    Moving onl.



     

  • Everyone claims they want games with some originality but then they bolt because the game does not work the exact way they want and the pressure to change a game has begun before it even starts. We can't all have our ways.

  • FratmanFratman Member Posts: 344

    No open world pvp? No thanks. What a lame design decision.

    Oh well, when this goes F2P I'm sure the devs will smarten up and add some full pvp servers.

  • ConsequenceConsequence Member UncommonPosts: 358

    Funcom said "only cosmetic" items for AoC too. Then, they sold items that clearly gave an advantage.  Fact is, when revenues flatten/decline or fail to reach a desired point they will sell anything they want in the cash shop. Or, as they did in AoC they will include advantageous items if u buy subscriptions for xx months, which is PTW in sheeps clothing. 



     

  • UsualSuspectUsualSuspect Member UncommonPosts: 1,243

    "The game is primarily story focused, whilst also massively multiplayer, but players can also opt for a purely solo experience."

     

    Well, there goes my hope for that game. When are developers going to realise that multiplayer games are not single player games? I hate what WoW has done to this genre.

  • w4rbytezw4rbytez Member Posts: 17

    Primarily story focused doesn't mean its not multiplayer, they just want to be available for solo players. Most all MMOs will stick to this standard as it covers the most basic sub-societies of MMO players. Even MW and BF have campaigns and they always will. As for my opinion on the game, most of what I've seen has been pretty intriguing story-wise, but lackluster in the graphics. I agree that it has some ingenuity, I just hope they don't rush it into production without honing the actually gameplay, especially considering how different the mechanics are from traditional MMOs.

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