Originally posted by SeanConnery Well Cactusman, I don't know about you or the rest of the people, but I play mmorpgs because I enjoy playing with lots of different people. And lets look at a couple of those games you just mentioned: KOTOR? What about it? Loved the game, but you tell me what was so ahead of the curve with it. Jade Empire? Loved the animations, too bad all you have to do is hop behind the thing then attack, the repeat. Fable is the only one you mentioned that really did something different, but mainly just different from other console games. It would definitly be nice to see character development of that kind of depth though in mmorpgs, indeed. Todays MMORPGS should take a hint from console games? I believe that is what everyone here is saying is being done, and that is exactly what is hurting the true mmorpg fan. Several years back a console rpg was a console rpg and an mmorpg was an mmorpg. However it seems the distinction has become somewhat murky. Real-time twitch, dare I say Planetside?
Well, what I am saying is these games while not perfect in any means are showing that RPGs don't have to follow a formula, they are expanding their horizons and trying some new methods of game play.
I always thought that MMOs had the best game premence of any genre, but they threw away all their potential by making horrible design decisions in the game play department. the depth of most MMOs is wonderfull, its just the game play I find to be lacking.
EQ I played it, hated it, slow and dull, it felt like developers had sat down to create a game that would punish me for playing it. And this is disapointing because I think EQ could have been very fun.
you really need balance in a game, I find the more hardcore MMOs to be exteremly boring, but I find the very casual MMOs to be shallow and ultimatly boring.
I made a description of my ideal MMO a while ago, what it boiled down to was take the virtual world of MMOs expand it, and add the gameplay of an action game, with underlying RPG character developement. and there you go.
Don't you worry little buddy. You're dealing with a man of honor. However, honor requires a higher percentage of profit
Originally posted by CactusmanX EQ I played it, hated it, slow and dull, it felt like developers had sat down to create a game that would punish me for playing it. And this is disapointing because I think EQ could have been very fun.
Without punishment, the rewards mean little. With to much punishment(the case of old EQ IMO), you eventually deter players. Many casuals did flock to EQ because they where starving for a somewhat harsh punishment and bear more punishment then they would normally, like a guy who was starving may overdrink water(and then be ill and bad from to much water).
Personnally what deter me from EQ was that they enforce ''raiding gameplay'' on me, and this is plainly unacceptable(and as in the spectrum above, make me extremely friendly toward solo games, while in facts, I am mostly a grouper). Even an Hamidon enforcement is unacceptable now.
I still hold to the debt system for casuals and lifes per month for hardcore mixt(a casual who run out of lifes for the month is either completely cluesless beyond any hope of redemption, or not a casual at all and a hardcore who is a ''casual poser'').
Raiding, PvP or tradeskilling have no place at the end of the grouping gameplay and should not even be present in the game if placed as an enforcement at the end of the grouping gameplay. Group uberness belong to groupers and to nobody else. (and to extension, you can replace group and groupers for solo and soloer, PvPers and PvP, raiders and raiding and so on with any aspect of the game)
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
True if everything is easily gained it means very little, but simply the act of dieing and having to respawn is enough punishment for me, anything more starts to boarderline in fusrtation zone, especially referring to getting ganked and having your loot stolen.
What takes me away from many MMOs like EQ is that I am very casual in my playing habbits. Around one or two hours a week, but I really want to have as much fun and implement as much story into what little time I can. Even Games like WoW and GW felt slow.
I would much rather put in 2 hours of fast hardcore gameplay a week and see rewards sooner than go at a much slower calmer pace but get rewards in the long run, because frankly I won't probably play any game everyday for a year, which to me is what I see alot of hardcore MMOs demanding.
Don't you worry little buddy. You're dealing with a man of honor. However, honor requires a higher percentage of profit
If you want to play a really difficult game should you definitely try out WWII Online.
There are no quests, no game generated missions (player posted missions ONLY), no bots or AI to fight against (except for stationary AAA AI around the industrial facilities, and stationary sentries in MG and ATG pits and towers around towns).
The only opponent you have to worry about is other players (WWII Online is a 100% PvP game).
No level up, no magic items, no super weapons, no magic skills. A newbee can kill a 4 years vet. Everyone is as vulnerable as the other.
The closes feature to "level up" is the rank structure. With higher rank will you have access to more infantry classes, vehicles, airplane and ships. To move up in rank in the army is very easy. In the air is it harder, and at sea does it take some time. However if you multi crew with a more experienced player will you reach higher ranks fast both in the air and at the sea.
Army; with the rank of Sergeant (UK), Sergent (FR) and Unteroffizier (DE) can you spawn anything. Equivivalent ranks for the airforces and navys gives you access to every type in those branches as well.
At Colour Sergeant (UK), Sergent-Chef (FR) and Unterfeldwebel (DE) do you get binocels for the infantry classes.
WWII Online has a persistant world that is 1:2 the real world of western Europe. The area with Choke Points (aka villages, towns and major cities) is 28.000 square kilometers. There are no zones or levels, or limitations what so ever for how you can move. You can run, drive or fly constantly from Köln in east to Dieppe in west unless some one kills you, or you don't have the time for it.
If wanted can you embark as a Paratrooper in western Germany and drop over England. The flight will take you some hours thoug.
Bytheway, when you log on to the gameserver for the first time, remember that the learning curve is pretty step. Most new players will be killed (black screen) without knowing what killed them. One-shot-kill is normal in WWII Online (as in real life). It happens to everyone all the time. Situation awareness is the only thing that will keep you alive.
That is a pretty good point, Shadowbane is the only MMORPG I have played that has a real risk to dieing, plus it has a real PvP ststem you die (this happens from every death in any way) anyway you die someone can loot your grave. Plus equipment damge & a XP debt. You can also build a city or siege someone else's, I got World of Warcraft, expecting a game like the other Warcraft games, just in MMO form, but someone at Blizzard must of taken the war out. What is with Battlegrounds, you can get any FPS with a multiplayer option & about play the same crap for fee. Play BG or UT2004 for free, I pick UT2004. Blizzard did hire the Evercare um..quest guys though so ofcourse it is World of Evercraft.
Sparre, give us a break with that crap. This isn't a thread to promote your favorite game.
The part about having twitch type gameplay could easily be seen in two different lights, so you are both right. But I do not see how they could successfully have both styles of gameplay
To me it seems the casual gamers want to be able to sit down for an hour and get the rewards that use to require many hours of play. And then, to justify their complaint they say it was just tedium and not difficulty that was removed.
The problem is there are more casual players, which are one in the same with console players you could say, and less of "hardcore" players. SO to make more money it is only logical that they aim to please the casual players first.
Just having to respawn should not be punishment enough. Death should definitly be frustrating, because then you will pay very good attention not to die. I do like the idea of rewarding people who don't die, as well. Unfortunately there would be people who play a whole lot, like me, who wouldn't die at all. So if my xp % kept going up, once again the casual gamer would jump in and complain that it is "not fair." And because there are so many more casual players, that system would not work.
Casual players want the same benefits as hardcore players. If John and Bob have the same job, but John puts in 60 hours a week and Bob puts in 40, even though Bob could put in 60 if he wanted to, does that give Bob the right to complain that John is making more money? NO
Comments
Well, what I am saying is these games while not perfect in any means are showing that RPGs don't have to follow a formula, they are expanding their horizons and trying some new methods of game play.
I always thought that MMOs had the best game premence of any genre, but they threw away all their potential by making horrible design decisions in the game play department. the depth of most MMOs is wonderfull, its just the game play I find to be lacking.
EQ I played it, hated it, slow and dull, it felt like developers had sat down to create a game that would punish me for playing it. And this is disapointing because I think EQ could have been very fun.
you really need balance in a game, I find the more hardcore MMOs to be exteremly boring, but I find the very casual MMOs to be shallow and ultimatly boring.
I made a description of my ideal MMO a while ago, what it boiled down to was take the virtual world of MMOs expand it, and add the gameplay of an action game, with underlying RPG character developement. and there you go.
Don't you worry little buddy. You're dealing with a man of honor. However, honor requires a higher percentage of profit
Without punishment, the rewards mean little. With to much punishment(the case of old EQ IMO), you eventually deter players. Many casuals did flock to EQ because they where starving for a somewhat harsh punishment and bear more punishment then they would normally, like a guy who was starving may overdrink water(and then be ill and bad from to much water).
Personnally what deter me from EQ was that they enforce ''raiding gameplay'' on me, and this is plainly unacceptable(and as in the spectrum above, make me extremely friendly toward solo games, while in facts, I am mostly a grouper). Even an Hamidon enforcement is unacceptable now.
I still hold to the debt system for casuals and lifes per month for hardcore mixt(a casual who run out of lifes for the month is either completely cluesless beyond any hope of redemption, or not a casual at all and a hardcore who is a ''casual poser'').
Raiding, PvP or tradeskilling have no place at the end of the grouping gameplay and should not even be present in the game if placed as an enforcement at the end of the grouping gameplay. Group uberness belong to groupers and to nobody else. (and to extension, you can replace group and groupers for solo and soloer, PvPers and PvP, raiders and raiding and so on with any aspect of the game)
- "If I understand you well, you are telling me until next time. " - Ren
Games are meant to be fun!
I mean whats fun about having a death penalty?
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Don't click here...no2
True if everything is easily gained it means very little, but simply the act of dieing and having to respawn is enough punishment for me, anything more starts to boarderline in fusrtation zone, especially referring to getting ganked and having your loot stolen.
What takes me away from many MMOs like EQ is that I am very casual in my playing habbits. Around one or two hours a week, but I really want to have as much fun and implement as much story into what little time I can. Even Games like WoW and GW felt slow.
I would much rather put in 2 hours of fast hardcore gameplay a week and see rewards sooner than go at a much slower calmer pace but get rewards in the long run, because frankly I won't probably play any game everyday for a year, which to me is what I see alot of hardcore MMOs demanding.
Don't you worry little buddy. You're dealing with a man of honor. However, honor requires a higher percentage of profit
If you want to play a really difficult game should you definitely try out WWII Online.
There are no quests, no game generated missions (player posted missions ONLY), no bots or AI to fight against (except for stationary AAA AI around the industrial facilities, and stationary sentries in MG and ATG pits and towers around towns).
The only opponent you have to worry about is other players (WWII Online is a 100% PvP game).
No level up, no magic items, no super weapons, no magic skills. A newbee can kill a 4 years vet. Everyone is as vulnerable as the other.
The closes feature to "level up" is the rank structure. With higher rank will you have access to more infantry classes, vehicles, airplane and ships. To move up in rank in the army is very easy. In the air is it harder, and at sea does it take some time. However if you multi crew with a more experienced player will you reach higher ranks fast both in the air and at the sea.
Army; with the rank of Sergeant (UK), Sergent (FR) and Unteroffizier (DE) can you spawn anything.
Equivivalent ranks for the airforces and navys gives you access to every type in those branches as well.
At Colour Sergeant (UK), Sergent-Chef (FR) and Unterfeldwebel (DE) do you get binocels for the infantry classes.
WWII Online has a persistant world that is 1:2 the real world of western Europe. The area with Choke Points (aka villages, towns and major cities) is 28.000 square kilometers. There are no zones or levels, or limitations what so ever for how you can move. You can run, drive or fly constantly from Köln in east to Dieppe in west unless some one kills you, or you don't have the time for it.
If wanted can you embark as a Paratrooper in western Germany and drop over England. The flight will take you some hours thoug.
You can download the game here for free.
Bytheway, when you log on to the gameserver for the first time, remember that the learning curve is pretty step. Most new players will be killed (black screen) without knowing what killed them. One-shot-kill is normal in WWII Online (as in real life). It happens to everyone all the time. Situation awareness is the only thing that will keep you alive.
That is a pretty good point, Shadowbane is the only MMORPG I have played that has a real risk to dieing, plus it has a real PvP ststem you die (this happens from every death in any way) anyway you die someone can loot your grave. Plus equipment damge & a XP debt. You can also build a city or siege someone else's, I got World of Warcraft, expecting a game like the other Warcraft games, just in MMO form, but someone at Blizzard must of taken the war out. What is with Battlegrounds, you can get any FPS with a multiplayer option & about play the same crap for fee. Play BG or UT2004 for free, I pick UT2004. Blizzard did hire the Evercare um..quest guys though so ofcourse it is World of Evercraft.
Sparre, give us a break with that crap. This isn't a thread to promote your favorite game.
The part about having twitch type gameplay could easily be seen in two different lights, so you are both right. But I do not see how they could successfully have both styles of gameplay
To me it seems the casual gamers want to be able to sit down for an hour and get the rewards that use to require many hours of play. And then, to justify their complaint they say it was just tedium and not difficulty that was removed.
The problem is there are more casual players, which are one in the same with console players you could say, and less of "hardcore" players. SO to make more money it is only logical that they aim to please the casual players first.
Just having to respawn should not be punishment enough. Death should definitly be frustrating, because then you will pay very good attention not to die. I do like the idea of rewarding people who don't die, as well. Unfortunately there would be people who play a whole lot, like me, who wouldn't die at all. So if my xp % kept going up, once again the casual gamer would jump in and complain that it is "not fair." And because there are so many more casual players, that system would not work.
Casual players want the same benefits as hardcore players. If John and Bob have the same job, but John puts in 60 hours a week and Bob puts in 40, even though Bob could put in 60 if he wanted to, does that give Bob the right to complain that John is making more money? NO