LOL! So many of them here just keep incriminating themselves and proving your point true with each consecutive post. Sigh...the MMORPG genre is in shambles.
LOL I know...I think I snickered for about 5 minutes when I read the guy that posted something like:
"Well I wasn't gone read that wall of text (probably not even a page) but in response to the title..."
Originally posted by nerovipus32 MMORPG's should do away with levels and replace them with leveling skills. The more i use my two handed sword the better i am with said two handed sword, the more i use fireballs the more proficient i become with fire magic. This makes you feel like you are in control of your characters destiny.
100% agreed my friend. This is one of the reasons that I really like Darkfall. No levels, all skill based. The more you use skills, the higher they get. Also in Darkfall you don't know what you're about to fight until you actually do it. There is none of that color based difficulty codes anywhere. All the element of exploration and surprise when you first come across new creatures.
Darkfall is far from perfect, but for being developed by such a small development group in Greece, they've made a far better mmo in my opinion then all of the much bigger corporate crap launched here in the past eight years or so. At least they have a real passion for making a gamers game rather then a money making game.. and it shows.
MMORPG's should do away with levels and replace them with leveling skills. The more i use my two handed sword the better i am with said two handed sword, the more i use fireballs the more proficient i become with fire magic. This makes you feel like you are in control of your characters destiny.
Don't get me wrong, I like skill based systems, but they have their problems too.
Oftentimes grinding skills is even less fun than grinding levels. At least with levels you can do anything that give you exp and progress...with skills you have to do EXACTLY what the skill you want to raise does to increase it.
Say you want to charm monsters with music. Well that means you gotta be a good musician first, which means you need to double click on a lute 9999 times...get cracking.
Want to raise your magic resist? Welp, time to start standing in firewalls...you may raise it a point or two after 2 days.
So skill systems can be a little tricky to implement because the devs have to make sure that raising each and every skill is entertaining.
I would prefer a hybrid skill/level system. Where you can do anything to gain "Exp" and then "buy" skill points with the exp you get (with a respec option of course). It will allow you to customize your character, but prevent extremely dull skill leveling.
This is kind of like how Dark Souls and a lot of other similar games work.
Okay, LOL. Let's see if we can CONVERT this ridiculously amusing post...
Many people (meaning ME) do their looking around at the "beauty of the game" in the beta (meaning my beauty is using the beta to figure out the most DPS classes and/or templates and the quickest mob spawns and quests to level off of). The last thing I want to do is have people to group up and have FUN with. I am a selfish gamer. I don't want to share loot or experience in a group. I want to level up and move out of the masses locations so that I never have to stop and have my choice of mobs with the greatest leveling efficiency all to myself.
I don't want to take my time spending a whopping 2 days or 7 days, OMFG, to max out my toon. I want to slice through all content in a SINGLE DAY if possible, no matter how little I enjoy the leveling process. I want to be the mostest "uber-est" person in the game first!
Nothing needs to converted here. Yes, I can understand how having no fun leveling and making the game "work" just to try and hit the level cap first can take a toll on the body. Perhaps you should get a good nights rest EVERY night after a new mmo launches. Perhaps you might actually enjoy your leveling up process more and it won't be so much "work" as you say it is yourself right here. THIS was kind of my whole point in my OP. ;-)
So right there with your own words "during the leveling race" you admit that you really are only in a "race" to level up faster then anyone else. And you mention all the mmo games that you do this in. Hmmm. No wonder you see everyone else but your competitive buddies as rude. How DARE them kill that mob that you had your eye on after you killed the 3 mobs on you at this moment!! -- Psst, maybe if you slowed down and got some sleep at night after a game launchs, you might not be quite so grouchy, huh?
Wow! You nailed it! I am extremely jealous! I want to buy a new game, get no sleep, and make a nice beautiful game nothing but "work" and a "race" like you do so that I can be so "uber"! So I can be a grouch just like you! So I can complain that the game has nothing to do three days after it launches because I've skipped over all the content in that leveling race! What is NOT to be jealous of with all that uber-cool-ness!
If you go back and re-read my OP, and take some time, not try to reach the end of my OP in 3.9 nano-seconds like you're trying to level cap a new mmo, mind you, - You just might see I am merely suggesting that we all should take the time to enjoy our mmo games. I even mentioned that I was talking to myself as much as everyone else.. maybe you missed that part in your "rush to get to the end", I don't know. But if you, kind sir, are enjoying all of your mmo games to the maximum enjoyment level, then by all means, simply skip over my post and thread as it obviously doesn't apply to you. {smile}
- Zaxx
All you are saying is you are better than other people. The reality is your jealous of people that may achieve more than you do. The reality is the players you insult that "rush" to level see far more of the game that you will ever see. They have done it all played it and enjoyed the so called beauty of it in beta. They do the hard worlk testing and debugging the game in beta and on new content post release so you can "enjoy the beauty."
Get off your high horse. I respect your abiility to play the game the way you want or as slowly, swift or as efficiently or inefficiently as you want. Your posts are nothing but an attack on people who play the game differently than you, If you actually spent the time playing the MMO's that you spend writinhg insulting posts about on message boards telling other people how they should their MMOs you might actually enhjoy these games more and not feel the need to go around insulting other people.
In regards to nothing to do 3 days after release. It depends on the game. The norm in MMOs used to be that endgame would release 6 months or more after release (aka DAOC, EQ1) but with super fast leveling games like AoC, Warhammer and Rift there is a much bigger emphasis on having endgame content ready to go at release. This was a failing of AoC which had no real tested content past level 30 while Rift started testing their endgame content in late October or early November, 3.5 months before release. In a game that is supported like Rift I think there is always something to do. In a game like Vanguard which basically put out zero new content (besides APW) for 2+ years (after April 2007) and for years only had 0-1 full time devs I think its right to complain abiout no new content. Generally I think the people that complain about no new content in a supooted game are people either saying they do not like the content or they simply have become bored of MMOs. Many people simply cannot play a game long term. It is frustrating to listen to but people have a right to play or not play the game the way they want.
MMORPG's should do away with levels and replace them with leveling skills. The more i use my two handed sword the better i am with said two handed sword, the more i use fireballs the more proficient i become with fire magic. This makes you feel like you are in control of your characters destiny.
Don't get me wrong, I like skill based systems, but they have their problems too.
Oftentimes grinding skills is even less fun than grinding levels. At least with levels you can do anything that give you exp and progress...with skills you have to do EXACTLY what the skill you want to raise does to increase it.
Say you want to charm monsters with music. Well that means you gotta be a good musician first, which means you need to double click on a lute 9999 times...get cracking.
Want to raise your magic resist? Welp, time to start standing in firewalls...you may raise it a point or two after 2 days.
So skill systems can be a little tricky to implement because the devs have to make sure that raising each and every skill is entertaining.
I would prefer a hybrid skill/level system. Where you can do anything to gain "Exp" and then "buy" skill points with the exp you get (with a respec option of course). It will allow you to customize your character, but prevent extremely dull skill leveling.
This is kind of like how Dark Souls and a lot of other similar games work.
It still gives you control on how to progress your character, if i want to simpley be a woodcutter i'll go out and chop wood, if i want to be a mage i'll practice magic and if i want to be a swordsman i will train myself in that art of sword fighting..just like in the real world the more you practice something the better you become at doing it. I hate games that let a class use swords but for some strange reason they cannot use a mace, that makes no sense at all. Let the player choose what they want to become through their prefered play style.
Originally posted by Zippy All you are saying is you are better than other people. The reality is your jealous of people that may achieve moe than you do. The reality is the players you insult that "rush" to level see far more of the game that you will ever see. They have done it all played it and enjoyed the so called beauty of it in beta. They do the hard worlk testing and debugging the game in beta and on new content post release so you can "enjoy the beauty." Get off your high horse. I respect your abiility to play the game the way you want or as slowly, swift or as efficiently or inefficiently as you want. Your posts are nothing but an attack on people who play the game differently than you, If you actually spent the time playing the MMO's that you spend writinhg insulting posts about on message boards telling other people how they should their MMOs you might actually enhjoy these games more and not feel the need to go around insulting other people.
I do apologize that you take such personal offense to my OP. My saying that I believe we should slow down and take time to enjoy these mmo games was certainly not written with an agenda of insulting anyone or how they play.
Again, I said in my OP that I was speaking to myself as much as anyone else. I tend to catch myself rushing through content that I would likely enjoy more if I only slowed down.
I will refrain from retaliating against your personal attacks of how jealous I am, how I can't possibly see the amount of content you see because I am so slow, etc.
Enjoy your mmo's my friend. Have a good day and get a good night's sleep! {wink}
MMORPG's should do away with levels and replace them with leveling skills. The more i use my two handed sword the better i am with said two handed sword, the more i use fireballs the more proficient i become with fire magic. This makes you feel like you are in control of your characters destiny.
Don't get me wrong, I like skill based systems, but they have their problems too.
Oftentimes grinding skills is even less fun than grinding levels. At least with levels you can do anything that give you exp and progress...with skills you have to do EXACTLY what the skill you want to raise does to increase it.
Say you want to charm monsters with music. Well that means you gotta be a good musician first, which means you need to double click on a lute 9999 times...get cracking.
Want to raise your magic resist? Welp, time to start standing in firewalls...you may raise it a point or two after 2 days.
So skill systems can be a little tricky to implement because the devs have to make sure that raising each and every skill is entertaining.
I would prefer a hybrid skill/level system. Where you can do anything to gain "Exp" and then "buy" skill points with the exp you get (with a respec option of course). It will allow you to customize your character, but prevent extremely dull skill leveling.
This is kind of like how Dark Souls and a lot of other similar games work.
It still gives you control on how to progress your character, if i want to simpley be a woodcutter i'll go out and chop wood, if i want to be a mage i'll practice magic and if i want to be a swordsman i will train myself in that art of sword fighting..just like in the real world the more you practice something the better you become at doing it. I hate games that let a class use swords but for some strange reason they cannot use a mace, that makes no sense at all. Let the player choose what they want to become through their prefered play style.
The biggest problem with any kind of skill-based system is the tank-mage syndrome. A significant number of people will try to become masters of everything, and the result is that specialization disappears. Classes attempt to keep people from trying to be completely independent by restricting skill sets. Even a purchase system like Creslin proposed isn't immune from this. It's human nature. Unless, of course, the game isn't being made for humans, but that's another topic entirely.
Any form of tangible system that place values on a skill is essentially a variation of a level. Sword skill of 3 isn't as good as sword skill 4, so players will still fall under the original poster's observation -- in the rush to get from Sword Skill 3 to Sword Skill 4, the person will miss a lot of the content in the game.
Ultimately, if there is some way for a player to percieve their character as 'better', there will be a lure for people to bypass content. The rush for advancement is pretty much universal in games, no matter how the game defines it.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
From this odd post...it shows me you are in the % of the players mentioned in the OP'ers initial post. You just want instant gratification and to put as little effort in as you can and still get as much as you can for it. So I am curious...IS WoW your first MMO? Because you seem to know little about what MMORPG's are (Or were anyways sadly) about.
Let me explain for you in as short a post as possible. *Er herm!*...
MMORPG's are about the journey NOT the destination. They were MEANT to travel through a vast world, explore, craft, fight, and yes, communicate with other players...as hard is that is for some to grasp. Not be instanced battle arenas with large IM chat rooms. Or be single-player RPG's that just happen to have other players hanging around.
But...I guess majority rules when creativity and innovation are an afterthought, and stuffing as much cash in the developer's bank accounts as possible takes precedence. Why you have dozens and dozens of bland, lifeless cookie-cutter garbage MMO's you have today. They entertain the mindless.
However, if you look at the growing number of posts of people complaining about said mindless MMO's and the numbers of those that agree with them...seems maybe sooner than you think, your kind will be the minority, and fighting a losing battle to have things easier in order to be fun for you. Guess it will be back to console gaming then.
How many players do you know who reach the absolute end of progression? Because only that narrow 0.001% of gamers has stopped journeying.
MMORPGs are about the journey, and all gameplay is journey.
Players want a high quality journey. Engaging in highly interactive systems (like combat/grouping/socalizing in town)? Quality journey! Engaging in non-interactive time-wasting systems (like excessive travel)? Bad journey.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
From this odd post...it shows me you are in the % of the players mentioned in the OP'ers initial post. You just want instant gratification and to put as little effort in as you can and still get as much as you can for it. So I am curious...IS WoW your first MMO? Because you seem to know little about what MMORPG's are (Or were anyways sadly) about.
Let me explain for you in as short a post as possible. *Er herm!*...
MMORPG's are about the journey NOT the destination. They were MEANT to travel through a vast world, explore, craft, fight, and yes, communicate with other players...as hard is that is for some to grasp. Not be instanced battle arenas with large IM chat rooms. Or be single-player RPG's that just happen to have other players hanging around.
But...I guess majority rules when creativity and innovation are an afterthought, and stuffing as much cash in the developer's bank accounts as possible takes precedence. Why you have dozens and dozens of bland, lifeless cookie-cutter garbage MMO's you have today. They entertain the mindless.
However, if you look at the growing number of posts of people complaining about said mindless MMO's and the numbers of those that agree with them...seems maybe sooner than you think, your kind will be the minority, and fighting a losing battle to have things easier in order to be fun for you. Guess it will be back to console gaming then.
How many players do you know who reach the absolute end of progression? Because only that narrow 0.001% of gamers has stopped journeying.
MMORPGs are about the journey, and all gameplay is journey.
Players want a high quality journey. Engaging in highly interactive systems (like combat/grouping/socalizing in town)? Quality journey! Engaging in non-interactive time-wasting systems (like excessive travel)? Bad journey.
In themeparks There is an end-game - the final boss. There is no journey, in fact how can you be on a journey when you are in 'endgame'. 99% of players have finished the journey, they just havent killed the last boss in x man hard mode. In themeparks the average player think's the journey = final raid in game.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Still say it is a case that we have players that want the rush, players that do not want the rush, and that game companies in looking at the market have gone with the majority - thus, we have games which are rush - rush.
While it may look like there are a bunch of folks on the forums that hate the rush - odds are that is easily explained by the fact that the people that enjoy the rush are playing . . . while we're not.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
No it wouldn't just design a MMORPG to be a virtual world again and give people things to do outside of combat, combat and combat.
Also if theres a stinging DP chances are people will thinkk twice about stupid things if you reward grouping and exploration instead of running stupid instances over and over for badges chances are people will look outside their FPS like rush rush mentality. Especially if they fail otherwise!
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play." "Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
How many players do you know who reach the absolute end of progression? Because only that narrow 0.001% of gamers has stopped journeying.
MMORPGs are about the journey, and all gameplay is journey.
Players want a high quality journey. Engaging in highly interactive systems (like combat/grouping/socalizing in town)? Quality journey! Engaging in non-interactive time-wasting systems (like excessive travel)? Bad journey.
In themeparks There is an end-game - the final boss. There is no journey, in fact how can you be on a journey when you are in 'endgame'. 99% of players have finished the journey, they just havent killed the last boss in x man hard mode. In themeparks the average player think's the journey = final raid in game.
How can you be on a journey when you're in endgame? Look at all the raiding players. They raid, they chat it up with guildmates, they run dailies, they run dungeons, they PVP. This is all journey.
The idea that somehow journey stops is something of a misnomer. As long as gameplay continues, it's a journey.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I think a simple answer to this is that we've all seen it before. You remember that awe the first open world 3d MMORPG you played gave you? Well for those on MMO #10 or more we've seen it all before. not much changes in these games, usually you go off to solo repetitive quests until hitting max level (if you don't pvp). My first question about an MMO is "what's the end-game like" because although I enjoy the leveling, i really do - it's the end game that matters. I've spent hundreds of hours on MMOs and I will tell you that the majority of those hours are spent at max level.
For me, it's also about progression. At it's core I am playing a game here, there is an objective. when you first start out the objective is to quest and level. Not to be rude, but if i cared to sit and stare at trees or water - I would download an active waterfall or forest screensaver and drool at my comp screen.
If they start making the leveling process more interesting and engaging, you know - I'd take my time. Some do, like rift... but that was shortlived. Rifts got old and repetitive incredibly fast. Once you peel back the gimmick layer and see the game is a clone of some other game you've played 5 iterations of... it severely hampers that sense of awe. Hey look, questgiver!
The answer to your question can be summed up in a single word. "score"
When it's a game, not a virtual world, and the emphasis of the game is winning, the goal becomes reaching the highest score possible because that is how others will measure performance.
As long as there is "score" there will be people who rush to it.
If winning is not important, then Commander, why keep score? ~ Worf, STNG
I agree. I want to add to this and say, that players rush to endgame, because they want to have access to all contents instead of being roadblocked.
for example, with Rift, the Class tree system is pretty interesting, but to get the full effect of it, you need to be level 50 and have all points available. this is why somebody would rush pass the lower level stuff, so they can get these features.
same thing with the Warfronts. the best and largest scale Warfronts are at max level. this mean, lower levels cant do them, and only way in, is to pass the Level restriction roadblock
From this odd post...it shows me you are in the % of the players mentioned in the OP'ers initial post. You just want instant gratification and to put as little effort in as you can and still get as much as you can for it. So I am curious...IS WoW your first MMO? Because you seem to know little about what MMORPG's are (Or were anyways sadly) about.
Let me explain for you in as short a post as possible. *Er herm!*...
MMORPG's are about the journey NOT the destination. They were MEANT to travel through a vast world, explore, craft, fight, and yes, communicate with other players...as hard is that is for some to grasp. Not be instanced battle arenas with large IM chat rooms. Or be single-player RPG's that just happen to have other players hanging around.
But...I guess majority rules when creativity and innovation are an afterthought, and stuffing as much cash in the developer's bank accounts as possible takes precedence. Why you have dozens and dozens of bland, lifeless cookie-cutter garbage MMO's you have today. They entertain the mindless.
However, if you look at the growing number of posts of people complaining about said mindless MMO's and the numbers of those that agree with them...seems maybe sooner than you think, your kind will be the minority, and fighting a losing battle to have things easier in order to be fun for you. Guess it will be back to console gaming then.
How many players do you know who reach the absolute end of progression? Because only that narrow 0.001% of gamers has stopped journeying.
MMORPGs are about the journey, and all gameplay is journey.
Players want a high quality journey. Engaging in highly interactive systems (like combat/grouping/socalizing in town)? Quality journey! Engaging in non-interactive time-wasting systems (like excessive travel)? Bad journey.
Yet again...just show everyone how much you want to rush to an ending and raid. Obvious end-game lover.
And yet again, if companies stop making it all SO EASY to blow through, and add more content, as EQ did over the years...hence 17 expansions and STILL alive after 13 years, you'd see what a true journey is. Where there is quality content throughout the game, and not just at the beginning when it's new to you, and the "ending".
I remember in AoC literally a few days after launch the top 20 or so guilds were all competing to see who reached 80 first (many of these people were later banned for exploiting particular mobs for massive XP), then it was who could finish the first raid instance first & so it goes.
Even within our own guild the highest 4 levels were all competing to see who could hit 80 first. Once they hit cap most (who werent banned for exploiting) actually left the game lol due to so little endgame content.
I don't think the gamers are to blame when the focus of MMORPG's tend to be end games lately. I like the trend of more focus on the leveling lately (eg WoW Cata) which minimizes the need to level to cap ASAP.
My best memories in all the MMORPG's I have played took place leveling.
Yet again...just show everyone how much you want to rush to an ending and raid. Obvious end-game lover.
And yet again, if companies stop making it all SO EASY to blow through, and add more content, as EQ did over the years...hence 17 expansions and STILL alive after 13 years, you'd see what a true journey is. Where there is quality content throughout the game, and not just at the beginnign when it's new to you, and the "ending".
Yes, I enjoy the journey towards ending. Gameplay is journey is fun. Whether that journey is considered a "rush" or not depends on the eye of the beholder.
If you think EQ1 will have lasted longer than WOW will last, I think you'll eventually discover you were completely wrong about that. WOW will certainly have its downturns (as EQ1 did) but it'll last considerably longer -- and clearly be wildly more successful -- than EQ1 has.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
1) Biggest reason here. Dev's allow it. They pretty much want the major % of the player base to level quickly. It's an excuse to turn out more content (expansion) which equals money.
2) I never really care about early/starting gear. Why? I'm going to out level it so quickly it dosent matter. I never understood why with things such as crafting they put things in there that would require you to spend more time investing in mats than it would to just level and not worry about it. I mean, honestly, what person is going to put serious work into crafting an item/gear which will be obsolete in a few (short) levels.
3) As someone said, many people want to see the dungeons/enemies etc. Its not so much rushing as it is being curious to see what's around the corner.
A long time ago I asked a guy who was lvl 60 (max level at the time) in EQ about something in relation to quest gear. His reply to me was "life begins at 60." I didn't understand until I started raiding and I got hooked.
For some people it's the journey to the endgame. For others it's socializing. Still, for others, it's all about raiding. To each their own. Honestly if it took you longer to level (say about what original EQ had going) people would enjoy themselves more I think. But that has it's drawbacks as well.
The same reason there would always be kids shoveling the quarters into a Space Invaders machine.
"Look, I'm on the high score board!"
I never had the heart to tell them that it reset every time the power blinked.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I believe it happens because, you no longer play with each other, but compete with each other.
Either pvp to gain ranks and rewards before anyone else and gain an edge, endgame raiding to show off phat l00t before everyone else got it, to manufacture and place your items on the AH before the market is saturated and make a profit. To outrun the mass of players to prevent the 12 players on 1 mob.
So many reasons these days. Pick any... To lvl slow and enjoy the game puts you at a disadvantage.
It seems like a game design issue. ( WOW and it's ME ME ME mentality comes to mind. Personal progression over everything else in a competition with everyone else.)
So many reasons these days. Pick any... To lvl slow and enjoy the game puts you at a disadvantage.
It seems like a game design issue. ( WOW and it's ME ME ME mentality comes to mind. Personal progression over everything else in a competition with everyone else.)
leveling slow does not put you at a disadvantage (except for pvp)
theres always other players who are slower or new players who have not even started playing the game yet
the only time I saw the "go go go" mentality in WOW, was in the dungeon finder groups
So many reasons these days. Pick any... To lvl slow and enjoy the game puts you at a disadvantage.
It seems like a game design issue. ( WOW and it's ME ME ME mentality comes to mind. Personal progression over everything else in a competition with everyone else.)
leveling slow does not put you at a disadvantage (except for pvp)
theres always other players who are slower or new players who have not even started playing the game yet
the only time I saw the "go go go" mentality in WOW, was in the dungeon finder groups
That's is one of main reasons I loathe dungeon finders. It makes community focus on running instances and developer to focus game on instances even more. It also increase grind.
Few random ppl appear in dungeon and it is "go go go, faster you noob!" because they have to get 50 more medallions for their "epic" gloves. Yuck!
Seriously I think mmorpg genre have to split more into subgenres as I don't see a space to compromise between some mechanics / tools that are possible to implement in some games.
Hopefully finally WoW slowly tanking will allow that.
Comments
LOL I know...I think I snickered for about 5 minutes when I read the guy that posted something like:
"Well I wasn't gone read that wall of text (probably not even a page) but in response to the title..."
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
100% agreed my friend. This is one of the reasons that I really like Darkfall. No levels, all skill based. The more you use skills, the higher they get. Also in Darkfall you don't know what you're about to fight until you actually do it. There is none of that color based difficulty codes anywhere. All the element of exploration and surprise when you first come across new creatures.
Darkfall is far from perfect, but for being developed by such a small development group in Greece, they've made a far better mmo in my opinion then all of the much bigger corporate crap launched here in the past eight years or so. At least they have a real passion for making a gamers game rather then a money making game.. and it shows.
- Zaxx
Don't get me wrong, I like skill based systems, but they have their problems too.
Oftentimes grinding skills is even less fun than grinding levels. At least with levels you can do anything that give you exp and progress...with skills you have to do EXACTLY what the skill you want to raise does to increase it.
Say you want to charm monsters with music. Well that means you gotta be a good musician first, which means you need to double click on a lute 9999 times...get cracking.
Want to raise your magic resist? Welp, time to start standing in firewalls...you may raise it a point or two after 2 days.
So skill systems can be a little tricky to implement because the devs have to make sure that raising each and every skill is entertaining.
I would prefer a hybrid skill/level system. Where you can do anything to gain "Exp" and then "buy" skill points with the exp you get (with a respec option of course). It will allow you to customize your character, but prevent extremely dull skill leveling.
This is kind of like how Dark Souls and a lot of other similar games work.
Are you team Azeroth, team Tyria, or team Jacob?
All you are saying is you are better than other people. The reality is your jealous of people that may achieve more than you do. The reality is the players you insult that "rush" to level see far more of the game that you will ever see. They have done it all played it and enjoyed the so called beauty of it in beta. They do the hard worlk testing and debugging the game in beta and on new content post release so you can "enjoy the beauty."
Get off your high horse. I respect your abiility to play the game the way you want or as slowly, swift or as efficiently or inefficiently as you want. Your posts are nothing but an attack on people who play the game differently than you, If you actually spent the time playing the MMO's that you spend writinhg insulting posts about on message boards telling other people how they should their MMOs you might actually enhjoy these games more and not feel the need to go around insulting other people.
In regards to nothing to do 3 days after release. It depends on the game. The norm in MMOs used to be that endgame would release 6 months or more after release (aka DAOC, EQ1) but with super fast leveling games like AoC, Warhammer and Rift there is a much bigger emphasis on having endgame content ready to go at release. This was a failing of AoC which had no real tested content past level 30 while Rift started testing their endgame content in late October or early November, 3.5 months before release. In a game that is supported like Rift I think there is always something to do. In a game like Vanguard which basically put out zero new content (besides APW) for 2+ years (after April 2007) and for years only had 0-1 full time devs I think its right to complain abiout no new content. Generally I think the people that complain about no new content in a supooted game are people either saying they do not like the content or they simply have become bored of MMOs. Many people simply cannot play a game long term. It is frustrating to listen to but people have a right to play or not play the game the way they want.
It still gives you control on how to progress your character, if i want to simpley be a woodcutter i'll go out and chop wood, if i want to be a mage i'll practice magic and if i want to be a swordsman i will train myself in that art of sword fighting..just like in the real world the more you practice something the better you become at doing it. I hate games that let a class use swords but for some strange reason they cannot use a mace, that makes no sense at all. Let the player choose what they want to become through their prefered play style.
I do apologize that you take such personal offense to my OP. My saying that I believe we should slow down and take time to enjoy these mmo games was certainly not written with an agenda of insulting anyone or how they play.
Again, I said in my OP that I was speaking to myself as much as anyone else. I tend to catch myself rushing through content that I would likely enjoy more if I only slowed down.
I will refrain from retaliating against your personal attacks of how jealous I am, how I can't possibly see the amount of content you see because I am so slow, etc.
Enjoy your mmo's my friend. Have a good day and get a good night's sleep! {wink}
- Zaxx
The biggest problem with any kind of skill-based system is the tank-mage syndrome. A significant number of people will try to become masters of everything, and the result is that specialization disappears. Classes attempt to keep people from trying to be completely independent by restricting skill sets. Even a purchase system like Creslin proposed isn't immune from this. It's human nature. Unless, of course, the game isn't being made for humans, but that's another topic entirely.
Any form of tangible system that place values on a skill is essentially a variation of a level. Sword skill of 3 isn't as good as sword skill 4, so players will still fall under the original poster's observation -- in the rush to get from Sword Skill 3 to Sword Skill 4, the person will miss a lot of the content in the game.
Ultimately, if there is some way for a player to percieve their character as 'better', there will be a lure for people to bypass content. The rush for advancement is pretty much universal in games, no matter how the game defines it.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
How many players do you know who reach the absolute end of progression? Because only that narrow 0.001% of gamers has stopped journeying.
MMORPGs are about the journey, and all gameplay is journey.
Players want a high quality journey. Engaging in highly interactive systems (like combat/grouping/socalizing in town)? Quality journey! Engaging in non-interactive time-wasting systems (like excessive travel)? Bad journey.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
In today's market...
Consumer: GIMME! I want it all nao!
Developer: Okay, here you go.
Consumer: WTF!? I just paid $60, and another sub fee and I already "beat" the game in a month?
In themeparks There is an end-game - the final boss. There is no journey, in fact how can you be on a journey when you are in 'endgame'. 99% of players have finished the journey, they just havent killed the last boss in x man hard mode. In themeparks the average player think's the journey = final raid in game.
rpg/mmorg history: Dun Darach>Bloodwych>Bards Tale 1-3>Eye of the beholder > Might and Magic 2,3,5 > FFVII> Baldur's Gate 1, 2 > Planescape Torment >Morrowind > WOW > oblivion > LOTR > Guild Wars (1900hrs elementalist) Vanguard. > GW2(1000 elementalist), Wildstar
Now playing GW2, AOW 3, ESO, LOTR, Elite D
Direct Hit.
Still say it is a case that we have players that want the rush, players that do not want the rush, and that game companies in looking at the market have gone with the majority - thus, we have games which are rush - rush.
While it may look like there are a bunch of folks on the forums that hate the rush - odds are that is easily explained by the fact that the people that enjoy the rush are playing . . . while we're not.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
No it wouldn't just design a MMORPG to be a virtual world again and give people things to do outside of combat, combat and combat.
Also if theres a stinging DP chances are people will thinkk twice about stupid things if you reward grouping and exploration instead of running stupid instances over and over for badges chances are people will look outside their FPS like rush rush mentality. Especially if they fail otherwise!
We need a MMORPG Cataclysm asap, finish the dark age of MMORPGS now!
"Everything you're bitching about is wrong. People don't have the time to invest in corpse runs, impossible zones, or long winded quests. Sometimes, they just want to pop on and play."
"Then maybe MMORPGs aren't for you."
How can you be on a journey when you're in endgame? Look at all the raiding players. They raid, they chat it up with guildmates, they run dailies, they run dungeons, they PVP. This is all journey.
The idea that somehow journey stops is something of a misnomer. As long as gameplay continues, it's a journey.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I think a simple answer to this is that we've all seen it before. You remember that awe the first open world 3d MMORPG you played gave you? Well for those on MMO #10 or more we've seen it all before. not much changes in these games, usually you go off to solo repetitive quests until hitting max level (if you don't pvp). My first question about an MMO is "what's the end-game like" because although I enjoy the leveling, i really do - it's the end game that matters. I've spent hundreds of hours on MMOs and I will tell you that the majority of those hours are spent at max level.
For me, it's also about progression. At it's core I am playing a game here, there is an objective. when you first start out the objective is to quest and level. Not to be rude, but if i cared to sit and stare at trees or water - I would download an active waterfall or forest screensaver and drool at my comp screen.
If they start making the leveling process more interesting and engaging, you know - I'd take my time. Some do, like rift... but that was shortlived. Rifts got old and repetitive incredibly fast. Once you peel back the gimmick layer and see the game is a clone of some other game you've played 5 iterations of... it severely hampers that sense of awe. Hey look, questgiver!
I agree. I want to add to this and say, that players rush to endgame, because they want to have access to all contents instead of being roadblocked.
for example, with Rift, the Class tree system is pretty interesting, but to get the full effect of it, you need to be level 50 and have all points available. this is why somebody would rush pass the lower level stuff, so they can get these features.
same thing with the Warfronts. the best and largest scale Warfronts are at max level. this mean, lower levels cant do them, and only way in, is to pass the Level restriction roadblock
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Yet again...just show everyone how much you want to rush to an ending and raid. Obvious end-game lover.
And yet again, if companies stop making it all SO EASY to blow through, and add more content, as EQ did over the years...hence 17 expansions and STILL alive after 13 years, you'd see what a true journey is. Where there is quality content throughout the game, and not just at the beginning when it's new to you, and the "ending".
I dont understand the rush to cap myself.
I remember in AoC literally a few days after launch the top 20 or so guilds were all competing to see who reached 80 first (many of these people were later banned for exploiting particular mobs for massive XP), then it was who could finish the first raid instance first & so it goes.
Even within our own guild the highest 4 levels were all competing to see who could hit 80 first. Once they hit cap most (who werent banned for exploiting) actually left the game lol due to so little endgame content.
I don't think the gamers are to blame when the focus of MMORPG's tend to be end games lately. I like the trend of more focus on the leveling lately (eg WoW Cata) which minimizes the need to level to cap ASAP.
My best memories in all the MMORPG's I have played took place leveling.
Yes, I enjoy the journey towards ending. Gameplay is journey is fun. Whether that journey is considered a "rush" or not depends on the eye of the beholder.
If you think EQ1 will have lasted longer than WOW will last, I think you'll eventually discover you were completely wrong about that. WOW will certainly have its downturns (as EQ1 did) but it'll last considerably longer -- and clearly be wildly more successful -- than EQ1 has.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
There more than a few reasons why.
1) Biggest reason here. Dev's allow it. They pretty much want the major % of the player base to level quickly. It's an excuse to turn out more content (expansion) which equals money.
2) I never really care about early/starting gear. Why? I'm going to out level it so quickly it dosent matter. I never understood why with things such as crafting they put things in there that would require you to spend more time investing in mats than it would to just level and not worry about it. I mean, honestly, what person is going to put serious work into crafting an item/gear which will be obsolete in a few (short) levels.
3) As someone said, many people want to see the dungeons/enemies etc. Its not so much rushing as it is being curious to see what's around the corner.
A long time ago I asked a guy who was lvl 60 (max level at the time) in EQ about something in relation to quest gear. His reply to me was "life begins at 60." I didn't understand until I started raiding and I got hooked.
For some people it's the journey to the endgame. For others it's socializing. Still, for others, it's all about raiding. To each their own. Honestly if it took you longer to level (say about what original EQ had going) people would enjoy themselves more I think. But that has it's drawbacks as well.
The same reason there would always be kids shoveling the quarters into a Space Invaders machine.
"Look, I'm on the high score board!"
I never had the heart to tell them that it reset every time the power blinked.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
I believe it happens because, you no longer play with each other, but compete with each other.
Either pvp to gain ranks and rewards before anyone else and gain an edge, endgame raiding to show off phat l00t before everyone else got it, to manufacture and place your items on the AH before the market is saturated and make a profit. To outrun the mass of players to prevent the 12 players on 1 mob.
So many reasons these days. Pick any... To lvl slow and enjoy the game puts you at a disadvantage.
It seems like a game design issue. ( WOW and it's ME ME ME mentality comes to mind. Personal progression over everything else in a competition with everyone else.)
leveling slow does not put you at a disadvantage (except for pvp)
theres always other players who are slower or new players who have not even started playing the game yet
the only time I saw the "go go go" mentality in WOW, was in the dungeon finder groups
EQ2 fan sites
That's is one of main reasons I loathe dungeon finders. It makes community focus on running instances and developer to focus game on instances even more. It also increase grind.
Few random ppl appear in dungeon and it is "go go go, faster you noob!" because they have to get 50 more medallions for their "epic" gloves. Yuck!
Seriously I think mmorpg genre have to split more into subgenres as I don't see a space to compromise between some mechanics / tools that are possible to implement in some games.
Hopefully finally WoW slowly tanking will allow that.