I dont understand the point of this article.. THESE ARE VIDEO GAMES NOT REAL LIFE. Why on earth would i want to play a game that mirrors real life?
Who is asking for a real life sim?
People are talking about being able to become immersed in the game world - a form of escapism from the real world.
They are talking about those issues in the fantasy world that break that immersion.
Who was asking for a real life sim?
How do any of the top 5 break the immersion in the fantasy world? it is a fantasy world....
"after all, but to see players running in 500 pounds of armor and weaponry without any threat of fatigue setting in is stretching it a bit."
What does he mean by this? Is he comparing this to a real world scenario as no one could possible do it in real life? This is what i mean by comparing a fantasy world to something "non-realistic". Its the whole point of the game.
That second half didn't help your case thus it was discarded. Immersion is already a state, no such thing as "such a state", you're just making things up.
You immerse yourself into a world where everything is fantastic NOT realistic. The problem I have with games is when more and more realistic stuff are getting into the fantastic world.
Fantastically huge weapons, impenetrable bikini armor, 1-ton tower shield, etc all are good for immersion because you no longer in real world, you are in a fantasy world.
But it seems that is difficult for you to grasp so let me put it this way--the reality in the game world allows you to have exagerrated gears, so why are you going against that reality and not simply accept it?
Yup immersion is already a state. Such a state where you pretend something is real.
You forget that all the fantastic has a basis in reality, and that basis is what allows us to immerse ourselves.
Huge weapons have a basis in reality, normal weapons. Bikini armor has a basis in reality, normal bikinis. etc.
It's not the fantastical aspect that allows immersion, it's the realistical aspect. You can't immerse yourself in something that holds no realistical aspect. You can roleplay a modern soldier. Because he actually exists in reality. You can roleplay an orc, a brutish green-skinned humanoid. Because he's got a basis in reality. You can't roleplay a liquid birthday with the colour of amnesia. Because that has no basis in reality whatsoever.
Something requires a realistical aspect for anyone to immerse themselves in it. Without any basis in reality you can't connect to it and you can't immerse yourself in it.
The more realism the easier it is to immerse yourself in something. Whether or not you personally find it fun to immerse yourself in things very close to reality is another matter entirely.
But it's downright ridiculous to say that the more fantastical, improbable and impossible something is the better it is for immersion. Without a basis in reality there is no immersion.
That's exactly the reason why the recent games lacks creativity. They're so rooted into reality that it became difficult for them to create a game that is fantastic.
If everything has a bearing to reality, then what realistic bearing does a Beholder has? Or let's make it simple, super power that makes you fly? Or anything that defies logic and physics for that matter?
You see, in a fantasy world, real world logic and physics need not to exist.
Sure you can "pretend" all you want, but pretending is not immersing. When you immerse yourself in water, you're not simply pretending to be in water, you are in water.
Your idea of immersion is like having one foot outside the door, which is rooted to what you call reality.
I dont understand the point of this article.. THESE ARE VIDEO GAMES NOT REAL LIFE. Why on earth would i want to play a game that mirrors real life?
Who is asking for a real life sim?
People are talking about being able to become immersed in the game world - a form of escapism from the real world.
They are talking about those issues in the fantasy world that break that immersion.
Who was asking for a real life sim?
How do any of the top 5 break the immersion in the fantasy world? it is a fantasy world....
A fantasy world is still premised on a real world. You take a real world and you add fantasy elements. You add superscience, you add magic, you change how something works, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc.
How do they break immersion? They create the question of WHY?
Why am I running everywhere? If you ask that, you've broken immersion. The NPCs are not all running around. I am. They're not. Why am I? In a superhero game where there is super speed - you're not going to ask why you're running faster than a car. It does not break immersion. Running everywhere in your standard game though - does for many people.
The same goes for mounts indoors. It stands out. It calls attention to itself. Some people ask WHY? The same for all of them . . . if you're asking WHY? about something - the immersion has been broken.
The #1 option caused the most problem it appears based on the replies. I think #1 is situational. In some games, oversized weapons are not going to call attention to themselves (kind of like I said about the super speed). In some games, they will.
One of the most common abilities brought up in discussing additional realism in games - is - fireballs. How on Earth can anybody talk about realism or immersion in games when there are fireballs? Fireballs fit that particular game. They do not break immersion in a game with magic - where people toss fireballs at each other. Imagine throwing fireballs in MW3 though. WTF? See . . . it breaks immersion. Some things are situational. The things that might break immersion for one player are not going to break them for all.
Depending on what else is going on, you may subconsciously suspend your disbelief more - letting things slide, because you're having fun - are distracted by what else is going on. At other times, things will simply stand out entirely too much... and you just "ugh" when you see them and they pull you out of the game.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
There was an old Ultima feature that I heard about.... the animals of the world acted like real animals.... there wasn't any respawning.... the animals gave birth to other animals and if you killed too many of one in an area, its predator would move to new areas in search of a new food source....
As I heard it, the feature didn't really work all to well because players simply killed all of the creatures they found, leaving no creatures to repopulate.... So they had to change it to a respawning method....
I think a game should find a good balance between the two.... have animals grow naturally in an area but allow for respawning in order to keep a certain species from completely dying out. Also, allow for animal travel across the worlds.... For instance, in WoW, the creatures stay to their specific territory, never leaving.... while I would have set territory for creatures, I would allow those creatures to move freely throughout the world as the computer saw fit....
There was an old Ultima feature that I heard about.... the animals of the world acted like real animals.... there wasn't any respawning.... the animals gave birth to other animals and if you killed too many of one in an area, its predator would move to new areas in search of a new food source....
As I heard it, the feature didn't really work all to well because players simply killed all of the creatures they found, leaving no creatures to repopulate.... So they had to change it to a respawning method....
I think a game should find a good balance between the two.... have animals grow naturally in an area but allow for respawning in order to keep a certain species from completely dying out. Also, allow for animal travel across the worlds.... For instance, in WoW, the creatures stay to their specific territory, never leaving.... while I would have set territory for creatures, I would allow those creatures to move freely throughout the world as the computer saw fit....
There are a few discussions on that Artifical Life Engine - but yep, instead of it being an either or - some compromise would be nifty.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
"One of the worst examples of this horrible trend was in the original Guild Wars. Think Mesmers here. I mean come on. My poor Mesmer had to run around in leather and lace with a party mask on."
THAT'S your worst example? Did it not give you some indication of the profession's background when you met Lady Althea, the Mesmer trainer, at the theater in Lakeside County? And at that theater is a status of Lyssa, patron goddess of Mesmers. One might deduce from that, that Mesmers tend towards nobility and the arts. One might further deduce that they would also tend towards enjoying the finer things in life. Would you really expect a profession like that to wander around in sackcloth and iron plating? And the masks they wear -- perhaps symbolizing the masks of comedy and tragedy which are universally associated with the theater? Think about it.
Furthermore, it's entirely possible that Lady Althea's name was inspired by the poem To Althea, From Prison, written by one Richard LOVELACE. Love lace. Any good Mesmer would.
So are you sure there aren't worse examples out there?
That second half didn't help your case thus it was discarded. Immersion is already a state, no such thing as "such a state", you're just making things up.
You immerse yourself into a world where everything is fantastic NOT realistic. The problem I have with games is when more and more realistic stuff are getting into the fantastic world.
Fantastically huge weapons, impenetrable bikini armor, 1-ton tower shield, etc all are good for immersion because you no longer in real world, you are in a fantasy world.
But it seems that is difficult for you to grasp so let me put it this way--the reality in the game world allows you to have exagerrated gears, so why are you going against that reality and not simply accept it?
Yup immersion is already a state. Such a state where you pretend something is real.
You forget that all the fantastic has a basis in reality, and that basis is what allows us to immerse ourselves.
Huge weapons have a basis in reality, normal weapons. Bikini armor has a basis in reality, normal bikinis. etc.
It's not the fantastical aspect that allows immersion, it's the realistical aspect. You can't immerse yourself in something that holds no realistical aspect. You can roleplay a modern soldier. Because he actually exists in reality. You can roleplay an orc, a brutish green-skinned humanoid. Because he's got a basis in reality. You can't roleplay a liquid birthday with the colour of amnesia. Because that has no basis in reality whatsoever.
Something requires a realistical aspect for anyone to immerse themselves in it. Without any basis in reality you can't connect to it and you can't immerse yourself in it.
The more realism the easier it is to immerse yourself in something. Whether or not you personally find it fun to immerse yourself in things very close to reality is another matter entirely.
But it's downright ridiculous to say that the more fantastical, improbable and impossible something is the better it is for immersion. Without a basis in reality there is no immersion.
That's exactly the reason why the recent games lacks creativity. They're so rooted into reality that it became difficult for them to create a game that is fantastic.
If everything has a bearing to reality, then what realistic bearing does a Beholder has? Or let's make it simple, super power that makes you fly? Or anything that defies logic and physics for that matter?
You see, in a fantasy world, real world logic and physics need not to exist.
Sure you can "pretend" all you want, but pretending is not immersing. When you immerse yourself in water, you're not simply pretending to be in water, you are in water.
Your idea of immersion is like having one foot outside the door, which is rooted to what you call reality.
A beholder has eyes, like those you have in reality. Those eyes work exactly the same as you'd expect eyes to work. They're not some fantastical construct, they're real eyes.
A beholder has a mouth, like you have in reality. It works exactly as you'd expect a mouth to work. It's also got teeth which also work exactly as you'd expect teeth to work.
Sure, they've added a few twists like shooting beams of fire (which also have a basis in reality) from the eyes but everything has a root in reality.
Flying certainly has a basis in reality. Just look outside your window. Lots of birds flying. Lots of planes flying. Simply apply that completely realistical concept to another completely realistical concept, a person, and you've got a flying person. Again, both are rooted in reality.
In a fantasy world most real world logic and physics do exist. How many MMOs do not have gravity? How many MMOs do not have trees? How many MMOs do not have suns? How many MMOs do not have causality (how do you even build an MMO without causality)? How many MMOs have fire that doesn't burn? How many MMOs have ice that doesn't freeze?
It's all rooted in reality. You can't escape reality. It's the only thing our brains are able to process. If it isn't rooted in reality we're not able to process it. Just try picturing what an orange scream bouncing on top of an electrocuted dream looks like, you can't because it's got no basis in reality. There's no frame of reference. You need a frame of reference.
If it isn't rooted in reality you can't imagine it. If you can't imagine it you can't immerse yourself in it.
ps. Immersion as relating to water has absolutely nothing to do with immersion as relating to fantasy worlds. Just like right as relating to left has nothing to do with right as relating to wrong. It's a homonym.
We are the bunny. Resistance is futile. ''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\ ( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o) (")("),,(")("),(")(")
For me my imerse killer is when I get that feeling that the devs didn't make a world but made quests and then created a world around that. It just feels wrong to me when the world ist just big enough for the quests. There is nothing to explore. Outpost and towns are just there to give quest givers a spot to stand. etc...
I will not play a game with a cash shop ever again. A dev job should be to make the game better not make me pay so it sucks less.
1.) NPC Guards that are all but useless in defending citizens/players of their realm.
2.) Lack of consequences to extremely anti-social behavior that would normally have the inter-galactic/medieval police swat team deployed against a player acting out in a populated area.
3.) Linear Progression
4.) Fauna and Flora that appear to have no discernible function other then to be meat and loot factories for players. Saga of Ryzom has a wonderful set of scripted interactions with their Fauna that makes you almost believe they are truly alive. That is some animals are herd or pack animals while others are loners, most hunt for food be it by grazing or actively seeking prey/players to eat be it alone or in a group.
5.) Repetitive and uninspiring tasks to accomplish basic game-play goals.
Games I've played/tried out:WAR, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, AoC, EQ1, EQ2, WoW, Vangaurd, FFXI, D&DO, Lineage 2, Saga Of Ryzom, EvE Online, DAoC, Guild Wars,Star Wars Galaxies, Hell Gate London, Auto Assault, Grando Espada ( AKA SoTNW ), Archlord, CoV/H, Star Trek Online, APB, Champions Online, FFXIV, Rift Online, GW2.
Gotta say, none of the OP's top 5 would even crack my top 40. Quick responses to those first:
5) Running. While running (and to an even greater extent, overuse of jumping) may stand out as downright silly to a new MMO spectator, I have long since become desensitized to these necessary actions. If these features were absent, it would greatly affect my immersion!
4) Mounts indoors. I'm not sure I've played an MMO where riding was allowed indoors, but I don't think I would object to it. It has occurred in reality after all. Although I suppose it can be argued that reality isn't all that immersive...
3) Children. I agree there need to be more kids in games. I also believe you should be able to make child avatars. Maybe it's the Final Fantasy child hero in me. However, the lack of something cannot ruin my immersion.
2) "Distracting" armor. Sure, if someone decides to bust out their snuggie on the battlefield, it breaks my immersion. I'm reminded that I'm playing a game, and that there's a person somewhere else in the world controlling that character that's making a scene. But I'm also a huge fan games providing me with the ability to put together the most outlandish ensemble I can conceive. Like running, it's an instance I gladly trade realism for fun. As far as sexy armor goes, I'm indifferent toward its existence, but it definitely does not break my immersion.
1) Oversized weapons. I won't be satisfied until I can wield Sephiroth's Masamune from Kingdom Hearts.
5) Accessible teleportation/ super fast transportation made available at early levels. Few things are more important to my immersion than experiencing the vastness and massiveness of the MMO world through traditional exploration. If the game does not make me find my way on foot first, I lose all perspective on the world's size and where everything is in relation to everything else. This includes instant porting to dungeons via dungeon finders. Make me learn the geography of the world first, then give me faster transportation. Teleportation should always be used sparingly, and requires proper justification within the game's lore.
4) Ignorant global chat conversation. I could be in the middle of the most intense gaming experience of my life, but if I hear the September 11 attacks were planned by the U.S. government or how how Hitler was an atheist so atheists are all genocidal maniacs or how Hitler was a Christian so all Christians are genocidal maniacs, my experience is shattered...and I won't be able to get it up for the rest of the night. Let's be honest though, there's amost no way chat channels cannot break immersion; that is, remind you you're a person staring at a computer monitor.
3) Dominating UI/Quest Helper. If my UI covers more than 20% of my screen, it's preventing me from experiencing the game. I find myself swiping at my monitor, trying to push the curtains aside so I can see the world. Likewise, I don't want to spend more time paying attention to the color-coded quest locations on my mini map than I to the actual world around me.
2) Cash shops + advertisements. Completely pausing your game to browse a RMT shop = the definition of immersion broken.
1) Invisible walls, no jumping, untraversable terrain. If I cannot physically interact with the virtual world, I get frustrated and start thinking about the game's engine and the developer's decisions. Nothing frustrates me more today (since there have been plenty of games already that have successfully provided complete terrain traversability) than seeing a stream that I can't jump over or walk through, or a slight slope that I just bump into as if into a brick wall, or mountains that cannot be scaled in any way. By necessity, jumping is included in this category.
That second half didn't help your case thus it was discarded. Immersion is already a state, no such thing as "such a state", you're just making things up.
You immerse yourself into a world where everything is fantastic NOT realistic. The problem I have with games is when more and more realistic stuff are getting into the fantastic world.
Fantastically huge weapons, impenetrable bikini armor, 1-ton tower shield, etc all are good for immersion because you no longer in real world, you are in a fantasy world.
But it seems that is difficult for you to grasp so let me put it this way--the reality in the game world allows you to have exagerrated gears, so why are you going against that reality and not simply accept it?
Yup immersion is already a state. Such a state where you pretend something is real.
You forget that all the fantastic has a basis in reality, and that basis is what allows us to immerse ourselves.
Huge weapons have a basis in reality, normal weapons. Bikini armor has a basis in reality, normal bikinis. etc.
It's not the fantastical aspect that allows immersion, it's the realistical aspect. You can't immerse yourself in something that holds no realistical aspect. You can roleplay a modern soldier. Because he actually exists in reality. You can roleplay an orc, a brutish green-skinned humanoid. Because he's got a basis in reality. You can't roleplay a liquid birthday with the colour of amnesia. Because that has no basis in reality whatsoever.
Something requires a realistical aspect for anyone to immerse themselves in it. Without any basis in reality you can't connect to it and you can't immerse yourself in it.
The more realism the easier it is to immerse yourself in something. Whether or not you personally find it fun to immerse yourself in things very close to reality is another matter entirely.
But it's downright ridiculous to say that the more fantastical, improbable and impossible something is the better it is for immersion. Without a basis in reality there is no immersion.
That's exactly the reason why the recent games lacks creativity. They're so rooted into reality that it became difficult for them to create a game that is fantastic.
If everything has a bearing to reality, then what realistic bearing does a Beholder has? Or let's make it simple, super power that makes you fly? Or anything that defies logic and physics for that matter?
You see, in a fantasy world, real world logic and physics need not to exist.
Sure you can "pretend" all you want, but pretending is not immersing. When you immerse yourself in water, you're not simply pretending to be in water, you are in water.
Your idea of immersion is like having one foot outside the door, which is rooted to what you call reality.
A beholder has eyes, like those you have in reality. Those eyes work exactly the same as you'd expect eyes to work. They're not some fantastical construct, they're real eyes.
A beholder has a mouth, like you have in reality. It works exactly as you'd expect a mouth to work. It's also got teeth which also work exactly as you'd expect teeth to work.
Sure, they've added a few twists like shooting beams of fire (which also have a basis in reality) from the eyes but everything has a root in reality.
Flying certainly has a basis in reality. Just look outside your window. Lots of birds flying. Lots of planes flying. Simply apply that completely realistical concept to another completely realistical concept, a person, and you've got a flying person. Again, both are rooted in reality.
In a fantasy world most real world logic and physics do exist. How many MMOs do not have gravity? How many MMOs do not have trees? How many MMOs do not have suns? How many MMOs do not have causality (how do you even build an MMO without causality)? How many MMOs have fire that doesn't burn? How many MMOs have ice that doesn't freeze?
It's all rooted in reality. You can't escape reality. It's the only thing our brains are able to process. If it isn't rooted in reality we're not able to process it. Just try picturing what an orange scream bouncing on top of an electrocuted dream looks like, you can't because it's got no basis in reality. There's no frame of reference. You need a frame of reference.
If it isn't rooted in reality you can't imagine it. If you can't imagine it you can't immerse yourself in it.
ps. Immersion as relating to water has absolutely nothing to do with immersion as relating to fantasy worlds. Just like right as relating to left has nothing to do with right as relating to wrong. It's a homonym.
lol, an eye that shoots laser. Man flying like birds without wings. All based on reality? That's why I said, games these days are lacking creativity. Thanks for proving that.
"Just try picturing what an orange scream bouncing on top of an electrocuted dream looks like, you can't because it's got no basis in reality."
Of course I can, because I have a creative mind. The problem with your description of something abstract is you are using words that describe something that is physical like "orange" (either color or fruit, still physical), "bouncing", "on top of", etc. And no, you don't need a frame of reference. To fully immerse yourself, you need to be willing to throw away those "rules", it is hindering yourself from full immersion.
"Picturing" requires imagination and imagination doesn't need to be rooted to reality. As I've said, you have one foot outside the door that prevents you from fully immersing yourself.
You're a realist I get that...seeing realistic features in game simply breaks immersion to me.
If you think about it, you are not immersing yourself into the game world. Rather you are extending reality into the game world because you cannot muster yourself diving in, head first, and fully immersing yourself. You are looking for your own frame of reference, which is one foot outside the door, which by trying to make sense of everything, you are pulling yourself out of the game world.
The sad part is, the geme developers are targetting a market with your mind set -- the result, lack of creativity -- because it's too easy to simply based everything in reality, so why work harder...
Definitely agree with the list especially #1, I hate the big weapons. I could not even imagine seeing a Goblin with a 50 foot polearm or some crap like that.
For me as an altoholic, questing is the big immersion breaker for me. Quests don't feel like quests anymore. They do not have the heroic feeling of traveling across the land to find the cave of the scary mean dragon and slaying him in a heroic fight with a friend.
I hate the fact that some quests have you go and kill 10 mobs of this thing in the cave, then collect 10 of these stuff and finally going and killing the boss at the end. I would rather have a big quest of going through the cave killing everything in my way and have obstacles in front of me that introduce new steps to the quest.
Purpose in life is not to gain things, but experience. - Rover64dd
lol, an eye that shoots laser. Man flying like birds without wings. All based on reality? That's why I said, games these days are lacking creativity. Thanks for proving that.
"Just try picturing what an orange scream bouncing on top of an electrocuted dream looks like, you can't because it's got no basis in reality."
Of course I can, because I have a creative mind. The problem with your description of something abstract is you are using words that describe something that is physical like "orange" (either color or fruit, still physical), "bouncing", "on top of", etc. And no, you don't need a frame of reference. To fully immerse yourself, you need to be willing to throw away those "rules", it is hindering yourself from full immersion.
"Picturing" requires imagination and imagination doesn't need to be rooted to reality. As I've said, you have one foot outside the door that prevents you from fully immersing yourself.
You're a realist I get that...seeing realistic features in game simply breaks immersion to me.
If you think about it, you are not immersing yourself into the game world. Rather you are extending reality into the game world because you cannot muster yourself diving in, head first, and fully immersing yourself. You are looking for your own frame of reference, which is one foot outside the door, which by trying to make sense of everything, you are pulling yourself out of the game world.
The sad part is, the geme developers are targetting a market with your mind set -- the result, lack of creativity -- because it's too easy to simply based everything in reality, so why work harder...
Everything has a frame of reference. Even in stating that you could picture the orange scream bouncing on top of an electrocuted dream - well, you've got the points of reference for oranage, scream, electrocuted, and dream.
Fantasy is an extended reality. A changed reality. There is still the frame of reference...to reality.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
That second half didn't help your case thus it was discarded. Immersion is already a state, no such thing as "such a state", you're just making things up.
You immerse yourself into a world where everything is fantastic NOT realistic. The problem I have with games is when more and more realistic stuff are getting into the fantastic world.
Fantastically huge weapons, impenetrable bikini armor, 1-ton tower shield, etc all are good for immersion because you no longer in real world, you are in a fantasy world.
But it seems that is difficult for you to grasp so let me put it this way--the reality in the game world allows you to have exagerrated gears, so why are you going against that reality and not simply accept it?
Yup immersion is already a state. Such a state where you pretend something is real.
You forget that all the fantastic has a basis in reality, and that basis is what allows us to immerse ourselves.
Huge weapons have a basis in reality, normal weapons. Bikini armor has a basis in reality, normal bikinis. etc.
It's not the fantastical aspect that allows immersion, it's the realistical aspect. You can't immerse yourself in something that holds no realistical aspect. You can roleplay a modern soldier. Because he actually exists in reality. You can roleplay an orc, a brutish green-skinned humanoid. Because he's got a basis in reality. You can't roleplay a liquid birthday with the colour of amnesia. Because that has no basis in reality whatsoever.
Something requires a realistical aspect for anyone to immerse themselves in it. Without any basis in reality you can't connect to it and you can't immerse yourself in it.
The more realism the easier it is to immerse yourself in something. Whether or not you personally find it fun to immerse yourself in things very close to reality is another matter entirely.
But it's downright ridiculous to say that the more fantastical, improbable and impossible something is the better it is for immersion. Without a basis in reality there is no immersion.
That's exactly the reason why the recent games lacks creativity. They're so rooted into reality that it became difficult for them to create a game that is fantastic.
If everything has a bearing to reality, then what realistic bearing does a Beholder has? Or let's make it simple, super power that makes you fly? Or anything that defies logic and physics for that matter?
You see, in a fantasy world, real world logic and physics need not to exist.
Sure you can "pretend" all you want, but pretending is not immersing. When you immerse yourself in water, you're not simply pretending to be in water, you are in water.
Your idea of immersion is like having one foot outside the door, which is rooted to what you call reality.
A beholder has eyes, like those you have in reality. Those eyes work exactly the same as you'd expect eyes to work. They're not some fantastical construct, they're real eyes.
A beholder has a mouth, like you have in reality. It works exactly as you'd expect a mouth to work. It's also got teeth which also work exactly as you'd expect teeth to work.
Sure, they've added a few twists like shooting beams of fire (which also have a basis in reality) from the eyes but everything has a root in reality.
Flying certainly has a basis in reality. Just look outside your window. Lots of birds flying. Lots of planes flying. Simply apply that completely realistical concept to another completely realistical concept, a person, and you've got a flying person. Again, both are rooted in reality.
In a fantasy world most real world logic and physics do exist. How many MMOs do not have gravity? How many MMOs do not have trees? How many MMOs do not have suns? How many MMOs do not have causality (how do you even build an MMO without causality)? How many MMOs have fire that doesn't burn? How many MMOs have ice that doesn't freeze?
It's all rooted in reality. You can't escape reality. It's the only thing our brains are able to process. If it isn't rooted in reality we're not able to process it. Just try picturing what an orange scream bouncing on top of an electrocuted dream looks like, you can't because it's got no basis in reality. There's no frame of reference. You need a frame of reference.
If it isn't rooted in reality you can't imagine it. If you can't imagine it you can't immerse yourself in it.
ps. Immersion as relating to water has absolutely nothing to do with immersion as relating to fantasy worlds. Just like right as relating to left has nothing to do with right as relating to wrong. It's a homonym.
I tried and I came up with a pair of red lips with orange lines coming from the lips (like Banshee from the Xmen or like Sindel from Mortal Kombat) bouncing up and down riding on top of a cloud with electrical currents flowing around it while scenes play out on the cloud like a movie or tv show.
I am pretty meh about this list except for #1 and #2. I absolutely agree that Bikini Armor is an immersion breaker for me, and I would go as far as to say it is a deal breaker. Big huge weapons are to me wonderful and add to the sense of a fantasy game, I personally hate bland, boring and realistic weapons.
My list would look as follows, in no particular order:
1. Mounts - I fell take away from exploration and the sense of ambushes that were a part of every Pen & Paper RPG I played years ago.
2. Bikinis and cod piece armor - deal breaker galore.
3. Static group based grinding as evident in games like DAoC and EQ - I feel these break the immersion of being in a real breathing living world.
4. Swooshhhy Street Fighter stylized combat gfx - Most Asian games have them and they seem so un realistic and to action'y.
5. Instancing - from BG's to Dungeons, it takes away from the world and makes cities into glorified lobbys.
Playing: GW2 Waiting on: TESO Next Flop: Planetside 2 Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
I also can be annoyed by the good ol' boozing up. Do we play alcoholic online? Do not get me wrong, I will not take a way the pint of ale from a dwarf. But allow me to cut his beard when he passes out.
Another point is even in D&D there was Charisma which rated how attractive you were. If you had a Charisma stat high enough your beauty could Charm a person. There is a long standing histroy it in not only fantasy for scantially clad warriors, and heroins it's also a mainstay of gaming since its inception.
"One of the worst examples of this horrible trend was in the original Guild Wars. Think Mesmers here. I mean come on. My poor Mesmer had to run around in leather and lace with a party mask on."
THAT'S your worst example? Did it not give you some indication of the profession's background when you met Lady Althea, the Mesmer trainer, at the theater in Lakeside County? And at that theater is a status of Lyssa, patron goddess of Mesmers. One might deduce from that, that Mesmers tend towards nobility and the arts. One might further deduce that they would also tend towards enjoying the finer things in life. Would you really expect a profession like that to wander around in sackcloth and iron plating? And the masks they wear -- perhaps symbolizing the masks of comedy and tragedy which are universally associated with the theater? Think about it.
Furthermore, it's entirely possible that Lady Althea's name was inspired by the poem To Althea, From Prison, written by one Richard LOVELACE. Love lace. Any good Mesmer would.
So are you sure there aren't worse examples out there?
Good point. I can think of a bunch worse examples of Guild Wars breaking immersion than a Mesmer in skimpy clothing.
My #1 Immersion breaker ss skill gains. Most everything else I let slide due to MMO context, but skill gain is HUGE for me. 99% of the MMOs I see use a points based system. I prefer an experience based system, where a skill being used gets better.
I mean come on, when was the last time you honestly thought using a "sword strike" to take out aout 250 mobs and getting no better at that one skill, but then using the knowledge gained from that to improve your shield smash ability was in any was realistic? If it was "I just struck these guys 250 times with a sword i got better at it, and maybe using a shield offensively can help" that would be perfectly fine.
As far as armor goes, it should be directly proportional to the amount of defense needed. Mail and plate style armors should cover most skin, but it can be female shaped. Lether armors should be more forgiving, lether isn't gonna stop much anyway so showing some skin isn't a crime. Cloth should be completely free to do whatever as cloth is even more useless then lether.
Other things I've seen up there are shields not stopping any fom of attack, invisible walls, improper loot for a type of mob, crafted equips being useless, cash shops, and way off-key names like "my _little_pony_hax_all_your_base_are_belong_to_us_now_", no death penalty,
The mesmer armor was created that way for a reason...if you'd actually do a little research and look into WHY it's like that then you'd understand. {mod edit}
Why couldn't you use an example from any other game where you pick up random pieces of armor? You pick Guild Wars, where each profession has it's own specific style, probably the worst example you could have found.
Originally posted by tshack88 The mesmer armor was created that way for a reason...if you'd actually do a little research and look into WHY it's like that then you'd understand. Of course it's just easier to say whatever's on your mind despite the fact that it's horribly ignorant.
Why couldn't you use an example from any other game where you pick up random pieces of armor? You pick Guild Wars, where each profession has it's own specific style, probably the worst example you could have found.
Exactly. Picking the GW armor example is possibly the worst choice ever. All the armor is based on REAL clothing, armor, tribal garb, tattoos, etc. Just because one fails to understand that there is a lore-based reason why they wear that armor, doesnt mean it breaks immersion.
Comments
Who is asking for a real life sim?
People are talking about being able to become immersed in the game world - a form of escapism from the real world.
They are talking about those issues in the fantasy world that break that immersion.
Who was asking for a real life sim?
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
How do any of the top 5 break the immersion in the fantasy world? it is a fantasy world....
"after all, but to see players running in 500 pounds of armor and weaponry without any threat of fatigue setting in is stretching it a bit."
What does he mean by this? Is he comparing this to a real world scenario as no one could possible do it in real life? This is what i mean by comparing a fantasy world to something "non-realistic". Its the whole point of the game.
That's exactly the reason why the recent games lacks creativity. They're so rooted into reality that it became difficult for them to create a game that is fantastic.
If everything has a bearing to reality, then what realistic bearing does a Beholder has? Or let's make it simple, super power that makes you fly? Or anything that defies logic and physics for that matter?
You see, in a fantasy world, real world logic and physics need not to exist.
Sure you can "pretend" all you want, but pretending is not immersing. When you immerse yourself in water, you're not simply pretending to be in water, you are in water.
Your idea of immersion is like having one foot outside the door, which is rooted to what you call reality.
Ready for GW2!!!
Argh i'm blind now, thanks MMORPG ! Who put that horrible picture ?
A fantasy world is still premised on a real world. You take a real world and you add fantasy elements. You add superscience, you add magic, you change how something works, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc.
How do they break immersion? They create the question of WHY?
Why am I running everywhere? If you ask that, you've broken immersion. The NPCs are not all running around. I am. They're not. Why am I? In a superhero game where there is super speed - you're not going to ask why you're running faster than a car. It does not break immersion. Running everywhere in your standard game though - does for many people.
The same goes for mounts indoors. It stands out. It calls attention to itself. Some people ask WHY? The same for all of them . . . if you're asking WHY? about something - the immersion has been broken.
The #1 option caused the most problem it appears based on the replies. I think #1 is situational. In some games, oversized weapons are not going to call attention to themselves (kind of like I said about the super speed). In some games, they will.
One of the most common abilities brought up in discussing additional realism in games - is - fireballs. How on Earth can anybody talk about realism or immersion in games when there are fireballs? Fireballs fit that particular game. They do not break immersion in a game with magic - where people toss fireballs at each other. Imagine throwing fireballs in MW3 though. WTF? See . . . it breaks immersion. Some things are situational. The things that might break immersion for one player are not going to break them for all.
Depending on what else is going on, you may subconsciously suspend your disbelief more - letting things slide, because you're having fun - are distracted by what else is going on. At other times, things will simply stand out entirely too much... and you just "ugh" when you see them and they pull you out of the game.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
There was an old Ultima feature that I heard about.... the animals of the world acted like real animals.... there wasn't any respawning.... the animals gave birth to other animals and if you killed too many of one in an area, its predator would move to new areas in search of a new food source....
As I heard it, the feature didn't really work all to well because players simply killed all of the creatures they found, leaving no creatures to repopulate.... So they had to change it to a respawning method....
I think a game should find a good balance between the two.... have animals grow naturally in an area but allow for respawning in order to keep a certain species from completely dying out. Also, allow for animal travel across the worlds.... For instance, in WoW, the creatures stay to their specific territory, never leaving.... while I would have set territory for creatures, I would allow those creatures to move freely throughout the world as the computer saw fit....
There are a few discussions on that Artifical Life Engine - but yep, instead of it being an either or - some compromise would be nifty.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
"One of the worst examples of this horrible trend was in the original Guild Wars. Think Mesmers here. I mean come on. My poor Mesmer had to run around in leather and lace with a party mask on."
THAT'S your worst example? Did it not give you some indication of the profession's background when you met Lady Althea, the Mesmer trainer, at the theater in Lakeside County? And at that theater is a status of Lyssa, patron goddess of Mesmers. One might deduce from that, that Mesmers tend towards nobility and the arts. One might further deduce that they would also tend towards enjoying the finer things in life. Would you really expect a profession like that to wander around in sackcloth and iron plating? And the masks they wear -- perhaps symbolizing the masks of comedy and tragedy which are universally associated with the theater? Think about it.
Furthermore, it's entirely possible that Lady Althea's name was inspired by the poem To Althea, From Prison, written by one Richard LOVELACE. Love lace. Any good Mesmer would.
So are you sure there aren't worse examples out there?
A beholder has eyes, like those you have in reality. Those eyes work exactly the same as you'd expect eyes to work. They're not some fantastical construct, they're real eyes.
A beholder has a mouth, like you have in reality. It works exactly as you'd expect a mouth to work. It's also got teeth which also work exactly as you'd expect teeth to work.
Sure, they've added a few twists like shooting beams of fire (which also have a basis in reality) from the eyes but everything has a root in reality.
Flying certainly has a basis in reality. Just look outside your window. Lots of birds flying. Lots of planes flying. Simply apply that completely realistical concept to another completely realistical concept, a person, and you've got a flying person. Again, both are rooted in reality.
In a fantasy world most real world logic and physics do exist. How many MMOs do not have gravity? How many MMOs do not have trees? How many MMOs do not have suns? How many MMOs do not have causality (how do you even build an MMO without causality)? How many MMOs have fire that doesn't burn? How many MMOs have ice that doesn't freeze?
It's all rooted in reality. You can't escape reality. It's the only thing our brains are able to process. If it isn't rooted in reality we're not able to process it. Just try picturing what an orange scream bouncing on top of an electrocuted dream looks like, you can't because it's got no basis in reality. There's no frame of reference. You need a frame of reference.
If it isn't rooted in reality you can't imagine it. If you can't imagine it you can't immerse yourself in it.
ps. Immersion as relating to water has absolutely nothing to do with immersion as relating to fantasy worlds. Just like right as relating to left has nothing to do with right as relating to wrong. It's a homonym.
We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
''/\/\'''''/\/\''''''/\/\
( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o)
(")("),,(")("),(")(")
For me my imerse killer is when I get that feeling that the devs didn't make a world but made quests and then created a world around that. It just feels wrong to me when the world ist just big enough for the quests. There is nothing to explore. Outpost and towns are just there to give quest givers a spot to stand. etc...
I will not play a game with a cash shop ever again. A dev job should be to make the game better not make me pay so it sucks less.
My list of top 5
1.) NPC Guards that are all but useless in defending citizens/players of their realm.
2.) Lack of consequences to extremely anti-social behavior that would normally have the inter-galactic/medieval police swat team deployed against a player acting out in a populated area.
3.) Linear Progression
4.) Fauna and Flora that appear to have no discernible function other then to be meat and loot factories for players. Saga of Ryzom has a wonderful set of scripted interactions with their Fauna that makes you almost believe they are truly alive. That is some animals are herd or pack animals while others are loners, most hunt for food be it by grazing or actively seeking prey/players to eat be it alone or in a group.
5.) Repetitive and uninspiring tasks to accomplish basic game-play goals.
Games I've played/tried out:WAR, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, AoC, EQ1, EQ2, WoW, Vangaurd, FFXI, D&DO, Lineage 2, Saga Of Ryzom, EvE Online, DAoC, Guild Wars,Star Wars Galaxies, Hell Gate London, Auto Assault, Grando Espada ( AKA SoTNW ), Archlord, CoV/H, Star Trek Online, APB, Champions Online, FFXIV, Rift Online, GW2.
Game(s) I Am Currently Playing:
GW2 (+LoL and BF3)
Gotta say, none of the OP's top 5 would even crack my top 40. Quick responses to those first:
5) Running. While running (and to an even greater extent, overuse of jumping) may stand out as downright silly to a new MMO spectator, I have long since become desensitized to these necessary actions. If these features were absent, it would greatly affect my immersion!
4) Mounts indoors. I'm not sure I've played an MMO where riding was allowed indoors, but I don't think I would object to it. It has occurred in reality after all. Although I suppose it can be argued that reality isn't all that immersive...
3) Children. I agree there need to be more kids in games. I also believe you should be able to make child avatars. Maybe it's the Final Fantasy child hero in me. However, the lack of something cannot ruin my immersion.
2) "Distracting" armor. Sure, if someone decides to bust out their snuggie on the battlefield, it breaks my immersion. I'm reminded that I'm playing a game, and that there's a person somewhere else in the world controlling that character that's making a scene. But I'm also a huge fan games providing me with the ability to put together the most outlandish ensemble I can conceive. Like running, it's an instance I gladly trade realism for fun. As far as sexy armor goes, I'm indifferent toward its existence, but it definitely does not break my immersion.
1) Oversized weapons. I won't be satisfied until I can wield Sephiroth's Masamune from Kingdom Hearts.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My own immersion breakers:
5) Accessible teleportation/ super fast transportation made available at early levels. Few things are more important to my immersion than experiencing the vastness and massiveness of the MMO world through traditional exploration. If the game does not make me find my way on foot first, I lose all perspective on the world's size and where everything is in relation to everything else. This includes instant porting to dungeons via dungeon finders. Make me learn the geography of the world first, then give me faster transportation. Teleportation should always be used sparingly, and requires proper justification within the game's lore.
4) Ignorant global chat conversation. I could be in the middle of the most intense gaming experience of my life, but if I hear the September 11 attacks were planned by the U.S. government or how how Hitler was an atheist so atheists are all genocidal maniacs or how Hitler was a Christian so all Christians are genocidal maniacs, my experience is shattered...and I won't be able to get it up for the rest of the night. Let's be honest though, there's amost no way chat channels cannot break immersion; that is, remind you you're a person staring at a computer monitor.
3) Dominating UI/Quest Helper. If my UI covers more than 20% of my screen, it's preventing me from experiencing the game. I find myself swiping at my monitor, trying to push the curtains aside so I can see the world. Likewise, I don't want to spend more time paying attention to the color-coded quest locations on my mini map than I to the actual world around me.
2) Cash shops + advertisements. Completely pausing your game to browse a RMT shop = the definition of immersion broken.
1) Invisible walls, no jumping, untraversable terrain. If I cannot physically interact with the virtual world, I get frustrated and start thinking about the game's engine and the developer's decisions. Nothing frustrates me more today (since there have been plenty of games already that have successfully provided complete terrain traversability) than seeing a stream that I can't jump over or walk through, or a slight slope that I just bump into as if into a brick wall, or mountains that cannot be scaled in any way. By necessity, jumping is included in this category.
lol, an eye that shoots laser. Man flying like birds without wings. All based on reality? That's why I said, games these days are lacking creativity. Thanks for proving that.
"Just try picturing what an orange scream bouncing on top of an electrocuted dream looks like, you can't because it's got no basis in reality."
Of course I can, because I have a creative mind. The problem with your description of something abstract is you are using words that describe something that is physical like "orange" (either color or fruit, still physical), "bouncing", "on top of", etc. And no, you don't need a frame of reference. To fully immerse yourself, you need to be willing to throw away those "rules", it is hindering yourself from full immersion.
"Picturing" requires imagination and imagination doesn't need to be rooted to reality. As I've said, you have one foot outside the door that prevents you from fully immersing yourself.
You're a realist I get that...seeing realistic features in game simply breaks immersion to me.
If you think about it, you are not immersing yourself into the game world. Rather you are extending reality into the game world because you cannot muster yourself diving in, head first, and fully immersing yourself. You are looking for your own frame of reference, which is one foot outside the door, which by trying to make sense of everything, you are pulling yourself out of the game world.
The sad part is, the geme developers are targetting a market with your mind set -- the result, lack of creativity -- because it's too easy to simply based everything in reality, so why work harder...
Ready for GW2!!!
Definitely agree with the list especially #1, I hate the big weapons. I could not even imagine seeing a Goblin with a 50 foot polearm or some crap like that.
For me as an altoholic, questing is the big immersion breaker for me. Quests don't feel like quests anymore. They do not have the heroic feeling of traveling across the land to find the cave of the scary mean dragon and slaying him in a heroic fight with a friend.
I hate the fact that some quests have you go and kill 10 mobs of this thing in the cave, then collect 10 of these stuff and finally going and killing the boss at the end. I would rather have a big quest of going through the cave killing everything in my way and have obstacles in front of me that introduce new steps to the quest.
Purpose in life is not to gain things, but experience. - Rover64dd
Everything has a frame of reference. Even in stating that you could picture the orange scream bouncing on top of an electrocuted dream - well, you've got the points of reference for oranage, scream, electrocuted, and dream.
Fantasy is an extended reality. A changed reality. There is still the frame of reference...to reality.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
I tried and I came up with a pair of red lips with orange lines coming from the lips (like Banshee from the Xmen or like Sindel from Mortal Kombat) bouncing up and down riding on top of a cloud with electrical currents flowing around it while scenes play out on the cloud like a movie or tv show.
Was a bad example you gave I guess oO!
I am pretty meh about this list except for #1 and #2. I absolutely agree that Bikini Armor is an immersion breaker for me, and I would go as far as to say it is a deal breaker. Big huge weapons are to me wonderful and add to the sense of a fantasy game, I personally hate bland, boring and realistic weapons.
My list would look as follows, in no particular order:
1. Mounts - I fell take away from exploration and the sense of ambushes that were a part of every Pen & Paper RPG I played years ago.
2. Bikinis and cod piece armor - deal breaker galore.
3. Static group based grinding as evident in games like DAoC and EQ - I feel these break the immersion of being in a real breathing living world.
4. Swooshhhy Street Fighter stylized combat gfx - Most Asian games have them and they seem so un realistic and to action'y.
5. Instancing - from BG's to Dungeons, it takes away from the world and makes cities into glorified lobbys.
Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online
Playing: GW2
Waiting on: TESO
Next Flop: Planetside 2
Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
My #1 is non-roleplayers.
Jim H. Moreno
I agree on every point.
I also can be annoyed by the good ol' boozing up. Do we play alcoholic online? Do not get me wrong, I will not take a way the pint of ale from a dwarf. But allow me to cut his beard when he passes out.
Another point is even in D&D there was Charisma which rated how attractive you were. If you had a Charisma stat high enough your beauty could Charm a person. There is a long standing histroy it in not only fantasy for scantially clad warriors, and heroins it's also a mainstay of gaming since its inception.
Instancing: Two players in the general game world in the same place but can't see each other because they are in seperate instances? Lame.
Loading Screens: Unless it is somehow explained in game like a magical/scientific teleport device, loading screens when crossing zones is stupid.
Global Chat: I believe in some countries where torture is legal they make political prisoners read Barren's chat.
Bad Names: Any name like 'xX[Name]Xx' or along the lines of '1337killer', 'bangedurmom' or any version of 'Sephiroth' or 'Drizzt' got to go.
Sale pitches for items or content: I get a pop-up in-game asking me if I want to purchase something, I uninstall.
Good point. I can think of a bunch worse examples of Guild Wars breaking immersion than a Mesmer in skimpy clothing.
My #1 Immersion breaker ss skill gains. Most everything else I let slide due to MMO context, but skill gain is HUGE for me. 99% of the MMOs I see use a points based system. I prefer an experience based system, where a skill being used gets better.
I mean come on, when was the last time you honestly thought using a "sword strike" to take out aout 250 mobs and getting no better at that one skill, but then using the knowledge gained from that to improve your shield smash ability was in any was realistic? If it was "I just struck these guys 250 times with a sword i got better at it, and maybe using a shield offensively can help" that would be perfectly fine.
As far as armor goes, it should be directly proportional to the amount of defense needed. Mail and plate style armors should cover most skin, but it can be female shaped. Lether armors should be more forgiving, lether isn't gonna stop much anyway so showing some skin isn't a crime. Cloth should be completely free to do whatever as cloth is even more useless then lether.
Other things I've seen up there are shields not stopping any fom of attack, invisible walls, improper loot for a type of mob, crafted equips being useless, cash shops, and way off-key names like "my _little_pony_hax_all_your_base_are_belong_to_us_now_", no death penalty,
The mesmer armor was created that way for a reason...if you'd actually do a little research and look into WHY it's like that then you'd understand. {mod edit}
Why couldn't you use an example from any other game where you pick up random pieces of armor? You pick Guild Wars, where each profession has it's own specific style, probably the worst example you could have found.