was thinking about this yesterday and today i find this articel..lol
this quest for balance to me is a quest for a boring game!! for me i dont need every class or profession to be balanced with each individualy. i prefer they have their own strengths and weaknesses that when combined make balanced gameplay. isnt the point of playing an mmorpg to play along with others? (i know sometimes its not possible) im also tired of everyone expecting everything be given to them equally. if someone has played more hours thus working harding to get something they deserve to have something more than the person who has played less time. life is not fair or balanced and no mmo should be either. for me i play to escape into a virtual world and thus i dont want everything balanced in my game. i prefer a virtual sandbox type world in my games but thats just me.
I think fallacy may be a wrong word for your title. A fallacy is when you deploy an incorrect argumentative tool that results in a false presumption, not a false presumption that leads to more false results.
In truth people care about balance. Imagine a game where you are leveling along and you are camped by someone two levels lower than you for four hours. Of course you want to be able to kill this guy, but the game isn't balanced. Some people go to the extreme about balance and want something that is equal (as opposed to balance).
What you may be describing is the forums crybabies who are upset that their Feral Druid can't beat someones Destro Lock 100% of the time.
By bringing in the extreme Pay2Win model you have opened a hailstorm. Pay2Win games are created imbalanced specifically so that you will spend money. A subscription game is created balanced and constantly updated and improved to further that balance.
In one sense I agree with you. In another I very much disagree with you. You seem to have a very narrow definition of what an MMO is...
- You seem to think an MMO must be gear based, and that gear must provide you with a significant advantage over other players.
- You seem to think that an MMO must be Level/Advancement based, and that Level/Advancement must provide one with a significant advanatage over other players.
- You seem to think Character Skill must outweigh Player Skill in terms of how well you perform in combat.
I'll grant you that your assumptions are fairly representitive of the dirt typical cookie-cutter MMO's that most Developers seem to churn out these days but they are certainly not representitive of what an MMO must be nor is it even representitive of all the MMO's that are currently out there.
Take a look at WWII Online for an example (an MMO on mmorpg.com's game list) of an MMO that doesn't fit those assumptions very well.
It is entirely possible to design an MMO that has ZERO advancement, either in terms of gear or in terms of character levels. It won't be very popular with those gamers who are primarly of the "Achiever" type, but those are NOT the only type of gamer out there (even if they are probably the largest segment). For instance, very few gamers wanting to play an online baseball game/league would by much interested in "leveling up" thier shortstop to level 27 and obtaining a +3 purple fielders glove of awsomeness so they can increase thier throw accuracy. Games mean different things to different people.
I agree with you that seeking "balance" in the sense that alot of MMO players/Dev's seem to consider it is a fools errend. Balance does not exist in nature....some people are faster, stronger, smarter, taller, etc then others..... so expecting characters to be exactly the same/equal in all regards is just plain dumb (IMO). "Balance" to me in MMO/RPG terms simply means that no one character build/type outperforms others in ALL (or most) aspects of the game. That's it, and it's really not all that difficult to achieve. The problem that most MMO's today run into in that regards is that they have such narrow variety in game-play that it becomes difficult to differentiate areas of specialty. Almost none of them have any significant non-combat challanges.....and even in terms of combat there is really almost no varirety....all combat is pretty much the same with very minor varietions put in.
If you look at traditional pen n' paper DnD for example. It didn't really matter that the Thief couldn't do as much damage or take as much damage as the Warrior, because the Thiefs primary role wasn't to fight things. His role was recon..... to spot dangers before the party ran into them and to help the party avoid them (traps, enemies, etc)....to get the party into places that they couldn't otherwise get to or even know about....and to obtain items for them that they couldn't otherwise get. In a well designed scenerio, those things were just as important if not more so then anyones ability to swing a sword. Heck, even in terms of combat....when was the last time in an MMO that you ran into opponents that couldn't be hit with physical weapons and required spells to defeat....or even ones that took 3 times more damage from a holy spell then a mage spell?
The balance problem with most MMO's is that have enough variety in game-play or even combat to have room to emphasize different specialities and abilities. That's why there is so much angst about OP... because if you pretty much only have one thing to do....having significant differences in how well a particular character type does it becomes problematic.... if you have 100 different things to do...not really so much of a big deal with any given one of them.
This really isn't all that difficult to model though....just takes a bit of brains in game design. If, for example, we look at WWII-Online, tanks (the vehicle variety...not "tanks" in MMO terms) have really powerfull weapons and armor.....but stick them in dense forest or close urban terrain and they are absolutely dead meat without supporting infantry. The lowley rifleman with nothing but a bolt action firearm, a handfull of grenades and a cotton shirt between him and danger is just as important as the guy in the 10 ton steel monster...because he can do things the tanker can't. That's balance.
Finaly in terms of P2W, the reason why it is so offensive to people is that it goes against the core spirit of what most people percieve games to be all about....which is namely achievement is about what the player does on the field (or in the game) and a measure of the skills they bring to the game...... not about what they have OFF the field (like a bigger bank account). No one minds that people who pay extra get prefered seeting in a concert or a movie....because what people expect to get out of those experiences is very different. Maybe if the Pay2Win Developers stopped calling thier products "games" and called them Interactive Entertainment Experiences or something like that instead.... then we really wouldn't be bothered with P2W.... but the word "game" comes with a very specific set of expectations in most peoples mind.....and that usualy doesn't entail buying your way to advantadges or results.
Firstly for me in this thread is right off I got hit with yet another poster using abbreviations like a entitled DHMF
^ if you do not know what DHMF means it is because I like 30-40% of $%&#% on every gaming forum did not use abbreviatrion correctly. (any forum) (obviously we all know LoL and PvP)
The first time spell it out then put the abbreviation ( abb.) next to it like I just did.
DO not make everyone guess what MMO you refer to(or ANY abbrevfiation) like we all have time to memorize them all like luggage tags. after you spell it out then show the abbreviation, you are clear to proceed.
I am not a grammar major or grammar police, But having people know what you are saying seems pretty dang obvious, no need for education to have common sense.
As to the Original post....
Some games are balanced correctly in concept. So you fail. I really felt this article was the worst I have seen here.
PvE and balance? say what? Anyone who is whinning about unbalanced PvE, who cares?
PvP is where they simply need to have a balanced system, and hopefully that balance will not be 1on1 balance, or you end up with the monkies at blizzard changing the game for the worse every month.
Although Guild Wars seems a great system that in the bright exception to that rule. I hope the upcoming guild wars is better then the first as it was not appealing to me enough as and all around game.
Pay to win games are fine, let us please take all the pay to win people and lock them in their worlds so the rest of us can play a GAMe on even footing without them, everyone wins.
I hate the idea people escape into a game to get away from the horrible things going on in the world like 400 people in america having more money then the rest combined, only to have that scenario replay in the game. ( if you understand why the former is a nightmare, thank you)
I simply have no time for that or anyone would would want that.
Since the original poster said this...
"Now it’s time to gear up so you can do more challenging encounters to (wait for it)gear up more. It’s a vicious cycle that has devoured many who would not have it any other way; myself included."
I honestly have no intrest in anyting further he may have to say. Some people just think so backwards from my point of view, I wish them well, but elsewhere.
"Oh, you want a balanced MMO? Too bad! It's never going to happen."
Totally agree! In fact the whole balance issues that kill most games stems from PvP & the crying players that can't kill this or that because of x,y, & z.
When a Knight on horseback charged into a group of Archers in any medieval war the Archers didn't (ok, couldn't) cry about balance.
Things aren't meant to be balanced, MMOs are becoming a clonefest.
The players crying are killing more games that comes out... and all in the name of balance! It's really sad!
Tell that to the French at Agincourt
The thing about real life (or even alot of games outside of MMO's) is that there are very few unit/equipment types that are superior in ALL situations.
Heck even a Tiger Tank.....warp it into a world where there is no gas, no ammo and no spare parts available....and guys riding around on horseback with lances suddenly don't start to look so bad.
I honestly feel MMO's are like the rest of life...ruined by the less intelligent.
People like the Original poster (OP) are the other responsible party as to why MMO's suck so hard.
Anyone who embraces the mindless gear aid aidgear system is, and has been killing the entire genre. The OP reminds me in tone of all those people that argue against improving games.
It would not matter if we had a more seperated market,. Let the hamsters run in their wheels while we play a game of some creativity.
That is not the case however. The companies have been mostly fools in understanding gamers. So even the ones that could be awesome, stop way short to placate to my sister n law and soccer moms, and also the less intelligent.
Balance is just someone's perception of it in any game. I will agree there is no such thing. The rock, paper scissors method does not apply to any MMO that I know of either.
On the other hand, it depends on the game of course, but the pay-to-win games I have experienced, almost all give such an advantage to the payer that there really is no chance given to those that don't pay and it is a never ending cycle. As the game ages, you are forced to continue paying or rapidly fall to the bottom.
At least a game without pay-to-win items provides a far better chance for everyone.
Don't mix business with pleasure. The complaint about pay-to-win is mostly about the intrusion of the business model into the play model and the distortions it causes. There is a very real risk that the game will cease to be a game at all and more like a salesman constantly whispering in your ear.
Distortions to game balance are the first symptoms. It's disingenuous to suggest that there is no concept of game balance in MMOs when developers are constantly tweaking/nerfing to get the right feel in play.
The argument is flawed in so many levels. The article talks about the imbalance, not due to the game, but due to the player's play style, schedule, or habit. Those has nothing to do with the game.
The balance and fairness in an MMO is having equal access to ingame contents. Even if I'm behind gear-wise, if I have access to those items, then that is fair. The difficulty of finding a guild that will help me go through the old raids has nothing to do with the game's fairness or balance...that's a community issue.
The major balance issue is between PvE and PvP where gears of the same level or better can be attained thru either path. PvE want their Raid gears be better than the Arena gear, vice versa, so it requires attention for the sake of balance and fairness. Other than this, everything that the article talked about has something to do with the community and not the game.
Now about this so-called-"end game", to me there's no such thing, there's only "game over". When I ran out of things to do, it's game over. So in an MMO, the game is never over because there's a lot of things to do, often overwhelming, but it keeps me playing. I find a lot of players just simply stop playing because they reached the "end game", but that's ridiculous because the reason why it's a persistent live world is so that the game has no end. It's kind of silly seeing some guild mates leaving the game because they are either waiting for the next patch or xpac...but what about helping out other guild members?
I don't know but this "end game" raids brings out the worst of people but I can't really blame them since the game makes everyone run the same raid over and over and over just to get all the gear pieces. It gets old really fast trying to gear 25 players of your 25-man raid let alone trying to gear the rest of the guild members of 50-100. Those first 25 will not run that raid ever again and that's where the disconnect happens. But that's hardly the game's fault because those gears are designed for those who raid and not for those who cannot raid and just wanted to be carried thru.
My last tier gear in WoW was from Naxx and it took 3 months to get all pieces which by that time Ulduar was released. The guild fell apart after Ulduar because they are waiting for the ICC raid....so the rest of the guild has no one to run the Ulduar raid, thus the guild fell apart since those members seek help else where. But this is not the first time I witnessed this trend, it happened during Black Temple, Kara, and Sunwell. Each time I was left without raid gears from those raid. But the fact is, I never enjoy raiding, so pushing to get those gear is futile, because looking back at Naxx, those gears aren't worth it for the time invested....that is to me, at least.
So instaed, I focused on other aspect of the game, like lores, crafting, explorations, achievements, etc. Those things I enjoy and those things never end my game.
This has to be one of the most mind boggling articles I have read at the site. I read it the first time, went to smoke, and came back to read it again.
The premise is that P2W, even though the author acknowledges that it messes up balance, is okay because MMOs are not balanced anyway. This argument has been made before. It is usually made with the "time investment" vs. "money investment" comparison. Some have more time, some have more money - etc, etc, etc (the argument usually devolves into people tossing flaming kittens at each other). ***As an aside, I've found it funny how many of these articles are basically trolling/baiting according to the Rules of Conduct.***
However, what totally blew my mind was the manner in which the author actually states where the balance is off.
It appears as if the author is complaining about new content being tiered more than anything. After all, he calls it a "vicious cycle that has devoured many" while talking about the tiered gear grind of endgame. So somehow, more content that requires you having completed previous content . . . is a bad thing . . . and this bad thing, creates an imbalance . . . which is not fair . . . because people that have completed more content than you, er, have completed more content than you . . . so if a company releases more and more new content . . . it is a bad thing...
...so P2W is fine.
WTF? Seriously? He's kidding right?
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
I think we got side tracked a little,this is more about end game than balance.
End game has nothing to do with balance,becuase in essence your game is over,that is why it would be called end game.I find it comical to see so many people worry about gear for a player that is already done,imo it is a waste of time.
YES this is a poorly designed game because i played FFXI for 8 years and you never worried or even cared about end game.In FFXI the entire game was a ride and if you were waiting for friends you could camp rare boss mobs while farming.The reality is that FFXI was not huge on gear most was all accesible and the rare stuff for the most part did not separate players from performing well in a group.
That is the difference between good design and poor ones,the poor ones leave players thinking about rushing to end game,becuase there is no other game worth caring about.FFXI it was about the group and balance NEVER matters in a group becuase you are working together.You could craft to attain better stats and in FFXI food mattered more than any other game.You could eat food to give yoruself a lot better accuracy,that would be much more important than say a better sword that never hits.
The actual end game in FFXI was a HUGE time sink,but it was a good thing because not many worried about it then.The class design was fun,grouping was fun and there was always tons to do if not grouping.The biggie was being able to further advance your player through new classes becuase FFXI was the first game to actually get class design right.Your player did not end at level cap,it continued thorugh sub classes,this gives your player tons more longevity and usefulness.
Bottom line is these other games need to worry about balance or what class should be nerfed because the design of the game is shallow not done well at all.Grouping games are the proper way to go ,no excuses ,you go the solo and raid or PVP route you ask for a poor community and selfishness and crying and drama ect ect.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
The OP has a very limited view and definition of what an MMO is.
Also, he is clearly speaking to a relatively small percentage of players who enjoy and embrace raiding and the gear-grind. Not a bad thing. But don't phrase it like its the be-all of MMO's.
So your argument about Pay2Win is invalid because its built on a very narrow and shakey foundation.
Originally posted by gimmekey "Ehh, life already sucks, so why not have unprotected sex with that jaundiced hooker who has sores on her face?"If the OP had stopped short of pay-to-win, I would have agreed. What next? People buying their way into the olympics?" Hai guiys I was too lazy to train the past couple of years so here's a hundred bucks for pole position".
People do buy their way into the Olympics. If you chart the cost per athlete in the Olympics, the athletes who received more funding in their training programs won more gold. It's the same way in professional sports.
Yes, I realize there is somebody out there putting the effort in, but the athletes and the teams that have more money win more often and on a more regular basis.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
This is moronic. Money does not equal time. The whole point of MMOs is to spend time.
YOU MADE A CHOICE TO SPEND TIME ON OTHER THINGS. HOW YOU SPEND YOUR TIME IS UP TO YOU. MONEY IS NOT AN EVEN RESOURCE LIKE TIME. SOME PEOPLE WORK FOR IT, SOME PEOPLE DONT, SOME PEOPLE ARE BORN CAPABLE OF TASKS WORTH MORE MONEY. TIME IS A LEVELING FACTOR THAT IS ESSENTIALLY EQUAL FOR ALL PEOPLE.
That is why time is what progression should be based on. Not money. I have money. Plenty of it to spend on games and pay2win. I also have time. More than most people. The argument that I want work to win over pay to win doesn't hold because I have the option of both.
This is moronic. Money does not equal time. The whole point of MMOs is to spend time.
YOU MADE A CHOICE TO SPEND TIME ON OTHER THINGS. HOW YOU SPEND YOUR TIME IS UP TO YOU. MONEY IS NOT AN EVEN RESOURCE LIKE TIME. SOME PEOPLE WORK FOR IT, SOME PEOPLE DONT, SOME PEOPLE ARE BORN CAPABLE OF TASKS WORTH MORE MONEY. TIME IS A LEVELING FACTOR THAT IS ESSENTIALLY EQUAL FOR ALL PEOPLE.
That is why time is what progression should be based on. Not money. I have money. Plenty of it to spend on games and pay2win. I also have time. More than most people. The argument that I want work to win over pay to win doesn't hold because I have the option of both.
Time is fair. Money is not.
"Time is fair. Money is not." - Because everyone has time, but not everyone has money? Or maybe it's because everyone has money, but not everyone has time? How is time any more fair than money? Some people have money, some people have time, some people have time and money and guess what, some people have no time and no money. Either sounds fair to me.
"This is moronic. Money does not equal time. The whole point of MMOs is to spend time." - Hah, this made me laugh. Technically the only reason MMOs or games are created at all is to obtain your money. How much time you spend playing really isn't important to the creator of the game. So essentially... the whole point of MMOs is to get your money or as you put it... to spend your money.
And if some people spend their time to obtain money, shouldn't they then be able to trade the money for loss time that could have been spent elsewhere? This isn't a game mechanic, this is a life mechanic. You can pay $20 and 40 minutes to get your oil changed or pay $65 and 15 minutes, or you can spend $10 and maybe an hour of your time doing it yourself. All these options work in the real world because when you start thinking about the things you do, and the time spent doing them, and the amount of money it costs for someone else to do it, then at some point it crosses a threshold and it makes more sense to pay than to do things yourself... heck thats what the whole service industry is based off it.
"They essentially want to say 'Correlation proves Causation' when it's just not true." - Sovrath
"Ehh, life already sucks, so why not have unprotected sex with that jaundiced hooker who has sores on her face?"If the OP had stopped short of pay-to-win, I would have agreed. What next? People buying their way into the olympics?" Hai guiys I was too lazy to train the past couple of years so here's a hundred bucks for pole position".
People do buy their way into the Olympics. If you chart the cost per athlete in the Olympics, the athletes who received more funding in their training programs won more gold. It's the same way in professional sports.
Yes, I realize there is somebody out there putting the effort in, but the athletes and the teams that have more money win more often and on a more regular basis.
Way to completely go on a tangent and miss the obvious point.
I honestly feel MMO's are like the rest of life...ruined by the less intelligent.
People like the Original poster (OP) are the other responsible party as to why MMO's suck so hard.
Anyone who embraces the mindless gear aid aidgear system is, and has been killing the entire genre. The OP reminds me in tone of all those people that argue against improving games.
It would not matter if we had a more seperated market,. Let the hamsters run in their wheels while we play a game of some creativity.
That is not the case however. The companies have been mostly fools in understanding gamers. So even the ones that could be awesome, stop way short to placate to my sister n law and soccer moms, and also the less intelligent.
This reminds me of the old George Carlin line "My stuff is stuff, your stuff is shit."
This reminds me of the old George Carlin line "My stuff is stuff, your stuff is shit."
It is kind of funny how many Carlin quotes can be applied to MMOs...
Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?
I think people should be allowed to do anything they want. We haven't tried that for a while. Maybe this time it'll work.
Inside every cynical person, there is a disappointed idealist.
Not only do I not know what's going on, I wouldn't know what to do about it if I did.
People who say they don't care what people think are usually desperate to have people think they don't care what people think.
Some people see things that are and ask, Why? Some people dream of things that never were and ask, Why not? Some people have to go to work and don't have time for all that.
The reason I talk to myself is that I'm the only one whose answers I accept.
When someone is impatient and says, "I haven't got all day," I always wonder, How can that be? How can you not have all day?
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
This reminds me of the old George Carlin line "My stuff is stuff, your stuff is shit."
It is kind of funny how many Carlin quotes can be applied to MMOs...
Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?
I think people should be allowed to do anything they want. We haven't tried that for a while. Maybe this time it'll work.
Inside every cynical person, there is a disappointed idealist.
Not only do I not know what's going on, I wouldn't know what to do about it if I did.
People who say they don't care what people think are usually desperate to have people think they don't care what people think.
Some people see things that are and ask, Why? Some people dream of things that never were and ask, Why not? Some people have to go to work and don't have time for all that.
The reason I talk to myself is that I'm the only one whose answers I accept.
When someone is impatient and says, "I haven't got all day," I always wonder, How can that be? How can you not have all day?
Hehe, Carlin was a God among men. (metaphorically speaking before I get people yelling at me)
Originally posted by gimmekey Originally posted by lizardbonesOriginally posted by gimmekey"Ehh, life already sucks, so why not have unprotected sex with that jaundiced hooker who has sores on her face?"If the OP had stopped short of pay-to-win, I would have agreed. What next? People buying their way into the olympics?" Hai guiys I was too lazy to train the past couple of years so here's a hundred bucks for pole position".
People do buy their way into the Olympics. If you chart the cost per athlete in the Olympics, the athletes who received more funding in their training programs won more gold. It's the same way in professional sports. Yes, I realize there is somebody out there putting the effort in, but the athletes and the teams that have more money win more often and on a more regular basis. Way to completely go on a tangent and miss the obvious point.
If you get to use hyperbole, I get to go off on tangents.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
This is moronic. Money does not equal time. The whole point of MMOs is to spend time.
YOU MADE A CHOICE TO SPEND TIME ON OTHER THINGS. HOW YOU SPEND YOUR TIME IS UP TO YOU. MONEY IS NOT AN EVEN RESOURCE LIKE TIME. SOME PEOPLE WORK FOR IT, SOME PEOPLE DONT, SOME PEOPLE ARE BORN CAPABLE OF TASKS WORTH MORE MONEY. TIME IS A LEVELING FACTOR THAT IS ESSENTIALLY EQUAL FOR ALL PEOPLE.
That is why time is what progression should be based on. Not money. I have money. Plenty of it to spend on games and pay2win. I also have time. More than most people. The argument that I want work to win over pay to win doesn't hold because I have the option of both.
Time is fair. Money is not.
"Time is fair. Money is not." - Because everyone has time, but not everyone has money? Or maybe it's because everyone has money, but not everyone has time? How is time any more fair than money? Some people have money, some people have time, some people have time and money and guess what, some people have no time and no money. Either sounds fair to me.
"This is moronic. Money does not equal time. The whole point of MMOs is to spend time." - Hah, this made me laugh. Technically the only reason MMOs or games are created at all is to obtain your money. How much time you spend playing really isn't important to the creator of the game. So essentially... the whole point of MMOs is to get your money or as you put it... to spend your money.
And if some people spend their time to obtain money, shouldn't they then be able to trade the money for loss time that could have been spent elsewhere? This isn't a game mechanic, this is a life mechanic. You can pay $20 and 40 minutes to get your oil changed or pay $65 and 15 minutes, or you can spend $10 and maybe an hour of your time doing it yourself. All these options work in the real world because when you start thinking about the things you do, and the time spent doing them, and the amount of money it costs for someone else to do it, then at some point it crosses a threshold and it makes more sense to pay than to do things yourself... heck thats what the whole service industry is based off it.
what part of some people have better capacity to get money dont you understand? so yes, you can trade money for time, BUT ITS NOT AN EVEN PLAYING FIELD WHEREAS PURE TIME IS.
Balance has many different forms and I do believe that if a person has played the game before and gone through the grind they should be able to get advantages. What I dont agree to is being able to purchas with money items and levels that someone else may not be able to afford. If there is a world "cash" that people can "earn" that will alow them to bypass certain painful aspects of the game so be it, but not real world money. That's what causes embalance so don't say someone is just whining when they complain about someone being able to get an unfair advantage, because that's what it is, by being when they can spend a resource that others playing may have no chance of obtaining.
Comments
was thinking about this yesterday and today i find this articel..lol
this quest for balance to me is a quest for a boring game!! for me i dont need every class or profession to be balanced with each individualy. i prefer they have their own strengths and weaknesses that when combined make balanced gameplay. isnt the point of playing an mmorpg to play along with others? (i know sometimes its not possible) im also tired of everyone expecting everything be given to them equally. if someone has played more hours thus working harding to get something they deserve to have something more than the person who has played less time. life is not fair or balanced and no mmo should be either. for me i play to escape into a virtual world and thus i dont want everything balanced in my game. i prefer a virtual sandbox type world in my games but thats just me.
I think fallacy may be a wrong word for your title. A fallacy is when you deploy an incorrect argumentative tool that results in a false presumption, not a false presumption that leads to more false results.
In truth people care about balance. Imagine a game where you are leveling along and you are camped by someone two levels lower than you for four hours. Of course you want to be able to kill this guy, but the game isn't balanced. Some people go to the extreme about balance and want something that is equal (as opposed to balance).
What you may be describing is the forums crybabies who are upset that their Feral Druid can't beat someones Destro Lock 100% of the time.
By bringing in the extreme Pay2Win model you have opened a hailstorm. Pay2Win games are created imbalanced specifically so that you will spend money. A subscription game is created balanced and constantly updated and improved to further that balance.
Website: http://www.thegameguru.me / YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/users/thetroublmaker
Phil,
In one sense I agree with you. In another I very much disagree with you. You seem to have a very narrow definition of what an MMO is...
- You seem to think an MMO must be gear based, and that gear must provide you with a significant advantage over other players.
- You seem to think that an MMO must be Level/Advancement based, and that Level/Advancement must provide one with a significant advanatage over other players.
- You seem to think Character Skill must outweigh Player Skill in terms of how well you perform in combat.
I'll grant you that your assumptions are fairly representitive of the dirt typical cookie-cutter MMO's that most Developers seem to churn out these days but they are certainly not representitive of what an MMO must be nor is it even representitive of all the MMO's that are currently out there.
Take a look at WWII Online for an example (an MMO on mmorpg.com's game list) of an MMO that doesn't fit those assumptions very well.
It is entirely possible to design an MMO that has ZERO advancement, either in terms of gear or in terms of character levels. It won't be very popular with those gamers who are primarly of the "Achiever" type, but those are NOT the only type of gamer out there (even if they are probably the largest segment). For instance, very few gamers wanting to play an online baseball game/league would by much interested in "leveling up" thier shortstop to level 27 and obtaining a +3 purple fielders glove of awsomeness so they can increase thier throw accuracy. Games mean different things to different people.
I agree with you that seeking "balance" in the sense that alot of MMO players/Dev's seem to consider it is a fools errend. Balance does not exist in nature....some people are faster, stronger, smarter, taller, etc then others..... so expecting characters to be exactly the same/equal in all regards is just plain dumb (IMO). "Balance" to me in MMO/RPG terms simply means that no one character build/type outperforms others in ALL (or most) aspects of the game. That's it, and it's really not all that difficult to achieve. The problem that most MMO's today run into in that regards is that they have such narrow variety in game-play that it becomes difficult to differentiate areas of specialty. Almost none of them have any significant non-combat challanges.....and even in terms of combat there is really almost no varirety....all combat is pretty much the same with very minor varietions put in.
If you look at traditional pen n' paper DnD for example. It didn't really matter that the Thief couldn't do as much damage or take as much damage as the Warrior, because the Thiefs primary role wasn't to fight things. His role was recon..... to spot dangers before the party ran into them and to help the party avoid them (traps, enemies, etc)....to get the party into places that they couldn't otherwise get to or even know about....and to obtain items for them that they couldn't otherwise get. In a well designed scenerio, those things were just as important if not more so then anyones ability to swing a sword. Heck, even in terms of combat....when was the last time in an MMO that you ran into opponents that couldn't be hit with physical weapons and required spells to defeat....or even ones that took 3 times more damage from a holy spell then a mage spell?
The balance problem with most MMO's is that have enough variety in game-play or even combat to have room to emphasize different specialities and abilities. That's why there is so much angst about OP... because if you pretty much only have one thing to do....having significant differences in how well a particular character type does it becomes problematic.... if you have 100 different things to do...not really so much of a big deal with any given one of them.
This really isn't all that difficult to model though....just takes a bit of brains in game design. If, for example, we look at WWII-Online, tanks (the vehicle variety...not "tanks" in MMO terms) have really powerfull weapons and armor.....but stick them in dense forest or close urban terrain and they are absolutely dead meat without supporting infantry. The lowley rifleman with nothing but a bolt action firearm, a handfull of grenades and a cotton shirt between him and danger is just as important as the guy in the 10 ton steel monster...because he can do things the tanker can't. That's balance.
Finaly in terms of P2W, the reason why it is so offensive to people is that it goes against the core spirit of what most people percieve games to be all about....which is namely achievement is about what the player does on the field (or in the game) and a measure of the skills they bring to the game...... not about what they have OFF the field (like a bigger bank account). No one minds that people who pay extra get prefered seeting in a concert or a movie....because what people expect to get out of those experiences is very different. Maybe if the Pay2Win Developers stopped calling thier products "games" and called them Interactive Entertainment Experiences or something like that instead.... then we really wouldn't be bothered with P2W.... but the word "game" comes with a very specific set of expectations in most peoples mind.....and that usualy doesn't entail buying your way to advantadges or results.
Firstly for me in this thread is right off I got hit with yet another poster using abbreviations like a entitled DHMF
^ if you do not know what DHMF means it is because I like 30-40% of $%&#% on every gaming forum did not use abbreviatrion correctly. (any forum) (obviously we all know LoL and PvP)
The first time spell it out then put the abbreviation ( abb.) next to it like I just did.
DO not make everyone guess what MMO you refer to(or ANY abbrevfiation) like we all have time to memorize them all like luggage tags. after you spell it out then show the abbreviation, you are clear to proceed.
I am not a grammar major or grammar police, But having people know what you are saying seems pretty dang obvious, no need for education to have common sense.
As to the Original post....
Some games are balanced correctly in concept. So you fail. I really felt this article was the worst I have seen here.
PvE and balance? say what? Anyone who is whinning about unbalanced PvE, who cares?
PvP is where they simply need to have a balanced system, and hopefully that balance will not be 1on1 balance, or you end up with the monkies at blizzard changing the game for the worse every month.
Although Guild Wars seems a great system that in the bright exception to that rule. I hope the upcoming guild wars is better then the first as it was not appealing to me enough as and all around game.
Pay to win games are fine, let us please take all the pay to win people and lock them in their worlds so the rest of us can play a GAMe on even footing without them, everyone wins.
I hate the idea people escape into a game to get away from the horrible things going on in the world like 400 people in america having more money then the rest combined, only to have that scenario replay in the game. ( if you understand why the former is a nightmare, thank you)
I simply have no time for that or anyone would would want that.
Since the original poster said this...
"Now it’s time to gear up so you can do more challenging encounters to (wait for it)gear up more. It’s a vicious cycle that has devoured many who would not have it any other way; myself included."
I honestly have no intrest in anyting further he may have to say. Some people just think so backwards from my point of view, I wish them well, but elsewhere.
Tell that to the French at Agincourt
The thing about real life (or even alot of games outside of MMO's) is that there are very few unit/equipment types that are superior in ALL situations.
Heck even a Tiger Tank.....warp it into a world where there is no gas, no ammo and no spare parts available....and guys riding around on horseback with lances suddenly don't start to look so bad.
I honestly feel MMO's are like the rest of life...ruined by the less intelligent.
People like the Original poster (OP) are the other responsible party as to why MMO's suck so hard.
Anyone who embraces the mindless gear
aid
aidgear system is, and has been killing the entire genre. The OP reminds me in tone of all those people that argue against improving games.
It would not matter if we had a more seperated market,. Let the hamsters run in their wheels while we play a game of some creativity.
That is not the case however. The companies have been mostly fools in understanding gamers. So even the ones that could be awesome, stop way short to placate to my sister n law and soccer moms, and also the less intelligent.
Balance is just someone's perception of it in any game. I will agree there is no such thing. The rock, paper scissors method does not apply to any MMO that I know of either.
On the other hand, it depends on the game of course, but the pay-to-win games I have experienced, almost all give such an advantage to the payer that there really is no chance given to those that don't pay and it is a never ending cycle. As the game ages, you are forced to continue paying or rapidly fall to the bottom.
At least a game without pay-to-win items provides a far better chance for everyone.
Don't mix business with pleasure. The complaint about pay-to-win is mostly about the intrusion of the business model into the play model and the distortions it causes. There is a very real risk that the game will cease to be a game at all and more like a salesman constantly whispering in your ear.
Distortions to game balance are the first symptoms. It's disingenuous to suggest that there is no concept of game balance in MMOs when developers are constantly tweaking/nerfing to get the right feel in play.
The argument is flawed in so many levels. The article talks about the imbalance, not due to the game, but due to the player's play style, schedule, or habit. Those has nothing to do with the game.
The balance and fairness in an MMO is having equal access to ingame contents. Even if I'm behind gear-wise, if I have access to those items, then that is fair. The difficulty of finding a guild that will help me go through the old raids has nothing to do with the game's fairness or balance...that's a community issue.
The major balance issue is between PvE and PvP where gears of the same level or better can be attained thru either path. PvE want their Raid gears be better than the Arena gear, vice versa, so it requires attention for the sake of balance and fairness. Other than this, everything that the article talked about has something to do with the community and not the game.
Now about this so-called-"end game", to me there's no such thing, there's only "game over". When I ran out of things to do, it's game over. So in an MMO, the game is never over because there's a lot of things to do, often overwhelming, but it keeps me playing. I find a lot of players just simply stop playing because they reached the "end game", but that's ridiculous because the reason why it's a persistent live world is so that the game has no end. It's kind of silly seeing some guild mates leaving the game because they are either waiting for the next patch or xpac...but what about helping out other guild members?
I don't know but this "end game" raids brings out the worst of people but I can't really blame them since the game makes everyone run the same raid over and over and over just to get all the gear pieces. It gets old really fast trying to gear 25 players of your 25-man raid let alone trying to gear the rest of the guild members of 50-100. Those first 25 will not run that raid ever again and that's where the disconnect happens. But that's hardly the game's fault because those gears are designed for those who raid and not for those who cannot raid and just wanted to be carried thru.
My last tier gear in WoW was from Naxx and it took 3 months to get all pieces which by that time Ulduar was released. The guild fell apart after Ulduar because they are waiting for the ICC raid....so the rest of the guild has no one to run the Ulduar raid, thus the guild fell apart since those members seek help else where. But this is not the first time I witnessed this trend, it happened during Black Temple, Kara, and Sunwell. Each time I was left without raid gears from those raid. But the fact is, I never enjoy raiding, so pushing to get those gear is futile, because looking back at Naxx, those gears aren't worth it for the time invested....that is to me, at least.
So instaed, I focused on other aspect of the game, like lores, crafting, explorations, achievements, etc. Those things I enjoy and those things never end my game.
Ready for GW2!!!
This has to be one of the most mind boggling articles I have read at the site. I read it the first time, went to smoke, and came back to read it again.
The premise is that P2W, even though the author acknowledges that it messes up balance, is okay because MMOs are not balanced anyway. This argument has been made before. It is usually made with the "time investment" vs. "money investment" comparison. Some have more time, some have more money - etc, etc, etc (the argument usually devolves into people tossing flaming kittens at each other). ***As an aside, I've found it funny how many of these articles are basically trolling/baiting according to the Rules of Conduct.***
However, what totally blew my mind was the manner in which the author actually states where the balance is off.
It appears as if the author is complaining about new content being tiered more than anything. After all, he calls it a "vicious cycle that has devoured many" while talking about the tiered gear grind of endgame. So somehow, more content that requires you having completed previous content . . . is a bad thing . . . and this bad thing, creates an imbalance . . . which is not fair . . . because people that have completed more content than you, er, have completed more content than you . . . so if a company releases more and more new content . . . it is a bad thing...
...so P2W is fine.
WTF? Seriously? He's kidding right?
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
I think we got side tracked a little,this is more about end game than balance.
End game has nothing to do with balance,becuase in essence your game is over,that is why it would be called end game.I find it comical to see so many people worry about gear for a player that is already done,imo it is a waste of time.
YES this is a poorly designed game because i played FFXI for 8 years and you never worried or even cared about end game.In FFXI the entire game was a ride and if you were waiting for friends you could camp rare boss mobs while farming.The reality is that FFXI was not huge on gear most was all accesible and the rare stuff for the most part did not separate players from performing well in a group.
That is the difference between good design and poor ones,the poor ones leave players thinking about rushing to end game,becuase there is no other game worth caring about.FFXI it was about the group and balance NEVER matters in a group becuase you are working together.You could craft to attain better stats and in FFXI food mattered more than any other game.You could eat food to give yoruself a lot better accuracy,that would be much more important than say a better sword that never hits.
The actual end game in FFXI was a HUGE time sink,but it was a good thing because not many worried about it then.The class design was fun,grouping was fun and there was always tons to do if not grouping.The biggie was being able to further advance your player through new classes becuase FFXI was the first game to actually get class design right.Your player did not end at level cap,it continued thorugh sub classes,this gives your player tons more longevity and usefulness.
Bottom line is these other games need to worry about balance or what class should be nerfed because the design of the game is shallow not done well at all.Grouping games are the proper way to go ,no excuses ,you go the solo and raid or PVP route you ask for a poor community and selfishness and crying and drama ect ect.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
The OP has a very limited view and definition of what an MMO is.
Also, he is clearly speaking to a relatively small percentage of players who enjoy and embrace raiding and the gear-grind. Not a bad thing. But don't phrase it like its the be-all of MMO's.
So your argument about Pay2Win is invalid because its built on a very narrow and shakey foundation.
"Ehh, life already sucks, so why not have unprotected sex with that jaundiced hooker who has sores on her face?"
If the OP had stopped short of pay-to-win, I would have agreed.
What next? People buying their way into the olympics?
" Hai guiys I was too lazy to train the past couple of years so here's a hundred bucks for pole position".
People do buy their way into the Olympics. If you chart the cost per athlete in the Olympics, the athletes who received more funding in their training programs won more gold. It's the same way in professional sports.
Yes, I realize there is somebody out there putting the effort in, but the athletes and the teams that have more money win more often and on a more regular basis.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
This is moronic. Money does not equal time. The whole point of MMOs is to spend time.
YOU MADE A CHOICE TO SPEND TIME ON OTHER THINGS. HOW YOU SPEND YOUR TIME IS UP TO YOU. MONEY IS NOT AN EVEN RESOURCE LIKE TIME. SOME PEOPLE WORK FOR IT, SOME PEOPLE DONT, SOME PEOPLE ARE BORN CAPABLE OF TASKS WORTH MORE MONEY. TIME IS A LEVELING FACTOR THAT IS ESSENTIALLY EQUAL FOR ALL PEOPLE.
That is why time is what progression should be based on. Not money. I have money. Plenty of it to spend on games and pay2win. I also have time. More than most people. The argument that I want work to win over pay to win doesn't hold because I have the option of both.
Time is fair. Money is not.
"Time is fair. Money is not." - Because everyone has time, but not everyone has money? Or maybe it's because everyone has money, but not everyone has time? How is time any more fair than money? Some people have money, some people have time, some people have time and money and guess what, some people have no time and no money. Either sounds fair to me.
"This is moronic. Money does not equal time. The whole point of MMOs is to spend time." - Hah, this made me laugh. Technically the only reason MMOs or games are created at all is to obtain your money. How much time you spend playing really isn't important to the creator of the game. So essentially... the whole point of MMOs is to get your money or as you put it... to spend your money.
And if some people spend their time to obtain money, shouldn't they then be able to trade the money for loss time that could have been spent elsewhere? This isn't a game mechanic, this is a life mechanic. You can pay $20 and 40 minutes to get your oil changed or pay $65 and 15 minutes, or you can spend $10 and maybe an hour of your time doing it yourself. All these options work in the real world because when you start thinking about the things you do, and the time spent doing them, and the amount of money it costs for someone else to do it, then at some point it crosses a threshold and it makes more sense to pay than to do things yourself... heck thats what the whole service industry is based off it.
"They essentially want to say 'Correlation proves Causation' when it's just not true." - Sovrath
Another transparent attempt by this site to push ftp/ptw, what a shock. We get it, you have no integrity and you've sold out.
Way to completely go on a tangent and miss the obvious point.
This reminds me of the old George Carlin line "My stuff is stuff, your stuff is shit."
It is kind of funny how many Carlin quotes can be applied to MMOs...
Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?
I think people should be allowed to do anything they want. We haven't tried that for a while. Maybe this time it'll work.
Inside every cynical person, there is a disappointed idealist.
Not only do I not know what's going on, I wouldn't know what to do about it if I did.
People who say they don't care what people think are usually desperate to have people think they don't care what people think.
Some people see things that are and ask, Why? Some people dream of things that never were and ask, Why not? Some people have to go to work and don't have time for all that.
The reason I talk to myself is that I'm the only one whose answers I accept.
When someone is impatient and says, "I haven't got all day," I always wonder, How can that be? How can you not have all day?
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
Hehe, Carlin was a God among men. (metaphorically speaking before I get people yelling at me)
Way to completely go on a tangent and miss the obvious point.
If you get to use hyperbole, I get to go off on tangents.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
what part of some people have better capacity to get money dont you understand? so yes, you can trade money for time, BUT ITS NOT AN EVEN PLAYING FIELD WHEREAS PURE TIME IS.
Balance has many different forms and I do believe that if a person has played the game before and gone through the grind they should be able to get advantages. What I dont agree to is being able to purchas with money items and levels that someone else may not be able to afford. If there is a world "cash" that people can "earn" that will alow them to bypass certain painful aspects of the game so be it, but not real world money. That's what causes embalance so don't say someone is just whining when they complain about someone being able to get an unfair advantage, because that's what it is, by being when they can spend a resource that others playing may have no chance of obtaining.
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