And the grand daddy of them all, X-Com: MONTHS! Months I spent intercepting enemy UFOs, watching my funding dwindling from nations falling under the sway if the invaders, losing entire squads in "accidental" Blaster Launcher discharges inside the drop ship (ON THE SECOND TURN!) because an assault squaddie got puppeted by a grey, seeing that first spiky black alien and wondering how to deal with it, then learning that the new name for fear is "Chryssalid". The base incursions, hovertanks, crash recoveries, mutilated cattle, research, Psi Training, autopsies, terror missions -- this game had it all, wound up in a tight little turn-based strategy package. Nothing before or since has been as addicting is this gem.
But all that being said, I find that I can't recapture the magic by going back to these games any more. My expectations have changed. I'm not a total whore for visuals, but I do expect at least a moderate level of quality, and those old games just don't hold up anymore. The poor graphics become a distraction from the rest of the game, making enjoying them difficult. But I would seriously pay an arm and a leg to have a fully up-to-date version of X-Com developed, with all the same mechanics, just newer visuals. The sounds are still excellent and I wouldn't even bothering to touch them.
So nostalgia goggles? Yes and no.
Funny enough I recently played X-Com again and had just as much fun as when the game came out. I attribute it to the fact that I really do not care about graphics that much and I managed to clearly remember what annoyed me about the game so the bad stuff was not so jarring to me.
The nostalgia part really comes in if you start to forget the bad things about a game you loved. I have fond memories of my time playing SWG but I alos remember all the annoying things that ended up driving me from that game. On the otehr hand I tend to romanticize my time playing Earth and Beyond and seldom remember the things that used to drive me up the wall when I played it.
This.
SWG was seriously broken on release. CoH had maybe five Super builds that were really Super. Early WoW was plagued with difficulties, etc. The nostalgia googles can filter out the broken bits, the irritations, the design failures, etc
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
The nostalgia part really comes in if you start to forget the bad things about a game you loved. I have fond memories of my time playing SWG but I alos remember all the annoying things that ended up driving me from that game. On the otehr hand I tend to romanticize my time playing Earth and Beyond and seldom remember the things that used to drive me up the wall when I played it.
This.
SWG was seriously broken on release. CoH had maybe five Super builds that were really Super. Early WoW was plagued with difficulties, etc. The nostalgia googles can filter out the broken bits, the irritations, the design failures, etc
Not everybody experienced all issues. Not everybody took issue with certain things. Different people like different things. Something that somebody may have seen as a flaw in earlier games that has been fixed in subsequent games...could be the very thing that somebody enjoyed in earlier games and believe has been broken by subsequent games.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
I still do play every year or so games like Fallout 1& 2, Baldur's Gate, Arcanum, etc <-- even though they do have ancient mechanics, really dated graphics and are in some ways very limited.
On the other hand almost no new game can match them in dialogues, world complexity, amount of meaningful side quests and alot of small details that are incorporated into those games. Those games are NOT conveniant, not giving you everything on the platter (even in parts where they are really easy) and that's WHY I still go back and play them.
Why do I NOT play old mmorpg's like Ultima Online, EQ1 or FXI anymore?
One thing is their small active playerbase with huge majority of players beign very advanced characters BUT that's not what is most important.
What is most important is those games are NOT what they used to be. They were changed dramatically over the years. They also experienced casualizing, streamlinng, making more conveniant, importing alot mechanics from newer mmorpg's.
So many of them are sorry caricatures of their former themselves, beign an odd mix of old mechanics melded with new mechanics and tools they were not designed to cope with.
I do NOT like things like AH, quest trackers and quest markers, instance teleports from everywhere in the world, etc
It's not "nostalgia goggles" that are causing us to miss older games, or wish for the "good old days of MMO gaming". Games have become easier, more dungeon lobbies, rather than the worlds they used to be. Yes, the games were far from perfect, and flaws, irritatiions, bugs and other annoyances were part and parcel of the game. Even with those flaws, they were far better experience than the MMO's of today.
"If people loved the older titles as much as they remembered, you'd imagine they'd still be playing them - yet, we move on," -As VirusDancer alluded to, the games we loved of yesteryear ain't what they used to be. The games changed, not the players. I loved Everquest, it has flaws, annoyances, irritants, yet I had more fun there than any game since. The game underwent several changes, some small, some large. Some I didn't like, some I liked, and some I was ambivelnt about; but the game changed dramaticallly from what it was. The prgoression server, while a completely different game than it was originally is sitll leaps and bounds better than the new stuff out there. It is far easier now than it was, but I still found myself enjoying it. I logged my main back in on the regular server and was completely lost. The game has changed so much since I left, it was a completely different game. Alienating the existing fans to attempt to attract more and newer fans seems to be the order of the day for many of the old franchises. I've seen similar things occur with DAOC, UO, SWG, FFXI and perhaps some others.
As I mentioned, I loved Everquest, but it had it's flaws, I remember them well. The quests were next to impossible without spoilers..."bring me a [magic] item" you say..."what magic item"..."a rock". So, you knew you needed a magic rock, could be from anywhere. I thought the "new, improved character models" looked horrible compared to the orignal. There were some class balance issues. Though, in my opinion. in a PVE game, like EQ was; classes don't need to be balanced, just need a reason to exist. No instancing meant there was competition over limited resources. There were little solo combat opportunities for most classes. Sure some could solo, but it was far more efficient to find a group, which some people had trouble with. Travel was a big sticking point for many. I wasn't a porting class, but I made friends with porting classes, or even better, had them in my group. Failure hurt, reputation mattered.
Graphics have improved, gameplay has not. Things are easier now, most MMO's are on a rail. Characters do it all, soloing to max level quickly and easily seems to be the rule rather than the exception. Community is all but gone. Games have become over simplified, more linear and less challenging, seemingly to appeal to the generic person. I have played many of the newer games and had some fun for a bit, but they never held on to me for any length of time.
I do believe that some of the mechanics in older game were very good. However, modern games are better all around games. We tend to remember the good and forget the bad. Going back and trying any of those games now, you quickly realize how much modern games have progressed. That having been said, along the way to that refinement, some good features were lost, and some new problems arose.
I do believe that some of the mechanics in older game were very good. However, modern games are better all around games. We tend to remember the good and forget the bad. Going back and trying any of those games now, you quickly realize how much modern games have progressed. That having been said, along the way to that refinement, some good features were lost, and some new problems arose.
I see prettier graphics. I hear better music. I see more people in an area. I see more seamless zones.
Basically, I see technological advancements...that are great.
But the games themselves? I find it funny that I find less immersion in modern MMORPGs than I did back in text based singleplayer games...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
We always come upon these threads, where you get at least a couple people reminiscing about the games of old, how things were when the first picked up a game like Ultima Online, or Neverwinter nights.
Funny you mention those two games. Just bought Ultima Online for the first time after a 2 week trial totaling 30 hours (the most I've played an MMO in a long time), and was running through Neverwinter Nights 2 campaign's with a friend on Steam.
I can say a lot of it is people looking back seeing better than what was there, but many old classics became popular for a reason, and that reason still stands in a lot of the cases.
I see prettier graphics. I hear better music. I see more people in an area. I see more seamless zones.
Basically, I see technological advancements...that are great.
But the games themselves? I find it funny that I find less immersion in modern MMORPGs than I did back in text based singleplayer games...
A lot that has to do with the design mechanics of quest hubs, focusing all players on a developer determined path of advancement, everyone sharing the same story, etc. As well as the fact that developers are so quick to give away information on all of a games systems now, where before a lot was left to mystery. The underlying mechanics are so well known and exposed now, that it's hard to be immersed. I also can't stand the fact that every game nowaday feels like the last game with a new skin.
However, if you go back to the old games (which I have done quite a bit), you get shocked by all the little improvements that you were aware of when they happened but that you had forgotten over time.
For example, when SWG announced theri imminent cancellation, I got nostalgic and used an emulator for one of the pre-CU versions just to experience it again. Of course the first thing that popped out was, "I'm in the world, what do I do now?". Even for someone who played it before, I found myself struggling to figure it out. Then going into combat and only having an Auto-Attack ability for starters. The UI was extremely dated.
Everquest, same thing. I tried it when they had the welcome back trial after the hacking issues. I gave it a whirl. The UI was bad and unresponsive. Despite them making numerous changes to make it more casual friendly, the fights still lasted forever, and the downtime was still bad even with the new rest system. I wandered around for a while looking at the new zones, then I died, and found myself back in the Plane of Knowledge naked. Time for a naked corpse run, except I had no clue where I even was before I died.
Most recently I tried Dark Age of Camelot. As with the others, the UI clearly showed signs of age. Other things that stood out where the quest journal really just being a text description. The fact that you didn't have any of your abilities on your action bar. etc.
That's not in any way trashing those games. I loved each of those games during it's time. I certainly have nostalgic memories of them, and I also thnk that each of those games had features that they did right and other games since them have missed. But those games were also pioneers. They blazed trails that other games have learned from and refined. As much as many of us complain about the quest grind, the mindless quests, repetitive hubs, etc. The reality is that the alternative to that was simply killing mobs for experience in those previous games. The quest grind was an improvement over that. Of course it introduced its own problems, which are fresher in our minds. The increased soloability in modern games have killed many of the social aspects that older games excelled at, but they have also given the games a broader market appeal by catering to a larger casual market.
For modern games, I think they are expected to have the improvements to things like UI, graphics, etc. They don't have to cater so much to casual fans, but there is also nothing wrong with doing so. What I think they definitely should do is take a look at the older titles though and the things they did right that modern games are lacking, and then look to find a way reproduce those same benefits, as well.
I agree what you are saying is true. However, I believe that the nostalgia effect is still something that affects most people. that doesn't say that there isn't the 'this isn't like the game used to be..' I don't think they are mutually exclusive.
I apologize if my post came off as being aggressive toward you. It was not meant to be. I did not think you were treating it like they were exclusive. I was just using that snippet of your post to further my argument that people should not be dismissive of the simple fact that in most cases, the games have actually changed. It's not just emotion.
I have a great deal of nostalgia about playing my Bothan Smuggler in SWG... I ran a store, had the separate house, and lived in a player built town with the rest of my "guild" as well as some other folks our "guild" had made friends with. I customized the vendors - both appearance and dialogue. The store was decorated with goods, making it look like you might actually be at a store. The house was decorated like an actual house might be decorated. I made my trips to my harvesters, I did my crafting, etc, etc. Yes, there is emotion involved in that...
...but the game also changed and I do not know of any game out there that I can do that...
...so I get a little ticked when people dismiss that changes have taken place.
Again, it was not something I was accusing you of doing... was just using your snippet there.
No worries, I didn't take any offense or think it was aggressive. I was trying to tie both our ideas into a two complimentary ideas.
Its not just about not remembering the bad stuff its more about saying that the bad stuff made the games (or life as in the sketch) better and was the reasons that they played those games ie.. 40 minute walks between cities, really harsh death penalties, 10 minutes to kill one mob, clicking on a dummy for 2 hrs to skill up to kill 1 Rat outside the starter city, being PK'd constantly made you better and a real player, spending an hour looking for a quest objective, 70 man raids that took 12 hrs to complete, spawn camping for days, YES FOR DAYS. Many people on this forum have wrapped the bad with the good to make it all good but if you transported them back to those things they'd get a pretty nasty shock....after the 10th time they have to walk that 40 minute journey, spending multiple hours just looking for the quest objective, spending silly hours LFG'ing in chat before finding a group, spamming chat WTS Uber sword of the four yorkshiremen for two hours. There are many things that have been lost in today's games but on the whole MMO's and games have evolved for the better you just need to burst that nostalgia bubble.
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
@JC-Smith, things like the UI - I would have included with the technological advances. They were made available by technological advances, etc. Still though, I find some of them not to be very intuitive. Then we get into things like addons, and the game screen beginning to look more like a flight sim than anything else - meh.
As an aside, that reminds me of the request that I saw several times from folks over in EVE for multiple monitor support so that the UI could be placed on a separate monitor. I always thought EVE would be extremely cool with the "game" on the main monitor and the UI over on a 7-15" monitor.
I figured some of the things might be a preference item though. I do not mind logging into a game where I do not have a predefined path - if faced with a "what to do scenario", I take that as an opportunity to start exploring. I do not mind starting out with just an auto-attack - I'm new, I should not be able to flip out like a Ninja Jedi. I'm a fan of there actually being things such as encumbrance, fatigue, wounds, etc . . . so downtime is not an issue for me. I will say that the naked corpse runs where I had been dorking around and not paying attention to where I had gone...yeah...yeah...no, those were totally a bitch, lol.
For me, I tend not to look at past games with blinders. I've always been somewhat critical with games, overly critical on things that I really hate. I was just out having a smoke while thinking about some of the games I really loved and missed...and it was not too hard to come up with several things I did not like.
To an extent, with what you last said, that is kind of where that frustration and even a certain amount of despair exist with the current MMORPGs. Outside of possible preferences one might have on gameplay, so many of those past issues I have would have been corrected by advances in technology. In the end, it has kind of been a cruel joke - here is all the technology that can fix your old games . . . but nah, we're not going to do that - we're going to make something else. /tired_facepalm
Imagine those old games with better graphics, better GUIs, better sound, larger worlds, greater realism, etc, etc, etc...and yep, could even add in some convenience for those that wanted ti... and we would have been working toward the Holy Grail...
...instead we have...meh.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Everquest, same thing. I tried it when they had the welcome back trial after the hacking issues. I gave it a whirl. The UI was bad and unresponsive. Despite them making numerous changes to make it more casual friendly, the fights still lasted forever, and the downtime was still bad even with the new rest system. I wandered around for a while looking at the new zones, then I died, and found myself back in the Plane of Knowledge naked. Time for a naked corpse run, except I had no clue where I even was before I died.
Most recently I tried Dark Age of Camelot. As with the others, the UI clearly showed signs of age. Other things that stood out where the quest journal really just being a text description. The fact that you didn't have any of your abilities on your action bar. etc.
That's not in any way trashing those games. I loved each of those games during it's time. I certainly have nostalgic memories of them, and I also thnk that each of those games had features that they did right and other games since them have missed. But those games were also pioneers. They blazed trails that other games have learned from and refined. As much as many of us complain about the quest grind, the mindless quests, repetitive hubs, etc. The reality is that the alternative to that was simply killing mobs for experience in those previous games. The quest grind was an improvement over that. Of course it introduced its own problems, which are fresher in our minds. The increased soloability in modern games have killed many of the social aspects that older games excelled at, but they have also given the games a broader market appeal by catering to a larger casual market.
For modern games, I think they are expected to have the improvements to things like UI, graphics, etc. They don't have to cater so much to casual fans, but there is also nothing wrong with doing so. What I think they definitely should do is take a look at the older titles though and the things they did right that modern games are lacking, and then look to find a way reproduce those same benefits, as well.
I think EQ's UI is my favorite to this date. While I use a modded UI in EQ, it is mostly just a reskin, I like the fact that there are limitations. Picking and choosing what spells to memorize for given situations is part of the fun for me. Plus it "felt more solid" than the UI's in newer games. I logged in a few minutes ago and didn't notice it being "unresponsive". . I liked the limitations of EQ's UI. No addons to manage aggro, heals, etc. No "gear score", not having hotbars full of every spell/skill you ever learned, all up at once.
EQ is a group oriented game, fights do last a long time. Single mobs are tough. I miss that, I get bored killing 3-5-10 mobs at a time, with little to no risk. EQ was what you made of it. Many people sat in outdoor zones, pulling the same mobs over and over again, complaining about the "grind". I liked "doing dungeons", it didn't have to be for gear or experience in particular, though we did try to be as efficient as possible. The downtime was important too, mana/health/aggro management is part of what you have manage.. Trying to solo in EQ really wasn't very efficient, though some classes could do it. . Grouping negated much of the downtime, with some exceptions after tough fights or mistakes. Plus, the "downtime" gave us a chance to talk to each other in the group. If I didn't want to socialize at all, I would play a single player game or do solo activities. There are no more naked corpse runs in EQ, which I miss to some degree. You knew who your friends were when it came time to try to get your stuff back. I will admit that I do like spawning with all my gear back.
I think EQ had plenty of room for improvement, but the graphics weren't bad. I liked how movement was tight and responsiveness of the game. EQ had a nice, wide Field of View, small character models which didn't fill the screen. I could see what was going on around me.Newer games seem to be a 3d tech demo, with a huge Player character models filling 3/4 of the screen, with a narrow FoV to help with performance. Head bob and shaky cam effects are just more silliness I don't care for. I would like better looking environments and character models, but I don't want a tech demo. Some of the lighting and other thigns seem to be stuck on, just because the game engine supports it. I hate "rubbery" movement in games, and I notice it immediately. Unfortunately, this has been a problem in both games old and new.
I'm playing EQ on the progression server currently and have played on an emulator. While there is much that I wold change, I think I would keep many of the things people complained about.. A perfect game for me would pull the combat, dungeon crawls and raids from EQ, and much of the non combat activitiies and "stuff" from UO. UO had so much to do, you could build a boat, go hunt treasure, tame a mount, build a house, write a book, and many other activites. I have no problem having most of the combat actvities being group oriented,as long as there are robust solo activites as well.
I don't think you trashed any of the old games, I just disagree that newer games have improved on mechanics, UI, and gameplay in all cases. I don't like using descriptions such as "hard core", "theme park", "casual", "sandbox" etc. as I find subjective and not always cleary defined. AAA titles all seem to be targeting the same market now days. Everytime I start a new game, I see many disappointed EQ vets that had hoped to find some of the same game play from EQ. I miss the challenge and community that EQ offered. Plus that midi music from EQ was awesome, I kind hate the fact they "updated" it and the original soundtracks are gone.
I found poor experiences in pretty much every MMORPG I ever played.
^
I think that the primary difference is that most of those bad experiences got hidden by New Game Shiny, and are much more noticeable through the eyes of Old and Jaded.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
We always come upon these threads, where you get at least a couple people reminiscing about the games of old, how things were when the first picked up a game like Ultima Online, or Neverwinter nights.
They speak as if gamings best years are behind them. I remember when I first got into the "mmo" scene with phantasy star online on the dreamcast, but didn't really get into MMOs in a hardcore fashion until CoH hit (and SWG). But on return to CoH, I've realized exactly how far MMO's have progressed, even if some mechanics are similar, its not the same.
If people loved the older titles as much as they remembered, you'd imagine they'd still be playing them - yet, we move on, and its rare to see a resurgence of retro gaming though we've seen it in the past with rereleases of TLOZ Ocarina of Time, or the upcoming Halo rerelease.
But for the wide majority, I have to take the idea that everything was better "back in the day" simply as a case of Nostalgia Goggles. Everything seemed so much better back then because it was new, or at least new to you. A lot of these upcoming games (including just released games) are fantastic games. I've grown up playing games all my life, and I refuse to believe the genre's (and most developers) best days are behind them. Especially with the amazing show we've seen with current releases.
Were games really that much better 10 years ago? Or have some people just glued their nostalgia goggles on and can't seem to remove them?
Were games really that much better years ago?
I don't really know, I don't play games. I play MMORPGS. There is a difference.
Now that we got that straight, I will share my opinion... note I said opinion...
Were MMORPGs better as far as features, graphics, gameplay? No they weren't better. The older MMORPG's had many bugs and issues. We Players dealt with them. We Players complained. Many advances have been made.
Were MMORPG's better as far as the virtual world of the MMORPG? Yes by far better in all respects a long as graphics quality is left out of the equation.
Are there now more attempts to get money out of us Players than there used to be? Is playing a MMO now like taking a walk thru a Flea Market? Are we Players getting harassed much more now to "Buy NOW" and "You need this beautiful cosmetic armor"?
Yes, Yes, and YES. Very Irratating.
Were MMORPG's Communities better back then?
No the communities were different. Please hear me out on this.... The Geeks and Nerds were mostly who played and Geeks and Nerds have a much different way of interacting with other Players than "Cool Kids" do. Sorry but that's the truth of it. We are all Individuals yes, but we also have our "Niche", our "Place" or "role" in society so to speak and now that the majority of Players are not Geeks and Nerds MMORPG Communities are very different than they used to be in my opinion. I will not say it's worse or better, just different.
So change has taken place, change that I would rather NOT to have seen happen. It's not all about "rose colored nostalgia glasses". It's about disagreeing with the changes that have taken place in the MMORPG Genre and it's Industry to Include changes in WHO controls most MMOs now (It's not the Devs and it should be).
If the MMORPG Genre was back then what it is now, I would not have started playing MMORPGs.
It's true, but it's better to remember the older games as great. DAoC, probably my favorite MMO of all time (FFXI close second), I like to remember as playing in the level 48+ out in the frontier defending my Midgard Pride and trolling (literally I was a Troll hehe) the enemy territories bashing little hippy Keens in the head. But if you want to get down to it, DAoC had alot of flaws. First and formost, the UI. Granted for being that old, we're lucky it had a UI at all, but I can remember when you actually had to type /quit or /camp to leave the game, no exit menu or anything lol.
Then there's the ungodly amount of time it took to get to 48+. This is good and bad in a way. I've always thought of MMOs in the sense that the journey is more important than the destination, but did level 40-50 really have to take a month for even the hardestcore (yay new word lol) player.
FFXI and FFXIV are probably the best to show the Nostalgia goggles. They are very similar to each other, heck even the races resemble each other, and if it wasn't for the missing Galka tails, I'd say an outright copy. FFXIV is alot faster paced and leveling is alot easier, however you play the games the same way. The Guildleves really aren't that great, so you get into a party, like FFXI, and go kill a billion monsters to level (like FFXI also). Really the only big difference is that there's no sense of a Nation War and there are no jobs to unlock (which i think they plan on adding in the future). Now some might say FFXIV had a much worse start than FFXI, and that's true, but FFXI had some problems at launch too.
True sotry but who gives a shit, so has everyone else. that's part of the problem. Find people that say "I've been playing MMOs for a week". They are few and far between. The genre has no new blood. Were MMOs better 12 years ago? Yes, they were, for me. It was all new and adventerous. Now its all a scam and a money grab, grind and time sinks. It was then too I just didnt know it. I sucked back then, I just didnt know it. Running around with my blue lv 12 shoulder pad, green level 15 pants, 23 white chest. I was a noob of the noobiest order and hell it was so much fun.
Make me a noob again though and your game sucks. Its unplayable. I can't roll the content in 3 weeks. I'm a Monday morning Dev. I miss you noob free2play, with or without the goggles.
Oh and FTR- I am free to play. I have the time to play. I have the money to play. Your game should not be free to play because if its free you are working at Denny's to pay rent. I have an account exclusive to online entertainment. Since I stopped playing EVE it has gotten very fat. NOBODY wants my damn Money!!! I'm not ready to go back to EVE, stop making cheap shit for free. Make GOOD games, I'm still free2play!
It's true, but it's better to remember the older games as great. DAoC, probably my favorite MMO of all time (FFXI close second), I like to remember as playing in the level 48+ out in the frontier defending my Midgard Pride and trolling (literally I was a Troll hehe) the enemy territories bashing little hippy Keens in the head. But if you want to get down to it, DAoC had alot of flaws. First and formost, the UI. Granted for being that old, we're lucky it had a UI at all, but I can remember when you actually had to type /quit or /camp to leave the game, no exit menu or anything lol.
Then there's the ungodly amount of time it took to get to 48+. This is good and bad in a way. I've always thought of MMOs in the sense that the journey is more important than the destination, but did level 40-50 really have to take a month for even the hardestcore (yay new word lol) player.
FFXI and FFXIV are probably the best to show the Nostalgia goggles. They are very similar to each other, heck even the races resemble each other, and if it wasn't for the missing Galka tails, I'd say an outright copy. FFXIV is alot faster paced and leveling is alot easier, however you play the games the same way. The Guildleves really aren't that great, so you get into a party, like FFXI, and go kill a billion monsters to level (like FFXI also). Really the only big difference is that there's no sense of a Nation War and there are no jobs to unlock (which i think they plan on adding in the future). Now some might say FFXIV had a much worse start than FFXI, and that's true, but FFXI had some problems at launch too.
I didn't care for the UI in FFXI, however, it was leaps and bounds better than the UI of FFXIV. I played FFXI some and enjoyed it, but I did have a group of people from EQ that went to FFXI together. It was horrible in many respects. From setting up an account, figuring out the UI, to the different sites you had to log in, not having the ability to select which server to play on, which was a problem since a group of us came to FFXI together. FFXI seemed more grindy than other games I had played. Latency was a real problem and mobs could be killed before you even saw them and a corpse would "spawn" in front of you. It also had alot to offer, alot of depth and detail that is absent from newer games. Travelling at lower levels in FFXI, felt like an accomplishment. The boat rides were rather intersting as well. I never did figure out what was breaking my broom handle fishing pole on the boat. Seeing the spring blossoms on the cherry trees when coming into town, just made it feel alive. There was alot I didn't like about FFXI, but there was alot to like as well. FFXI was and is a far superior product to FFIV.
I honestly don't remember the UI in DAoC. I must have figured out and adapted to it ok. I was in Beta for it, but I don't recall much about it. I did play at release. I wasn't too impressed with the dungeons, but had some memorable moments in RvR. I also remember the giants being truly giant. I also remember falling through the world repeatedly.
I don't think that anyone is denying that the older games had problems, they absolutely did, but they also had far more depth and a better sense of community than the newer games. I think that is what many of the "nostalgia people" are looking for. The games that had the gameplay and depth of the older games, with the refinement and advances that come with newer games.
summers were warmer and winters cold and snowy. People talked to neighbours and left front doors unlocked *rolls eyes*
Good analogy, most of those are actually true in real life, (well, global warming certainly has made winters warmer, along with summers) same thing for MMORPG's.
The gameplay mechanics from older MMO's was considerably different that the current crop of "games" delivers today. This is a fact, and has nothing to do with nostalgia.
And no, we can't go play those old games, they've all largely been changed too much from what made them great in the first place, incorporating many modern game features that ruined them in the process. (Someone said they've all experienced their own version of the NGE and its quite true)
Few people ever say that the older games were without flaws, and many modern MMO's have eliminated those flaws which is a great thing.
But what got discarded along the way in terms of gameplay mechanics in order to accomodate a broader and more diverse playerbase is what's sorely missed which has little to do with nostalgia.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
In many cases, it is nostalgia goggles, myself included. But when I realistically look back at something like SWG, I remember the good times and fun, but I also remember the lack of content, the bugs never being fixed, etc.
Some games though, never lose their appeal to me. A prime example would be Galaga. I have played that game since I was 10. I don't play it all the time, but there is just something satisfying in beating your own, or your friends high score.
Many people are completely delusional about that game, and what it boils down to - They exhausted themselves with it. When Burning Crusade had been out for a while, people started talking about Vanilla servers and how stupid Outland was. When WotLK came out, it was BC that was actually good, and WOTLK was dumb because everything was too easy, and they had made too much quest content and not enough end game. Then Cata comes out, and people wish for the WOTLK days, and BC days and pre-BC days.
No. Had WoW launched in 2004 in the state as Cataclysm it would have had no barring in my opinion. What it comes down to is that when you exhaust yourself with a game for many years, eventually you grow tired of it. This is logical in games like Half-Life 2 and Skyrim, because eventually you have completed what you want in those games. In WoW you keep paying monthly and you get new content.
Somehow people are tricked into thinking that the experience will be new and unique. No. New content in itself has nothing to do with different. More of the same with new coat of paint describes it perfectly for themepark games.
People should stop blaming the expansions and patches. They mean a lot less than people realize. What is the de-factor, is that no matter how much you update the game or put in new content, you grow tired and bored of the same combat, same ai, same engine, same music, same interface.
The outcry for Cataclysm is a way for people to "blame" the game.
When in truth, people should be praising WoW for keeping them occupied for years. This is admirable. any game can be over played if spent 600 days on. People should be realistic, and look at the real deal here. The make or break is not the things that people complain about on forums - celestian steeds, pandas or no 40 man raids. These are not the end-and-be-all.
If viewed in an objective light, Blizzard became better at everything as they developed WoW. They became better at quest, better at interfacing, better at designing bosses, better at dungeon layouts, better at balancing pvp. The only difference was that people were a lot more forgiven when everything was new and exciting.
In many cases, it is nostalgia goggles, myself included. But when I realistically look back at something like SWG, I remember the good times and fun, but I also remember the lack of content, the bugs never being fixed, etc.
Some games though, never lose their appeal to me. A prime example would be Galaga. I have played that game since I was 10. I don't play it all the time, but there is just something satisfying in beating your own, or your friends high score.
SWG is a great example. In nostalgia terms the world pvp never worked. Everyone always complained about the covert flagged pvp thing, and the lack of being able to turn your player city into a haven of war.
I clearly remember that 50% of the pistoleers skills in the marksman profession never worked. they actually didn't work. This was amazing. How this could stand for many months, and even years with having an entire class ruined by having attacks and abillities that literally didnt work when you pressed them.
Had this been in WoW, they would have hot fixed it the same day it went live. In that sense, games like WoW moved us forward. the quality and expectations for patches became higher. the bugfree nature of wow set new standards.
In SWG I remember the obscene lack of star wars music. I remember that they promised this all the way up to the point of the CU. From beta 2002 to an update in late 2006, they could not accomadate this.
I remember everyone being clones of each other in compsite armor, and how everyone lacked content to do. it was all just organized hunts for kills. quests were broken. most never worked. people just did random terminal runs, which sucked. you could hunt rancors or kryta dragons.
Yeah there were lots and lots and lots of stuff. But what was amazing how it was all outweighed by the community - of course until... they killed it in cantinas when they introduced holocron grinding. their incompetence had no bounds once Holocron and Q-3PO had left development. it was a complete farce, and to think that some of the producers are still working for lucas arts to day. Blackman for exmaple. why the hell did he get all those millions to make something so banal as the force unleashed? when they could have done a new jedi knight, a new x-wing or a great star wars RTS or perhaps KOTOR3?
Lucas Arts were once, one of the best developer/publishers in the world. they made some of the best adventure games imagineable. why did they fall so far?
I feel that the sun has set on what mmorpgs were supposed to be about. It was supposed to be adventure, exploration, excitment at the unknown. Playing with friends and taking down that big boss and getting the big payoff. Having stories to tell to people about your adventures.
Now, thanks to the "NOW! NOW!" generation, we have none of that. Everyone is level 10 within an hour of play. There is no death penalty. There's no exploration because all the maps are crafted towards the quests.
It used to be they made a huge map, then filled it with creatures, then made the quests around them. Now it seems they simply make the quests first, then dump the creatures in, and make the maps around that. You are led around by your nose from point to point to point and there's nothing in the empty spaces.
The casual market has destroyed the challenge of mmorpgs alltogether. They are now all boring themeparks that have no purpose other than to get to the endgame so you can complain about lack of content within two months and then move on the next mmo and do it again.
Wow showed that mmorpgs can be a commercial sucess, so it spawned new mmos that we wouldn't have seen. However wow's huge sucess dictated to other developers that they have to make it just like wow to make it work. So now everything plays like wow which is a horrible state for us to be in.
There are a few bright points. Eve online offers a unique expeience you can't find anywhere eles. GW2 appears to be breaking the mold on a lot of areas, but we won't know how good it is until it comes out.
I never thought I'd be saying this, but the one game that could save this genre from itself is a korean one. ArchAge. It appears to be both a themepark and a sandbox in certain areas. The visuals are outstanding and player built housing looks great. ArchAge might be our last best hope for peace in this market.
Everything else appears to be bland. The future looks bleak for us old timers. If I grew up in this generation I wouldn't notice how horrible mmos have become over the past seven years.
Yet another interesting topic! I do have to say that I respectfully (partially) disagree with you here. While there is such a thing as nostalgia, I think it's pretty obvious when it's happening. My first MMO was Ultima Online. To me, it was the greatest game ever. My second MMO was Everquest and that also is my second favorite MMO. As time passes with UO, the features that it had can't really be found in any decent MMO now. That whole sandbox system is what I came to love. When I played Mortal Online for the first time despite all the bad stuff, I had that really good feeling again for a while. However, it was unplayable. I wouldn't call that nostalgia (since I had never played MO before).
So then, I go back to Ultima Online today (maybe not EA). Do I still find it fun? Hell yes I do! I enjoy the system of being free to do with I want. Nostalgia part is pretty obvious here: The graphics, holding a halberd, gaining magery skill, seeing your house for the first time again. These are the nostalgia factors here. The non-nostalgia factors are: Having a game where you get to live in a world and the ability to do what you want. Skill up any skill you want without having to worry about what class you are. Having the social aspect of chatting with people by a bank, etc.
When I play Skyrim for example, I have that same great feeling when enjoying the freedom to do several things across an interesting world. Again, that's not nostalgia. I feel like this feeling of great features can be reproduced again in todays world! In terms of an MMO, there is much innovation yet to be had in regards to non-themepark features.
So the point i'm trying to make here is that some people like myself can clearly identify the difference between nostalgia and actual great gameplay features that are fun. When I returned to Everquest for the progression server, it was loads of fun. Again, the nostalgia was easily identified: Seeing that familiar item drop, getting that familiar spell at level X, seeing the lands as they used to be. However the non-nostalgia factor was: Having a game again where you can group with people and talk about stuff (not always related to the game). Working together to achieve a goal. Also not having to do quest chains to level up and having leveling actually make a huge difference. These were things that were fun to play again.
Disclaimer: This is not a troll post and is not here to promote any negative energy. Although this may be a criticism, it is not meant to offend anyone. If a moderator feels the post is inappropriate, please remove it immediately before it is subject to consideration for a warning. Thank you.
Comments
Funny enough I recently played X-Com again and had just as much fun as when the game came out. I attribute it to the fact that I really do not care about graphics that much and I managed to clearly remember what annoyed me about the game so the bad stuff was not so jarring to me.
This.
SWG was seriously broken on release. CoH had maybe five Super builds that were really Super. Early WoW was plagued with difficulties, etc. The nostalgia googles can filter out the broken bits, the irritations, the design failures, etc
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
Not everybody experienced all issues. Not everybody took issue with certain things. Different people like different things. Something that somebody may have seen as a flaw in earlier games that has been fixed in subsequent games...could be the very thing that somebody enjoyed in earlier games and believe has been broken by subsequent games.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
@ OP
I still do play every year or so games like Fallout 1& 2, Baldur's Gate, Arcanum, etc <-- even though they do have ancient mechanics, really dated graphics and are in some ways very limited.
On the other hand almost no new game can match them in dialogues, world complexity, amount of meaningful side quests and alot of small details that are incorporated into those games. Those games are NOT conveniant, not giving you everything on the platter (even in parts where they are really easy) and that's WHY I still go back and play them.
Why do I NOT play old mmorpg's like Ultima Online, EQ1 or FXI anymore?
One thing is their small active playerbase with huge majority of players beign very advanced characters BUT that's not what is most important.
What is most important is those games are NOT what they used to be. They were changed dramatically over the years. They also experienced casualizing, streamlinng, making more conveniant, importing alot mechanics from newer mmorpg's.
So many of them are sorry caricatures of their former themselves, beign an odd mix of old mechanics melded with new mechanics and tools they were not designed to cope with.
I do NOT like things like AH, quest trackers and quest markers, instance teleports from everywhere in the world, etc
It's not "nostalgia goggles" that are causing us to miss older games, or wish for the "good old days of MMO gaming". Games have become easier, more dungeon lobbies, rather than the worlds they used to be. Yes, the games were far from perfect, and flaws, irritatiions, bugs and other annoyances were part and parcel of the game. Even with those flaws, they were far better experience than the MMO's of today.
"If people loved the older titles as much as they remembered, you'd imagine they'd still be playing them - yet, we move on," -As VirusDancer alluded to, the games we loved of yesteryear ain't what they used to be. The games changed, not the players. I loved Everquest, it has flaws, annoyances, irritants, yet I had more fun there than any game since. The game underwent several changes, some small, some large. Some I didn't like, some I liked, and some I was ambivelnt about; but the game changed dramaticallly from what it was. The prgoression server, while a completely different game than it was originally is sitll leaps and bounds better than the new stuff out there. It is far easier now than it was, but I still found myself enjoying it. I logged my main back in on the regular server and was completely lost. The game has changed so much since I left, it was a completely different game. Alienating the existing fans to attempt to attract more and newer fans seems to be the order of the day for many of the old franchises. I've seen similar things occur with DAOC, UO, SWG, FFXI and perhaps some others.
As I mentioned, I loved Everquest, but it had it's flaws, I remember them well. The quests were next to impossible without spoilers..."bring me a [magic] item" you say..."what magic item"..."a rock". So, you knew you needed a magic rock, could be from anywhere. I thought the "new, improved character models" looked horrible compared to the orignal. There were some class balance issues. Though, in my opinion. in a PVE game, like EQ was; classes don't need to be balanced, just need a reason to exist. No instancing meant there was competition over limited resources. There were little solo combat opportunities for most classes. Sure some could solo, but it was far more efficient to find a group, which some people had trouble with. Travel was a big sticking point for many. I wasn't a porting class, but I made friends with porting classes, or even better, had them in my group. Failure hurt, reputation mattered.
Graphics have improved, gameplay has not. Things are easier now, most MMO's are on a rail. Characters do it all, soloing to max level quickly and easily seems to be the rule rather than the exception. Community is all but gone. Games have become over simplified, more linear and less challenging, seemingly to appeal to the generic person. I have played many of the newer games and had some fun for a bit, but they never held on to me for any length of time.
I do believe that some of the mechanics in older game were very good. However, modern games are better all around games. We tend to remember the good and forget the bad. Going back and trying any of those games now, you quickly realize how much modern games have progressed. That having been said, along the way to that refinement, some good features were lost, and some new problems arose.
https://www.therepopulation.com - Sci Fi Sandbox.
I see prettier graphics. I hear better music. I see more people in an area. I see more seamless zones.
Basically, I see technological advancements...that are great.
But the games themselves? I find it funny that I find less immersion in modern MMORPGs than I did back in text based singleplayer games...
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
Funny you mention those two games. Just bought Ultima Online for the first time after a 2 week trial totaling 30 hours (the most I've played an MMO in a long time), and was running through Neverwinter Nights 2 campaign's with a friend on Steam.
I can say a lot of it is people looking back seeing better than what was there, but many old classics became popular for a reason, and that reason still stands in a lot of the cases.
A lot that has to do with the design mechanics of quest hubs, focusing all players on a developer determined path of advancement, everyone sharing the same story, etc. As well as the fact that developers are so quick to give away information on all of a games systems now, where before a lot was left to mystery. The underlying mechanics are so well known and exposed now, that it's hard to be immersed. I also can't stand the fact that every game nowaday feels like the last game with a new skin.
However, if you go back to the old games (which I have done quite a bit), you get shocked by all the little improvements that you were aware of when they happened but that you had forgotten over time.
For example, when SWG announced theri imminent cancellation, I got nostalgic and used an emulator for one of the pre-CU versions just to experience it again. Of course the first thing that popped out was, "I'm in the world, what do I do now?". Even for someone who played it before, I found myself struggling to figure it out. Then going into combat and only having an Auto-Attack ability for starters. The UI was extremely dated.
Everquest, same thing. I tried it when they had the welcome back trial after the hacking issues. I gave it a whirl. The UI was bad and unresponsive. Despite them making numerous changes to make it more casual friendly, the fights still lasted forever, and the downtime was still bad even with the new rest system. I wandered around for a while looking at the new zones, then I died, and found myself back in the Plane of Knowledge naked. Time for a naked corpse run, except I had no clue where I even was before I died.
Most recently I tried Dark Age of Camelot. As with the others, the UI clearly showed signs of age. Other things that stood out where the quest journal really just being a text description. The fact that you didn't have any of your abilities on your action bar. etc.
That's not in any way trashing those games. I loved each of those games during it's time. I certainly have nostalgic memories of them, and I also thnk that each of those games had features that they did right and other games since them have missed. But those games were also pioneers. They blazed trails that other games have learned from and refined. As much as many of us complain about the quest grind, the mindless quests, repetitive hubs, etc. The reality is that the alternative to that was simply killing mobs for experience in those previous games. The quest grind was an improvement over that. Of course it introduced its own problems, which are fresher in our minds. The increased soloability in modern games have killed many of the social aspects that older games excelled at, but they have also given the games a broader market appeal by catering to a larger casual market.
For modern games, I think they are expected to have the improvements to things like UI, graphics, etc. They don't have to cater so much to casual fans, but there is also nothing wrong with doing so. What I think they definitely should do is take a look at the older titles though and the things they did right that modern games are lacking, and then look to find a way reproduce those same benefits, as well.
https://www.therepopulation.com - Sci Fi Sandbox.
No worries, I didn't take any offense or think it was aggressive. I was trying to tie both our ideas into a two complimentary ideas.
I self identify as a monkey.
Its old its been used many many time (by me) but it explains this phenomena perfectly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1a1wHxTyo
Its not just about not remembering the bad stuff its more about saying that the bad stuff made the games (or life as in the sketch) better and was the reasons that they played those games ie.. 40 minute walks between cities, really harsh death penalties, 10 minutes to kill one mob, clicking on a dummy for 2 hrs to skill up to kill 1 Rat outside the starter city, being PK'd constantly made you better and a real player, spending an hour looking for a quest objective, 70 man raids that took 12 hrs to complete, spawn camping for days, YES FOR DAYS. Many people on this forum have wrapped the bad with the good to make it all good but if you transported them back to those things they'd get a pretty nasty shock....after the 10th time they have to walk that 40 minute journey, spending multiple hours just looking for the quest objective, spending silly hours LFG'ing in chat before finding a group, spamming chat WTS Uber sword of the four yorkshiremen for two hours. There are many things that have been lost in today's games but on the whole MMO's and games have evolved for the better you just need to burst that nostalgia bubble.
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
@JC-Smith, things like the UI - I would have included with the technological advances. They were made available by technological advances, etc. Still though, I find some of them not to be very intuitive. Then we get into things like addons, and the game screen beginning to look more like a flight sim than anything else - meh.
As an aside, that reminds me of the request that I saw several times from folks over in EVE for multiple monitor support so that the UI could be placed on a separate monitor. I always thought EVE would be extremely cool with the "game" on the main monitor and the UI over on a 7-15" monitor.
I figured some of the things might be a preference item though. I do not mind logging into a game where I do not have a predefined path - if faced with a "what to do scenario", I take that as an opportunity to start exploring. I do not mind starting out with just an auto-attack - I'm new, I should not be able to flip out like a Ninja Jedi. I'm a fan of there actually being things such as encumbrance, fatigue, wounds, etc . . . so downtime is not an issue for me. I will say that the naked corpse runs where I had been dorking around and not paying attention to where I had gone...yeah...yeah...no, those were totally a bitch, lol.
For me, I tend not to look at past games with blinders. I've always been somewhat critical with games, overly critical on things that I really hate. I was just out having a smoke while thinking about some of the games I really loved and missed...and it was not too hard to come up with several things I did not like.
To an extent, with what you last said, that is kind of where that frustration and even a certain amount of despair exist with the current MMORPGs. Outside of possible preferences one might have on gameplay, so many of those past issues I have would have been corrected by advances in technology. In the end, it has kind of been a cruel joke - here is all the technology that can fix your old games . . . but nah, we're not going to do that - we're going to make something else. /tired_facepalm
Imagine those old games with better graphics, better GUIs, better sound, larger worlds, greater realism, etc, etc, etc...and yep, could even add in some convenience for those that wanted ti... and we would have been working toward the Holy Grail...
...instead we have...meh.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
I think EQ's UI is my favorite to this date. While I use a modded UI in EQ, it is mostly just a reskin, I like the fact that there are limitations. Picking and choosing what spells to memorize for given situations is part of the fun for me. Plus it "felt more solid" than the UI's in newer games. I logged in a few minutes ago and didn't notice it being "unresponsive". . I liked the limitations of EQ's UI. No addons to manage aggro, heals, etc. No "gear score", not having hotbars full of every spell/skill you ever learned, all up at once.
EQ is a group oriented game, fights do last a long time. Single mobs are tough. I miss that, I get bored killing 3-5-10 mobs at a time, with little to no risk. EQ was what you made of it. Many people sat in outdoor zones, pulling the same mobs over and over again, complaining about the "grind". I liked "doing dungeons", it didn't have to be for gear or experience in particular, though we did try to be as efficient as possible. The downtime was important too, mana/health/aggro management is part of what you have manage.. Trying to solo in EQ really wasn't very efficient, though some classes could do it. . Grouping negated much of the downtime, with some exceptions after tough fights or mistakes. Plus, the "downtime" gave us a chance to talk to each other in the group. If I didn't want to socialize at all, I would play a single player game or do solo activities. There are no more naked corpse runs in EQ, which I miss to some degree. You knew who your friends were when it came time to try to get your stuff back. I will admit that I do like spawning with all my gear back.
I think EQ had plenty of room for improvement, but the graphics weren't bad. I liked how movement was tight and responsiveness of the game. EQ had a nice, wide Field of View, small character models which didn't fill the screen. I could see what was going on around me.Newer games seem to be a 3d tech demo, with a huge Player character models filling 3/4 of the screen, with a narrow FoV to help with performance. Head bob and shaky cam effects are just more silliness I don't care for. I would like better looking environments and character models, but I don't want a tech demo. Some of the lighting and other thigns seem to be stuck on, just because the game engine supports it. I hate "rubbery" movement in games, and I notice it immediately. Unfortunately, this has been a problem in both games old and new.
I'm playing EQ on the progression server currently and have played on an emulator. While there is much that I wold change, I think I would keep many of the things people complained about.. A perfect game for me would pull the combat, dungeon crawls and raids from EQ, and much of the non combat activitiies and "stuff" from UO. UO had so much to do, you could build a boat, go hunt treasure, tame a mount, build a house, write a book, and many other activites. I have no problem having most of the combat actvities being group oriented,as long as there are robust solo activites as well.
I don't think you trashed any of the old games, I just disagree that newer games have improved on mechanics, UI, and gameplay in all cases. I don't like using descriptions such as "hard core", "theme park", "casual", "sandbox" etc. as I find subjective and not always cleary defined. AAA titles all seem to be targeting the same market now days. Everytime I start a new game, I see many disappointed EQ vets that had hoped to find some of the same game play from EQ. I miss the challenge and community that EQ offered. Plus that midi music from EQ was awesome, I kind hate the fact they "updated" it and the original soundtracks are gone.
^
I think that the primary difference is that most of those bad experiences got hidden by New Game Shiny, and are much more noticeable through the eyes of Old and Jaded.
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Were games really that much better years ago?
I don't really know, I don't play games. I play MMORPGS. There is a difference.
Now that we got that straight, I will share my opinion... note I said opinion...
Were MMORPGs better as far as features, graphics, gameplay? No they weren't better. The older MMORPG's had many bugs and issues. We Players dealt with them. We Players complained. Many advances have been made.
Were MMORPG's better as far as the virtual world of the MMORPG? Yes by far better in all respects a long as graphics quality is left out of the equation.
Are there now more attempts to get money out of us Players than there used to be? Is playing a MMO now like taking a walk thru a Flea Market? Are we Players getting harassed much more now to "Buy NOW" and "You need this beautiful cosmetic armor"?
Yes, Yes, and YES. Very Irratating.
Were MMORPG's Communities better back then?
No the communities were different. Please hear me out on this.... The Geeks and Nerds were mostly who played and Geeks and Nerds have a much different way of interacting with other Players than "Cool Kids" do. Sorry but that's the truth of it. We are all Individuals yes, but we also have our "Niche", our "Place" or "role" in society so to speak and now that the majority of Players are not Geeks and Nerds MMORPG Communities are very different than they used to be in my opinion. I will not say it's worse or better, just different.
So change has taken place, change that I would rather NOT to have seen happen. It's not all about "rose colored nostalgia glasses". It's about disagreeing with the changes that have taken place in the MMORPG Genre and it's Industry to Include changes in WHO controls most MMOs now (It's not the Devs and it should be).
If the MMORPG Genre was back then what it is now, I would not have started playing MMORPGs.
It's true, but it's better to remember the older games as great. DAoC, probably my favorite MMO of all time (FFXI close second), I like to remember as playing in the level 48+ out in the frontier defending my Midgard Pride and trolling (literally I was a Troll hehe) the enemy territories bashing little hippy Keens in the head. But if you want to get down to it, DAoC had alot of flaws. First and formost, the UI. Granted for being that old, we're lucky it had a UI at all, but I can remember when you actually had to type /quit or /camp to leave the game, no exit menu or anything lol.
Then there's the ungodly amount of time it took to get to 48+. This is good and bad in a way. I've always thought of MMOs in the sense that the journey is more important than the destination, but did level 40-50 really have to take a month for even the hardestcore (yay new word lol) player.
FFXI and FFXIV are probably the best to show the Nostalgia goggles. They are very similar to each other, heck even the races resemble each other, and if it wasn't for the missing Galka tails, I'd say an outright copy. FFXIV is alot faster paced and leveling is alot easier, however you play the games the same way. The Guildleves really aren't that great, so you get into a party, like FFXI, and go kill a billion monsters to level (like FFXI also). Really the only big difference is that there's no sense of a Nation War and there are no jobs to unlock (which i think they plan on adding in the future). Now some might say FFXIV had a much worse start than FFXI, and that's true, but FFXI had some problems at launch too.
summers were warmer and winters cold and snowy. People talked to neighbours and left front doors unlocked *rolls eyes*
"I've been playing MMOs for 12 years"
True sotry but who gives a shit, so has everyone else. that's part of the problem. Find people that say "I've been playing MMOs for a week". They are few and far between. The genre has no new blood. Were MMOs better 12 years ago? Yes, they were, for me. It was all new and adventerous. Now its all a scam and a money grab, grind and time sinks. It was then too I just didnt know it. I sucked back then, I just didnt know it. Running around with my blue lv 12 shoulder pad, green level 15 pants, 23 white chest. I was a noob of the noobiest order and hell it was so much fun.
Make me a noob again though and your game sucks. Its unplayable. I can't roll the content in 3 weeks. I'm a Monday morning Dev. I miss you noob free2play, with or without the goggles.
Oh and FTR- I am free to play. I have the time to play. I have the money to play. Your game should not be free to play because if its free you are working at Denny's to pay rent. I have an account exclusive to online entertainment. Since I stopped playing EVE it has gotten very fat. NOBODY wants my damn Money!!! I'm not ready to go back to EVE, stop making cheap shit for free. Make GOOD games, I'm still free2play!
I didn't care for the UI in FFXI, however, it was leaps and bounds better than the UI of FFXIV. I played FFXI some and enjoyed it, but I did have a group of people from EQ that went to FFXI together. It was horrible in many respects. From setting up an account, figuring out the UI, to the different sites you had to log in, not having the ability to select which server to play on, which was a problem since a group of us came to FFXI together. FFXI seemed more grindy than other games I had played. Latency was a real problem and mobs could be killed before you even saw them and a corpse would "spawn" in front of you. It also had alot to offer, alot of depth and detail that is absent from newer games. Travelling at lower levels in FFXI, felt like an accomplishment. The boat rides were rather intersting as well. I never did figure out what was breaking my broom handle fishing pole on the boat. Seeing the spring blossoms on the cherry trees when coming into town, just made it feel alive. There was alot I didn't like about FFXI, but there was alot to like as well. FFXI was and is a far superior product to FFIV.
I honestly don't remember the UI in DAoC. I must have figured out and adapted to it ok. I was in Beta for it, but I don't recall much about it. I did play at release. I wasn't too impressed with the dungeons, but had some memorable moments in RvR. I also remember the giants being truly giant. I also remember falling through the world repeatedly.
I don't think that anyone is denying that the older games had problems, they absolutely did, but they also had far more depth and a better sense of community than the newer games. I think that is what many of the "nostalgia people" are looking for. The games that had the gameplay and depth of the older games, with the refinement and advances that come with newer games.
Good analogy, most of those are actually true in real life, (well, global warming certainly has made winters warmer, along with summers) same thing for MMORPG's.
The gameplay mechanics from older MMO's was considerably different that the current crop of "games" delivers today. This is a fact, and has nothing to do with nostalgia.
And no, we can't go play those old games, they've all largely been changed too much from what made them great in the first place, incorporating many modern game features that ruined them in the process. (Someone said they've all experienced their own version of the NGE and its quite true)
Few people ever say that the older games were without flaws, and many modern MMO's have eliminated those flaws which is a great thing.
But what got discarded along the way in terms of gameplay mechanics in order to accomodate a broader and more diverse playerbase is what's sorely missed which has little to do with nostalgia.
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
In many cases, it is nostalgia goggles, myself included. But when I realistically look back at something like SWG, I remember the good times and fun, but I also remember the lack of content, the bugs never being fixed, etc.
Some games though, never lose their appeal to me. A prime example would be Galaga. I have played that game since I was 10. I don't play it all the time, but there is just something satisfying in beating your own, or your friends high score.
It's very strong with World of Warcraft.
Many people are completely delusional about that game, and what it boils down to - They exhausted themselves with it. When Burning Crusade had been out for a while, people started talking about Vanilla servers and how stupid Outland was. When WotLK came out, it was BC that was actually good, and WOTLK was dumb because everything was too easy, and they had made too much quest content and not enough end game. Then Cata comes out, and people wish for the WOTLK days, and BC days and pre-BC days.
No. Had WoW launched in 2004 in the state as Cataclysm it would have had no barring in my opinion. What it comes down to is that when you exhaust yourself with a game for many years, eventually you grow tired of it. This is logical in games like Half-Life 2 and Skyrim, because eventually you have completed what you want in those games. In WoW you keep paying monthly and you get new content.
Somehow people are tricked into thinking that the experience will be new and unique. No. New content in itself has nothing to do with different. More of the same with new coat of paint describes it perfectly for themepark games.
People should stop blaming the expansions and patches. They mean a lot less than people realize. What is the de-factor, is that no matter how much you update the game or put in new content, you grow tired and bored of the same combat, same ai, same engine, same music, same interface.
The outcry for Cataclysm is a way for people to "blame" the game.
When in truth, people should be praising WoW for keeping them occupied for years. This is admirable. any game can be over played if spent 600 days on. People should be realistic, and look at the real deal here. The make or break is not the things that people complain about on forums - celestian steeds, pandas or no 40 man raids. These are not the end-and-be-all.
If viewed in an objective light, Blizzard became better at everything as they developed WoW. They became better at quest, better at interfacing, better at designing bosses, better at dungeon layouts, better at balancing pvp. The only difference was that people were a lot more forgiven when everything was new and exciting.
SWG is a great example. In nostalgia terms the world pvp never worked. Everyone always complained about the covert flagged pvp thing, and the lack of being able to turn your player city into a haven of war.
I clearly remember that 50% of the pistoleers skills in the marksman profession never worked. they actually didn't work. This was amazing. How this could stand for many months, and even years with having an entire class ruined by having attacks and abillities that literally didnt work when you pressed them.
Had this been in WoW, they would have hot fixed it the same day it went live. In that sense, games like WoW moved us forward. the quality and expectations for patches became higher. the bugfree nature of wow set new standards.
In SWG I remember the obscene lack of star wars music. I remember that they promised this all the way up to the point of the CU. From beta 2002 to an update in late 2006, they could not accomadate this.
I remember everyone being clones of each other in compsite armor, and how everyone lacked content to do. it was all just organized hunts for kills. quests were broken. most never worked. people just did random terminal runs, which sucked. you could hunt rancors or kryta dragons.
Yeah there were lots and lots and lots of stuff. But what was amazing how it was all outweighed by the community - of course until... they killed it in cantinas when they introduced holocron grinding. their incompetence had no bounds once Holocron and Q-3PO had left development. it was a complete farce, and to think that some of the producers are still working for lucas arts to day. Blackman for exmaple. why the hell did he get all those millions to make something so banal as the force unleashed? when they could have done a new jedi knight, a new x-wing or a great star wars RTS or perhaps KOTOR3?
Lucas Arts were once, one of the best developer/publishers in the world. they made some of the best adventure games imagineable. why did they fall so far?
I feel that the sun has set on what mmorpgs were supposed to be about. It was supposed to be adventure, exploration, excitment at the unknown. Playing with friends and taking down that big boss and getting the big payoff. Having stories to tell to people about your adventures.
Now, thanks to the "NOW! NOW!" generation, we have none of that. Everyone is level 10 within an hour of play. There is no death penalty. There's no exploration because all the maps are crafted towards the quests.
It used to be they made a huge map, then filled it with creatures, then made the quests around them. Now it seems they simply make the quests first, then dump the creatures in, and make the maps around that. You are led around by your nose from point to point to point and there's nothing in the empty spaces.
The casual market has destroyed the challenge of mmorpgs alltogether. They are now all boring themeparks that have no purpose other than to get to the endgame so you can complain about lack of content within two months and then move on the next mmo and do it again.
Wow showed that mmorpgs can be a commercial sucess, so it spawned new mmos that we wouldn't have seen. However wow's huge sucess dictated to other developers that they have to make it just like wow to make it work. So now everything plays like wow which is a horrible state for us to be in.
There are a few bright points. Eve online offers a unique expeience you can't find anywhere eles. GW2 appears to be breaking the mold on a lot of areas, but we won't know how good it is until it comes out.
I never thought I'd be saying this, but the one game that could save this genre from itself is a korean one. ArchAge. It appears to be both a themepark and a sandbox in certain areas. The visuals are outstanding and player built housing looks great. ArchAge might be our last best hope for peace in this market.
Everything else appears to be bland. The future looks bleak for us old timers. If I grew up in this generation I wouldn't notice how horrible mmos have become over the past seven years.
Masked,
Yet another interesting topic! I do have to say that I respectfully (partially) disagree with you here. While there is such a thing as nostalgia, I think it's pretty obvious when it's happening. My first MMO was Ultima Online. To me, it was the greatest game ever. My second MMO was Everquest and that also is my second favorite MMO. As time passes with UO, the features that it had can't really be found in any decent MMO now. That whole sandbox system is what I came to love. When I played Mortal Online for the first time despite all the bad stuff, I had that really good feeling again for a while. However, it was unplayable. I wouldn't call that nostalgia (since I had never played MO before).
So then, I go back to Ultima Online today (maybe not EA). Do I still find it fun? Hell yes I do! I enjoy the system of being free to do with I want. Nostalgia part is pretty obvious here: The graphics, holding a halberd, gaining magery skill, seeing your house for the first time again. These are the nostalgia factors here. The non-nostalgia factors are: Having a game where you get to live in a world and the ability to do what you want. Skill up any skill you want without having to worry about what class you are. Having the social aspect of chatting with people by a bank, etc.
When I play Skyrim for example, I have that same great feeling when enjoying the freedom to do several things across an interesting world. Again, that's not nostalgia. I feel like this feeling of great features can be reproduced again in todays world! In terms of an MMO, there is much innovation yet to be had in regards to non-themepark features.
So the point i'm trying to make here is that some people like myself can clearly identify the difference between nostalgia and actual great gameplay features that are fun. When I returned to Everquest for the progression server, it was loads of fun. Again, the nostalgia was easily identified: Seeing that familiar item drop, getting that familiar spell at level X, seeing the lands as they used to be. However the non-nostalgia factor was: Having a game again where you can group with people and talk about stuff (not always related to the game). Working together to achieve a goal. Also not having to do quest chains to level up and having leveling actually make a huge difference. These were things that were fun to play again.
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