first i would say people get something else to do and not only spend your whole lifes on playing only WoW and going around
in almost every game that comes out and saying its a WoW clone, atleast get a real life.
next thing is how can you compare something that is totaly different in whole concept, from story, characters, enviroment, game time and whole other things and saying its a WoW clone, because this 2 games are set in totaly 2 differnt universums.
this is not only first time people say its a clone, saw many threads about Guild Wars 2 that some people say its a WoW clone,
well if they dont like the game dont play it its that simple, but dont go around and talk about everything that comes out its a WoW clone, and remember mmos existed before WoW was on market, ask yourself then from what is WoW a clone.
IMHO they should have made another quality RPG with good co-op options. Deep story etc is not really workin out for MMO's...
If they wouldnt have done an MMO I would 100% buy the game, finish it in coop with a friend and afterwards complete on ultra hard to get all achievments etc, but now I wont even glance at it.
No one knows that for sure. Unless you have other MMOS which you can compare to SWTOR and give an example that it failed? even GW2 has a kick ass story behind it and personal storyline in game.
GW2 has a great story, but it is not the silly 1000's hours of voiced over dialogs is it?)
MMO assumes tons of people and if half of the people are stuck reading/listening to endless quests/storylines it will be splitting people up. People within the guilds, people within the questing groups etc. SWTOR wont be a failure to all, but it will be a failure to people who like innovative interesting gameplay. I spent months playing SWG and DDO, since then played every other decent looking beta, got disappointed and went back to single player.
I think it's fairly simple: SWTOR is a themepark MMORPG, so to people who consider themepark MMO's to be 'Wow clones' (usually a term used primarily by themepark haters or people who want to express their negative stance towards the game they're namecalling), SWTOR is a WoW clone as well.
It's nothing but a derogatory term to actually describe the same thing where other people use the term 'themepark MMORPG'.
As for how SWTOR will play, of course it'll play differently than WoW but still within the gameplay settings of a themepark MMORPG. AoC and Aion also played differently than WoW, yet (some) people also call those WoW clones, so basically nothing unexpected here.
Originally posted by Manovar
MMO assumes tons of people and if half of the people are stuck reading/listening to endless quests/storylines it will be splitting people up. People within the guilds, people within the questing groups etc. SWTOR wont be a failure to all, but it will be a failure to people who like innovative interesting gameplay. I spent months playing SWG and DDO, since then played every other decent looking beta, got disappointed and went back to single player.
Then maybe the problem isn't so much SWTOR, but that you lost the ability to enjoy most MMORPG's where other people still can?
As for story, GW2, TSW and SWTOR will use it extensively, each in their own way. I don't see it becoming a problem at all since it affects questing and quest leveling the most, which should be an improved experience because of it compared to how questing goes currently.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
IMHO they should have made another quality RPG with good co-op options. Deep story etc is not really workin out for MMO's...
If they wouldnt have done an MMO I would 100% buy the game, finish it in coop with a friend and afterwards complete on ultra hard to get all achievments etc, but now I wont even glance at it.
No one knows that for sure. Unless you have other MMOS which you can compare to SWTOR and give an example that it failed? even GW2 has a kick ass story behind it and personal storyline in game.
GW2 has a great story, but it is not the silly 1000's hours of voiced over dialogs is it?)
MMO assumes tons of people and if half of the people are stuck reading/listening to endless quests/storylines it will be splitting people up. People within the guilds, people within the questing groups etc. SWTOR wont be a failure to all, but it will be a failure to people who like innovative interesting gameplay. I spent months playing SWG and DDO, since then played every other decent looking beta, got disappointed and went back to single player.
Why do you guys do that? start a discussion about something and then try to take it in another direction? you were talking about how deep story is not working for MMOS and i asked you for an example that makes you so certain.
No where you mentioned anything about V.O or interesting gameplay
Actually, SWToR IS a WoW clone. But at least it's a clone that expands on the WoW mechanics rather than follows them to a T (Rift).
You can't say this game isn't like WoW, because even the designers said they took a lot of inspiration from it. The game looks to play exactly the same, and looks like it'd feel very similar from the videos.
That being said, it's not exactly a BAD thing... because WoW is a good game, and while SWToR keeps that familiar feeling; it's still doing away with parts of WoW that was a hassle.
In other words: it's doing exactly what WoW did to become successful.
Which is why I dont really understand the "killing wow" or "steal wow subs" viewpoint.
Many of the features are already in WoW, and the ones that isn't (massive VO and story focus) seems to require a certain mindset that I doubt is very common in the WoW-crowd.
In other words: I doubt this game will steal a lot of the WoW-players for any longer timeperiod. Pulling in the Bioware/Kotor crowd, sure thing... WoW-players..? Not so sure.
They're already on the SW:ToR boards screaming for WoW playability. Apparently, they are so sick and tired WoW that they want their next game to be just like it. lol
Thats interesting cause I've been a member of the forums since they opened and have been testing for awhile now and I have yet to see or read anything remotely close to that. Nice story though.
I played MMOs since UO beta and have since played AO, AC, EQ, Eve and WoW. So my perspective is quite wide, that is how I know this game plays so much the same as WoW because it is nothing like those others.
For someone who claims to have a very wide prespective you surely do not know that all these features existed even before WOW. What you did was, define the traditional features of MMOS with exception of instanced battlegrounds.
Neither of those games very as linear, casual and instanced as WoW. So in effect they played very differently than WoW.
We are taking about features here. Not to what extent those features were used. Instancing was introduced by Funcom with Anarchy Online as far as casual is concerned that is something very common with majorit of video games. Times have changed and so did demographics of players with times. I never found WOW linear since even though it is quest based you don't have to follow any chain quests and game doesn't tunnel you into choosing a specif path. rift questing is what i call linear but not SWTOR or WOW.
I am talking about how the game plays, not about listing features. So you can argue all you like about where some feature was introduced. But the fact remains that ever since WoW became a success there have been tons of games trying to copy it and SW:TOR is not an exception.
So you can tell your friends/whatever that this game does not play like WoW but you would, imo, be lying to them.
I have basic understanding to differntitate between SWTOR and WOW. You just gave laundry list of features which existed before WOW. And when i mentioned that, now you changing goal posts yet again. By the way game plays the way it does is because of those feature so you can not seperate the two for sake of your convenince.
Earlier it was because of the features then it was the extent of the features and now it is just about how the game plays. How can anyone argue with someone who flip flops in every post?
Let me elaborate. The game plays that way because of the mix of all those features. You bringing up that X feature was present in game Y means nothing. It is all the features put together which decides how the game plays so I have not flip flopped a bit.
Go back to my first post which makes the analogy about the duck. This means what I have been saying all along, the game plays like a duck (WoW) and hence is then probably a duck.
You distorting what I am saying does not change that fact.
havent played WoW but sounds like the OP completely missed the point of WoW....there is loads of lore around warcraft...so the OP completely missed the point of WoW....as WoW IS the lore...
As someone who has read all the novels and manga and have played all the games starting way back when with the first rts game you are right, WoW has a huge amount of lore in its game. Saddly though 90% of its player base could give a rats ass about it. They could care less about anything else in the game other than how high they can get their gear score and how fast they can reach end game. I think that was the point the OP was trying to get out.
Let me elaborate. The game plays that way because of the mix of all those features. You bringing up that X feature was present in game Y means nothing. It is all the features put together which decides how the game plays so I have not flip flopped a bit.
Go back to my first post which makes the analogy about the duck. This means what I have been saying all along, the game plays like a duck (WoW) and hence is then probably a duck.
You distorting what I am saying does not change that fact.
I haven't distorted a thing it is you who keep changing stance with every reply. Features is what makes the game and yes those features have existed before WOW and yes WOW improved on those features. Which doesn't mean that SWTOR just copied everything from WOW, they took those standard pre existing features and modified according to their need. If something works why abondon it?
I find it odd that the discussion on whether or not it is a clone, what is a clone, etc, etc - has continued so long. Sure, we all like to argue from our different points of view and no doubt by claiming that SWTOR is not one in the title; that has left the door wide open for this kind of debate.
As I said earlier in this thread, which has been lost by now - because of the nature of reading the title, first post, and then proceeding to reply - I think a larger issue has been overlooked with this thread. Yes, it is my personal opinion that it is a bigger issue - obviously people think that whether it is a clone or not is a bigger deal (but how many threads have we had on that?) . . . the main issue I take with the OP is that he is telling us how to play.
If somebody wants to rush through, that is there right. If somebody wants to spend years getting through, that is there right.
Right off the back, the OP is saying that everybody that plays WoW plays it the same - this is obviously not the case. People play WoW differently. People will play SWTOR differently. It is kind of ironic, how that actually works out, eh? This is not a WoW-Clone - a game that different people play in different ways - so do not play it like one - as in, do not play it in different ways. The OP wants people to play the game the way he thinks it should be played...
...and thus, I see that as the actual issue with the OP's post.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
I think it's fairly simple: SWTOR is a themepark MMORPG, so to people who consider themepark MMO's to be 'Wow clones' (usually a term used primarily by themepark haters or people who want to express their negative stance towards the game they're namecalling), SWTOR is a WoW clone as well.
It's nothing but a derogatory term to actually describe the same thing where other people use the term 'themepark MMORPG'.
As for how SWTOR will play, of course it'll play differently than WoW but still within the gameplay settings of a themepark MMORPG. AoC and Aion also played differently than WoW, yet (some) people also call those WoW clones, so basically nothing unexpected here.
That's too easy a conclusion.
I hate WoW clones, and i hate themepark games generally because they're not massive, they don't let people decide what to do, they put everything on rails and they don't let you interact with the community as a whole, just with random bunches you just use for their DPS.
BUT if TOR could combine story choices inside the MMO elements( like its PvP) succesfully, and it seems they FAILED to do it, then i could enjoy a themepark game and i wouldn't call it a WoW clone.
but since the story elements "seem" to be completely detached from the actual open-world persistant progress and generally the MMO part of the game, then im afraid there's nothing different this time too.
IMHO they should have made another quality RPG with good co-op options. Deep story etc is not really workin out for MMO's...
If they wouldnt have done an MMO I would 100% buy the game, finish it in coop with a friend and afterwards complete on ultra hard to get all achievments etc, but now I wont even glance at it.
No one knows that for sure. Unless you have other MMOS which you can compare to SWTOR and give an example that it failed? even GW2 has a kick ass story behind it and personal storyline in game.
GW2 has a great story, but it is not the silly 1000's hours of voiced over dialogs is it?)
MMO assumes tons of people and if half of the people are stuck reading/listening to endless quests/storylines it will be splitting people up. People within the guilds, people within the questing groups etc. SWTOR wont be a failure to all, but it will be a failure to people who like innovative interesting gameplay. I spent months playing SWG and DDO, since then played every other decent looking beta, got disappointed and went back to single player.
Why do you guys do that? start a discussion about something and then try to take it in another direction? you were talking about how deep story is not working for MMOS and i asked you for an example that makes you so certain.
No where you mentioned anything about V.O or interesting gameplay
Ok, limit to how deep is the story. I might not have good examples of very deep stories, but I can make a good comparison where single player skyrim or DA or ME has great graphics and amazing story lines and takes around 80-100(200,300...) hours to go through most of them. MMO is supposed to be oriented for mass playing experience not mass reading experience. A person can read at least 3 times faster then listen meaning voiceovers will make human interaction time even less.
Originally posted by MMO.Maverick I think it's fairly simple: SWTOR is a themepark MMORPG, so to people who consider themepark MMO's to be 'Wow clones' (usually a term used primarily by themepark haters or people who want to express their negative stance towards the game they're namecalling), SWTOR is a WoW clone as well.
It's nothing but a derogatory term to actually describe the same thing where other people use the term 'themepark MMORPG'.
As for how SWTOR will play, of course it'll play differently than WoW but still within the gameplay settings of a themepark MMORPG. AoC and Aion also played differently than WoW, yet (some) people also call those WoW clones, so basically nothing unexpected here.
Originally posted by Manovar
MMO assumes tons of people and if half of the people are stuck reading/listening to endless quests/storylines it will be splitting people up. People within the guilds, people within the questing groups etc. SWTOR wont be a failure to all, but it will be a failure to people who like innovative interesting gameplay. I spent months playing SWG and DDO, since then played every other decent looking beta, got disappointed and went back to single player.
Then maybe the problem isn't so much SWTOR, but that you lost the ability to enjoy most MMORPG's where other people still can?
As for story, GW2, TSW and SWTOR will use it extensively, each in their own way. I don't see it becoming a problem at all since it affects questing and quest leveling the most, which should be an improved experience because of it compared to how questing goes currently.
Story in SW:TOR made questing a lot more enjoyable. It felt as though my quest had some purpose and to be able to be working on my class quest or some other quest and have side quest pop up at you killed things was just perfect. Never really felt like I was doing Kill x of these quest. It felt like I was being rewarded for fighting my way through somewhere to complete my class quest. This little ability to somewhat hide these types of side quest imo made a huge difference for me in my questing experience.
and your right Story is going to be a big part of the next 3 big mmo's and for that I am pretty thankful. I know there will be questing and kill x of these and gather these type quest, but the better you can mask it and make it seem like there is some reason to it the better the game feels. I think SW:TOR did a great job of it. I feel GW2 will also do a good job of making the traditional questing more enjoyable.
Why do you guys do that? start a discussion about something and then try to take it in another direction? you were talking about how deep story is not working for MMOS and i asked you for an example that makes you so certain.
No where you mentioned anything about V.O or interesting gameplay
Ok, limit to how deep is the story. I might not have good examples of very deep stories, but I can make a good comparison where single player skyrim or DA or ME has great graphics and amazing story lines and takes around 80-100(200,300...) hours to go through most of them. MMO is supposed to be oriented for mass playing experience not mass reading experience. A person can read at least 3 times faster then listen meaning voiceovers will make human interaction time even less.
So in short you have no example to give in terms of MMOS to back up your cliam that 'deep story is not working for MMOS'. That is all i wanted to know.
Everything else regarding VO and reading text boils down to preference. Not everyone likes to read texts and same for V.O but one can not deny the immersion effect of V.O. Ever since i played AOC the Tortage area blew my mind and i have been waiting for MMO to use V.O beyond the starter area.
Just another theme park that does nonthing for the genre. Still waiting for a Living Breathing World.
Sounds like Second Life or Entropy Universe would be the games for you.
Some of you jsut dont get it!!!!!
What we want is a "COMBAT" centered MMO where the main focus of the game is on combat but set in a living, breathing, dynamic world where choices have consequences and exploration and Socio-economic decisions are played out over the course of a players progression. We dont want a game that is centered on combat not on having a second life, if we wanted to to play games like you mentioned then we would play them but they dont offer the combat and explorable "open" world that the sandbox crowd desires.
Oh, you mean like GW2, lmao? Wow, you GW fanboys are gonna be in a world of hurt when that game comes out, lol. Talk about denial. I'll tell you right now, go and dream your wet dreams about GW2 while you still can. It wont take long after it comes out till it fades away to the sidelines just like the first GW did.
PS,
Yes, this is a troll post and no, I dont give a flying fuck if you so called, epic fail mods ban me or not frankly, .
I think it's fairly simple: SWTOR is a themepark MMORPG, so to people who consider themepark MMO's to be 'Wow clones' (usually a term used primarily by themepark haters or people who want to express their negative stance towards the game they're namecalling), SWTOR is a WoW clone as well.
It's nothing but a derogatory term to actually describe the same thing where other people use the term 'themepark MMORPG'.
As for how SWTOR will play, of course it'll play differently than WoW but still within the gameplay settings of a themepark MMORPG. AoC and Aion also played differently than WoW, yet (some) people also call those WoW clones, so basically nothing unexpected here.
That's too easy a conclusion.
I hate WoW clones, and i hate themepark games generally because they're not massive, they don't let people decide what to do, they put everything on rails and they don't let you interact with the community as a whole, just with random bunches you just use for their DPS.
BUT if TOR could combine story choices inside the MMO elements( like its PvP) succesfully, and it seems they FAILED to do it, then i could enjoy a themepark game and i wouldn't call it a WoW clone.
but since the story elements "seem" to be completely detached from the actual open-world persistant progress and generally the MMO part of the game, then im afraid there's nothing different this time too.
There's nothing 'too easy' about what I said, on top of that, your post does nothing to refute what I posted, in fact what you did was only confirm it.
Like you wrote, if you could enjoy the game then you wouldn't call it a WoW clone, if you can't enjoy a themepark game you'll call it a WoW clone. Like I said: people use the term 'WoW clone' not neutrally but derogatory to express scorn and aversion about a game they're talking about.
As for the having failed to combine story elements inside an MMORPG, maybe to you, but obviously from the many, many reports and impressions of people stating how they liked it and enjoyed it, clearly they haven't to the majority of people. But then again, you already stated how you hate themepark games in general, so I don't consider it a surprise when you only focus on the most negative impressions that are out there.
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums: Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Even so I would recommend Skyrim for single player storyline, it has a much more immersive world.
I didnt know I could find a space ship in Skyrim (and WoW) that I can use to travel to different planets, or light sabers and blasters, just a few things why I'm looking forward to TOR.
Skyrim is one of the best games I've ever played, but comparing it to TOR is even more stupid than comparing GW2 and TOR imo. I bought Skyrim because I wanted quality high fantasy immersive singleplayer game where I can do what I want and dont have to compete with others and a ton of others reasons, unlike TOR which I'm looking forward because of SW, space, high-tech/sci-fi, co-op, mmorpg (raids, bg's, owpvp). About every reason why I want to play both games are different. You can pick any game and start comparing it to some other completely irrelative games like you just did, no point in that. No need to be so dramatic and think in black and white absolutes, but saying this in mmorpg.com forums is like talking to the walls ofcourse.
Even so I would recommend Skyrim for single player storyline, it has a much more immersive world.
I didnt know I could find a space ship in Skyrim (and WoW) that I can use to travel to different planets, or light sabers and blasters, just a few things why I'm looking forward to TOR.
Skyrim is one of the best games I've ever played, but comparing it to TOR is even more stupid than comparing GW2 and TOR imo. I bought Skyrim because I wanted quality high fantasy immersive singleplayer game where I can do what I want and dont have to compete with others and a ton of others reasons, unlike TOR which I'm looking forward because of SW, space, high-tech/sci-fi, co-op, mmorpg (raids, bg's, owpvp). About every reason why I want to play both games are different. You can pick any game and start comparing it to some other completely irrelative games like you just did, no point in that. No need to be so dramatic and think in black and white absolutes, but saying this in mmorpg.com forums is like talking to the walls ofcourse.
Tell me about it. It is so black and white here. Either it is a clone or it is not. Amazing how rigid people can be when it comes to gaming.
I hate WoW clones, and i hate themepark games generally
Oh you dont like themeparks? Why the heck are you talking about them then? I dont like turn based strategy games, and you will never see me bashing those games and whining how they could have been something else, the games are made for those who like them, just like themepark mmorpgs. Is there anything more stupid than clinging to things you dont like when you could move to things you DO like actually?
So in short you have no example to give in terms of MMOS to back up your cliam that 'deep story is not working for MMOS'. That is all i wanted to know.
Everything else regarding VO and reading text boils down to preference. Not everyone likes to read texts and same for V.O but one can not deny the immersion effect of V.O. Ever since i played AOC the Tortage area blew my mind and i have been waiting for MMO to use V.O beyond the starter area.
It helps with immersion for some and kills it for others. As has been said in a few threads, think of book vs. movie - think about text based vs. graphics.
So, no - you cannot deny the immersion effect of V.O. - as long as you are taking into acount that effect can be both good and bad.
As for the discussion on deep story, I would say it has been pretty clear that the evidence for what he suggests tends to exist within the games themselves. In general, they've become lighter on story. In general, players rush. Deep story does not work for players that are rushing...
...does not mean that deep story does not work for many - but one need only look at the games to see what is going on.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Having played WoW since vanilla and playing SWTOR beta, you cannot really compare the two. People say it is a clone because 1: You have a hotbar, 2: numbers activate abilities blah blah.
Ever played Everquest?
Combat in SWTOR feels different, more fluid and meaningful. The story immerses you like no other MMO I have played. I enjoyed EVERY quest I have done.
I still play WoW and probably will after SWTOR comes out but it has become a grindfest. I limit myself to raiding 2 nights a week at this point. BC was the glory days of WoW IMO, after that, I don't think I read or payed attention to a single quest. I play more for the people I play with [which if you find a good group of people in WoW, stick with them] than for the game itself.
Looking like WoW, and playing like WoW are two different things. The UI is familiar as to not alienate MMO regulars, but the game itself is a whole 'nother galaxy, far, far away.
Originally posted by Supersoups Originally posted by Manovar
Why do you guys do that? start a discussion about something and then try to take it in another direction? you were talking about how deep story is not working for MMOS and i asked you for an example that makes you so certain. No where you mentioned anything about V.O or interesting gameplay
Ok, limit to how deep is the story. I might not have good examples of very deep stories, but I can make a good comparison where single player skyrim or DA or ME has great graphics and amazing story lines and takes around 80-100(200,300...) hours to go through most of them. MMO is supposed to be oriented for mass playing experience not mass reading experience. A person can read at least 3 times faster then listen meaning voiceovers will make human interaction time even less. So in short you have no example to give in terms of MMOS to back up your cliam that 'deep story is not working for MMOS'. That is all i wanted to know. Everything else regarding VO and reading text boils down to preference. Not everyone likes to read texts and same for V.O but one can not deny the immersion effect of V.O. Ever since i played AOC the Tortage area blew my mind and i have been waiting for MMO to use V.O beyond the starter area.
It is a shame people just up and forget about poor ole EQ2 and its full V.O. when it came out. Poor ole EQ2.
So in short you have no example to give in terms of MMOS to back up your cliam that 'deep story is not working for MMOS'. That is all i wanted to know.
Everything else regarding VO and reading text boils down to preference. Not everyone likes to read texts and same for V.O but one can not deny the immersion effect of V.O. Ever since i played AOC the Tortage area blew my mind and i have been waiting for MMO to use V.O beyond the starter area.
It helps with immersion for some and kills it for others. As has been said in a few threads, think of book vs. movie - think about text based vs. graphics.
So, no - you cannot deny the immersion effect of V.O. - as long as you are taking into acount that effect can be both good and bad.
As for the discussion on deep story, I would say it has been pretty clear that the evidence for what he suggests tends to exist within the games themselves. In general, they've become lighter on story. In general, players rush. Deep story does not work for players that are rushing...
...does not mean that deep story does not work for many - but one need only look at the games to see what is going on.
I agree that is why i think it a bit earlier to announce that 'deep stories are not working for MMOS'. One can only be certain after SWTOR, GW2 and TSW releases since all three have story as an integral part of their game features. If anything these games are trying to slow down the rush to hitting cap levels in a week.
Originally posted by cyress8
It is a shame people just up and forget about poor ole EQ2 and its full V.O. when it came out. Poor ole EQ2.
I am so sorry i should have mentioned EQ2 i have no idea how i forgot about it.
Having played WoW since vanilla and playing SWTOR beta, you cannot really compare the two. People say it is a clone because 1: You have a hotbar, 2: numbers activate abilities blah blah.
Btw the 1,1,2,3,1,1,2 is kinda stupid when people can remap their keys, it does not have to be numbers, do like I do, remap all the action keys to q,e,r,t,f,g,x,c,v and their shift variants, put pots and buffs only in numbers, a lot more fluid and actiony gameplay instantly when you can use wasd more comfortably not having to reach for numbers, I hate action keys in 1-9 tbh. Just saying
Comments
hi all
first i would say people get something else to do and not only spend your whole lifes on playing only WoW and going around
in almost every game that comes out and saying its a WoW clone, atleast get a real life.
next thing is how can you compare something that is totaly different in whole concept, from story, characters, enviroment, game time and whole other things and saying its a WoW clone, because this 2 games are set in totaly 2 differnt universums.
this is not only first time people say its a clone, saw many threads about Guild Wars 2 that some people say its a WoW clone,
well if they dont like the game dont play it its that simple, but dont go around and talk about everything that comes out its a WoW clone, and remember mmos existed before WoW was on market, ask yourself then from what is WoW a clone.
GW2 has a great story, but it is not the silly 1000's hours of voiced over dialogs is it?)
MMO assumes tons of people and if half of the people are stuck reading/listening to endless quests/storylines it will be splitting people up. People within the guilds, people within the questing groups etc. SWTOR wont be a failure to all, but it will be a failure to people who like innovative interesting gameplay. I spent months playing SWG and DDO, since then played every other decent looking beta, got disappointed and went back to single player.
I think it's fairly simple: SWTOR is a themepark MMORPG, so to people who consider themepark MMO's to be 'Wow clones' (usually a term used primarily by themepark haters or people who want to express their negative stance towards the game they're namecalling), SWTOR is a WoW clone as well.
It's nothing but a derogatory term to actually describe the same thing where other people use the term 'themepark MMORPG'.
As for how SWTOR will play, of course it'll play differently than WoW but still within the gameplay settings of a themepark MMORPG. AoC and Aion also played differently than WoW, yet (some) people also call those WoW clones, so basically nothing unexpected here.
Then maybe the problem isn't so much SWTOR, but that you lost the ability to enjoy most MMORPG's where other people still can?
As for story, GW2, TSW and SWTOR will use it extensively, each in their own way. I don't see it becoming a problem at all since it affects questing and quest leveling the most, which should be an improved experience because of it compared to how questing goes currently.
The ACTUAL size of MMORPG worlds: a comparison list between MMO's
The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
Why do you guys do that? start a discussion about something and then try to take it in another direction? you were talking about how deep story is not working for MMOS and i asked you for an example that makes you so certain.
No where you mentioned anything about V.O or interesting gameplay
Actually, SWToR IS a WoW clone. But at least it's a clone that expands on the WoW mechanics rather than follows them to a T (Rift).
You can't say this game isn't like WoW, because even the designers said they took a lot of inspiration from it. The game looks to play exactly the same, and looks like it'd feel very similar from the videos.
That being said, it's not exactly a BAD thing... because WoW is a good game, and while SWToR keeps that familiar feeling; it's still doing away with parts of WoW that was a hassle.
In other words: it's doing exactly what WoW did to become successful.
Thats interesting cause I've been a member of the forums since they opened and have been testing for awhile now and I have yet to see or read anything remotely close to that. Nice story though.
Let me elaborate. The game plays that way because of the mix of all those features. You bringing up that X feature was present in game Y means nothing. It is all the features put together which decides how the game plays so I have not flip flopped a bit.
Go back to my first post which makes the analogy about the duck. This means what I have been saying all along, the game plays like a duck (WoW) and hence is then probably a duck.
You distorting what I am saying does not change that fact.
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As someone who has read all the novels and manga and have played all the games starting way back when with the first rts game you are right, WoW has a huge amount of lore in its game. Saddly though 90% of its player base could give a rats ass about it. They could care less about anything else in the game other than how high they can get their gear score and how fast they can reach end game. I think that was the point the OP was trying to get out.
I haven't distorted a thing it is you who keep changing stance with every reply. Features is what makes the game and yes those features have existed before WOW and yes WOW improved on those features. Which doesn't mean that SWTOR just copied everything from WOW, they took those standard pre existing features and modified according to their need. If something works why abondon it?
I find it odd that the discussion on whether or not it is a clone, what is a clone, etc, etc - has continued so long. Sure, we all like to argue from our different points of view and no doubt by claiming that SWTOR is not one in the title; that has left the door wide open for this kind of debate.
As I said earlier in this thread, which has been lost by now - because of the nature of reading the title, first post, and then proceeding to reply - I think a larger issue has been overlooked with this thread. Yes, it is my personal opinion that it is a bigger issue - obviously people think that whether it is a clone or not is a bigger deal (but how many threads have we had on that?) . . . the main issue I take with the OP is that he is telling us how to play.
If somebody wants to rush through, that is there right. If somebody wants to spend years getting through, that is there right.
Right off the back, the OP is saying that everybody that plays WoW plays it the same - this is obviously not the case. People play WoW differently. People will play SWTOR differently. It is kind of ironic, how that actually works out, eh? This is not a WoW-Clone - a game that different people play in different ways - so do not play it like one - as in, do not play it in different ways. The OP wants people to play the game the way he thinks it should be played...
...and thus, I see that as the actual issue with the OP's post.
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That's too easy a conclusion.
I hate WoW clones, and i hate themepark games generally because they're not massive, they don't let people decide what to do, they put everything on rails and they don't let you interact with the community as a whole, just with random bunches you just use for their DPS.
BUT if TOR could combine story choices inside the MMO elements( like its PvP) succesfully, and it seems they FAILED to do it, then i could enjoy a themepark game and i wouldn't call it a WoW clone.
but since the story elements "seem" to be completely detached from the actual open-world persistant progress and generally the MMO part of the game, then im afraid there's nothing different this time too.
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Ok, limit to how deep is the story. I might not have good examples of very deep stories, but I can make a good comparison where single player skyrim or DA or ME has great graphics and amazing story lines and takes around 80-100(200,300...) hours to go through most of them. MMO is supposed to be oriented for mass playing experience not mass reading experience. A person can read at least 3 times faster then listen meaning voiceovers will make human interaction time even less.
As for story, GW2, TSW and SWTOR will use it extensively, each in their own way. I don't see it becoming a problem at all since it affects questing and quest leveling the most, which should be an improved experience because of it compared to how questing goes currently.
Story in SW:TOR made questing a lot more enjoyable. It felt as though my quest had some purpose and to be able to be working on my class quest or some other quest and have side quest pop up at you killed things was just perfect. Never really felt like I was doing Kill x of these quest. It felt like I was being rewarded for fighting my way through somewhere to complete my class quest. This little ability to somewhat hide these types of side quest imo made a huge difference for me in my questing experience.
and your right Story is going to be a big part of the next 3 big mmo's and for that I am pretty thankful. I know there will be questing and kill x of these and gather these type quest, but the better you can mask it and make it seem like there is some reason to it the better the game feels. I think SW:TOR did a great job of it. I feel GW2 will also do a good job of making the traditional questing more enjoyable.
So in short you have no example to give in terms of MMOS to back up your cliam that 'deep story is not working for MMOS'. That is all i wanted to know.
Everything else regarding VO and reading text boils down to preference. Not everyone likes to read texts and same for V.O but one can not deny the immersion effect of V.O. Ever since i played AOC the Tortage area blew my mind and i have been waiting for MMO to use V.O beyond the starter area.
Oh, you mean like GW2, lmao? Wow, you GW fanboys are gonna be in a world of hurt when that game comes out, lol. Talk about denial. I'll tell you right now, go and dream your wet dreams about GW2 while you still can. It wont take long after it comes out till it fades away to the sidelines just like the first GW did.
PS,
Yes, this is a troll post and no, I dont give a flying fuck if you so called, epic fail mods ban me or not frankly,
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There's nothing 'too easy' about what I said, on top of that, your post does nothing to refute what I posted, in fact what you did was only confirm it.
Like you wrote, if you could enjoy the game then you wouldn't call it a WoW clone, if you can't enjoy a themepark game you'll call it a WoW clone. Like I said: people use the term 'WoW clone' not neutrally but derogatory to express scorn and aversion about a game they're talking about.
As for the having failed to combine story elements inside an MMORPG, maybe to you, but obviously from the many, many reports and impressions of people stating how they liked it and enjoyed it, clearly they haven't to the majority of people. But then again, you already stated how you hate themepark games in general, so I don't consider it a surprise when you only focus on the most negative impressions that are out there.
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The ease with which predictions are made on these forums:
Fratman: "I'm saying Spring 2012 at the earliest [for TOR release]. Anyone still clinging to 2011 is deluding themself at this point."
I didnt know I could find a space ship in Skyrim (and WoW) that I can use to travel to different planets, or light sabers and blasters, just a few things why I'm looking forward to TOR.
Skyrim is one of the best games I've ever played, but comparing it to TOR is even more stupid than comparing GW2 and TOR imo. I bought Skyrim because I wanted quality high fantasy immersive singleplayer game where I can do what I want and dont have to compete with others and a ton of others reasons, unlike TOR which I'm looking forward because of SW, space, high-tech/sci-fi, co-op, mmorpg (raids, bg's, owpvp). About every reason why I want to play both games are different. You can pick any game and start comparing it to some other completely irrelative games like you just did, no point in that. No need to be so dramatic and think in black and white absolutes, but saying this in mmorpg.com forums is like talking to the walls ofcourse.
Tell me about it. It is so black and white here. Either it is a clone or it is not. Amazing how rigid people can be when it comes to gaming.
Oh you dont like themeparks? Why the heck are you talking about them then? I dont like turn based strategy games, and you will never see me bashing those games and whining how they could have been something else, the games are made for those who like them, just like themepark mmorpgs. Is there anything more stupid than clinging to things you dont like when you could move to things you DO like actually?
It helps with immersion for some and kills it for others. As has been said in a few threads, think of book vs. movie - think about text based vs. graphics.
So, no - you cannot deny the immersion effect of V.O. - as long as you are taking into acount that effect can be both good and bad.
As for the discussion on deep story, I would say it has been pretty clear that the evidence for what he suggests tends to exist within the games themselves. In general, they've become lighter on story. In general, players rush. Deep story does not work for players that are rushing...
...does not mean that deep story does not work for many - but one need only look at the games to see what is going on.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
Having played WoW since vanilla and playing SWTOR beta, you cannot really compare the two. People say it is a clone because 1: You have a hotbar, 2: numbers activate abilities blah blah.
Ever played Everquest?
Combat in SWTOR feels different, more fluid and meaningful. The story immerses you like no other MMO I have played. I enjoyed EVERY quest I have done.
I still play WoW and probably will after SWTOR comes out but it has become a grindfest. I limit myself to raiding 2 nights a week at this point. BC was the glory days of WoW IMO, after that, I don't think I read or payed attention to a single quest. I play more for the people I play with [which if you find a good group of people in WoW, stick with them] than for the game itself.
Looking like WoW, and playing like WoW are two different things. The UI is familiar as to not alienate MMO regulars, but the game itself is a whole 'nother galaxy, far, far away.
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So in short you have no example to give in terms of MMOS to back up your cliam that 'deep story is not working for MMOS'. That is all i wanted to know.
Everything else regarding VO and reading text boils down to preference. Not everyone likes to read texts and same for V.O but one can not deny the immersion effect of V.O. Ever since i played AOC the Tortage area blew my mind and i have been waiting for MMO to use V.O beyond the starter area.
It is a shame people just up and forget about poor ole EQ2 and its full V.O. when it came out. Poor ole EQ2.
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I agree that is why i think it a bit earlier to announce that 'deep stories are not working for MMOS'. One can only be certain after SWTOR, GW2 and TSW releases since all three have story as an integral part of their game features. If anything these games are trying to slow down the rush to hitting cap levels in a week.
I am so sorry i should have mentioned EQ2
i have no idea how i forgot about it.
Btw the 1,1,2,3,1,1,2 is kinda stupid when people can remap their keys, it does not have to be numbers, do like I do, remap all the action keys to q,e,r,t,f,g,x,c,v and their shift variants, put pots and buffs only in numbers, a lot more fluid and actiony gameplay instantly when you can use wasd more comfortably not having to reach for numbers, I hate action keys in 1-9 tbh. Just saying
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