Longlevity of a single game isn't the problem... all those games are more or less the same... Most people grew tired of these games because theyn are all using exactly the same ingredients.... With all the innovation in GW2 its ready to break this trend
Played EQ and DAoC for 3 years, WoW for 2 years and all later MMO's for considerably less.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
From Arenanet's perspective it doesn't matter if you play the game for 1 month or 10 months as long as you find it good enough to buy the next expansion. They don't have a strong motive to add a lot of time consuming stuff - just fun stuff. I like that. One of the benefits of having no subsciption fee.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Despite playing FFXI, and WoW for over a year each, do you know what online game I've played the longest?
Team Fortress 2.
I don't think a game really needs to keep you working for it to be enjoyable. I'm starting to see the achievements in subscription based games as just an "itch". You scratch it and it feels better temporarily, but then it returns somewhere else. It's just a way to keep you playing/paying.
Think back to your favorite MMORPGS. For me it was DAOC, EQ, WoW, and Asherons Call. Those were my fave’s, and all 4 I played for over a year at the least. The reason these games lasted so long and had a long term appeal is that there was always something to work on. I hate to use the word “work” when I’m talking about video games. But having goals in the game like crafting, raid gear, pvp rank, ect gave that sense of accomplishment when you finally reached something that you were working for.
My concern for Guild Wars is that it’s going to have that “play for 3 weeks and get bored feeling”, because after reading about the game, it seems there is very little to work on or work for. I enjoy the idea of dynamic events and personal story. But without goals (and I don’t mean leveling) the game starts to feel repetitive quickly.
Having to obtain raid gear or having alternate advancement, fighting for a pvp rank or pvp currency for new abilities (for example) feeds that hunger that keeps players coming back to an MMO. Most are looking for that addicting hook that the past mmos have had, I think having to work for your character is the main ingredient for that longevity.
I hope I’m wrong since the Devs really haven’t talked much about endgame, But after AoC endgame is my biggest worry about mmos.
And what is not repetetive in the games you like? all those you mention have a repetive gameplay. Raiding is the most repetetive soul destroying form of gaming ive ever done and no gaurantees you get what you want. sure you have a goal, but someone keeps moving the goalposts. In GW2 you and everyone else in your group thats does a dungeon gets something so nobody is left out. You have 2 typres of pvp with GW2.
Structured: you go in at lvl cap with every skill unlocked
World PvP: you fight against other players with what you have at the lvl you got your character to and only with skils you have unlocked.
You really cant get more choice than that really.
The only gripe I see that I cant really faulter you for is end game, but tbh I dont want to be grinding for gear all the time like other games do it. We need to move away from that crap.
And lets look at the lvl cap a moment, 80!! how many games have rolled out with a lvl cap of 80? if your done at lvl 80 and really adventured within 3 weeks, then you seriously need to look at life beyond the pc.
It has crafting:
Weaponsmith - craft melee weapons, such as swords, axes and hammers.
Huntsman - craft ranged weapons like bows and pistol, as well as torches and warhorns.
Artificer - craft magical weapons such as staves and scepters.
Why just not follow DAOC and use a simple realm rank system. I dont even need rewards for it, just some kind of system to determine your skill and dedication to PVP. This applies only to WvWvW when arena pvp is boring as hell.
But even if we dont get that i think the PVP will make the endgame endless. The feeling of hiding in a gate tower ambushing unknowing bypassers can keep any true MMO pvp fan intrested for many years :P. God i miss that feeling from daoc. *goes to youtube and watches old frontier vids*
Originally posted by eAzydaman Why just not follow DAOC and use a simple realm rank system. I dont even need rewards for it, just some kind of system to determine your skill and dedication to PVP. This applies only to WvWvW when arena pvp is boring as hell. But even if we dont get that i think the PVP will make the endgame endless. The feeling of hiding in a gate tower ambushing unknowing bypassers can keep any true MMO pvp fan intrested for many years :P. God i miss that feeling from daoc. *goes to youtube and watches old frontier vids* Peace!
GW2 will have a server ranking system for WvWvW. That's how you will be matched up with your two opponents each time a new match starts. I'm pretty sure they will take win/loss, participation, and maybe some other criteria into account to create each server's ranking.
RPG's need to be like long-running tv series that we can depend on to enjoy indefinetly that's being talked about by everyone for the foreseeable future. Besides, to stand the test of time is THE major marking criteria in most entertainment, afterall.
I think in GW2 case, because it is B2P, it will be quicker to level up without really intending to speed through the game for a lot of regular mmo players. Additionally A LOT rides on how repeatable the DYNAMIC EVENT PvE content succeeds at being. Finally as GW2 is themepark, themepark is always lower than sandbox potentially has from overall design from first principles.
That all said, GW2 does seem to be ingeniously layered to extend playing time and keep fun in different game modes and activities fresh and avoid forcing players to thrash any one objective in game to "never again" status.
story, dynamic content, world-building, real alts, side-kicking should be a big help in PvE
Several modes of seriously designed PvP with WvWvW for a more sandy end-game too.
It looks like they have covered most bases so, formula and ingredients are high quality, just depends on how good the cooking is.
The main problem with longevity in a game has one fundamental problem: You can not make everyone happy all the time.
I have been playing mmo's since UO, and someone always complains about something. I started UO before renny came out, and as soon as it hit all the complaints that flooded forums and blogs and such about game companys catering to carebear gamers, was on a massive scale. Same goes for all the "carebears" flooding right back in response.
To many people just dont know how to go with the flow. While it made the game exciting to never know what or who will pop up behind ya, I was equally excited to be able to farm or do a dungeon without having to always worry about what gank squad might roll up. We need to learn all over again how to find the fun in whats available. When there were only a couple of choices of what mmo you could play we all tried to find enjoyment in the end-game and content available reguardless of what it actually offered.
I am for all intents and purposes a "carebear" when it comes to gaming. I dont really like to PvP, but will on my terms, I love arena PvP especially in WoW(to all the flamers and trollers, yes I know WoW pvp sucks arena sucks battlegrounds suck blah blah blah) I approched arena in the same way we all should with any content, I did it to have fun(i know crazy) while I wanted to win it was secondary. My true goal was to live longer in that match then I did in an earlier one, to me that was fun. I want to PLAY a game not work a game.
I played UO from vanilla till Mondains legacy, I played WoW from vanilla till two weeks before the cata release. While I hated alot of what they did to WoW I just respeced and went about playing.
The point is I believe as long as GW2 doesnt become all about the numbers and a gear grind, all of us will be keeping GW populated for a long time to come if we do all we can to find the fun it what is offered instead of complaining constantly about how its not our idea of a perfect game with perfect content.
All Murlocs must die horrible, painful, bloody deaths!
Imo GW2 won't suffer from longevity problems.. basically it has all the necessary ingredients for it (unlike some other big-name mmos that I won't mention).
If TF2 or LoL can have great longevity I don't see why GW2 wouldn't. As I said so many times, story-based gameplay goes directly against longevity. Thankfully GW2 has so much to offer apart from the personal story.
Longlevity of a single game isn't the problem... all those games are more or less the same... Most people grew tired of these games because theyn are all using exactly the same ingredients.... With all the innovation in GW2 its ready to break this trend
Played EQ and DAoC for 3 years, WoW for 2 years and all later MMO's for considerably less.
I think the longest I played a MMO after 5 yrs of EQ was like 2 months. Since then I play console games, and average like 1 new game per month. ONly a couple of games I have been able to play more than a month or so straight, and even those I get tired of.
I havent been an MMO gamer in like 5 yrs now, so hope the burn out is gone.
That is the thing though with gaming. Older gamers are replaced by newer ones.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
Longevity is down to a combination of content and finding a Guild to commit too. The content needs to good enough to obviously want to enter the carrot on a stick race and accomplish something, but it's the commitment you make to your Guild that keeps you playing when you don't really want to.
People love novelty, which is why ‘app’ games for phones and Facebook are popular atm. You can buy them cheap so you don’t feel cheated if they’re crap and they’re very accessible.
When WOW came out, it introduced new MMO gamers to stuff they’d never seen before – a huge novelty factor. These features (silly hats, crafting, holiday events, titles, etc) were added fun because of the social element attached. These are now commonplace in MMOs.
PvP makes for great longevity – nothing compares the degree of variance introduced and sense of achievement felt when beating a ‘real’ player. Hence the success of FPS games. For me, PvP in MMOs is greatly underdeveloped and all too often an afterthought due to the balancing it requires. There’s often only one or two battle formats and the environments are very limited.
Fun is key, but since all MMOs are similar by definition, if you don’t enjoy the fundamentals, the genre’s realistically dead for you. This is why I’ve been hoping for a 3PS MMO fantasy game that introduces a more interactive, fun element to the game whilst retaining the depth.
Aryas
Playing: Ableton Live 8 ~ ragequitcancelsubdeletegamesmashcomputerkillself ~
Longevity is only a problem because games are poorly made/dumbed down to suit the masses. No wonder you get bored to quickly. A little complexity would go a long way. It would of course create a less casual game, boohoo(less sales).
I don't say this to be funny...but Guild Wars doesn't have an unsubscribe button. Once you buy Guild Wars, you actually never have to experience that moment when you "unsub". A GW player can go weeks or months without touching the game, but can still consider themselves a Guild Wars player. To play again, you simply log back in.
The Guild Wars community is one of the strongest I've ever seen for a game and Guild Wars 2 is shaping up to be even stronger. In my opinion, it seems to be one of those rare games that transcend what's happening on the screen. If longevity hasn't been a problem for Guild Wars 1, I don't see it being an issue for it's sequel either.
I don't need a price tag to feel justified of playing a game. I play games solely based on their gameplay. I play 15 years old games, because they are that good or haven't been replaced by new ones and I have played GW1 for more than 5 years. I don't need a constant stream of new content to feel satisfied, if the game is good.
Given I am a pvp player at heart, any game with a good multiplayer can hold me for long. However if the game is played and has lived its life for me, I have no hard feelings quitting it.
For some players, mmos should take forever, literally. Thinking if they cannot keep you busy all the time, something is wrong. I like to play other games too, or do something else, which consumes a lot of my time. Hence I don't see the problem.
Longevity is a good concern, it is what have been the largest problem with most MMOs the last few years.
I have however spent years in the first game, so ANET can at least get me hooked.
But can DEs hook us up for years or not? Noone really knows that yet.
Of course the same thing goes for TOR, TSW and any other releasing MMO. The gear treadmill doesn't really help either, most of the games that people got bored of fast have raids and similar stuff in them.
Having something to work on depends as much on the player as the game. People quit a game not because there is nothing else to do, but rather, because there is nothing else that they want to do, or perhaps that the only things that that you still want to do are gated off by having to do a bunch of grinding to get there. No matter how much content a game has, if you don't like any of it, you'll get bored and quit very quickly.
WvWvW. Explorable mode mode dynamic dungeons. Mini games. farming for traits. Farming for unique weapon & armor skins. Doing World raids with friends and guild mates. Running more of the 1500 dynamic events I missed on the way to level cap.
This is jsut a sampling of content I will be doing at level cap, I jsut dont find this argument that there is nothing to do conventional. There is tons of content to do but just because there is no 25 man raids in the WoW mode people start freaking out. I posit that there is more to do in the GW2 model of MMO gaming then WoW/Rift/ToR. If you want to be blinded by your themepark goggles then be my guess, I am looking forward to the myriad of things to do in GW2.
Playing: GW2 Waiting on: TESO Next Flop: Planetside 2 Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
I share the same cocerns as the OP. One of the reasons I am weary of this game, even though I still plan to get it as I am sure I will get my money's worth, is replay value. If I can't chase the "carrot on a stick" I will have a hard time sticking with the game. In Sandboxes it works, because I can still chase it but in other ways then I would a themepark. But since GW2 is more of a themepark than a Sandbox I will need some form of progression to keep me playing. GW1 held me for maybe a month with the progression it had, and most of that was focused on pvp.
The one thing that I feel like might keep me playing is the RvR style pvp as long as there are leaderboards for the week,ect like DAOC had. In reality though to get my MMO fix I will be playing that + SWTOR or whatever else I am playing at that point.
Comments
Longlevity of a single game isn't the problem... all those games are more or less the same... Most people grew tired of these games because theyn are all using exactly the same ingredients.... With all the innovation in GW2 its ready to break this trend
Played EQ and DAoC for 3 years, WoW for 2 years and all later MMO's for considerably less.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
From Arenanet's perspective it doesn't matter if you play the game for 1 month or 10 months as long as you find it good enough to buy the next expansion. They don't have a strong motive to add a lot of time consuming stuff - just fun stuff. I like that. One of the benefits of having no subsciption fee.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Despite playing FFXI, and WoW for over a year each, do you know what online game I've played the longest?
Team Fortress 2.
I don't think a game really needs to keep you working for it to be enjoyable. I'm starting to see the achievements in subscription based games as just an "itch". You scratch it and it feels better temporarily, but then it returns somewhere else. It's just a way to keep you playing/paying.
And what is not repetetive in the games you like? all those you mention have a repetive gameplay. Raiding is the most repetetive soul destroying form of gaming ive ever done and no gaurantees you get what you want. sure you have a goal, but someone keeps moving the goalposts. In GW2 you and everyone else in your group thats does a dungeon gets something so nobody is left out. You have 2 typres of pvp with GW2.
Structured: you go in at lvl cap with every skill unlocked
World PvP: you fight against other players with what you have at the lvl you got your character to and only with skils you have unlocked.
You really cant get more choice than that really.
The only gripe I see that I cant really faulter you for is end game, but tbh I dont want to be grinding for gear all the time like other games do it. We need to move away from that crap.
And lets look at the lvl cap a moment, 80!! how many games have rolled out with a lvl cap of 80? if your done at lvl 80 and really adventured within 3 weeks, then you seriously need to look at life beyond the pc.
It has crafting:
Weaponsmith - craft melee weapons, such as swords, axes and hammers.
Huntsman - craft ranged weapons like bows and pistol, as well as torches and warhorns.
Artificer - craft magical weapons such as staves and scepters.
Armorsmith - craft heavy armor pieces.
Leatherworker - craft medium armor pieces.
Tailor - craft light armor pieces.
Jewelcrafter - craft jewelry, such as rings and necklaces.
Cook - prepare food which characters can eat for temporary combat buffs.
It has Races, Professions, Skills and Traits just like any of the other games you play.
Sound like an excuse for you to diss a game before you even had a chance to let it get on the shelf.
Why just not follow DAOC and use a simple realm rank system. I dont even need rewards for it, just some kind of system to determine your skill and dedication to PVP. This applies only to WvWvW when arena pvp is boring as hell.
But even if we dont get that i think the PVP will make the endgame endless. The feeling of hiding in a gate tower ambushing unknowing bypassers can keep any true MMO pvp fan intrested for many years :P. God i miss that feeling from daoc. *goes to youtube and watches old frontier vids*
Peace!
GW2 is the kind of game where you'd make your own goals. Stop expecting the developer to make "goals" for you. There's a lot of freedom in this game.
GW2 will have a server ranking system for WvWvW. That's how you will be matched up with your two opponents each time a new match starts. I'm pretty sure they will take win/loss, participation, and maybe some other criteria into account to create each server's ranking.
RPG's need to be like long-running tv series that we can depend on to enjoy indefinetly that's being talked about by everyone for the foreseeable future. Besides, to stand the test of time is THE major marking criteria in most entertainment, afterall.
I think in GW2 case, because it is B2P, it will be quicker to level up without really intending to speed through the game for a lot of regular mmo players. Additionally A LOT rides on how repeatable the DYNAMIC EVENT PvE content succeeds at being. Finally as GW2 is themepark, themepark is always lower than sandbox potentially has from overall design from first principles.
That all said, GW2 does seem to be ingeniously layered to extend playing time and keep fun in different game modes and activities fresh and avoid forcing players to thrash any one objective in game to "never again" status.
story, dynamic content, world-building, real alts, side-kicking should be a big help in PvE
Several modes of seriously designed PvP with WvWvW for a more sandy end-game too.
It looks like they have covered most bases so, formula and ingredients are high quality, just depends on how good the cooking is.
http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1014633/Classic-Game-Postmortem
The main problem with longevity in a game has one fundamental problem: You can not make everyone happy all the time.
I have been playing mmo's since UO, and someone always complains about something. I started UO before renny came out, and as soon as it hit all the complaints that flooded forums and blogs and such about game companys catering to carebear gamers, was on a massive scale. Same goes for all the "carebears" flooding right back in response.
To many people just dont know how to go with the flow. While it made the game exciting to never know what or who will pop up behind ya, I was equally excited to be able to farm or do a dungeon without having to always worry about what gank squad might roll up. We need to learn all over again how to find the fun in whats available. When there were only a couple of choices of what mmo you could play we all tried to find enjoyment in the end-game and content available reguardless of what it actually offered.
I am for all intents and purposes a "carebear" when it comes to gaming. I dont really like to PvP, but will on my terms, I love arena PvP especially in WoW(to all the flamers and trollers, yes I know WoW pvp sucks arena sucks battlegrounds suck blah blah blah) I approched arena in the same way we all should with any content, I did it to have fun(i know crazy) while I wanted to win it was secondary. My true goal was to live longer in that match then I did in an earlier one, to me that was fun. I want to PLAY a game not work a game.
I played UO from vanilla till Mondains legacy, I played WoW from vanilla till two weeks before the cata release. While I hated alot of what they did to WoW I just respeced and went about playing.
The point is I believe as long as GW2 doesnt become all about the numbers and a gear grind, all of us will be keeping GW populated for a long time to come if we do all we can to find the fun it what is offered instead of complaining constantly about how its not our idea of a perfect game with perfect content.
All Murlocs must die horrible, painful, bloody deaths!
Imo GW2 won't suffer from longevity problems.. basically it has all the necessary ingredients for it (unlike some other big-name mmos that I won't mention).
If TF2 or LoL can have great longevity I don't see why GW2 wouldn't. As I said so many times, story-based gameplay goes directly against longevity. Thankfully GW2 has so much to offer apart from the personal story.
I'd like to see emphasis on cosmetics, but I also don't want armor to be useless. It should be somewhat helpful but not fully dependant.
I think the longest I played a MMO after 5 yrs of EQ was like 2 months. Since then I play console games, and average like 1 new game per month. ONly a couple of games I have been able to play more than a month or so straight, and even those I get tired of.
I havent been an MMO gamer in like 5 yrs now, so hope the burn out is gone.
That is the thing though with gaming. Older gamers are replaced by newer ones.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
Longevity is down to a combination of content and finding a Guild to commit too. The content needs to good enough to obviously want to enter the carrot on a stick race and accomplish something, but it's the commitment you make to your Guild that keeps you playing when you don't really want to.
Edit: Atleast that is in my experience.
Some thoughts:
People love novelty, which is why ‘app’ games for phones and Facebook are popular atm. You can buy them cheap so you don’t feel cheated if they’re crap and they’re very accessible.
When WOW came out, it introduced new MMO gamers to stuff they’d never seen before – a huge novelty factor. These features (silly hats, crafting, holiday events, titles, etc) were added fun because of the social element attached. These are now commonplace in MMOs.
PvP makes for great longevity – nothing compares the degree of variance introduced and sense of achievement felt when beating a ‘real’ player. Hence the success of FPS games. For me, PvP in MMOs is greatly underdeveloped and all too often an afterthought due to the balancing it requires. There’s often only one or two battle formats and the environments are very limited.
Fun is key, but since all MMOs are similar by definition, if you don’t enjoy the fundamentals, the genre’s realistically dead for you. This is why I’ve been hoping for a 3PS MMO fantasy game that introduces a more interactive, fun element to the game whilst retaining the depth.
Aryas
Playing: Ableton Live 8
~ ragequitcancelsubdeletegamesmashcomputerkillself ~
Longevity is only a problem because games are poorly made/dumbed down to suit the masses. No wonder you get bored to quickly. A little complexity would go a long way. It would of course create a less casual game, boohoo(less sales).
WOW,eq2,Vanguard,WAR,LOTRO,AOC,Rift Aion, SWTOR, TERA.
Currently playing GW2.
You dont only grow tired of a certain game, but also of a whole genre if it does not innovate...
GW2 will be the game that brings the well neeeded Innovation back to the genre, and thats where the longlevity of a game comes from.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
I don't say this to be funny...but Guild Wars doesn't have an unsubscribe button. Once you buy Guild Wars, you actually never have to experience that moment when you "unsub". A GW player can go weeks or months without touching the game, but can still consider themselves a Guild Wars player. To play again, you simply log back in.
The Guild Wars community is one of the strongest I've ever seen for a game and Guild Wars 2 is shaping up to be even stronger. In my opinion, it seems to be one of those rare games that transcend what's happening on the screen. If longevity hasn't been a problem for Guild Wars 1, I don't see it being an issue for it's sequel either.
I don't need a price tag to feel justified of playing a game. I play games solely based on their gameplay. I play 15 years old games, because they are that good or haven't been replaced by new ones and I have played GW1 for more than 5 years. I don't need a constant stream of new content to feel satisfied, if the game is good.
Given I am a pvp player at heart, any game with a good multiplayer can hold me for long. However if the game is played and has lived its life for me, I have no hard feelings quitting it.
For some players, mmos should take forever, literally. Thinking if they cannot keep you busy all the time, something is wrong. I like to play other games too, or do something else, which consumes a lot of my time. Hence I don't see the problem.
Longevity is a good concern, it is what have been the largest problem with most MMOs the last few years.
I have however spent years in the first game, so ANET can at least get me hooked.
But can DEs hook us up for years or not? Noone really knows that yet.
Of course the same thing goes for TOR, TSW and any other releasing MMO. The gear treadmill doesn't really help either, most of the games that people got bored of fast have raids and similar stuff in them.
Having something to work on depends as much on the player as the game. People quit a game not because there is nothing else to do, but rather, because there is nothing else that they want to do, or perhaps that the only things that that you still want to do are gated off by having to do a bunch of grinding to get there. No matter how much content a game has, if you don't like any of it, you'll get bored and quit very quickly.
WvWvW. Explorable mode mode dynamic dungeons. Mini games. farming for traits. Farming for unique weapon & armor skins. Doing World raids with friends and guild mates. Running more of the 1500 dynamic events I missed on the way to level cap.
This is jsut a sampling of content I will be doing at level cap, I jsut dont find this argument that there is nothing to do conventional. There is tons of content to do but just because there is no 25 man raids in the WoW mode people start freaking out. I posit that there is more to do in the GW2 model of MMO gaming then WoW/Rift/ToR. If you want to be blinded by your themepark goggles then be my guess, I am looking forward to the myriad of things to do in GW2.
Everything you need to know about Elder Scrolls Online
Playing: GW2
Waiting on: TESO
Next Flop: Planetside 2
Best MMO of all time: Asheron's Call - The first company to recreate AC will be the next greatest MMO.
I share the same cocerns as the OP. One of the reasons I am weary of this game, even though I still plan to get it as I am sure I will get my money's worth, is replay value. If I can't chase the "carrot on a stick" I will have a hard time sticking with the game. In Sandboxes it works, because I can still chase it but in other ways then I would a themepark. But since GW2 is more of a themepark than a Sandbox I will need some form of progression to keep me playing. GW1 held me for maybe a month with the progression it had, and most of that was focused on pvp.
The one thing that I feel like might keep me playing is the RvR style pvp as long as there are leaderboards for the week,ect like DAOC had. In reality though to get my MMO fix I will be playing that + SWTOR or whatever else I am playing at that point.