Why are puzzle games addicting? Because you are constantly playing a different puzzle and the puzzle difficulty is constantly growing. Why are RTS and FPS games addicting? Because either you are fighting against an extremely superb, intelligent, diverse, and challenging UI or because you are playing against somebody else. Here, we are mainly discussing replayability in PvE so playing against somebody else can't be considered. Here, we are discussing an MMORPG, so superior AI that constantly brings about new challenges isn't a possibility and therefore can't be considered. Here, we are discussing an MMORPG, so "different puzzles with growing difficulty" don't come by. Once you understand how the game's combat system and AI work, there is very little which changes to keep that experience addicting.
An MMORPG can't rely on its content alone to keep players plugged in.
So your argument is that MMORPGs have to have shit content because that's a feature of MMORPGs, so that artificial incentives about increasing power is the only way to justify playing them for any period of time?
I... think that this is why I don't play MMORPGs very long, generally.
Because I'm not the world's hugest fan of content made out of concentrated crap, and I'm smart enough to realize that all these carrots are just that. Carrots. Carrots in a pile of shit.
Hopefully GW2's content isn't completely shit like your average MMORPG gameplay... and at least it isn't a very extremely narrow subset of complete shit, just like most game's endgame is, where I can only do a very small, specific set of actions to increase my power, the only reason to play the game.
I'd much rather play a game where I can find challenges and amuse myself with exploration.
Your methodology of gaming only really appeals to the gamers who fall under the 'achiever' category... it doesn't help the killer category (Where's the fun in killing the same mob you already beat, repeatedly, just for the hope of prizes?), the explorer category (PLEASE don't try to convince me that doing the exact same thing repeatedly does anything for explorers), or the socializer category (Other than 'Well, everybody at max level is stuck doing the same crap as me, and we're bored out of our minds, so talking to each other is our only hope for maintained sanity')
So I get it. You're 98% achiever, and that's your whole reason for MMORPGs. Some of us like PvP, exploring, and hanging out with other people. I love being able to go back to early areas and meaningfully help lower level people out, like friends I convinced to play, or alts of friends already in the game.
We've already established that this game is designed for me, and people like me, and not really designed for people like you.
The ONLY problem we're having is the part where you're assuming everybody else is like you. That's sort of self-centered, isn't it?
(edit: I had arguments for all the rest of what you said, but realized the only important part is curing you of the idea that all gamers are exactly like you. Okay. Fine, just one little thing. When I said 'a nod towards realism', the correct answer is not 'It's not realistic like Legolas and Luke Skywalker'. They're not realistic. They're fantasy. Just saying. )
What I meant to say is that MMORPG's can't depend on the amount of content alone to keep people interested. They need some incentive to keep people running that content. The fun factor eventually tones down as you learn the game's mechanics and understand how the game's limited AI operates. A puzzle game, on the other hand, keeps you hooked as it constantly provides different and unique challenges, things that regular MMORPG AI can't do.
The incentives to run content in GW2, as I have explained numerous times already in this thread, are pretty much the same incentives that exist in any MMORPG, or any game for that matter. Because it's fun is the primary reason. Does "fun factor" eventually tone down? Yes, that's why no game lasts forever in a static form...they will be adding new things constantly. Other reasons include:
-Horizontal progression of skills and traits to customize your character and play style.
-Achievements, collections, and crafting.
-Playing with your friends that are lower level, or helping out some newbs and teaching them the ropes.
-Experiencing new things, and creating persistent effects in the shared world.
-Exploration. Seeing areas and events that you haven't yet seen.
Please stop claiming to have a concern that there will be no incentives unless you can refute all of the above incentives with factual (not subjective preference) arguements. There are many incentives to run content in the game, I probably even left a few out.
During the leveling process, sure you will become stronger. With scaling, however, that progression won't be felt as much and will feel rather irrelevant. At cap, I have seen a couple of posts stating that people will quickly get the gear max stats (Just like Guild Wars 1) and then progress exclusively in aesthetics, gear-wise.
"Won't be felt as much" is an entirely subjective statement. I would contend that it will be felt MORE. one-shotting low level content doesn't make me feel powerful, personally. What makes me feel powerful is taking on challenging content and finding a way to succeed through skill and emergent play. This means that I will want to pit myself against every bit of content in the game, because it provides constant opportunities to challenge myself and learn / improve. How do you know you have the perfect build for a particular class until you've butted up against every bit of content? Maybe it will turn out that some mobs or some dungeon boss will require a totally new way of thinking. I'll be free to discover all of it at max level without worrying about content being walled off arbitrarily.
You are correct that the intention is for players to be able to get "max stats" gear relatively easily in the regular progression of the game. The point is that progression is horizontal after that, rather than vertical...the reasons for this difference, and the benefits it provides, have been discussed at length. Is it going to be everyone's cup of tea? Surely not. But a lot of people very much like the idea of getting rid of the pointless gear treadmill and barriers to content and playing with friends that exist in a WoW-formula vertical progression system. Also, be aware that horizontal gear progression is not just about look (skins), there will also be stat differences (in other words, there won't be one single "best" gear...just best gear for YOU) to allow players to further tailor their character to their play style.
Also, as I mentioned in a previous post, horizontal progression provides real, meaningful diversity...rather than everyone being exactly the same at each tier of the ladder.
Progression in player skill is simply to difficult to debate. Some people may consider WoW a game that requires little to no player skill at all when in reality a hardcore PvPer plays far more intelligently and efficiently than your average PvPer even if they have the same stats, gear, etc. Again though, I can't stress this enough. RPG's were not made with equality in mind. One player should be more powerful than the other, always, unless they decide to copy each other in every aspect of their build, level, equipment, etc.
The fact that the amount of player skill present in a particular game is difficult to measure doesn't change the fact that it's a legitimate progression mechanism. Player skill will play a larger factor in GW2 because of the way the mechanics and systems are set up. More skilled and more knowledgeable players will be able to stand out from the crowd and build a reputation in the community. That's real progression, even if it's not objectively measurable by some number scale.
Yes, Guild Wars 2 is an MMORPG, and is therefore constantly growing. My concern is not about the amount of content, but the purpose of doing them.
See my first response in this post.
These are legit concerns because they are things that also happened in Guild Wars 1 which I feel have remain untouched.
GW1 was an extremely successful game and has a large, dedicated, and long-term community. It seems like maybe your "concerns" don't end up amounting to anything other than your personal preferences. Also, GW2 is a completely different game from GW1. Even if they share some things in common, they will be expressed different and have different effects because those common elements are part of very different overall games.
No, my point is that MMORPG's need an incentive to play because the gameplay's fun factor tones down after you begin understanding how the AI operates and after you shake that "new" feeling off from the gameplay. Please do understand that I am talking about the PvE aspects of the game.
No, my point is that MMORPG's need an incentive to play because the gameplay's fun factor tones down after you begin understanding how the AI operates and after you shake that "new" feeling off from the gameplay. Please do understand that I am talking about the PvE aspects of the game.
No. YOU need an incentive that involves bigger numbers.
That's your personal thing. Stop projecting.
MY incentive to play is other people, exploration, and figuring out how to play better.
I'm sorry, but I've never yet played a dungeon that dropped +1 friend off of the boss (Rare drop, of course) You want an itemized grind. Fine, that's cool. We all get it. Most MMORPGs are designed exactly for you.
People like Fozzik and I (and many of the people interested in GW2 if you read their posts) are looking for something different. We've exp[lained what it is, and how GW2 is supposed to deliver... and you immediately answer (EVERY SINGLE TIME) with an argument that boils down to '... but it's not what =I= want to see, and because I don't understand your motivations, I believe they don't exist. Only my motivations count'
I understand it does nothing for you. It leaves you cold. That's cool.
Considering your tastes, I'm perfectly happy that GW2 has no longevity for you, because they'd have to tailor the game for you at my expense.
I'm kind of happy at least ONE company thought 'Let's design a game for Meowhead, because Stealthbr? He just isn't our kind of guy'. Thank you Arenanet.
I feel that I don't like ArenaNet's view on progression. I believe achievements, titles, item skins, etc. all feel to artificial as a form of progression because they make little difference in the overall gameplay. Likewise, I believe socializing with friends and exploring the game world are fun, but utlimately fall short in the replayability factor if they don't really reward the player in more game-changing ways. I never really understood why some Guild Wars players could farm missions, or vanquish entire areas, or run to every corner of the map just to get a title or an achievement. It seems so irrelevant to the actual gameplay.. Oh well.
Just to be clear, the ONLY progression and incentive that we are really talking about being missing from GW2 is the continued vertical stat progression at max level...which is honestly the most pointless and meaningless form of progression that these games ever offer, and really provides me with no incentive at all to change my play style and become a raider. The mobs get more stats right along with the players...so you never really get more powerful.
Diversity and choices that matter is a much deeper and more meaningful form of progression than a +1 to you and +1 to the mob at each tier of content.
Originally posted by stealthbr Originally posted by Fozzik
I feel that I don't like ArenaNet's view on progression. I believe achievements, titles, item skins, etc. all feel to artificial as a form of progression because they make little difference in the overall gameplay. Likewise, I believe socializing with friends and exploring the game world are fun, but utlimately fall short in the replayability factor if they don't really reward the player in more game-changing ways. I never really understood why some Guild Wars players could farm missions, or vanquish entire areas, or run to every corner of the map just to get a title or an achievement. It seems so irrelevant to the actual gameplay.. Oh well.
Make little difference in overall game play? You are completely backwards in your thinking. Stat progression is what makes no difference at all in overall game play... you get +1, the mob gets +1...everything is exactly the same and the progression means nothing other than a little number that increments ever so often.
Horizontal progression of skills, traits... customizing the way your character plays...those actually DO matter to game play in a real way. You will literally be able to change the way you play the game by equipping different skills and gear that you gained through horizontal progression.
Make little difference in overall game play? You are completely backwards in your thinking. Stat progression is what makes no difference at all in overall game play... you get +1, the mob gets +1...everything is exactly the same and the progression means nothing other than a little number that increments ever so often.
Horizontal progression of skills, traits... customizing the way your character plays...those actually DO matter to game play in a real way. You will literally be able to change the way you play the game by equipping different skills and gear that you gained through horizontal progression.
Horizontal and vertical progression are not mutually exclusive. Skins, achievements, titles, skins make little difference in overall gameplay because they don't change anything. Getting better gear and constantly making your character more powerful changes everything. Those orcs you couldn't hold off when you had that rusty, old, and inaccurate wooden bow now are no match for your magically-imbued elven bow.
Originally posted by stealthbr Horizontal and vertical progression are not mutually exclusive. Skins, achievements, titles, skins make little difference in overall gameplay because they don't change anything. Getting better gear and constantly making your character more powerful changes everything. Those orcs you couldn't hold off when you had that rusty, old, and inaccurate wooden bow now are no match for your magically-imbued elven bow.
Again, you're completely ignoring the many elements that actually do make a difference, and just talking about the ones that make your point.
Skins, achievements, and titles may not make a difference to game play...but gear with different stats, different skills, different weapons, and different traits certainly do.
Those orcs that you couldn't hold off at tier 1 don't matter at all when you're tier 20 in a WoW-formula game. Sure, you can go one shot them with your increased stats, but in what way is that fun or in any way an expression of power? Beating up on weaker things doesn't make one powerful.
The tier 20 orcs are exactly as hard to kill when you're tier 20 as the tier 2 orcs were when you were tier 2. What changed about your game play? You got bigger numbers, the mobs got bigger numbers...the game play stayed exactly the same.
I think that no matter how well it is explained, there is no getting to some people and that's fine. The thread was about naming reasons a person is hyped. I personally have no problem answering any questions or batting understandings back and forth as long as the other party has an actual interest and is willing to discuss. I answered Stealth to the best of my knowledge while also keeping in mind that his concerns are not invalid and I can see the where I thought he was coming from.
After reading what I missed out on after my last post I am left wondering why the two that clearly aren't for the game, are still here or came in the first place. The forums can be a good place to get some questions answered or to hear from another perspective if you are willing to read what is there. The questions have been answered and the concerns have been addressed and still there is no back and forth other than baiting from the looks of it. Do yourselves a favor and either block them or add their names to your personal list of people to not respond to. I do enjoy reading the other point of view so I personally try to avoid blocking people I don't agree with, but some there is just no talking to. Anyways I thought Roman, Fozz, and meowhead have pretty much said all that can be said regarding the off topic of this discussion.
You might find this surprising, but some people like debating. It's healthy for the mind, keeps us active. Never did I even state if I'm getting Guild Wars 2 or not. The point of these discussions is to bring out different perspectives on facets of the game and see if people can come up with meaningful arguments to defend their position or to understand and agree with the views of others.
Obviousely I wouldn't find it surprising at all if you bothered to read my post. I clearly made a point that I have no problem discussing anything and I was seeing your point and answering your concerns. And you are absolutely correct, the point is to bring different perspectives. The problem is that you have been repeating the same argument for pages now. It's not a discussion when talking to a wall. It is clear that you do not agree with the views of others on this topic because you have clearly shown you are unwilling to accept that the game is designed in a way that requires a different understanding on what can actually be fun. Instead you keep repeating that all games need better gear and better stats in order for it to not only have meaning, but for people to enjoy it. Others, including me, have given pretty thorough examples of why they feel that it isn't the case.
Lastly in regards getting the game, I was actually referring to SuperXeno89 more so than you because his posts have been more attack and bash than conversational. When you word things as a provocation and others return, initially, with honest and clear answers it is a discussion. But repeating yourself over and over and telling people their ideas are wrong, then it no longer is a discussion. After reading your posts, I think it's safe to assume you really have no interest in the game and are only here to tell others how wrong they are for wanting to play something that makes no sence. The game is what it is and some people will find enjoyment in the differences alone that GW2 does from the other titles out there. Not all but some. You are basically saying that the core design and philosophy of the team is the opposite of what you want in a game while others have repeatedly said that's fine there are other games out there that cater to your needs. Nothing wrong with thtat.
Again, you're completely ignoring the many elements that actually do make a difference, and just talking about the ones that make your point.
Skins, achievements, and titles may not make a difference to game play...but gear with different stats, different skills, different weapons, and different traits certainly do.
Those orcs that you couldn't hold off at tier 1 don't matter at all when you're tier 20 in a WoW-formula game. Sure, you can go one shot them with your increased stats, but in what way is that fun or in any way an expression of power? Beating up on weaker things doesn't make one powerful.
The tier 20 orcs are exactly as hard to kill when you're tier 20 as the tier 2 orcs were when you were tier 2. What changed about your game play? You got bigger numbers, the mobs got bigger numbers...the game play stayed exactly the same.
I don't wish for the game to have less emphasis on horizontal progression. I simply hoped ArenaNet would discover a way of maintaining item progression for max level players without necessarily turning it into an item grind, for I still think it is an important element to retain players. This may be a far stretch, but if an MMORPG could capture the way players deal with item progression in Oblivion it would be perfect. I know this probably stems from the fact that Oblivion is a single-player game and I understand that online games automatically lead to competition and therefore whatever means it takes for one to get more powerful than the rest, yet I still think it's possible. Suffice to say, I am dissapointed that they are flat out removing *vertical* item progression from max level players (atleast from what I have heard).
- All characters able to perform all roles. It's becoming one of my basic requirements in a MMO. It's, for example, the main reason I'm not going to play TOR.
- No vertical progression (specially in PvP). Which means no stat inflation, no trivializing of content by obtaining gear for PvE, no large inherent gear-based handicap in PvP.
- A fairly hardcore "no grief" mentality. PvP is not available in the leveling zones, and the team actually looked at most forms of non-PvP griefing and took steps to make them hard or outright impossible.
- No penalties at all to being in a group. Other MMOs usually have reasons to avoid other players in the form of reduced rewards while farming/leveling/grinding/etc. GW2 will make all those activities more efficient in groups, so there is no reason to avoid other players.
- All benefits of playing in a group available just by tagging together, even without formally forming a group. People can play together even if they don't ask for a group.
- Individual loot. There should be no loot rolls, thus no loot drama. Bliss.
- "Raiding" is done as dynamic events that take anyone who cares to join and scales with the number of players. No bench, no need to keep spamming the chat looking for a group that will take you. Bliss.
- The really challenging content will apparently be the 5-man instances. Way more in line with how I like difficulty handled (I prefer when the content for large groups is less challenging than the content for small groups or even solo players).
- No factions. Guilds that are not limited to single servers. Players can join as many guilds as they want. Game-wide unique character names. Easy, fast, and apparently free server transfers. No server barriers in Arenas, anyone can play with (or against) anyone else. Thus, no artificial server or faction barrier preventing players from playing with whoever they want.
- Players able to make Arena "rooms" with custom rules, and tools to help making player-run tournaments with custom rules.
GW2 offers a more honest and risky attempt at innovation than anything else coming out on the MMO horizon (with perhaps the exception of Archeage), as cliche as it sounds, and that, in the end, is a good thing for any game you'll play in the future. The list of reasons why I'm excited have already been mentioned several times over since I joined the forums, I just want to play the damn thing.
Comments
So your argument is that MMORPGs have to have shit content because that's a feature of MMORPGs, so that artificial incentives about increasing power is the only way to justify playing them for any period of time?
I... think that this is why I don't play MMORPGs very long, generally.
Because I'm not the world's hugest fan of content made out of concentrated crap, and I'm smart enough to realize that all these carrots are just that. Carrots. Carrots in a pile of shit.
Hopefully GW2's content isn't completely shit like your average MMORPG gameplay... and at least it isn't a very extremely narrow subset of complete shit, just like most game's endgame is, where I can only do a very small, specific set of actions to increase my power, the only reason to play the game.
I'd much rather play a game where I can find challenges and amuse myself with exploration.
Your methodology of gaming only really appeals to the gamers who fall under the 'achiever' category... it doesn't help the killer category (Where's the fun in killing the same mob you already beat, repeatedly, just for the hope of prizes?), the explorer category (PLEASE don't try to convince me that doing the exact same thing repeatedly does anything for explorers), or the socializer category (Other than 'Well, everybody at max level is stuck doing the same crap as me, and we're bored out of our minds, so talking to each other is our only hope for maintained sanity')
So I get it. You're 98% achiever, and that's your whole reason for MMORPGs. Some of us like PvP, exploring, and hanging out with other people. I love being able to go back to early areas and meaningfully help lower level people out, like friends I convinced to play, or alts of friends already in the game.
We've already established that this game is designed for me, and people like me, and not really designed for people like you.
The ONLY problem we're having is the part where you're assuming everybody else is like you. That's sort of self-centered, isn't it?
(edit: I had arguments for all the rest of what you said, but realized the only important part is curing you of the idea that all gamers are exactly like you.
Okay. Fine, just one little thing. When I said 'a nod towards realism', the correct answer is not 'It's not realistic like Legolas and Luke Skywalker'. They're not realistic. They're fantasy. Just saying. 
)
The incentives to run content in GW2, as I have explained numerous times already in this thread, are pretty much the same incentives that exist in any MMORPG, or any game for that matter. Because it's fun is the primary reason. Does "fun factor" eventually tone down? Yes, that's why no game lasts forever in a static form...they will be adding new things constantly. Other reasons include:
-Horizontal progression of skills and traits to customize your character and play style.
-Achievements, collections, and crafting.
-Playing with your friends that are lower level, or helping out some newbs and teaching them the ropes.
-Experiencing new things, and creating persistent effects in the shared world.
-Exploration. Seeing areas and events that you haven't yet seen.
Please stop claiming to have a concern that there will be no incentives unless you can refute all of the above incentives with factual (not subjective preference) arguements. There are many incentives to run content in the game, I probably even left a few out.
"Won't be felt as much" is an entirely subjective statement. I would contend that it will be felt MORE. one-shotting low level content doesn't make me feel powerful, personally. What makes me feel powerful is taking on challenging content and finding a way to succeed through skill and emergent play. This means that I will want to pit myself against every bit of content in the game, because it provides constant opportunities to challenge myself and learn / improve. How do you know you have the perfect build for a particular class until you've butted up against every bit of content? Maybe it will turn out that some mobs or some dungeon boss will require a totally new way of thinking. I'll be free to discover all of it at max level without worrying about content being walled off arbitrarily.
You are correct that the intention is for players to be able to get "max stats" gear relatively easily in the regular progression of the game. The point is that progression is horizontal after that, rather than vertical...the reasons for this difference, and the benefits it provides, have been discussed at length. Is it going to be everyone's cup of tea? Surely not. But a lot of people very much like the idea of getting rid of the pointless gear treadmill and barriers to content and playing with friends that exist in a WoW-formula vertical progression system. Also, be aware that horizontal gear progression is not just about look (skins), there will also be stat differences (in other words, there won't be one single "best" gear...just best gear for YOU) to allow players to further tailor their character to their play style.
Also, as I mentioned in a previous post, horizontal progression provides real, meaningful diversity...rather than everyone being exactly the same at each tier of the ladder.
The fact that the amount of player skill present in a particular game is difficult to measure doesn't change the fact that it's a legitimate progression mechanism. Player skill will play a larger factor in GW2 because of the way the mechanics and systems are set up. More skilled and more knowledgeable players will be able to stand out from the crowd and build a reputation in the community. That's real progression, even if it's not objectively measurable by some number scale.
See my first response in this post.
GW1 was an extremely successful game and has a large, dedicated, and long-term community. It seems like maybe your "concerns" don't end up amounting to anything other than your personal preferences. Also, GW2 is a completely different game from GW1. Even if they share some things in common, they will be expressed different and have different effects because those common elements are part of very different overall games.
No, my point is that MMORPG's need an incentive to play because the gameplay's fun factor tones down after you begin understanding how the AI operates and after you shake that "new" feeling off from the gameplay. Please do understand that I am talking about the PvE aspects of the game.
No. YOU need an incentive that involves bigger numbers.
That's your personal thing. Stop projecting.
MY incentive to play is other people, exploration, and figuring out how to play better.
I'm sorry, but I've never yet played a dungeon that dropped +1 friend off of the boss (Rare drop, of course) You want an itemized grind. Fine, that's cool. We all get it. Most MMORPGs are designed exactly for you.
People like Fozzik and I (and many of the people interested in GW2 if you read their posts) are looking for something different. We've exp[lained what it is, and how GW2 is supposed to deliver... and you immediately answer (EVERY SINGLE TIME) with an argument that boils down to '... but it's not what =I= want to see, and because I don't understand your motivations, I believe they don't exist. Only my motivations count'
I understand it does nothing for you. It leaves you cold. That's cool.
Considering your tastes, I'm perfectly happy that GW2 has no longevity for you, because they'd have to tailor the game for you at my expense.
I'm kind of happy at least ONE company thought 'Let's design a game for Meowhead, because Stealthbr? He just isn't our kind of guy'. Thank you Arenanet.
I feel that I don't like ArenaNet's view on progression. I believe achievements, titles, item skins, etc. all feel to artificial as a form of progression because they make little difference in the overall gameplay. Likewise, I believe socializing with friends and exploring the game world are fun, but utlimately fall short in the replayability factor if they don't really reward the player in more game-changing ways. I never really understood why some Guild Wars players could farm missions, or vanquish entire areas, or run to every corner of the map just to get a title or an achievement. It seems so irrelevant to the actual gameplay.. Oh well.
Well said, Meow.
Just to be clear, the ONLY progression and incentive that we are really talking about being missing from GW2 is the continued vertical stat progression at max level...which is honestly the most pointless and meaningless form of progression that these games ever offer, and really provides me with no incentive at all to change my play style and become a raider. The mobs get more stats right along with the players...so you never really get more powerful.
Diversity and choices that matter is a much deeper and more meaningful form of progression than a +1 to you and +1 to the mob at each tier of content.
Make little difference in overall game play? You are completely backwards in your thinking. Stat progression is what makes no difference at all in overall game play... you get +1, the mob gets +1...everything is exactly the same and the progression means nothing other than a little number that increments ever so often.
Horizontal progression of skills, traits... customizing the way your character plays...those actually DO matter to game play in a real way. You will literally be able to change the way you play the game by equipping different skills and gear that you gained through horizontal progression.
Horizontal and vertical progression are not mutually exclusive. Skins, achievements, titles, skins make little difference in overall gameplay because they don't change anything. Getting better gear and constantly making your character more powerful changes everything. Those orcs you couldn't hold off when you had that rusty, old, and inaccurate wooden bow now are no match for your magically-imbued elven bow.
Again, you're completely ignoring the many elements that actually do make a difference, and just talking about the ones that make your point.
Skins, achievements, and titles may not make a difference to game play...but gear with different stats, different skills, different weapons, and different traits certainly do.
Those orcs that you couldn't hold off at tier 1 don't matter at all when you're tier 20 in a WoW-formula game. Sure, you can go one shot them with your increased stats, but in what way is that fun or in any way an expression of power? Beating up on weaker things doesn't make one powerful.
The tier 20 orcs are exactly as hard to kill when you're tier 20 as the tier 2 orcs were when you were tier 2. What changed about your game play? You got bigger numbers, the mobs got bigger numbers...the game play stayed exactly the same.
Obviousely I wouldn't find it surprising at all if you bothered to read my post. I clearly made a point that I have no problem discussing anything and I was seeing your point and answering your concerns. And you are absolutely correct, the point is to bring different perspectives. The problem is that you have been repeating the same argument for pages now. It's not a discussion when talking to a wall. It is clear that you do not agree with the views of others on this topic because you have clearly shown you are unwilling to accept that the game is designed in a way that requires a different understanding on what can actually be fun. Instead you keep repeating that all games need better gear and better stats in order for it to not only have meaning, but for people to enjoy it. Others, including me, have given pretty thorough examples of why they feel that it isn't the case.
Lastly in regards getting the game, I was actually referring to SuperXeno89 more so than you because his posts have been more attack and bash than conversational. When you word things as a provocation and others return, initially, with honest and clear answers it is a discussion. But repeating yourself over and over and telling people their ideas are wrong, then it no longer is a discussion. After reading your posts, I think it's safe to assume you really have no interest in the game and are only here to tell others how wrong they are for wanting to play something that makes no sence. The game is what it is and some people will find enjoyment in the differences alone that GW2 does from the other titles out there. Not all but some. You are basically saying that the core design and philosophy of the team is the opposite of what you want in a game while others have repeatedly said that's fine there are other games out there that cater to your needs. Nothing wrong with thtat.
RIP Jimmy "The Rev" Sullivan and Paul Gray.
I don't wish for the game to have less emphasis on horizontal progression. I simply hoped ArenaNet would discover a way of maintaining item progression for max level players without necessarily turning it into an item grind, for I still think it is an important element to retain players. This may be a far stretch, but if an MMORPG could capture the way players deal with item progression in Oblivion it would be perfect. I know this probably stems from the fact that Oblivion is a single-player game and I understand that online games automatically lead to competition and therefore whatever means it takes for one to get more powerful than the rest, yet I still think it's possible. Suffice to say, I am dissapointed that they are flat out removing *vertical* item progression from max level players (atleast from what I have heard).
Why I think GW2 is the game for me:
- All characters able to perform all roles. It's becoming one of my basic requirements in a MMO. It's, for example, the main reason I'm not going to play TOR.
- No vertical progression (specially in PvP). Which means no stat inflation, no trivializing of content by obtaining gear for PvE, no large inherent gear-based handicap in PvP.
- A fairly hardcore "no grief" mentality. PvP is not available in the leveling zones, and the team actually looked at most forms of non-PvP griefing and took steps to make them hard or outright impossible.
- No penalties at all to being in a group. Other MMOs usually have reasons to avoid other players in the form of reduced rewards while farming/leveling/grinding/etc. GW2 will make all those activities more efficient in groups, so there is no reason to avoid other players.
- All benefits of playing in a group available just by tagging together, even without formally forming a group. People can play together even if they don't ask for a group.
- Individual loot. There should be no loot rolls, thus no loot drama. Bliss.
- "Raiding" is done as dynamic events that take anyone who cares to join and scales with the number of players. No bench, no need to keep spamming the chat looking for a group that will take you. Bliss.
- The really challenging content will apparently be the 5-man instances. Way more in line with how I like difficulty handled (I prefer when the content for large groups is less challenging than the content for small groups or even solo players).
- No factions. Guilds that are not limited to single servers. Players can join as many guilds as they want. Game-wide unique character names. Easy, fast, and apparently free server transfers. No server barriers in Arenas, anyone can play with (or against) anyone else. Thus, no artificial server or faction barrier preventing players from playing with whoever they want.
- Players able to make Arena "rooms" with custom rules, and tools to help making player-run tournaments with custom rules.
- Playable engineers that can create turrets
*points to past 14 pages*
Yeah, that.
GW2 offers a more honest and risky attempt at innovation than anything else coming out on the MMO horizon (with perhaps the exception of Archeage), as cliche as it sounds, and that, in the end, is a good thing for any game you'll play in the future. The list of reasons why I'm excited have already been mentioned several times over since I joined the forums, I just want to play the damn thing.
Norn Guardian, day 1. Woot!