Wait, this is a game-breaker? Isn't every MMO like this? Except they don't have "mirrored" classes, they have the SAME classes for each faction.
Exactly...lol people find so much to complain about. If it was the opposite people will be complaining how it is not balanced lmao.
To expand on that point... You could produce 20 different classes, all with identical attacks and spells, give them different names, animations and descriptions. And people would complain that the some of the classes are OP and the game is not balanced.
I found the mirrored classes to only be an issue if you jumped from one side of the mirror directly to the other. Let me explain:
In my first beta, I did Jedi Knight to 17, then jumped straight to Sith Warrior. I was very disappointed by the Sith Warrior. All I could focus on was that it was the Jedi Knight reskinned.
However, when I came back for my 2nd beta, I really enjoyed the Warrior. In the end, it was story I really cared about. If mirroring means they are able to perfect gameplay easier, then I am all for it.
Yeah, it sucks that there is a bit of a bait and switch. If you don't expect the mirroring, it is really disappointing. Once I knew it was there, I didn't really care.
I agree about the disappointment; it's the gameplay side of taking Soldier as the 2nd character after a Smuggler. Same starter area over again takes a bit of the shininess away.
However, wouldn't that be a perfect opportunity to take the "other" advanced class at Level 10?
Like, if I were to do the IA first, and take the stealth AC, then playing a Smuggler/Gunslinger should do the trick, no?
Speaking of.. Has anyone compared and/or confirmed any differences either stat wise or dps/att. speed wise between each of the weaponsets?
I played an Operative and Scoundrel to the same levels, and part of me thought that the Operative's Rifle base damage was a little higher than that of the Scoundrel.. I mean, I know that mirroring the classes was a cut to balance, but did they just copy and paste all the weapons to mirror each other as well?
I think the Commando's machine gun weapon looks cool, but is there a difference between it and say the 2 pistols of a mercenary?
seems to me that fire rates balance them out. Pistols cycle faster via standard fire while rifles do more damage per hit. I could be wrong, though.
After doing a little research on Torhead.com (don't know how "official" it is) but the Scoundrel Scatter Gun and Operative Vibroknife have a min-max base shift.. So while one has a slightly lower floor or min (scattergun) the other has a lower roof or max (vibroknife)..
It's a very small difference but it makes me pretty happy that they at LEAST decided to use different yet balanced techniques on the weaponsets of the mirrors..
If you’ve played one class for an extended period of time and feel like checking out how the other side lives, it’s a real shame to coincidentally pick your class mirror on the opposing faction and realize you already know how to play the character down to the tiniest detail. I really can’t stress enough how identical things are.
Ok so let me get this straight through an example. You play a bounty hunter Powertech with tank spec to level 50, do all kinds of stuff then one day say " hey, I want to roll a republic charcter". So you go onto teh server, create a trooper, pick the vanguard class, and then spec tank, then complain because you rolled the only possible mirror and want to blame BW for limiting choices?
Even though you could have rolled any ot he other three republic classes? Even though if you picked the trooper class you can picked the commando AC? Even though if you picked the Vanguard AC you could have specced damage?
Give me a break! Theres plenty of ways you could have deviated from picking the the exact mirrored class. I call BS!
And BTW, for the earlier comment there is actually 8 classes. For example a sith inquistor can become an assassin or a sorcerer. each of the AC have specs that causes you be able to do one of two rolls.
A sith assassin plays completely differently then a sith sorcerer. Granted your story line will be the same but those two completely different classes ones a mele who can tank or go rogue dps, the otehr is a spell caster that can go healer or dps.
Speaking of.. Has anyone compared and/or confirmed any differences either stat wise or dps/att. speed wise between each of the weaponsets?
I played an Operative and Scoundrel to the same levels, and part of me thought that the Operative's Rifle base damage was a little higher than that of the Scoundrel.. I mean, I know that mirroring the classes was a cut to balance, but did they just copy and paste all the weapons to mirror each other as well?
I think the Commando's machine gun weapon looks cool, but is there a difference between it and say the 2 pistols of a mercenary?
seems to me that fire rates balance them out. Pistols cycle faster via standard fire while rifles do more damage per hit. I could be wrong, though.
After doing a little research on Torhead.com (don't know how "official" it is) but the Scoundrel Scatter Gun and Operative Vibroknife have a min-max base shift.. So while one has a slightly lower floor or min (scattergun) the other has a lower roof or max (vibroknife)..
It's a very small difference but it makes me pretty happy that they at LEAST decided to use different yet balanced techniques on the weaponsets of the mirrors..
They are for the most part identical except for what I mentioned..
Yep this is true. But even if you pick the mirror base class and even the mirror AC, you still even ahve the option of speccing differently, completely changing how the class plays.
Wait, this is a game-breaker? Isn't every MMO like this? Except they don't have "mirrored" classes, they have the SAME classes for each faction.
DAoC certainly was not mirrored.
Mirrored isnt ok when you basically have 4 classes in the entire game because of it.
THIS^^^^!!!!!! Bingo. I love story, but if that's the only way to diversify the classes in an MMORPG, than Bioware doesn't understand MMORPGs. Keep the story but give us more variety. Even 2 more unique classes would have sealed the deal, preferably I would like more. Maybe in a future expack? Do we even know what kind of roadmap this game will have post launch?
You don't have 4. You have 8. Advanced Classes are full classes. And as it was pointed out, this is absolutely no different than than what most MMOs have per side. The difference here is that at least with these mirrored classes, you get some variation in weapons, armor, and combat animations between the mirrors. In a game like WoW, instead of having mirrored classes, you just have the same classes for the two factions.
And to make the point more relevant to your interests, Elocke, what kind of variation do you get with Guild Wars 2? They'll have what, 8 classes as well? But yeah, in SWTOR it's bad, but it GW2 it's innovative I guess.
/sigh. In GW2 everyone can heal, everyone can tank, everyone can CC, THAT's the difference. Now whether it works for balancing issues and allows them to just throw new classes into the game with each xpack, I don';t know, time will tell.
I guess I just feel for SWTOR, I was expecting different class experiences for each faction, thereby making alt replayability better. Story isn't enough for me with MMORPGs. I need the characters to play differently. Again, my tastes in this category lie with Vanguard:SoH. That game, to me, is the epitome of how to make classes fun and varied and give us LOTS of them.
Seems the author forgot that you choose an advanced class in Swtor at level 10, so you basically just have to choose another path on your mirror class to get a completely different playstyle.
These are identical to their mirror's counterparts as well. Vanguard (Trooper) == Powertech (Bounty Hunter).
Yes, but if you chose one advanced path for Trooper and the different path for the BH then you would have a different set of abilities. It would make playing the mirror class different.
Wait, this is a game-breaker? Isn't every MMO like this? Except they don't have "mirrored" classes, they have the SAME classes for each faction.
DAoC certainly was not mirrored.
Mirrored isnt ok when you basically have 4 classes in the entire game because of it.
THIS^^^^!!!!!! Bingo. I love story, but if that's the only way to diversify the classes in an MMORPG, than Bioware doesn't understand MMORPGs. Keep the story but give us more variety. Even 2 more unique classes would have sealed the deal, preferably I would like more. Maybe in a future expack? Do we even know what kind of roadmap this game will have post launch?
You don't have 4. You have 8. Advanced Classes are full classes. And as it was pointed out, this is absolutely no different than than what most MMOs have per side. The difference here is that at least with these mirrored classes, you get some variation in weapons, armor, and combat animations between the mirrors. In a game like WoW, instead of having mirrored classes, you just have the same classes for the two factions.
And to make the point more relevant to your interests, Elocke, what kind of variation do you get with Guild Wars 2? They'll have what, 8 classes as well? But yeah, in SWTOR it's bad, but it GW2 it's innovative I guess.
/sigh. In GW2 everyone can heal, everyone can tank, everyone can CC, THAT's the difference. Now whether it works for balancing issues and allows them to just throw new classes into the game with each xpack, I don';t know, time will tell.
I guess I just feel for SWTOR, I was expecting different class experiences for each faction, thereby making alt replayability better. Story isn't enough for me with MMORPGs. I need the characters to play differently. Again, my tastes in this category lie with Vanguard:SoH. That game, to me, is the epitome of how to make classes fun and varied and give us LOTS of them.
So if everyone can do as you mentioned isn t that the opitimy of mirrored? Everyone can do everything? Don t get me wrong I can t wait for GW2, this difference is I could care less if someone on another faction is almost exactly how I am, or do I care if anyone can heal or tank etc.
Wait, this is a game-breaker? Isn't every MMO like this? Except they don't have "mirrored" classes, they have the SAME classes for each faction.
DAoC certainly was not mirrored.
Mirrored isnt ok when you basically have 4 classes in the entire game because of it.
THIS^^^^!!!!!! Bingo. I love story, but if that's the only way to diversify the classes in an MMORPG, than Bioware doesn't understand MMORPGs. Keep the story but give us more variety. Even 2 more unique classes would have sealed the deal, preferably I would like more. Maybe in a future expack? Do we even know what kind of roadmap this game will have post launch?
You don't have 4. You have 8. Advanced Classes are full classes. And as it was pointed out, this is absolutely no different than than what most MMOs have per side. The difference here is that at least with these mirrored classes, you get some variation in weapons, armor, and combat animations between the mirrors. In a game like WoW, instead of having mirrored classes, you just have the same classes for the two factions.
And to make the point more relevant to your interests, Elocke, what kind of variation do you get with Guild Wars 2? They'll have what, 8 classes as well? But yeah, in SWTOR it's bad, but it GW2 it's innovative I guess.
/sigh. In GW2 everyone can heal, everyone can tank, everyone can CC, THAT's the difference. Now whether it works for balancing issues and allows them to just throw new classes into the game with each xpack, I don';t know, time will tell.
I guess I just feel for SWTOR, I was expecting different class experiences for each faction, thereby making alt replayability better. Story isn't enough for me with MMORPGs. I need the characters to play differently. Again, my tastes in this category lie with Vanguard:SoH. That game, to me, is the epitome of how to make classes fun and varied and give us LOTS of them.
If you play SW:TOR you will find that all the classes have different story arcs, that is a a lot of game. Mirror classing just means you won't have a class that dominates in PvP destroying the gameplay.
Wait, this is a game-breaker? Isn't every MMO like this? Except they don't have "mirrored" classes, they have the SAME classes for each faction.
DAoC certainly was not mirrored.
Mirrored isnt ok when you basically have 4 classes in the entire game because of it.
THIS^^^^!!!!!! Bingo. I love story, but if that's the only way to diversify the classes in an MMORPG, than Bioware doesn't understand MMORPGs. Keep the story but give us more variety. Even 2 more unique classes would have sealed the deal, preferably I would like more. Maybe in a future expack? Do we even know what kind of roadmap this game will have post launch?
You don't have 4. You have 8. Advanced Classes are full classes. And as it was pointed out, this is absolutely no different than than what most MMOs have per side. The difference here is that at least with these mirrored classes, you get some variation in weapons, armor, and combat animations between the mirrors. In a game like WoW, instead of having mirrored classes, you just have the same classes for the two factions.
And to make the point more relevant to your interests, Elocke, what kind of variation do you get with Guild Wars 2? They'll have what, 8 classes as well? But yeah, in SWTOR it's bad, but it GW2 it's innovative I guess.
/sigh. In GW2 everyone can heal, everyone can tank, everyone can CC, THAT's the difference. Now whether it works for balancing issues and allows them to just throw new classes into the game with each xpack, I don';t know, time will tell.
I guess I just feel for SWTOR, I was expecting different class experiences for each faction, thereby making alt replayability better. Story isn't enough for me with MMORPGs. I need the characters to play differently. Again, my tastes in this category lie with Vanguard:SoH. That game, to me, is the epitome of how to make classes fun and varied and give us LOTS of them.
So if everyone can do as you mentioned isn t that the opitimy of mirrored? Everyone can do everything? Don t get me wrong I can t wait for GW2, this difference is I could care less if someone on another faction is almost exactly how I am, or do I care if anyone can heal or tank etc.
No, that's not mirrored, because the difference is the class itself, while they can fulfill the same roles anyone else can, each class is quite distinct in it's style.
I think some in this thread are confusing this "mirroring" issue. I've only ever seen it ONCE in a game and that's in Warhammer Online. Now I'm seeing it again in SWTOR and the issue here is, at least in WAR the mirrored class didn't really feel the same. Maybe they don't feel the same in SWTOR endgame, but they sure do feel the same up to level 25. I took a sith warrior and a jedi knight to 25 and the combat and feel of the class was exactly the same. That's the issue here.
Wait, this is a game-breaker? Isn't every MMO like this? Except they don't have "mirrored" classes, they have the SAME classes for each faction.
DAoC certainly was not mirrored.
Mirrored isnt ok when you basically have 4 classes in the entire game because of it.
THIS^^^^!!!!!! Bingo. I love story, but if that's the only way to diversify the classes in an MMORPG, than Bioware doesn't understand MMORPGs. Keep the story but give us more variety. Even 2 more unique classes would have sealed the deal, preferably I would like more. Maybe in a future expack? Do we even know what kind of roadmap this game will have post launch?
You don't have 4. You have 8. Advanced Classes are full classes. And as it was pointed out, this is absolutely no different than than what most MMOs have per side. The difference here is that at least with these mirrored classes, you get some variation in weapons, armor, and combat animations between the mirrors. In a game like WoW, instead of having mirrored classes, you just have the same classes for the two factions.
And to make the point more relevant to your interests, Elocke, what kind of variation do you get with Guild Wars 2? They'll have what, 8 classes as well? But yeah, in SWTOR it's bad, but it GW2 it's innovative I guess.
/sigh. In GW2 everyone can heal, everyone can tank, everyone can CC, THAT's the difference. Now whether it works for balancing issues and allows them to just throw new classes into the game with each xpack, I don';t know, time will tell.
I guess I just feel for SWTOR, I was expecting different class experiences for each faction, thereby making alt replayability better. Story isn't enough for me with MMORPGs. I need the characters to play differently. Again, my tastes in this category lie with Vanguard:SoH. That game, to me, is the epitome of how to make classes fun and varied and give us LOTS of them.
So if everyone can do as you mentioned isn t that the opitimy of mirrored? Everyone can do everything? Don t get me wrong I can t wait for GW2, this difference is I could care less if someone on another faction is almost exactly how I am, or do I care if anyone can heal or tank etc.
No, that's not mirrored, because the difference is the class itself, while they can fulfill the same roles anyone else can, each class is quite distinct in it's style.
I think some in this thread are confusing this "mirroring" issue. I've only ever seen it ONCE in a game and that's in Warhammer Online. Now I'm seeing it again in SWTOR and the issue here is, at least in WAR the mirrored class didn't really feel the same. Maybe they don't feel the same in SWTOR endgame, but they sure do feel the same up to level 25. I took a sith warrior and a jedi knight to 25 and the combat and feel of the class was exactly the same. That's the issue here.
Bottom line is gw2 doesn t have factions, they have servers vs servers. So in reality i m fighting a carbon copy of myself, not really diverse. When it comes to pvp, and yes people will bitch pvp wrecks some games, it s the best way to balance. Thing is, I can fight a sith warrior/maurader and have no clue what tree he/she went down, or if tri specced, in gw2 you see a warrior, it s a warrior. Not sure whats the problem with that.
Wait, this is a game-breaker? Isn't every MMO like this? Except they don't have "mirrored" classes, they have the SAME classes for each faction.
DAoC certainly was not mirrored.
Mirrored isnt ok when you basically have 4 classes in the entire game because of it.
THIS^^^^!!!!!! Bingo. I love story, but if that's the only way to diversify the classes in an MMORPG, than Bioware doesn't understand MMORPGs. Keep the story but give us more variety. Even 2 more unique classes would have sealed the deal, preferably I would like more. Maybe in a future expack? Do we even know what kind of roadmap this game will have post launch?
You don't have 4. You have 8. Advanced Classes are full classes. And as it was pointed out, this is absolutely no different than than what most MMOs have per side. The difference here is that at least with these mirrored classes, you get some variation in weapons, armor, and combat animations between the mirrors. In a game like WoW, instead of having mirrored classes, you just have the same classes for the two factions.
And to make the point more relevant to your interests, Elocke, what kind of variation do you get with Guild Wars 2? They'll have what, 8 classes as well? But yeah, in SWTOR it's bad, but it GW2 it's innovative I guess.
/sigh. In GW2 everyone can heal, everyone can tank, everyone can CC, THAT's the difference. Now whether it works for balancing issues and allows them to just throw new classes into the game with each xpack, I don';t know, time will tell.
I guess I just feel for SWTOR, I was expecting different class experiences for each faction, thereby making alt replayability better. Story isn't enough for me with MMORPGs. I need the characters to play differently. Again, my tastes in this category lie with Vanguard:SoH. That game, to me, is the epitome of how to make classes fun and varied and give us LOTS of them.
If everyone can do everything...then nobody is unique. And I played Vanguard...they had a lot of classes, but none of them were appealing because the combat was so horrible.
Wait, this is a game-breaker? Isn't every MMO like this? Except they don't have "mirrored" classes, they have the SAME classes for each faction.
DAoC certainly was not mirrored.
Mirrored isnt ok when you basically have 4 classes in the entire game because of it.
THIS^^^^!!!!!! Bingo. I love story, but if that's the only way to diversify the classes in an MMORPG, than Bioware doesn't understand MMORPGs. Keep the story but give us more variety. Even 2 more unique classes would have sealed the deal, preferably I would like more. Maybe in a future expack? Do we even know what kind of roadmap this game will have post launch?
You don't have 4. You have 8. Advanced Classes are full classes. And as it was pointed out, this is absolutely no different than than what most MMOs have per side. The difference here is that at least with these mirrored classes, you get some variation in weapons, armor, and combat animations between the mirrors. In a game like WoW, instead of having mirrored classes, you just have the same classes for the two factions.
And to make the point more relevant to your interests, Elocke, what kind of variation do you get with Guild Wars 2? They'll have what, 8 classes as well? But yeah, in SWTOR it's bad, but it GW2 it's innovative I guess.
/sigh. In GW2 everyone can heal, everyone can tank, everyone can CC, THAT's the difference. Now whether it works for balancing issues and allows them to just throw new classes into the game with each xpack, I don';t know, time will tell.
I guess I just feel for SWTOR, I was expecting different class experiences for each faction, thereby making alt replayability better. Story isn't enough for me with MMORPGs. I need the characters to play differently. Again, my tastes in this category lie with Vanguard:SoH. That game, to me, is the epitome of how to make classes fun and varied and give us LOTS of them.
So if everyone can do as you mentioned isn t that the opitimy of mirrored? Everyone can do everything? Don t get me wrong I can t wait for GW2, this difference is I could care less if someone on another faction is almost exactly how I am, or do I care if anyone can heal or tank etc.
No, that's not mirrored, because the difference is the class itself, while they can fulfill the same roles anyone else can, each class is quite distinct in it's style.
I think some in this thread are confusing this "mirroring" issue. I've only ever seen it ONCE in a game and that's in Warhammer Online. Now I'm seeing it again in SWTOR and the issue here is, at least in WAR the mirrored class didn't really feel the same. Maybe they don't feel the same in SWTOR endgame, but they sure do feel the same up to level 25. I took a sith warrior and a jedi knight to 25 and the combat and feel of the class was exactly the same. That's the issue here.
The mirrored classes in WAR were imbalanced... thats the difference. The classes didn't feel the same even though they were "mirrored" but they weren't actually mirrored, they were different classes altogether. The OP pointed that out, IE the white lion and the marauder... were they the same class and balanced? Not at all. The White Lion throws up good damage on their own and was a pet class. Not balanced in PvE or PvP...
So while they were supposed to be mirrored classes, the mirrors were wacky funhouse mirrors and nothing matched up, everything was full of imbalance. That is the exact opposite of what mirrored classes are meant to do.
Wait, this is a game-breaker? Isn't every MMO like this? Except they don't have "mirrored" classes, they have the SAME classes for each faction.
Exactly...lol people find so much to complain about. If it was the opposite people will be complaining how it is not balanced lmao.
Not EVERY MMo is like this. And the ones NOT having mirrored classes are the ones less popular *sadly* best example of a good MMO without mirrored classes (and thus very unbalanced classes) is Lineage II, and so far I've never heard anyone complain about the unbalance the game has...
I posted these in another thread discussing the matter:
Originally posted by VirusDancer
Classes are not mirrored. Roles are mirrored. There is a difference. If the classes were mirroed, then you would have Imperial and Republic Agents - you would have Republic and Imperial Smugglers - you would have Imperial and Republic Bounty Hunters - and - you would have Republic and Imperial Troopers.
If you want to fill the role normally played by an Imperial Agent, you can play a Republic Smuggler - Republic Trooper, Imperial Bounty Hunter...
...so yes, the roles and thus talent trees to fill those roles are going to be mirrored.
The classes are not though...for players. Yep, you will speak with NPC Imperial Troopers and NPC Republic Agents. You just can't play them.
Originally posted by VirusDancer
I did play them. That is how I know the "classes" are not identical.
There is no Imperial Smuggler. There is no Republic Agent.
A class is more than just abilities. When you're playing out the story for an Imperial Agent, it is not an Empire version of the Smuggler's story. Why? Because they are different classes. When you're playing the Smuggler, you're not taking part in activities that a Republic Agent might.
If you're just thinking about the game lobby aspect of the game with instanced PvP and dungeons - then you've got roles. The Smuggler and Agent can each do the same thing.
You do not have mirrored classes though. It's a MMORPG. The Smuggler is not a spy and the Agent is not a criminal.
Both factions should have Agents, Troopers, Smugglers, and Bounty Hunters.
Light/Dark should determine whether you're Jedi or Sith.
Again, it's a MMORPG...
Originally posted by VirusDancer
The difference is more than just who they work for... if the only difference was who they worked for, then we would have Imperial Smugglers, Republic Agents, Imperial Troopers, and Republic Bounty Hunters...
You say you played both sides - think about how the Imperial Agent worked and how the Republic Smuggler worked (not abilities, but how the stories play out). The Smuggler did not work directly for the Republic. The Republic Smuggler did support the Republic over the Empire in many cases, but the Smuggler was not a Republic lackey. The Agent on the other hand, is directly employed by the Empire. The Imperial Agent is an Empire lackey.
Using a design flaw to explain a design flaw does not excuse either flaw.
Smuggler Imperial/Republic - should be faction influenced mirrored classes.
Agent Imperial/Republic - should be faction influenced mirrored classes.
Smuggler/Agent - may have some common abilities, but they should be distinct classes.
It's as simple as saying, I want to play an elite soldier in the Imperial Army. Sorry, you can't. It's as simple as saying, I want to play a Republic spy that tries to thwart the efforts of the Empire. Sorry, you can't.
Saying that you can play a Bounty Hunter or a Smuggler...is simply not the same thing.
Originally posted by VirusDancer
I do not think that LS/DS should be linked in that fashion for Agent, Trooper, Smuggler, nor Bounty Hunter. I do not think LS/DS should be linked to those classes at all. Those classes should have R/E faction choices.
You're an Agent, Trooper, Smuggler, or Bounty Hunter - do you want to fight for the Republic or the Empire.
LS/DS should really only apply to Jedis and Sith.
No doubt there could be moral rating of some sort for A/T/S/B - but it should be meaningful and affect how your story plays out. The guy with a reputation for being a murderous bastard should not have the same story as the guy that routinely sacrifices himself for kittens.
Again, my most deliciously "EVIL" experience was as a Republic Smuggler. It put to shame anything my Sith Inquisitor did. The closest would have been Imperial Bounty Hunter.
Yes, while the roles/abilities may be mirrored between Smuggler/Agent - storywise, it felt mirrored between Smuggler/Bounty Hunter (much like it was for Trooper/Agent while Bounty Hunter/Trooper were mirrored for roles/abilities).
And that is pretty much how I look at it. There should be both Republic and Imperial Agents, Troopers, Smugglers, and Bounty Hunters. Yes, there should be mirrored classes - both factions should have these classes, and they should be mirrored. They should not be exact copies - because they should reflect the factions.
It is annoying that you cannot play an elite member of the Imperial Army as a Trooper. I do not want to hear you can play a Bounty Hunter, they do the same thing. A Bounty Hunter is not a Trooper...
...the mirrored class nonsense as people are discussing it in regard to balance, only matters for PvP/Dungeons - and it would not matter in the least if there were actually mirrored classes - Imperial Troopers, Republic Agents, Imperial Smugglers, and Republic Bounty Hunters.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Hopefully, this means that they won't do the WOW thing of nerfing/buffing every class every patch. I'd rather not have my tank or healer ruined because they needed to "re-balance" the classes. For that matter, how many people are really going to play both dark and light-side characters?
Hopefully, this means that they won't do the WOW thing of nerfing/buffing every class every patch. I'd rather not have my tank or healer ruined because they needed to "re-balance" the classes. For that matter, how many people are really going to play both dark and light-side characters?
Well they will be doing balancing, but with mirrored skills and as you can see in the last patch notes specific skills that get buff/nerfed will be changes for both class specs. It does make balancing more feasable. Sure between each class you will have imbalances but you will at least have balance between factions.
Wait, this is a game-breaker? Isn't every MMO like this? Except they don't have "mirrored" classes, they have the SAME classes for each faction.
Exactly...lol people find so much to complain about. If it was the opposite people will be complaining how it is not balanced lmao.
Not EVERY MMo is like this. And the ones NOT having mirrored classes are the ones less popular *sadly* best example of a good MMO without mirrored classes (and thus very unbalanced classes) is Lineage II, and so far I've never heard anyone complain about the unbalance the game has...
From my experience (which is a couple of months dated) you are exagerrating the mirroring of the classes. They are not identical, just similar. Where is the Trooper's Death From Above? The Smuggler's Snipe? The classes are mirrored, but to say they are identical is like saying a rocket attack is identical to a fireball because both are ranged AoE damage abilities. A rifle class is not identical to a pistol class, a class that slings pebbles and trash around is not the same as one that shoots force lightning.
I played 8 classes to above level 20, and generally played the same style AC on the mirrors, and I had very few instances where I felt that something was just cloned from one side to the other.
You might as well claim that every combat themed video game ever created is identical, because 99% of all abilities either do damage, do negative damage, or alter the amount of damage you give or receive.
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. - Douglas Adams
From my experience (which is a couple of months dated) you are exagerrating the mirroring of the classes. They are not identical, just similar. Where is the Trooper's Death From Above? The Smuggler's Snipe? The classes are mirrored, but to say they are identical is like saying a rocket attack is identical to a fireball because both are ranged AoE damage abilities. A rifle class is not identical to a pistol class, a class that slings pebbles and trash around is not the same as one that shoots force lightning.
I played 8 classes to above level 20, and generally played the same style AC on the mirrors, and I had very few instances where I felt that something was just cloned from one side to the other.
I think you took it a little too literal.. We are not silly enough to think that they wouldn't just rename and re-animate the skills to "appear" different.. I think what most people are talking about is the end result.. "a class that slings pebbles and trash around" should not vaporize someone the same way "one that shootes force lightning".. Nor should a pebble do the same damage as lightning..
I don't mind it so much, but I feel that if they went to this end for the sake of balance that we get some really cool PvP stuff going on in PvP servers.. Something that it took Rift quite a while to grasp.. I would like to see a universe wide territorial struggle!!! mwahaha!!
Seems the author forgot that you choose an advanced class in Swtor at level 10, so you basically just have to choose another path on your mirror class to get a completely different playstyle.
These are identical to their mirror's counterparts as well. Vanguard (Trooper) == Powertech (Bounty Hunter).
They are very close admittedly but they are not exactly the same. The powertech uses a flamethrower where the vanguard uses a rifle.The merc uses twin blasters where the commando uses the blaster cannon. for twin blasters on the republic side you have to go with the gunslinger where as his mirror in the sniper uses a blaster rifle and so on.
Of course this is a pretty small difference as just about every skill for once class can be found on its mirror on the other side. All in all though it doesn't bother me. It felt different enough to me that I will play several mirrored classes on both sides.
From my experience (which is a couple of months dated) you are exagerrating the mirroring of the classes. They are not identical, just similar. Where is the Trooper's Death From Above? The Smuggler's Snipe? The classes are mirrored, but to say they are identical is like saying a rocket attack is identical to a fireball because both are ranged AoE damage abilities. A rifle class is not identical to a pistol class, a class that slings pebbles and trash around is not the same as one that shoots force lightning.
I played 8 classes to above level 20, and generally played the same style AC on the mirrors, and I had very few instances where I felt that something was just cloned from one side to the other.
Death from Above
Instant
Heat: 25
Range: 30m
Rains death from above, firing a volley of missiles at the target area, dealing ((LvlRankDmgAmnt * 0.128 + SpellPower * 1.58) * 3) - ((LvlRankDmgAmnt * 0.188 + SpellPower * 1.58) * 3) kinetic damage over the duration. Standard and weak targets are knocked down by the blasts.
Mortar Volley
Instant
Range: 30m
Launches a volley of mortar shells at the target area, dealing ((LvlRankDmgAmnt * 0.128 + SpellPower * 1.58) * 4) - ((LvlRankDmgAmnt * 0.188 + SpellPower * 1.58) * 4) kinetic damage to up to 5 targets within 8 meters over the duration. Standard and weak targets are knocked down by the blasts.
Snipe
1.5 seconds
Energy: 20
Range: 30m
Shoots a target for (LvlRankDmgAmnt * 0.185 + WeaponDamage * 1.85) weapon damage. Can only be used from cover.
Charged Burst
1.5 seconds
Energy: 20
Range: 30m
Fires a series of powerful blasts for () weapon damage. Can only be used from cover. Fires both blasters if dual wielding.
While Charged Burst does not show the damage, it is Snipe.
As for saying Pistol and Rifle are not the same:
Enforcement Blaster
Binds on Equip
Ranged Main Hand, Ranged Off Hand
36.0-67.0 Energy Damage
Durability: 200/200
Item Modifications
Modulator: Open
Requires Level 9
Requires Weapon Proficiency: Blaster Pistol
Targeting Rifle
Binds on Equip
Ranged Main Hand
41.0-61.0 Energy Damage
Durability: 200/200
Item Modifications
Modulator: Open
Requires Level 9
Requires Weapon Proficiency: Blaster Rifle
You might say that the Blaster has a higher damage than the Rifle. It also has a lower damage. What is the average for both? 51-51.5... so guess what? They're basically the same average DPS using their calculations.
Thus...why people are saying the things they are.
I still say that a Bounty Hunter is not a Trooper - but I'm looking at it from a RPG point of view - not an instanced game lobby let's have balance point of view.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Comments
To expand on that point... You could produce 20 different classes, all with identical attacks and spells, give them different names, animations and descriptions. And people would complain that the some of the classes are OP and the game is not balanced.
"Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee
I agree about the disappointment; it's the gameplay side of taking Soldier as the 2nd character after a Smuggler. Same starter area over again takes a bit of the shininess away.
However, wouldn't that be a perfect opportunity to take the "other" advanced class at Level 10?
Like, if I were to do the IA first, and take the stealth AC, then playing a Smuggler/Gunslinger should do the trick, no?
After doing a little research on Torhead.com (don't know how "official" it is) but the Scoundrel Scatter Gun and Operative Vibroknife have a min-max base shift.. So while one has a slightly lower floor or min (scattergun) the other has a lower roof or max (vibroknife)..
It's a very small difference but it makes me pretty happy that they at LEAST decided to use different yet balanced techniques on the weaponsets of the mirrors..
EDIT: A good comparison..
OPERATIVE - Lv 10 Greens
SCOUNDREL - Lv 10 Greens
They are for the most part identical except for what I mentioned..
i would just a bit moer. The author said:
If you’ve played one class for an extended period of time and feel like checking out how the other side lives, it’s a real shame to coincidentally pick your class mirror on the opposing faction and realize you already know how to play the character down to the tiniest detail. I really can’t stress enough how identical things are.
Ok so let me get this straight through an example. You play a bounty hunter Powertech with tank spec to level 50, do all kinds of stuff then one day say " hey, I want to roll a republic charcter". So you go onto teh server, create a trooper, pick the vanguard class, and then spec tank, then complain because you rolled the only possible mirror and want to blame BW for limiting choices?
Even though you could have rolled any ot he other three republic classes? Even though if you picked the trooper class you can picked the commando AC? Even though if you picked the Vanguard AC you could have specced damage?
Give me a break! Theres plenty of ways you could have deviated from picking the the exact mirrored class. I call BS!
eeenteresting...
Thanks fer lookin it up!
And BTW, for the earlier comment there is actually 8 classes. For example a sith inquistor can become an assassin or a sorcerer. each of the AC have specs that causes you be able to do one of two rolls.
A sith assassin plays completely differently then a sith sorcerer. Granted your story line will be the same but those two completely different classes ones a mele who can tank or go rogue dps, the otehr is a spell caster that can go healer or dps.
Yep this is true. But even if you pick the mirror base class and even the mirror AC, you still even ahve the option of speccing differently, completely changing how the class plays.
/sigh. In GW2 everyone can heal, everyone can tank, everyone can CC, THAT's the difference. Now whether it works for balancing issues and allows them to just throw new classes into the game with each xpack, I don';t know, time will tell.
I guess I just feel for SWTOR, I was expecting different class experiences for each faction, thereby making alt replayability better. Story isn't enough for me with MMORPGs. I need the characters to play differently. Again, my tastes in this category lie with Vanguard:SoH. That game, to me, is the epitome of how to make classes fun and varied and give us LOTS of them.
Yes, but if you chose one advanced path for Trooper and the different path for the BH then you would have a different set of abilities. It would make playing the mirror class different.
So if everyone can do as you mentioned isn t that the opitimy of mirrored? Everyone can do everything? Don t get me wrong I can t wait for GW2, this difference is I could care less if someone on another faction is almost exactly how I am, or do I care if anyone can heal or tank etc.
If you play SW:TOR you will find that all the classes have different story arcs, that is a a lot of game. Mirror classing just means you won't have a class that dominates in PvP destroying the gameplay.
No, that's not mirrored, because the difference is the class itself, while they can fulfill the same roles anyone else can, each class is quite distinct in it's style.
I think some in this thread are confusing this "mirroring" issue. I've only ever seen it ONCE in a game and that's in Warhammer Online. Now I'm seeing it again in SWTOR and the issue here is, at least in WAR the mirrored class didn't really feel the same. Maybe they don't feel the same in SWTOR endgame, but they sure do feel the same up to level 25. I took a sith warrior and a jedi knight to 25 and the combat and feel of the class was exactly the same. That's the issue here.
Bottom line is gw2 doesn t have factions, they have servers vs servers. So in reality i m fighting a carbon copy of myself, not really diverse. When it comes to pvp, and yes people will bitch pvp wrecks some games, it s the best way to balance. Thing is, I can fight a sith warrior/maurader and have no clue what tree he/she went down, or if tri specced, in gw2 you see a warrior, it s a warrior. Not sure whats the problem with that.
If everyone can do everything...then nobody is unique. And I played Vanguard...they had a lot of classes, but none of them were appealing because the combat was so horrible.
The mirrored classes in WAR were imbalanced... thats the difference. The classes didn't feel the same even though they were "mirrored" but they weren't actually mirrored, they were different classes altogether. The OP pointed that out, IE the white lion and the marauder... were they the same class and balanced? Not at all. The White Lion throws up good damage on their own and was a pet class. Not balanced in PvE or PvP...
So while they were supposed to be mirrored classes, the mirrors were wacky funhouse mirrors and nothing matched up, everything was full of imbalance. That is the exact opposite of what mirrored classes are meant to do.
Not EVERY MMo is like this. And the ones NOT having mirrored classes are the ones less popular *sadly* best example of a good MMO without mirrored classes (and thus very unbalanced classes) is Lineage II, and so far I've never heard anyone complain about the unbalance the game has...
I posted these in another thread discussing the matter:
And that is pretty much how I look at it. There should be both Republic and Imperial Agents, Troopers, Smugglers, and Bounty Hunters. Yes, there should be mirrored classes - both factions should have these classes, and they should be mirrored. They should not be exact copies - because they should reflect the factions.
It is annoying that you cannot play an elite member of the Imperial Army as a Trooper. I do not want to hear you can play a Bounty Hunter, they do the same thing. A Bounty Hunter is not a Trooper...
...the mirrored class nonsense as people are discussing it in regard to balance, only matters for PvP/Dungeons - and it would not matter in the least if there were actually mirrored classes - Imperial Troopers, Republic Agents, Imperial Smugglers, and Republic Bounty Hunters.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
Hopefully, this means that they won't do the WOW thing of nerfing/buffing every class every patch. I'd rather not have my tank or healer ruined because they needed to "re-balance" the classes. For that matter, how many people are really going to play both dark and light-side characters?
A witty saying proves nothing.
-Voltaire
Well they will be doing balancing, but with mirrored skills and as you can see in the last patch notes specific skills that get buff/nerfed will be changes for both class specs. It does make balancing more feasable. Sure between each class you will have imbalances but you will at least have balance between factions.
Macro's aren't usually coded to complain
From my experience (which is a couple of months dated) you are exagerrating the mirroring of the classes. They are not identical, just similar. Where is the Trooper's Death From Above? The Smuggler's Snipe? The classes are mirrored, but to say they are identical is like saying a rocket attack is identical to a fireball because both are ranged AoE damage abilities. A rifle class is not identical to a pistol class, a class that slings pebbles and trash around is not the same as one that shoots force lightning.
I played 8 classes to above level 20, and generally played the same style AC on the mirrors, and I had very few instances where I felt that something was just cloned from one side to the other.
You might as well claim that every combat themed video game ever created is identical, because 99% of all abilities either do damage, do negative damage, or alter the amount of damage you give or receive.
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. - Douglas Adams
I think you took it a little too literal.. We are not silly enough to think that they wouldn't just rename and re-animate the skills to "appear" different.. I think what most people are talking about is the end result.. "a class that slings pebbles and trash around" should not vaporize someone the same way "one that shootes force lightning".. Nor should a pebble do the same damage as lightning..
I don't mind it so much, but I feel that if they went to this end for the sake of balance that we get some really cool PvP stuff going on in PvP servers.. Something that it took Rift quite a while to grasp.. I would like to see a universe wide territorial struggle!!! mwahaha!!
They are very close admittedly but they are not exactly the same. The powertech uses a flamethrower where the vanguard uses a rifle.The merc uses twin blasters where the commando uses the blaster cannon. for twin blasters on the republic side you have to go with the gunslinger where as his mirror in the sniper uses a blaster rifle and so on.
Of course this is a pretty small difference as just about every skill for once class can be found on its mirror on the other side. All in all though it doesn't bother me. It felt different enough to me that I will play several mirrored classes on both sides.
But I agree with you 95% of the way.
All die, so die well.
Death from Above
Instant
Heat: 25
Range: 30m
Rains death from above, firing a volley of missiles at the target area, dealing ((LvlRankDmgAmnt * 0.128 + SpellPower * 1.58) * 3) - ((LvlRankDmgAmnt * 0.188 + SpellPower * 1.58) * 3) kinetic damage over the duration. Standard and weak targets are knocked down by the blasts.
Mortar Volley
Instant
Range: 30m
Launches a volley of mortar shells at the target area, dealing ((LvlRankDmgAmnt * 0.128 + SpellPower * 1.58) * 4) - ((LvlRankDmgAmnt * 0.188 + SpellPower * 1.58) * 4) kinetic damage to up to 5 targets within 8 meters over the duration. Standard and weak targets are knocked down by the blasts.
Snipe
1.5 seconds
Energy: 20
Range: 30m
Shoots a target for (LvlRankDmgAmnt * 0.185 + WeaponDamage * 1.85) weapon damage. Can only be used from cover.
Charged Burst
1.5 seconds
Energy: 20
Range: 30m
Fires a series of powerful blasts for () weapon damage. Can only be used from cover. Fires both blasters if dual wielding.
While Charged Burst does not show the damage, it is Snipe.
As for saying Pistol and Rifle are not the same:
Enforcement Blaster
Binds on Equip
Ranged Main Hand, Ranged Off Hand
36.0-67.0 Energy Damage
Durability: 200/200
Item Modifications
Modulator: Open
Requires Level 9
Requires Weapon Proficiency: Blaster Pistol
Targeting Rifle
Binds on Equip
Ranged Main Hand
41.0-61.0 Energy Damage
Durability: 200/200
Item Modifications
Modulator: Open
Requires Level 9
Requires Weapon Proficiency: Blaster Rifle
You might say that the Blaster has a higher damage than the Rifle. It also has a lower damage. What is the average for both? 51-51.5... so guess what? They're basically the same average DPS using their calculations.
Thus...why people are saying the things they are.
I still say that a Bounty Hunter is not a Trooper - but I'm looking at it from a RPG point of view - not an instanced game lobby let's have balance point of view.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%
While from a RPG point of view there are eight classes (I wish there had been twelve), there are only four classes from a mechanics point of view.
I miss the MMORPG genre. Will a developer ever make one again?
Explorer: 87%, Killer: 67%, Achiever: 27%, Socializer: 20%