Just to clarify, you do realize that by the standard you are articulating here, pretty much every themepark MMO, including WoW, fails just as much as TOR does? It's more a criticism of the genre these games are a part of than it is a criticism of this particular game. Other themeparks don't have stories that are any "more multiplayer," their "single player" nature is just implemented through bad writing and text boxes, which makes it easier to ignore.
Yes, but only TOR focuses on those stories to such an extreme, that they've neglected the game on almost every other level. Combat and animations, character customization and race diversity, immersive map design and detailing, roleplaying fluff, day/night cycles, etc, etc - all these things that most other major MMOs put more effort into, so that their implausible quest stories aren't the entire focus of the game.
Even with all the resources at their disposal, they still had to make choices on how to spend it, and they clearly chose to spend an inordinate percentage of it on creating stories that don't make any sense.
I was worried about EA being involved since they tend to go for what will make them the most money and quickly and in mmorpgs they are almost always wrong. I knew themepark was going to backfire in some way, what I didn't count on was they would actually screw up the themepark aspect of the game as well. If its poorly implemented they are going to be scrapping to get out game patches to improve mmorpg features they should have worked on in the first place. Questing, customization, better space implementation, companions, better pvp mechanics and some more fluffy features, all the things they should have beein working on instead of VO. I think they got obsessed over VO so much they forgot they needed to make a multiplayer game.
Warhammer is a good example of the same thing, in different ways, they did what they wanted to do and ignored the player bases cries for what they wanted, now in an established fiction like Warhammer or Star Wars, this is typically not a good idea. For instance ALL WAR had to do was balance pvp and introduce Lizardmen and Skaven, thats it, instead they chose to imbalance pvp to keep one player group happy and a lame expansion that exited no one. And some kind of pvp ball game, probably alot like hutt ball. So for Star Wars to have only human races in a game that costs this much is a huge mistake, I mean I expect not to have race selection in a Free to Play title like perfect world, Rift AT LEAST has Dwarves its not much but come on, I would love to have played a Ithorian or aManaan, my first thought of what race to play in Star Wars was not human believe me. Just adding a few races that were truly inhuman would alone boost sales, easily, instead people got human, red human, darker human and tentacle human. Lack of content and what I can describe as uninspired pvp are gonna hurt this game.
Just to clarify, you do realize that by the standard you are articulating here, pretty much every themepark MMO, including WoW, fails just as much as TOR does? It's more a criticism of the genre these games are a part of than it is a criticism of this particular game. Other themeparks don't have stories that are any "more multiplayer," their "single player" nature is just implemented through bad writing and text boxes, which makes it easier to ignore.
Yes, but only TOR focuses on those stories to such an extreme, that they've neglected the game on almost every other level. Combat and animations, character customization and race diversity, immersive map design and detailing, roleplaying fluff, day/night cycles, etc, etc - all these things that most other major MMOs put more effort into, so that their implausible quest stories aren't the entire focus of the game.
Even with all the resources at their disposal, they still had to make choices on how to spend it, and they clearly chose to spend an inordinate percentage of it on creating stories that don't make any sense.
I was worried about EA being involved since they tend to go for what will make them the most money and quickly and in mmorpgs they are almost always wrong. I knew themepark was going to backfire in some way, what I didn't count on was they would actually screw up the themepark aspect of the game as well. If its poorly implemented they are going to be scrapping to get out game patches to improve mmorpg features they should have worked on in the first place. Questing, customization, better space implementation, companions, better pvp mechanics and some more fluffy features, all the things they should have beein working on instead of VO. I think they got obsessed over VO so much they forgot they needed to make a multiplayer game.
Warhammer is a good example of the same thing, in different ways, they did what they wanted to do and ignored the player bases cries for what they wanted, now in an established fiction like Warhammer or Star Wars, this is typically not a good idea. For instance ALL WAR had to do was balance pvp and introduce Lizardmen and Skaven, thats it, instead they chose to imbalance pvp to keep one player group happy and a lame expansion that exited no one. And some kind of pvp ball game, probably alot like hutt ball. So for Star Wars to have only human races in a game that costs this much is a huge mistake, I mean I expect not to have race selection in a Free to Play title like perfect world, Rift AT LEAST has Dwarves its not much but come on, I would love to have played a Ithorian or aManaan, my first thought of what race to play in Star Wars was not human believe me. Just adding a few races that were truly inhuman would alone boost sales, easily, instead people got human, red human, darker human and tentacle human. Lack of content and what I can describe as uninspired pvp are gonna hurt this game.
So what non-humanoid races would you think are playable from the SW universe? Bothan? Humanoid. Mon Cal? Humanoid. I think Hutts would be the only non-humanoid that played a significant role, and they aren't adventuring type.
I was worried about EA being involved since they tend to go for what will make them the most money and quickly and in mmorpgs they are almost always wrong. I knew themepark was going to backfire in some way, what I didn't count on was they would actually screw up the themepark aspect of the game as well. If its poorly implemented they are going to be scrapping to get out game patches to improve mmorpg features they should have worked on in the first place. Questing, customization, better space implementation, companions, better pvp mechanics and some more fluffy features, all the things they should have beein working on instead of VO. I think they got obsessed over VO so much they forgot they needed to make a multiplayer game.
Warhammer is a good example of the same thing, in different ways, they did what they wanted to do and ignored the player bases cries for what they wanted, now in an established fiction like Warhammer or Star Wars, this is typically not a good idea. For instance ALL WAR had to do was balance pvp and introduce Lizardmen and Skaven, thats it, instead they chose to imbalance pvp to keep one player group happy and a lame expansion that exited no one. And some kind of pvp ball game, probably alot like hutt ball. So for Star Wars to have only human races in a game that costs this much is a huge mistake, I mean I expect not to have race selection in a Free to Play title like perfect world, Rift AT LEAST has Dwarves its not much but come on, I would love to have played a Ithorian or aManaan, my first thought of what race to play in Star Wars was not human believe me. Just adding a few races that were truly inhuman would alone boost sales, easily, instead people got human, red human, darker human and tentacle human. Lack of content and what I can describe as uninspired pvp are gonna hurt this game.
the whole human only thing wouldn't bother me so much if they didn't use only a single model for every single race. And cyborg is just a huge cop-out its not even funny. I can see especially for dialogue purposes people not wanting to play a class that didnt speak english also if they did put in other races and had them speak english people would probably complain about that. Either way i do agree a lot more attention should of been put in some other areas than just the voice acting but well just have to hope they do well with content patches.
game is flawed and does not break out of the mold enough to stand above the rest of other mmo's, still going to preorder due to liking bioware's work and expecting what i pay for.
After two beta tests, in which I played all class to 20, I can honestly say it's a good game. If I were to rate this game it would be an 8.5. Some aspects ofthe game like the environments, story, companions and crafting are great. Others, like customization, armor textures, and UI are just good, not great. The game has the right feel in terms of fluid combat. There are little thingsnlike not being able to sit in any of the chairs in the game that bother me. Such an easy thing to do yet it wasn't done. Kinda irks my nerves but the overall game is good. I will def be enjoying the hell out of it till GW2 comes out, and maybe some time after that too.
Droids. It would be absolutely hilarious to be given a bumbling humanoid "pet" to follow around so you could view the game universe from the other perspective. Especially if you could circumvent some but not all of their choices. Think R2-D2 not C3-PO.
I also had the same thought. There are pleanty of droid, or droid-like characters in the movies that would work as playable characters. Also, you have others like General Akbar's race. Who speaks english and looks alien. I know I would probably roll one of those just for the pleasure of yelling "IT'S A TRAP!"
- I also think the main issue (which was said a few posts earlier), is not that we need non-humanoid characters, but that the characters are almost all based on the same character models. It's like they took the same 5-6 models and then changed the accessories and skins on each one. You have human, human with glasses, human with tentacles, human with spikes, human colored red, human colored purple, gothic human, human with augments; and they are all under the pretense of being completely different races. It's unsatisfying in much the same way seeing a gorrilla in WoW ~ lvl 20, and then seeing that same gorrilla dyed purple and called 'epic bone crusher!' @ lvl 40 is just not very fulfilling.
Droids. It would be absolutely hilarious to be given a bumbling humanoid "pet" to follow around so you could view the game universe from the other perspective. Especially if you could circumvent some but not all of their choices. Think R2-D2 not C3-PO.
I also had the same thought. There are pleanty of droid, or droid-like characters in the movies that would work as playable characters. Also, you have others like General Akbar's race. Who speaks english and looks alien. I know I would probably roll one of those just for the pleasure of yelling "IT'S A TRAP!"
- I also think the main issue (which was said a few posts earlier), is not that we need non-humanoid characters, but that the characters are almost all based on the same character models. It's like they took the same 5-6 models and then changed the accessories and skins on each one. You have human, human with glasses, human with tentacles, human with spikes, human colored red, human colored purple, gothic human, human with augments; and they are all under the pretense of being completely different races. It's unsatisfying in much the same way seeing a gorrilla in WoW ~ lvl 20, and then seeing that same gorrilla dyed purple and called 'epic bone crusher!' @ lvl 40 is just not very fulfilling.
Yea but as soon as you try to do that, then people are going to complain how in all the star wars movies and such, the majority was humanoid and they DID all look like humans with *, etc. No matter which way they went, someone was going to have a fit about it.
I dont mind the race chocies. The issue i have is u get 4 body types total. The rest of it is ok for me i dont need the kind of creater i can make my guy look like he just had the worst allergic reaction in his life
Yes, but only TOR focuses on those stories to such an extreme, that they've neglected the game on almost every other level. Combat and animations, character customization and race diversity, immersive map design and detailing, roleplaying fluff, day/night cycles, etc, etc - all these things that most other major MMOs put more effort into, so that their implausible quest stories aren't the entire focus of the game.
Even with all the resources at their disposal, they still had to make choices on how to spend it, and they clearly chose to spend an inordinate percentage of it on creating stories that don't make any sense.
You're relying on a fundamentally flawed assumption here; that their design decisions were driven solely by their available funds. It's entirely possible that every one of the "MMO elements" in the game is how it is because that is how they want it to be, not because money that could have been spent there was spent somewhere else. In fact, given BioWare's track record, that is almost certainly the case. This is not a company that has *ever* focused on innovative or compelling gameplay, their goal with gameplay has always been to make sure it is solid and functional so that it doesn't distract from the core of their games; the story.
I'm not sure that makes their case any better. I mean sure, no game is objectively good or bad. I'm just voicing my opinion that their design decisions, whether made by necessity or preference, are questionable. In terms of what I'd personally enjoy, but also in terms of what I consider likely to make for a popular MMO - not just in box sales, but in the months and years to come.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but of course we're all just talking about opinions here. Any criticism is a matter of opinion. If a book is critiqued for having shallow one-dimensional characters, and the writer says that was intentional, how does that make it any better?
Originally posted by CazNeerg
So far, and there is no offense intended here, I'm just trying to give an accurate description, all of your issues with the game are consistent with my theory presented in the OP. Every one of them is something that can be applied to all themepark games, all BioWare games, or both. You are offering reasons why you think the very concept of a story-driven themepark is bad, not reasons to believe that TOR is a poorly constructed specimen of a story-driven themepark.
I remember when it was first announced that Bioware was making this game, and people were a little concerned that they might stick too closely to their single-player roots. and now, years later, that's exactly what they've done, and we see that in the process, it's less of a single-player game, and less of an MMO. While it is true that all they've done is combine the two, they seem to have managed to combine the worst of both, rather than the best of both, or even a balance of both.. except with a massive amount of dialogue to make up for it.
I think it's been layed out repeatedly, different areas where TOR is lacking, but other themeparks are not - and even ways in which TOR is lacking, but some of Bioware's single-player games are not.
Map design that's more linear than any other themepark I know of, but admittedly a hallmark of Bioware's.
Less customization than most MMOs, and in some ways even less than Bioware's single player games.
A gameworld that feels lifeless, not only compared to other themeparks, but compared to other Bioware games,
Combat that's oddly flat, compared to other themeparks and compared to games like Mass Effect or Dragon Age..
Do I need to keep going? I'm trying not the be this blatantly negative about the game, but I feel as if you're asking me to spell it out like this. How are these issues that can be applied to all themepark games or even all Bioware games?
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
I was too cautious to be enthusiastic about this game at first as ive been dissapointed with new MMO's entering the market too many times this past few years. However, looking at the beta videos for SWTOR i can say i am very very impressed and eagerly await the launch. The story is engaging and the voice acting is top notch and whilst that may not be enough for the rest of you, im one of those people who just wanted a KOTOR 3. I am happy to know that if i want to play this game for all the characters stories and then quit i can, and it wouldn't have been a failure in my eyes.
With that said, the gameplay looks smooth and polished anyway, and should keep myself and many others happy for the coming months. Im looking foreward to seeing how this game develops with updates and expansions over the next few years. May finally have found my new mmo home!
I'm not sure that makes their case any better. I mean sure, no game is objectively good or bad. I'm just voicing my opinion that their design decisions, whether made by necessity or preference, are questionable. In terms of what I'd personally enjoy, but also in terms of what I consider likely to make for a popular MMO - not just in box sales, but in the months and years to come.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but of course we're all just talking about opinions here. Any criticism is a matter of opinion. If a book is critiqued for having shallow one-dimensional characters, and the writer says that was intentional, how does that make it any better?
I remember when it was first announced that Bioware was making this game, and people were a little concerned that they might stick too closely to their single-player roots. and now, years later, that's exactly what they've done, and we see that in the process, it's less of a single-player game, and less of an MMO. While it is true that all they've done is combine the two, they seem to have managed to combine the worst of both, rather than the best of both, or even a balance of both.. except with a massive amount of dialogue to make up for it.
For me, a lot of it is about reasonableness of expectations. If you go into a hamburger joint, you have a reasonable expectation that the burgers will taste good, and if they don't, it makes sense to complain. Most of the complaints I have seen about TOR are more like going into a hamburger joint and complaining that there is no tofu burger on the menu, when no advertising or signage for the company has ever indicated that they serve tofu burgers. BioWare has made pretty much exactly the product their history and statements would lead a rational person to believe they were going to make.
I mean, come on, would you review the quality of a romantic comedy based on how well it works as an action movie?
As for combining the "worst of the two," I would have to disagree. In my (admittedly limited to a few dozen) hours playing, the game really does appear to have every standard themepark element implemented in full working order. The mechanics do exactly what I want them to in a game, they don't distract me from the story. It's a large part of why BioWare is my favorite developer.
As for the worst of the RPG elements, there are certainly some compromises at work, but I think they've done a pretty good job of only compromising the things that *have* to be in order to have any chance at holding a mass audience, when you don't have a save/reload feature. Certain kinds of choices, like permanently killing a companion, just aren't going to work for the masses when they can't hit "reload" if they regret the choice.
Does that suck for those of us who can handle consequences? Sure, but it makes sense from a business standpoint, and if my only options are having eight different stories across two factions, none of which let me kill companions, but all of which will continue to be expanded for years to come, or having exactly one story, in one faction, which will never be expanded, but which lets me kill companions, I'd rather go with the slightly more limited but far broader content which also comes packaged with greater longevity.
Originally posted by Vhaln
I think it's been layed out repeatedly, different areas where TOR is lacking, but other themeparks are not - and even ways in which TOR is lacking, but some of Bioware's single-player games are not.
Map design that's more linear than any other themepark I know of, but admittedly a hallmark of Bioware's.
Less customization than most MMOs, and in some ways even less than Bioware's single player games.
A gameworld that feels lifeless, not only compared to other themeparks, but compared to other Bioware games,
Combat that's oddly flat, compared to other themeparks and compared to games like Mass Effect or Dragon Age..
Do I need to keep going? I'm trying not the be this blatantly negative about the game, but I feel as if you're asking me to spell it out like this. How are these issues that can be applied to all themepark games or even all Bioware games?
Well, let's look at your four bullet points. The first one you yourself admit is a normal design element for BioWare games. The second, lots of people are complaining about, and I would like to see addressed, but if we limit ourselves to MMOs which have actually been substantially successful, rather than just including *anything* that has been released, TOR's level of customization is actually pretty much average, like most of it's MMO mechanics. Not great enough to make the game appealing on their own, but not bad enough to offset the impact of the game's other elements if you enjoy them.
As far as the feeling lifeless one, I have to say that must really be a personal perception thing, because I still can't see it. I can't think of a single thing about WoW that would cause it to feel more alive than TOR, and the only element of Rift I can think of is the Rifts themselves. Other than that, I think full voiceover creates a *much* more alive gameworld than text boxes could ever hope to. In addition to that, having your character actually be able to make choices beyond "Accept Quest" and "Reject Quest" actually makes your character a participant in that world, instead of the bystander feeling from most MMOs.
As for combat, beyond really enjoying any game that lets me do head shots or bullet time, the only standard I've ever had for it is that I don't want it to distract me from the rest of the game (which the horrible mess of a system in the first Witcher game does) so I can't really say anything worth reading on that topic, other than it more than adequately meets the "non-distracting" standard for me.
As for your question, I hope I made it clear from my responses that I honestly don't see any of those bullet points, other than the customization one, as being something that is abnormal in previous BioWare games or previous themeparks, it all looks pretty par for the course to me. Obviously we can disagree, and nobody has to like the game BioWare has made, but I think it is reasonable to say that none of it's "flaws" are truly inconsistent with other BioWare games, all of which were critical and commercial successes, even if some were more successful than others.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
Yes, but only TOR focuses on those stories to such an extreme, that they've neglected the game on almost every other level. Combat and animations, character customization and race diversity, immersive map design and detailing, roleplaying fluff, day/night cycles, etc, etc - all these things that most other major MMOs put more effort into, so that their implausible quest stories aren't the entire focus of the game.
Even with all the resources at their disposal, they still had to make choices on how to spend it, and they clearly chose to spend an inordinate percentage of it on creating stories that don't make any sense.
This is not a company that has *ever* focused on innovative or compelling gameplay, their goal with gameplay has always been to make sure it is solid and functional so that it doesn't distract from the core of their games; the story.
Just want to highlight that part of your response and say...
Neverwinter Nights.
Before even making a MMO they struck closer to a true MMORPG than arguably any other game wether they be RPG, MMORPG or Co-op RPG. And not only that but they implemented one of the best toolsets a game has ever seen and also done, arguably, one of the best implementations of a D&D based system a computer game has seen yet.
If they had managed to scale NWN up a bit more than it did support it truely would have been the definitive standard for MMORPG's.
I also had the same thought. There are pleanty of droid, or droid-like characters in the movies that would work as playable characters. Also, you have others like General Akbar's race. Who speaks english and looks alien. I know I would probably roll one of those just for the pleasure of yelling "IT'S A TRAP!"
- I also think the main issue (which was said a few posts earlier), is not that we need non-humanoid characters, but that the characters are almost all based on the same character models. It's like they took the same 5-6 models and then changed the accessories and skins on each one. You have human, human with glasses, human with tentacles, human with spikes, human colored red, human colored purple, gothic human, human with augments; and they are all under the pretense of being completely different races. It's unsatisfying in much the same way seeing a gorrilla in WoW ~ lvl 20, and then seeing that same gorrilla dyed purple and called 'epic bone crusher!' @ lvl 40 is just not very fulfilling.
yea basically they honestly could have just put human as race and let people put spikes on there head or a cyborg eye patch cause really thats all they did.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but of course we're all just talking about opinions here. Any criticism is a matter of opinion. If a book is critiqued for having shallow one-dimensional characters, and the writer says that was intentional, how does that make it any better?
very true I always see people defend horrible ideas put into games and people say well its fine because the developers intended it to be that way.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but of course we're all just talking about opinions here. Any criticism is a matter of opinion. If a book is critiqued for having shallow one-dimensional characters, and the writer says that was intentional, how does that make it any better?
very true I always see people defend horrible ideas put into games and people say well its fine because the developers intended it to be that way.
And herein lies part of the problem; people confusing "idea I don't like" with "horrible idea." If a developer has a formula which consistenly churns out hits which are both commercially and critically successful, and they follow that formula, how is that an inherently "horrible" idea just because there is a segment of the gaming population that dislikes the formula?
Originally posted by Zezda
Just want to highlight that part of your response and say...
Neverwinter Nights.
Before even making a MMO they struck closer to a true MMORPG than arguably any other game wether they be RPG, MMORPG or Co-op RPG. And not only that but they implemented one of the best toolsets a game has ever seen and also done, arguably, one of the best implementations of a D&D based system a computer game has seen yet.
If they had managed to scale NWN up a bit more than it did support it truely would have been the definitive standard for MMORPG's.
What was remotely innovative about the game mechanics in Neverwinter Nights? As far as I recall, it was pretty standard D&D.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
If you want more WoW-esque type of gameplay, with a bit more story and a different setting (in space, whereas RIFT offers another fantasy setting), you'll love SWTOR.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but of course we're all just talking about opinions here. Any criticism is a matter of opinion. If a book is critiqued for having shallow one-dimensional characters, and the writer says that was intentional, how does that make it any better?
very true I always see people defend horrible ideas put into games and people say well its fine because the developers intended it to be that way.
And herein lies part of the problem; people confusing "idea I don't like" with "horrible idea." If a developer has a formula which consistenly churns out hits which are both commercially and critically successful, and they follow that formula, how is that an inherently "horrible" idea just because there is a segment of the gaming population that dislikes the formula?
Originally posted by Zezda
Just want to highlight that part of your response and say...
Neverwinter Nights.
Before even making a MMO they struck closer to a true MMORPG than arguably any other game wether they be RPG, MMORPG or Co-op RPG. And not only that but they implemented one of the best toolsets a game has ever seen and also done, arguably, one of the best implementations of a D&D based system a computer game has seen yet.
If they had managed to scale NWN up a bit more than it did support it truely would have been the definitive standard for MMORPG's.
What was remotely innovative about the game mechanics in Neverwinter Nights? As far as I recall, it was pretty standard D&D.
It's only credited as the first, and arguably, only decent implementation of D&D in an online game. Baldur's Gate et al are all nice and that but are still firmly turn based. NWN managed to get it running extremely well in a real-time format that facilitated the ability to play without pausing in an online envornment. I would mention DDO as well.. but yeah...
Throw in the fact that it has one of the best multiplayer experiences to have graced PC gaming and it's hard not to call it one of the best online RPG games created. The biggest difference between it and MMORPG's is that in NWN *you* are responsible for the content and gameplay, you know.. like in the original RPG's and table top games we were all responsible for implementing the rules, scenario and everything in between.
RPG's are all about playing the role you want to play. They are all about you making the choices, MMORPG's don't give you a level of freedom even remotely comparable. Most MMORPG's (Especially EQ/WoW styled ones) would be better labeled off as 'Skinner Box Games'.. At least then to title wouldn't be so misleading. And the worst part is that we all lap it up and ask for more. They are more akin to gambling than they are playing a table top RPG.
Go compare something like NWN to WoW and tell me WoW is a RPG. It's as much an RPG as NWN is an FPS.
Seriously though, if Neverwinter Nights could scale to support hundreds or thousands of people on a single server and had the kind of backing SW:TOR does it would be a runaway success. The problem Bioware had was monetising it. Since they weren't responsible for creating the player run servers they couldn't charge for it. The problem anyone has with it now is that the IP and rights are so all over the place nobody with any sense wants to touch it with a rusty barge pole.
I would never call WoW an RPG. I honestly think that we haven't had an MMORPG genre, just a MMO genre. TOR, TSW, and GW2 are going to be the start of the MMORPG era, for me, because my favorite style of RPG is the heavily scripted but still choice-filled BioWare variety.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
If you removed the voiced, cutscene storyline, the game would fall below the bar set by Vanilla WoW all those years ago. The story does help to hook you into an otherwise lacking game, but I'm wondering how long before that gets old.
If the game were not Star Wars and it weren't for the resources devoted to the storyline, it would be well below par vs. other AAA MMOs released since WoW. I realized as I logged out from the Test Weekend earlier tonight that the core game falls some where between recent WoW and the more ambitious Free to Play Asian MMOs; as far as graphics, character models, gear, world and play experience go.
I also realized that the game takes the Star Wars MMO another huge step in the direction that Lucas Arts charted when they pushed SOE into the NGE that ruined Star Wars Galaxies. I think it's funny that there will also be a Clone Wars MMO targeted at a younger audience, since this game, aside from dark story elements, seems to already be a "kiddy" MMO. (Actually, considering how much better kids today are with technology and video games than their parents, maybe adults are the ones the game has been dumbed down for)?
In spite of all that, I finally decided to keep the pre-order, play the early access and then probably put off entering my retail key for a few weeks, while I return my focus to Skyrim for my RPG fix.
Maybe I'll be surprised with higher level play and the game worlds I haven't reached yet, but, at this point, I can't see playing this game for more than a month or two. Hopefully it will fulfill my MMO needs just long enough for a better title to launch.
If you removed the voiced, cutscene storyline, the game would fall below the bar set by Vanilla WoW all those years ago. The story does help to hook you into an otherwise lacking game, but I'm wondering how long before that gets old.
If the game were not Star Wars and it weren't for the resources devoted to the storyline, it would be well below par vs. other AAA MMOs released since WoW. I realized as I logged out from the Test Weekend earlier tonight that the core game falls some where between recent WoW and the more ambitious Free to Play Asian MMOs; as far as graphics, character models, gear, world and play experience go.
I also realized that the game takes the Star Wars MMO another huge step in the direction that Lucas Arts charted when they pushed SOE into the NGE that ruined Star Wars Galaxies. I think it's funny that there will also be a Clone Wars MMO targeted at a younger audience, since this game, aside from dark story elements, seems to already be a "kiddy" MMO. (Actually, considering how much better kids today are with technology and video games than their parents, maybe adults are the ones the game has been dumbed down for)?
In spite of all that, I finally decided to keep the pre-order, play the early access and then probably put off entering my retail key for a few weeks, while I return my focus to Skyrim for my RPG fix.
Maybe I'll be surprised with higher level play and the game worlds I haven't reached yet, but, at this point, I can't see playing this game for more than a month or two. Hopefully it will fulfill my MMO needs just long enough for a better title to launch.
Someone is looking at the release of Vanila WoW with some rose colored glasses. SWTOR already has the size in terms of game world and content beat. Gameplay is just as fun. Animations are better, AND the art style looks better as well. Or at least the art style doesn't look like a poorly rendered Smurfs cartoon like both Vanila and Current WoW does. Even SWTOR's last beta weekend, which is not the most recent build, had less bugs than the release of Vanila WoW.
But then you go on to insult any adult that likes the game and I see that in fact you are Trolling and not using the rose colored glasses. Pathetic.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
If you removed the voiced, cutscene storyline, the game would fall below the bar set by Vanilla WoW all those years ago. The story does help to hook you into an otherwise lacking game, but I'm wondering how long before that gets old.
If the game were not Star Wars and it weren't for the resources devoted to the storyline, it would be well below par vs. other AAA MMOs released since WoW. I realized as I logged out from the Test Weekend earlier tonight that the core game falls some where between recent WoW and the more ambitious Free to Play Asian MMOs; as far as graphics, character models, gear, world and play experience go.
I also realized that the game takes the Star Wars MMO another huge step in the direction that Lucas Arts charted when they pushed SOE into the NGE that ruined Star Wars Galaxies. I think it's funny that there will also be a Clone Wars MMO targeted at a younger audience, since this game, aside from dark story elements, seems to already be a "kiddy" MMO. (Actually, considering how much better kids today are with technology and video games than their parents, maybe adults are the ones the game has been dumbed down for)?
In spite of all that, I finally decided to keep the pre-order, play the early access and then probably put off entering my retail key for a few weeks, while I return my focus to Skyrim for my RPG fix.
Maybe I'll be surprised with higher level play and the game worlds I haven't reached yet, but, at this point, I can't see playing this game for more than a month or two. Hopefully it will fulfill my MMO needs just long enough for a better title to launch.
So......even though you just shot down SWTOR and Lucasarts, you're actually supporting all of this simply to fulfill your MMO needs, even for a short while. Yeah, that makes sense.
Dude, pull your head out of your arse. SWTOR -1 ; Fiontar - 0.
i think a lot of people are suffering from mmo burnout and frankly are complaining about things being "same ole same ole" because they are getting older themselves.
stwor is not a WOW clone in my opinion. its a typical mmo and typical mmos have a lot of the same features. ford and chevy are both good vehicles and they share many of the same features. it comes down to personal taste.
i am over the dark ages. (as i am over small cars... ). i am going to swtor. (and i bought a truck.. just using that as a personal choice analogy)
www.insomniacsbar.com (my little bar that i own in florida)
Comments
I was worried about EA being involved since they tend to go for what will make them the most money and quickly and in mmorpgs they are almost always wrong. I knew themepark was going to backfire in some way, what I didn't count on was they would actually screw up the themepark aspect of the game as well. If its poorly implemented they are going to be scrapping to get out game patches to improve mmorpg features they should have worked on in the first place. Questing, customization, better space implementation, companions, better pvp mechanics and some more fluffy features, all the things they should have beein working on instead of VO. I think they got obsessed over VO so much they forgot they needed to make a multiplayer game.
Warhammer is a good example of the same thing, in different ways, they did what they wanted to do and ignored the player bases cries for what they wanted, now in an established fiction like Warhammer or Star Wars, this is typically not a good idea. For instance ALL WAR had to do was balance pvp and introduce Lizardmen and Skaven, thats it, instead they chose to imbalance pvp to keep one player group happy and a lame expansion that exited no one. And some kind of pvp ball game, probably alot like hutt ball. So for Star Wars to have only human races in a game that costs this much is a huge mistake, I mean I expect not to have race selection in a Free to Play title like perfect world, Rift AT LEAST has Dwarves its not much but come on, I would love to have played a Ithorian or a Manaan, my first thought of what race to play in Star Wars was not human believe me. Just adding a few races that were truly inhuman would alone boost sales, easily, instead people got human, red human, darker human and tentacle human. Lack of content and what I can describe as uninspired pvp are gonna hurt this game.
So what non-humanoid races would you think are playable from the SW universe? Bothan? Humanoid. Mon Cal? Humanoid. I think Hutts would be the only non-humanoid that played a significant role, and they aren't adventuring type.
the whole human only thing wouldn't bother me so much if they didn't use only a single model for every single race. And cyborg is just a huge cop-out its not even funny. I can see especially for dialogue purposes people not wanting to play a class that didnt speak english also if they did put in other races and had them speak english people would probably complain about that. Either way i do agree a lot more attention should of been put in some other areas than just the voice acting but well just have to hope they do well with content patches.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/339443/Video-FollowUp-Guide-For-Enhancing-Graphics-and-Performance-in-SWTORSorry-still-Nvidia-Only.html
my opinion:
game is flawed and does not break out of the mold enough to stand above the rest of other mmo's, still going to preorder due to liking bioware's work and expecting what i pay for.
I also had the same thought. There are pleanty of droid, or droid-like characters in the movies that would work as playable characters. Also, you have others like General Akbar's race. Who speaks english and looks alien. I know I would probably roll one of those just for the pleasure of yelling "IT'S A TRAP!"
- I also think the main issue (which was said a few posts earlier), is not that we need non-humanoid characters, but that the characters are almost all based on the same character models. It's like they took the same 5-6 models and then changed the accessories and skins on each one. You have human, human with glasses, human with tentacles, human with spikes, human colored red, human colored purple, gothic human, human with augments; and they are all under the pretense of being completely different races. It's unsatisfying in much the same way seeing a gorrilla in WoW ~ lvl 20, and then seeing that same gorrilla dyed purple and called 'epic bone crusher!' @ lvl 40 is just not very fulfilling.
Yea but as soon as you try to do that, then people are going to complain how in all the star wars movies and such, the majority was humanoid and they DID all look like humans with *, etc. No matter which way they went, someone was going to have a fit about it.
I dont mind the race chocies. The issue i have is u get 4 body types total. The rest of it is ok for me i dont need the kind of creater i can make my guy look like he just had the worst allergic reaction in his life
I d like more body types though
I'm not sure that makes their case any better. I mean sure, no game is objectively good or bad. I'm just voicing my opinion that their design decisions, whether made by necessity or preference, are questionable. In terms of what I'd personally enjoy, but also in terms of what I consider likely to make for a popular MMO - not just in box sales, but in the months and years to come.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but of course we're all just talking about opinions here. Any criticism is a matter of opinion. If a book is critiqued for having shallow one-dimensional characters, and the writer says that was intentional, how does that make it any better?
I remember when it was first announced that Bioware was making this game, and people were a little concerned that they might stick too closely to their single-player roots. and now, years later, that's exactly what they've done, and we see that in the process, it's less of a single-player game, and less of an MMO. While it is true that all they've done is combine the two, they seem to have managed to combine the worst of both, rather than the best of both, or even a balance of both.. except with a massive amount of dialogue to make up for it.
I think it's been layed out repeatedly, different areas where TOR is lacking, but other themeparks are not - and even ways in which TOR is lacking, but some of Bioware's single-player games are not.
Map design that's more linear than any other themepark I know of, but admittedly a hallmark of Bioware's.
Less customization than most MMOs, and in some ways even less than Bioware's single player games.
A gameworld that feels lifeless, not only compared to other themeparks, but compared to other Bioware games,
Combat that's oddly flat, compared to other themeparks and compared to games like Mass Effect or Dragon Age..
Do I need to keep going? I'm trying not the be this blatantly negative about the game, but I feel as if you're asking me to spell it out like this. How are these issues that can be applied to all themepark games or even all Bioware games?
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
SWTOR seems to be shaping up as a very solid and loved game. It'll be very interesting to see where it's at in about 6 months.
500k above in subs for 6 months would clearly sound like a positive for the game hands down.
we'll see if it happens or not.
I was too cautious to be enthusiastic about this game at first as ive been dissapointed with new MMO's entering the market too many times this past few years. However, looking at the beta videos for SWTOR i can say i am very very impressed and eagerly await the launch. The story is engaging and the voice acting is top notch and whilst that may not be enough for the rest of you, im one of those people who just wanted a KOTOR 3. I am happy to know that if i want to play this game for all the characters stories and then quit i can, and it wouldn't have been a failure in my eyes.
With that said, the gameplay looks smooth and polished anyway, and should keep myself and many others happy for the coming months. Im looking foreward to seeing how this game develops with updates and expansions over the next few years. May finally have found my new mmo home!
For me, a lot of it is about reasonableness of expectations. If you go into a hamburger joint, you have a reasonable expectation that the burgers will taste good, and if they don't, it makes sense to complain. Most of the complaints I have seen about TOR are more like going into a hamburger joint and complaining that there is no tofu burger on the menu, when no advertising or signage for the company has ever indicated that they serve tofu burgers. BioWare has made pretty much exactly the product their history and statements would lead a rational person to believe they were going to make.
I mean, come on, would you review the quality of a romantic comedy based on how well it works as an action movie?
As for combining the "worst of the two," I would have to disagree. In my (admittedly limited to a few dozen) hours playing, the game really does appear to have every standard themepark element implemented in full working order. The mechanics do exactly what I want them to in a game, they don't distract me from the story. It's a large part of why BioWare is my favorite developer.
As for the worst of the RPG elements, there are certainly some compromises at work, but I think they've done a pretty good job of only compromising the things that *have* to be in order to have any chance at holding a mass audience, when you don't have a save/reload feature. Certain kinds of choices, like permanently killing a companion, just aren't going to work for the masses when they can't hit "reload" if they regret the choice.
Does that suck for those of us who can handle consequences? Sure, but it makes sense from a business standpoint, and if my only options are having eight different stories across two factions, none of which let me kill companions, but all of which will continue to be expanded for years to come, or having exactly one story, in one faction, which will never be expanded, but which lets me kill companions, I'd rather go with the slightly more limited but far broader content which also comes packaged with greater longevity.
Well, let's look at your four bullet points. The first one you yourself admit is a normal design element for BioWare games. The second, lots of people are complaining about, and I would like to see addressed, but if we limit ourselves to MMOs which have actually been substantially successful, rather than just including *anything* that has been released, TOR's level of customization is actually pretty much average, like most of it's MMO mechanics. Not great enough to make the game appealing on their own, but not bad enough to offset the impact of the game's other elements if you enjoy them.
As far as the feeling lifeless one, I have to say that must really be a personal perception thing, because I still can't see it. I can't think of a single thing about WoW that would cause it to feel more alive than TOR, and the only element of Rift I can think of is the Rifts themselves. Other than that, I think full voiceover creates a *much* more alive gameworld than text boxes could ever hope to. In addition to that, having your character actually be able to make choices beyond "Accept Quest" and "Reject Quest" actually makes your character a participant in that world, instead of the bystander feeling from most MMOs.
As for combat, beyond really enjoying any game that lets me do head shots or bullet time, the only standard I've ever had for it is that I don't want it to distract me from the rest of the game (which the horrible mess of a system in the first Witcher game does) so I can't really say anything worth reading on that topic, other than it more than adequately meets the "non-distracting" standard for me.
As for your question, I hope I made it clear from my responses that I honestly don't see any of those bullet points, other than the customization one, as being something that is abnormal in previous BioWare games or previous themeparks, it all looks pretty par for the course to me. Obviously we can disagree, and nobody has to like the game BioWare has made, but I think it is reasonable to say that none of it's "flaws" are truly inconsistent with other BioWare games, all of which were critical and commercial successes, even if some were more successful than others.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
Just want to highlight that part of your response and say...
Neverwinter Nights.
Before even making a MMO they struck closer to a true MMORPG than arguably any other game wether they be RPG, MMORPG or Co-op RPG. And not only that but they implemented one of the best toolsets a game has ever seen and also done, arguably, one of the best implementations of a D&D based system a computer game has seen yet.
If they had managed to scale NWN up a bit more than it did support it truely would have been the definitive standard for MMORPG's.
yea basically they honestly could have just put human as race and let people put spikes on there head or a cyborg eye patch cause really thats all they did.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/339443/Video-FollowUp-Guide-For-Enhancing-Graphics-and-Performance-in-SWTORSorry-still-Nvidia-Only.html
very true I always see people defend horrible ideas put into games and people say well its fine because the developers intended it to be that way.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/339443/Video-FollowUp-Guide-For-Enhancing-Graphics-and-Performance-in-SWTORSorry-still-Nvidia-Only.html
And herein lies part of the problem; people confusing "idea I don't like" with "horrible idea." If a developer has a formula which consistenly churns out hits which are both commercially and critically successful, and they follow that formula, how is that an inherently "horrible" idea just because there is a segment of the gaming population that dislikes the formula?
What was remotely innovative about the game mechanics in Neverwinter Nights? As far as I recall, it was pretty standard D&D.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
If you want more WoW-esque type of gameplay, with a bit more story and a different setting (in space, whereas RIFT offers another fantasy setting), you'll love SWTOR.
He who keeps his cool best wins.
It's only credited as the first, and arguably, only decent implementation of D&D in an online game. Baldur's Gate et al are all nice and that but are still firmly turn based. NWN managed to get it running extremely well in a real-time format that facilitated the ability to play without pausing in an online envornment. I would mention DDO as well.. but yeah...
Throw in the fact that it has one of the best multiplayer experiences to have graced PC gaming and it's hard not to call it one of the best online RPG games created. The biggest difference between it and MMORPG's is that in NWN *you* are responsible for the content and gameplay, you know.. like in the original RPG's and table top games we were all responsible for implementing the rules, scenario and everything in between.
RPG's are all about playing the role you want to play. They are all about you making the choices, MMORPG's don't give you a level of freedom even remotely comparable. Most MMORPG's (Especially EQ/WoW styled ones) would be better labeled off as 'Skinner Box Games'.. At least then to title wouldn't be so misleading. And the worst part is that we all lap it up and ask for more. They are more akin to gambling than they are playing a table top RPG.
Go compare something like NWN to WoW and tell me WoW is a RPG. It's as much an RPG as NWN is an FPS.
Seriously though, if Neverwinter Nights could scale to support hundreds or thousands of people on a single server and had the kind of backing SW:TOR does it would be a runaway success. The problem Bioware had was monetising it. Since they weren't responsible for creating the player run servers they couldn't charge for it. The problem anyone has with it now is that the IP and rights are so all over the place nobody with any sense wants to touch it with a rusty barge pole.
I would never call WoW an RPG. I honestly think that we haven't had an MMORPG genre, just a MMO genre. TOR, TSW, and GW2 are going to be the start of the MMORPG era, for me, because my favorite style of RPG is the heavily scripted but still choice-filled BioWare variety.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
If you removed the voiced, cutscene storyline, the game would fall below the bar set by Vanilla WoW all those years ago. The story does help to hook you into an otherwise lacking game, but I'm wondering how long before that gets old.
If the game were not Star Wars and it weren't for the resources devoted to the storyline, it would be well below par vs. other AAA MMOs released since WoW. I realized as I logged out from the Test Weekend earlier tonight that the core game falls some where between recent WoW and the more ambitious Free to Play Asian MMOs; as far as graphics, character models, gear, world and play experience go.
I also realized that the game takes the Star Wars MMO another huge step in the direction that Lucas Arts charted when they pushed SOE into the NGE that ruined Star Wars Galaxies. I think it's funny that there will also be a Clone Wars MMO targeted at a younger audience, since this game, aside from dark story elements, seems to already be a "kiddy" MMO. (Actually, considering how much better kids today are with technology and video games than their parents, maybe adults are the ones the game has been dumbed down for)?
In spite of all that, I finally decided to keep the pre-order, play the early access and then probably put off entering my retail key for a few weeks, while I return my focus to Skyrim for my RPG fix.
Maybe I'll be surprised with higher level play and the game worlds I haven't reached yet, but, at this point, I can't see playing this game for more than a month or two. Hopefully it will fulfill my MMO needs just long enough for a better title to launch.
Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
Someone is looking at the release of Vanila WoW with some rose colored glasses. SWTOR already has the size in terms of game world and content beat. Gameplay is just as fun. Animations are better, AND the art style looks better as well. Or at least the art style doesn't look like a poorly rendered Smurfs cartoon like both Vanila and Current WoW does. Even SWTOR's last beta weekend, which is not the most recent build, had less bugs than the release of Vanila WoW.
But then you go on to insult any adult that likes the game and I see that in fact you are Trolling and not using the rose colored glasses. Pathetic.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
So......even though you just shot down SWTOR and Lucasarts, you're actually supporting all of this simply to fulfill your MMO needs, even for a short while. Yeah, that makes sense.
Dude, pull your head out of your arse. SWTOR -1 ; Fiontar - 0.
Whiners gonna whine. Players gonna play.
i like it personally.
i think a lot of people are suffering from mmo burnout and frankly are complaining about things being "same ole same ole" because they are getting older themselves.
stwor is not a WOW clone in my opinion. its a typical mmo and typical mmos have a lot of the same features. ford and chevy are both good vehicles and they share many of the same features. it comes down to personal taste.
i am over the dark ages. (as i am over small cars... ). i am going to swtor. (and i bought a truck.. just using that as a personal choice analogy)
www.insomniacsbar.com (my little bar that i own in florida)