While I agree with some posters here, that the environment in SWTOR does not feel as alive or dynamic as some other games such as AoC as it was used in some previous examples. To say SWTOR completely lack in this area is wrong as those video do show there is "stuff" going on in the background in some places. However this could definitely be improved upon, and I wish they could add more in down the track.
With that said, I'd like to point out that although AoC looks very alive or dynamic, the average PC does not run the game very well, and to have the game settings in a playable state, most would not see these fog effects or environmental details which makes the world feel dynamic. Of course they can add in all sorts of things to SWTOR to give this dynamic feeling of a living breathing world, but there's also the balance of adding too much which causes additional lag when too much is on screen at the same time.
As someone said earlier I'd rather much play a smooth running game, than be blown away with how awesome how everything look and feel only to have it slow down with lag when action takes place.
The most "Alive" game world I ever played in was Saga of Ryzom. In that game certain fauna have migration patterns and they may be in certain areas of the game world during one month and another in the next. Also same goes with the flora. Certain flora are in season during certain months while others are not. Then you have night and day cycles were some creatures (or plants) come out only during the day and other only during the night. Then on top of all of this you have certain predators who hunt alone or in packs along with herd grazers who are cautious of your presence. In either case be it herd or pack animals if you attack one you may get the whole group come to their aide and force you to run away. Every other game IMHO pales in comparison to what they have in Saga of Ryzom, despite its aging graphics.
Games I've played/tried out:WAR, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, AoC, EQ1, EQ2, WoW, Vangaurd, FFXI, D&DO, Lineage 2, Saga Of Ryzom, EvE Online, DAoC, Guild Wars,Star Wars Galaxies, Hell Gate London, Auto Assault, Grando Espada ( AKA SoTNW ), Archlord, CoV/H, Star Trek Online, APB, Champions Online, FFXIV, Rift Online, GW2.
Interesting choice for the AoC video, because that's a pretty dead looking swamp - and yet, if the player stops moving, and just watches the scene, they see a variety of subtle movements all over the place. From the mobs shambling around, to the writhing pod thing, to some of trees and foliage moving in the wind, contrasting with the dead branches that are intentionally not moving at all. With the fog, you could even say the entire scene is in constant movement.
In TOR, if you stop, and just watch a scene, you might see a single NPC repeating an emote, or an animated backdrop, but mostly, the only movement you'll see at all will be when another player runs by.
I think sound also plays an important part, though hard to find a video to show it. You might hear wildlife in a forest, or ambient marketplace sounds in a town, and that sort of thing. In a town, focusing too much on clear voice-overs can even have the opposite effect, because they get repetitive and it might feel odd, overhearing other people's conversations so clearly. Sometimes it works best to use sounds that merely imply life.
Music can make a big difference, too.. and I didn't think much of what I heard in TOR. You have the opening track, but not much of anything as I'd run from area to area. Maybe that's just because it's beta, though.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
From my own perspective I don't really see an NPC/mob walking the same path endlessly to be any more immersive than one standnng in the same spot endlessly. It's the same thing to me, that NPC is doing the same thing all the time, to me it doesn't matter what they're doing, if they never change what they're doing.
Sadly this is the case for just about every MMO aside from Ryzom, and to a lesser extent SWG (which will be non-existent in a few weeks). Good thing TES games exist, eh?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Interesting choice for the AoC video, because that's a pretty dead looking swamp - and yet, if the player stops moving, and just watches the scene, they see a variety of subtle movements all over the place. From the mobs shambling around, to the writhing pod thing, to some of trees and foliage moving in the wind, contrasting with the dead branches that are intentionally not moving at all. With the fog, you could even say the entire scene is in constant movement.
In TOR, if you stop, and just watch a scene, you might see a single NPC repeating an emote, or an animated backdrop, but mostly, the only movement you'll see at all will be when another player runs by.
I think sound also plays an important part, though hard to find a video to show it. You might hear wildlife in a forest, or ambient marketplace sounds in a town, and that sort of thing. In a town, focusing too much on clear voice-overs can even have the opposite effect, because they get repetitive and it might feel odd, overhearing other people's conversations so clearly. Sometimes it works best to use sounds that merely imply life.
Music can make a big difference, too.. and I didn't think much of what I heard in TOR. You have the opening track, but not much of anything as I'd run from area to area. Maybe that's just because it's beta, though.
which is why I choose that video. Nothing really going on but how just standing there you feel like the world is alive. Obviously engines are differn't but shows to me at least how much little tiny atmospheric effects can really bring an area together.
While I agree with some posters here, that the environment in SWTOR does not feel as alive or dynamic as some other games such as AoC as it was used in some previous examples. To say SWTOR completely lack in this area is wrong as those video do show there is "stuff" going on in the background in some places. However this could definitely be improved upon, and I wish they could add more in down the track.
With that said, I'd like to point out that although AoC looks very alive or dynamic, the average PC does not run the game very well, and to have the game settings in a playable state, most would not see these fog effects or environmental details which makes the world feel dynamic. Of course they can add in all sorts of things to SWTOR to give this dynamic feeling of a living breathing world, but there's also the balance of adding too much which causes additional lag when too much is on screen at the same time.
As someone said earlier I'd rather much play a smooth running game, than be blown away with how awesome how everything look and feel only to have it slow down with lag when action takes place.
I see the average pc user can't run AoC argument alot. Although I somewhat agree I always felt thats why you have high and low settings to begin with, Although AoC had a lot more issues than just that and it was poorly optimized. If you have a aging PC play on lower settings. For a lot of us who having gaming rigs I'd love more effects I could turn on to add more atmosphere into the world.
Interesting choice for the AoC video, because that's a pretty dead looking swamp - and yet, if the player stops moving, and just watches the scene, they see a variety of subtle movements all over the place. From the mobs shambling around, to the writhing pod thing, to some of trees and foliage moving in the wind, contrasting with the dead branches that are intentionally not moving at all. With the fog, you could even say the entire scene is in constant movement.
In TOR, if you stop, and just watch a scene, you might see a single NPC repeating an emote, or an animated backdrop, but mostly, the only movement you'll see at all will be when another player runs by.
I think sound also plays an important part, though hard to find a video to show it. You might hear wildlife in a forest, or ambient marketplace sounds in a town, and that sort of thing. In a town, focusing too much on clear voice-overs can even have the opposite effect, because they get repetitive and it might feel odd, overhearing other people's conversations so clearly. Sometimes it works best to use sounds that merely imply life.
Music can make a big difference, too.. and I didn't think much of what I heard in TOR. You have the opening track, but not much of anything as I'd run from area to area. Maybe that's just because it's beta, though.
I think the difference lies in something different.
When I watch the AOC footage the place gives me an eerie but also serene feeling. Mostly this is due to the exceptional music, ambient sounds (or lack thereof), moving mists, monsters in the fog.
i agree that the world for the most part seems lifeless. i still enjoyed it, pre ordered, blah blah but yea i noticed it especially going into the bigger cities(d. kass) all this big area with nothing going on. i could be a little jaded as i'm about 70hrs. into skyrim and well no gaming world has ever been more alive than that one
That's a problem
I don't think the enjoyment centers of our brains care much whether or not a game is an MMO or not... it just recognizes fun. I play Skyrim and I feel like I'm slipping off into some magical world where I can't wait to see what is over the next hill or inside the next cave... a world where I feel like I can make my own way.
I play ToR and I feel like I'm playing the same MMO I've been playing for 10 years (and it looks about 5 years older than Skyrim)... where I can look forward to a levelling treadmill, arena pvp, and a gear grind for endgame.
I can live with how the world looks now, but. I would love some animals running around, like critters in the city and such. And the most importan thing is for me, CHAT BUBBLES! Chat bubbles alone, make the cities and worls look so much more alive. Anyone know if they will add this in the game?
I really don't care about what the mobs are doing in the game since I saw a pretty good variety of actions going on. More would always be nice, but not necessary yet. Same goes for most of the NPCs, though it bothered me a little that I would walk into a bazarre and nobody would be trying to sell me anything. What bothered me the most was that I saw no wildlife other than large beasts. A few birds and rabbits and such, would go a long ways. The ambient sounds that some people are talking about would be nice as well. Heck, even in the cities we should be seeing some stray "cats" or some such running around.
One thing I am keeping in mind though, is that even the November beta weekends were not on the "Release" build. Before I make any judgements on how "alive" this world is, I need to see the actual real world I will be playing in and I will not be trusting anyone elses "experiences" on this until I see it for myself.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
Interesting choice for the AoC video, because that's a pretty dead looking swamp - and yet, if the player stops moving, and just watches the scene, they see a variety of subtle movements all over the place. From the mobs shambling around, to the writhing pod thing, to some of trees and foliage moving in the wind, contrasting with the dead branches that are intentionally not moving at all. With the fog, you could even say the entire scene is in constant movement.
In TOR, if you stop, and just watch a scene, you might see a single NPC repeating an emote, or an animated backdrop, but mostly, the only movement you'll see at all will be when another player runs by.
I think sound also plays an important part, though hard to find a video to show it. You might hear wildlife in a forest, or ambient marketplace sounds in a town, and that sort of thing. In a town, focusing too much on clear voice-overs can even have the opposite effect, because they get repetitive and it might feel odd, overhearing other people's conversations so clearly. Sometimes it works best to use sounds that merely imply life.
Music can make a big difference, too.. and I didn't think much of what I heard in TOR. You have the opening track, but not much of anything as I'd run from area to area. Maybe that's just because it's beta, though.
I think the difference lies in something different.
When I watch the AOC footage the place gives me an eerie but also serene feeling. Mostly this is due to the exceptional music, ambient sounds (or lack thereof), moving mists, monsters in the fog.
Its an area of peace and contemplation and the sound, level, graphics and aesthetics design perfectly show this to us.
While watching the SWTOR footage i get the -exact- same feeling, EXCEPT its supposed to be a war-zone.
What I expect to be conveyed in a warzone, especially in the style of the prequel movies, is high-octane battles, explosions in the background, etc.
Yes the music is a bit more menacing and dark but thats not enough.
I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with, exactly? I was trying to be more specific than just saying that its the sound and graphics that make the difference, but it does seem to be a tricky thing to pin down precisely. One thing I've noticed, as I thought about this thread while watching videos of past MMOs I've played, like LOTRO, Aion, and AOC, is that they each have a somewhat different approach to making the world feel alive - but they all succeed pretty well.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
It's funny because when I was putting down my opinion I was trying my best to not include anything that points to a particular game. But after reading my post I can see where at least one game is going to have all of the elements that I feel are missing. Didn't want to point it because you know that the moment you do, your points become irrelevant and you get that label that starts with a t, and ends with a roll. Especially mentioning that game in this forum. your video does a nice job showing what I meant in just the city, now apply that to the rest of the game world and there ya go, a living breathing world as I see it.
It's a good thing that the OP tries to show us what he means by "alive", but it's immediately apparent that such a quality is very hard to objectively determine.
The first TOR video obviously shows a lot of ambiance going on.
The second one exists mostly of wide area shots and really isn't a fair comparison to the closer shots in the AOC video.
I do agree with the OP in some way, but not in a generalised sense. The world of TOR felt very much alive to me in many places, but I also came across some awkward spots where any kind of ambient sound or NPC's or ... well ... *anything* was missing.
As an example, Hutta had this in some places where you entered large industrial areas, little ambiance, not much happening. As an Imperial Agent, the first hour or so of the storyline didn't really feel very guided either: you felt like you were thrown into something and soon got overwhelmed with sidequests.
Tython, on the other hand, didn't have this problem, as you were gently set on your way and then left free to explore.
Dromund Kaas also had some lack of ambiance in many of the city's open, grey area's.
Stuff like the sun's glare and such that is seen in the AOC video could also be used more imo.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
Interesting choice for the AoC video, because that's a pretty dead looking swamp - and yet, if the player stops moving, and just watches the scene, they see a variety of subtle movements all over the place. From the mobs shambling around, to the writhing pod thing, to some of trees and foliage moving in the wind, contrasting with the dead branches that are intentionally not moving at all. With the fog, you could even say the entire scene is in constant movement.
In TOR, if you stop, and just watch a scene, you might see a single NPC repeating an emote, or an animated backdrop, but mostly, the only movement you'll see at all will be when another player runs by.
I think sound also plays an important part, though hard to find a video to show it. You might hear wildlife in a forest, or ambient marketplace sounds in a town, and that sort of thing. In a town, focusing too much on clear voice-overs can even have the opposite effect, because they get repetitive and it might feel odd, overhearing other people's conversations so clearly. Sometimes it works best to use sounds that merely imply life.
Music can make a big difference, too.. and I didn't think much of what I heard in TOR. You have the opening track, but not much of anything as I'd run from area to area. Maybe that's just because it's beta, though.
I think the difference lies in something different.
When I watch the AOC footage the place gives me an eerie but also serene feeling. Mostly this is due to the exceptional music, ambient sounds (or lack thereof), moving mists, monsters in the fog.
Its an area of peace and contemplation and the sound, level, graphics and aesthetics design perfectly show this to us.
While watching the SWTOR footage i get the -exact- same feeling, EXCEPT its supposed to be a war-zone.
What I expect to be conveyed in a warzone, especially in the style of the prequel movies, is high-octane battles, explosions in the background, etc.
Yes the music is a bit more menacing and dark but thats not enough.
I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with, exactly? I was trying to be more specific than just saying that its the sound and graphics that make the difference, but it does seem to be a tricky thing to pin down precisely. One thing I've noticed, as I thought about this thread while watching videos of past MMOs I've played, like LOTRO, Aion, and AOC, is that they each have a somewhat different approach to making the world feel alive - but they all succeed pretty well.
Im not disagreeing with you at all, I'm agreeing and complimenting your post with my perspective.
1. No fish in the water, no swimming, no squirrels birds rabbits anything, the bestiary was a very cool feature, but the beasts all take three steps and turn around, WTF is that? Imagine how cool the beastiary would be if the beasts had migration patterns and you had to find them to get the xp as a sort of xp side game? Guess I am never going to play Kit Fisto or Akbar's race.
2. No day and night cycle, ridiculous, wow had this eq1 had this
3. Weather read above
4. Ambient sounds where are they
5. NPCs being nothing but pretty placeholders, I hope this changes on release, I mean sheesh guys you didn't have to voice them, simple one sentence text responses would have been enough
6. Packs of animals stay in one place, they don't do anything at all. wth is that?
Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!
It's funny because when I was putting down my opinion I was trying my best to not include anything that points to a particular game. But after reading my post I can see where at least one game is going to have all of the elements that I feel are missing. Didn't want to point it because you know that the moment you do, your points become irrelevant and you get that label that starts with a t, and ends with a roll. Especially mentioning that game in this forum. your video does a nice job showing what I meant in just the city, now apply that to the rest of the game world and there ya go, a living breathing world as I see it.
agreed very much with video and post. This is sort of thing that would bring soooo much to this game and the world as a whole I just don't understand how it seemed to of gotten so neglected during all the years it took to develop the game.
1. No fish in the water, no swimming, no squirrels birds rabbits anything, the bestiary was a very cool feature, but the beasts all take three steps and turn around, WTF is that? Imagine how cool the beastiary would be if the beasts had migration patterns and you had to find them to get the xp as a sort of xp side game? Guess I am never going to play Kit Fisto or Akbar's race.
2. No day and night cycle, ridiculous, wow had this eq1 had this
3. Weather read above
4. Ambient sounds where are they
5. NPCs being nothing but pretty placeholders, I hope this changes on release, I mean sheesh guys you didn't have to voice them, simple one sentence text responses would have been enough
6. Packs of animals stay in one place, they don't do anything at all. wth is that?
although there is weather from what I saw its static in areas. So if theres some snow falling there its always falling there. Most the other points i tend to agree with and wonder why there were not added. For some I have noticed they don't notice or don't care but for a lot of us it's just little touches here and there that can add so much to a game. Luckily nothing here is really hard to implement so I'm hopefull these things are planned..
Oh just wanted to note on the race thing I think it would seem silly to play a Mon Calamari character with a human voice and I feel with so much dialog hearing the Mon dialect would get very annoying. Also Mon jedi would feel just silly. I'm fine with just human types since it fits the voices but give us more body options please!
"YOU almost spilled my drink. And I almost had to wipe it up with your face!" Looks good.. I still pretty much hate fast travel in MMO's these days.. Mounts and community travel seem like a better alternative.. Gone are the days of community travel (think the boats in Everquest) where you could take a break as you head to your destination and socialize with the people on board.. And mounts of course would make a long "walk" pretty short and in the case of Vanguard's flying mounts, you wouldn't even mind taking in all the sights.. But I still think GW2 will be a good game.. Despite all the E-Sports attention they got from GW1 they opted to take the MMORPG route.. Kudos to them as this could of been like Fury, an arena combat game only..
Originally posted by Maquiame 1. No fish in the water, no swimming, no squirrels birds rabbits anything, the bestiary was a very cool feature, but the beasts all take three steps and turn around, WTF is that? Imagine how cool the beastiary would be if the beasts had migration patterns and you had to find them to get the xp as a sort of xp side game? Guess I am never going to play Kit Fisto or Akbar's race. 2. No day and night cycle, ridiculous, wow had this eq1 had this 3. Weather read above 4. Ambient sounds where are they 5. NPCs being nothing but pretty placeholders, I hope this changes on release, I mean sheesh guys you didn't have to voice them, simple one sentence text responses would have been enough 6. Packs of animals stay in one place, they don't do anything at all. wth is that?
While I agree on your points, I feel that it's okay for day and night and weather to get left out if they have no effect on gameplay.. The only game that somewhat got it right was EQ in that at night the view distance and actual lighting got very very dark requiring a torch in some areas or night vision.
If the night and day look basically the same save the sky texture, and weather effects don't effect any kind of skills or stats, then its unnecessary imo..
It's funny because when I was putting down my opinion I was trying my best to not include anything that points to a particular game. But after reading my post I can see where at least one game is going to have all of the elements that I feel are missing. Didn't want to point it because you know that the moment you do, your points become irrelevant and you get that label that starts with a t, and ends with a roll. Especially mentioning that game in this forum. your video does a nice job showing what I meant in just the city, now apply that to the rest of the game world and there ya go, a living breathing world as I see it.
I swear to God I was trying to do the same thing without even mentioning this, because I did take the time in pre alpha and my friends, we noticed it wasn't just that type of area either. Oh and the date of the video is even more interesting.
Well I agree with the OP I noticed this when beta testing SWTOR and...well I'll just leave it there
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agreed very much with video and post. This is sort of thing that would bring soooo much to this game and the world as a whole I just don't understand how it seemed to of gotten so neglected during all the years it took to develop the game.
What I don't get is what's the difference? If we're simply discussing npcs moving around. IN that GW2 shot in each area it showed a vast majority of NPCs were stationary, while one or two walked a path.
Same thing in TOR which if you watch multiple videos as I just did (not to mention months of beta, and locations seen) looking at these comparisons, if they're not walking, most are interacting with an object or another npc. Really what difference is there? Most MMO worlds are rather static when you view them with no players around.
I've always felt i have a good eye for atmosphere ( figured I got that from my years as an art major), not claiming to be an expert on the subject, I'm just saying, I'm not seeing as much a contrast as some seem to be pointing out. Looks to me as it's more a matter of seeing what people want to see, maybe I'm doing more of the same here.
All that said, Isn't the whole point here for players to add life to these games? I see all of these posts about making your own story", "no need for stories on quests", "Vo is worthless", etc... All in the name of "immersion through palyers". Yet all of the former additions are in the name of "giving life to the world you're in", if they're not important why is how many steps an NPC takes?
You could ask the opposite as well toward the other side, if VO is important why isn't the world implementation?
note: I'm rather impartial to this issue, VO gives TOR points. World aspects (in all mmos) take some away.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
While I agree on your points, I feel that it's okay for day and night and weather to get left out if they have no effect on gameplay.. The only game that somewhat got it right was EQ in that at night the view distance and actual lighting got very very dark requiring a torch in some areas or night vision.
If the night and day look basically the same save the sky texture, and weather effects don't effect any kind of skills or stats, then its unnecessary imo..
BUT if done right it add so much to a game. For me it's not the gameplay its the story and this game is mostly about its story and how better immerse your customer in your story then have a "real" feeling world. For me the type of gamer who would not care about atmospheric effects or anything I have been talking about is the same who play this game and hit the space bar through all the story segments. If you are just here for the pvp and the flashpoints and don't care about anything else then yes i can see how nothing I have brought up would matter(and thats fine its how you wish to play the game). But people who like rpg's for the story and like to be part of the world I really don't understand how a lot of whats been left out of this game in this respect doesn't bother you.
While I agree on your points, I feel that it's okay for day and night and weather to get left out if they have no effect on gameplay.. The only game that somewhat got it right was EQ in that at night the view distance and actual lighting got very very dark requiring a torch in some areas or night vision.
If the night and day look basically the same save the sky texture, and weather effects don't effect any kind of skills or stats, then its unnecessary imo..
BUT if done right it add so much to a game. For me it's not the gameplay its the story and this game is mostly about its story and how better immerse your customer in your story then have a "real" feeling world. For me the type of gamer who would not care about atmospheric effects or anything I have been talking about is the same who play this game and hit the space bar through all the story segments. If you are just here for the pvp and the flashpoints and don't care about anything else then yes i can see how nothing I have brought up would matter(and thats fine its how you wish to play the game). But people who like rpg's for the story and like to be part of the world I really don't understand how a lot of whats been left out of this game in this respect doesn't bother you.
Immersion huh? Would you agree that certain things are more difficult to do in the rain than fair weather?
Would you agree that it is harder to see naturally at night than it is during the day?
Trudging through the snow would be somewhat more exhausting than walking on a paved road, would it not?
These are the things I was referring to, and all of these are factors that could and should affect gameplay. Truthfully if weather and day cycles DID exist and did not do something remotely close to it's real world counterpart it would be immersion breaking for me..
It would be like playing a driving game where it rained yet the tires and car handled the same as if it were sunny and dry conditions.. What would be the point?
Swtor def has a very clunky system of npc placement/sprawl. the ai in open world is pretty pathetic for a current gen AAA mmo.
Towns and hubs also feel very dead and pointless. the gimmick of the space station hub dynamic was an idiotic choice. they all felt very dead. buildings feel like dead. large pointless hallways with pointless locked rooms. or empty chambers or one random npc milling about.
the OP has some valid points.
but to counter the OP the vid clip he showed was of an instance dungeon. in swtor the flashpoints few much more alive the story, the pacing, the music/sound, stuff exploding, npcs running off. etc etc etc. it's an entirely different thing. much like in age of conan. the towns were your typic crap standing around. doing absolutely nothing all day long. nothing changes in AoC either.
i think dynamic content is coming. i think GW2 will try some of this ...and it'll be interesting to see.
but swtor clearly didn't go for this. they're leaning very heavily on the story elements your encounter by doing class quests/general questing. and the "star wars" sights and sounds.
Immersion huh? Would you agree that certain things are more difficult to do in the rain than fair weather?
Would you agree that it is harder to see naturally at night than it is during the day?
Trudging through the snow would be somewhat more exhausting than walking on a paved road, would it not?
These are the things I was referring to, and all of these are factors that could and should affect gameplay. Truthfully if weather and day cycles DID exist and did not do something remotely close to it's real world counterpart it would be immersion breaking for me..
It would be like playing a driving game where it rained yet the tires and car handled the same as if it were sunny and dry conditions.. What would be the point?
I would be immensly happy if they added effects like this and they did effect gameplay it would even more than just having them. But MMOs seem to find just the first step a little much let alone having the enviornment effect the way you play. But same can be said for most games even single player. Take skyrim for example. Aside from making it harder to see the snow storm doesn't seem to slow my movement speed or how fast I swing my sword. Either way for me I'd personally rather have these effects and not have them effect gameplay than not have them at all. Would I like them to do all that you describe? hell yes but think thats going to be a long time coming especially for this genre.
Comments
While I agree with some posters here, that the environment in SWTOR does not feel as alive or dynamic as some other games such as AoC as it was used in some previous examples. To say SWTOR completely lack in this area is wrong as those video do show there is "stuff" going on in the background in some places. However this could definitely be improved upon, and I wish they could add more in down the track.
With that said, I'd like to point out that although AoC looks very alive or dynamic, the average PC does not run the game very well, and to have the game settings in a playable state, most would not see these fog effects or environmental details which makes the world feel dynamic. Of course they can add in all sorts of things to SWTOR to give this dynamic feeling of a living breathing world, but there's also the balance of adding too much which causes additional lag when too much is on screen at the same time.
As someone said earlier I'd rather much play a smooth running game, than be blown away with how awesome how everything look and feel only to have it slow down with lag when action takes place.
The most "Alive" game world I ever played in was Saga of Ryzom. In that game certain fauna have migration patterns and they may be in certain areas of the game world during one month and another in the next. Also same goes with the flora. Certain flora are in season during certain months while others are not. Then you have night and day cycles were some creatures (or plants) come out only during the day and other only during the night. Then on top of all of this you have certain predators who hunt alone or in packs along with herd grazers who are cautious of your presence. In either case be it herd or pack animals if you attack one you may get the whole group come to their aide and force you to run away. Every other game IMHO pales in comparison to what they have in Saga of Ryzom, despite its aging graphics.
Games I've played/tried out:WAR, LOTRO, Tabula Rasa, AoC, EQ1, EQ2, WoW, Vangaurd, FFXI, D&DO, Lineage 2, Saga Of Ryzom, EvE Online, DAoC, Guild Wars,Star Wars Galaxies, Hell Gate London, Auto Assault, Grando Espada ( AKA SoTNW ), Archlord, CoV/H, Star Trek Online, APB, Champions Online, FFXIV, Rift Online, GW2.
Game(s) I Am Currently Playing:
GW2 (+LoL and BF3)
Interesting choice for the AoC video, because that's a pretty dead looking swamp - and yet, if the player stops moving, and just watches the scene, they see a variety of subtle movements all over the place. From the mobs shambling around, to the writhing pod thing, to some of trees and foliage moving in the wind, contrasting with the dead branches that are intentionally not moving at all. With the fog, you could even say the entire scene is in constant movement.
In TOR, if you stop, and just watch a scene, you might see a single NPC repeating an emote, or an animated backdrop, but mostly, the only movement you'll see at all will be when another player runs by.
I think sound also plays an important part, though hard to find a video to show it. You might hear wildlife in a forest, or ambient marketplace sounds in a town, and that sort of thing. In a town, focusing too much on clear voice-overs can even have the opposite effect, because they get repetitive and it might feel odd, overhearing other people's conversations so clearly. Sometimes it works best to use sounds that merely imply life.
Music can make a big difference, too.. and I didn't think much of what I heard in TOR. You have the opening track, but not much of anything as I'd run from area to area. Maybe that's just because it's beta, though.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
From my own perspective I don't really see an NPC/mob walking the same path endlessly to be any more immersive than one standnng in the same spot endlessly. It's the same thing to me, that NPC is doing the same thing all the time, to me it doesn't matter what they're doing, if they never change what they're doing.
Sadly this is the case for just about every MMO aside from Ryzom, and to a lesser extent SWG (which will be non-existent in a few weeks). Good thing TES games exist, eh?
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
which is why I choose that video. Nothing really going on but how just standing there you feel like the world is alive. Obviously engines are differn't but shows to me at least how much little tiny atmospheric effects can really bring an area together.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/339443/Video-FollowUp-Guide-For-Enhancing-Graphics-and-Performance-in-SWTORSorry-still-Nvidia-Only.html
I see the average pc user can't run AoC argument alot. Although I somewhat agree I always felt thats why you have high and low settings to begin with, Although AoC had a lot more issues than just that and it was poorly optimized. If you have a aging PC play on lower settings. For a lot of us who having gaming rigs I'd love more effects I could turn on to add more atmosphere into the world.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/339443/Video-FollowUp-Guide-For-Enhancing-Graphics-and-Performance-in-SWTORSorry-still-Nvidia-Only.html
I think the difference lies in something different.
When I watch the AOC footage the place gives me an eerie but also serene feeling. Mostly this is due to the exceptional music, ambient sounds (or lack thereof), moving mists, monsters in the fog.
Another good example is this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IIla67nsHE
Its an area of peace and contemplation and the sound, level, graphics and aesthetics design perfectly show this to us.
While watching the SWTOR footage i get the -exact- same feeling, EXCEPT its supposed to be a war-zone.
What I expect to be conveyed in a warzone, especially in the style of the prequel movies, is high-octane battles, explosions in the background, etc.
Yes the music is a bit more menacing and dark but thats not enough.
I'll just leave this here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqwbS4sMgoY
That's a problem
I don't think the enjoyment centers of our brains care much whether or not a game is an MMO or not... it just recognizes fun. I play Skyrim and I feel like I'm slipping off into some magical world where I can't wait to see what is over the next hill or inside the next cave... a world where I feel like I can make my own way.
I play ToR and I feel like I'm playing the same MMO I've been playing for 10 years (and it looks about 5 years older than Skyrim)... where I can look forward to a levelling treadmill, arena pvp, and a gear grind for endgame.
I can live with how the world looks now, but. I would love some animals running around, like critters in the city and such. And the most importan thing is for me, CHAT BUBBLES! Chat bubbles alone, make the cities and worls look so much more alive. Anyone know if they will add this in the game?
I really don't care about what the mobs are doing in the game since I saw a pretty good variety of actions going on. More would always be nice, but not necessary yet. Same goes for most of the NPCs, though it bothered me a little that I would walk into a bazarre and nobody would be trying to sell me anything. What bothered me the most was that I saw no wildlife other than large beasts. A few birds and rabbits and such, would go a long ways. The ambient sounds that some people are talking about would be nice as well. Heck, even in the cities we should be seeing some stray "cats" or some such running around.
One thing I am keeping in mind though, is that even the November beta weekends were not on the "Release" build. Before I make any judgements on how "alive" this world is, I need to see the actual real world I will be playing in and I will not be trusting anyone elses "experiences" on this until I see it for myself.
"If half of what you tell me is a lie, how can I believe any of it?"
I'm not sure what you're disagreeing with, exactly? I was trying to be more specific than just saying that its the sound and graphics that make the difference, but it does seem to be a tricky thing to pin down precisely. One thing I've noticed, as I thought about this thread while watching videos of past MMOs I've played, like LOTRO, Aion, and AOC, is that they each have a somewhat different approach to making the world feel alive - but they all succeed pretty well.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
It's funny because when I was putting down my opinion I was trying my best to not include anything that points to a particular game. But after reading my post I can see where at least one game is going to have all of the elements that I feel are missing. Didn't want to point it because you know that the moment you do, your points become irrelevant and you get that label that starts with a t, and ends with a roll. Especially mentioning that game in this forum. your video does a nice job showing what I meant in just the city, now apply that to the rest of the game world and there ya go, a living breathing world as I see it.
RIP Jimmy "The Rev" Sullivan and Paul Gray.
It's a good thing that the OP tries to show us what he means by "alive", but it's immediately apparent that such a quality is very hard to objectively determine.
The first TOR video obviously shows a lot of ambiance going on.
The second one exists mostly of wide area shots and really isn't a fair comparison to the closer shots in the AOC video.
I do agree with the OP in some way, but not in a generalised sense. The world of TOR felt very much alive to me in many places, but I also came across some awkward spots where any kind of ambient sound or NPC's or ... well ... *anything* was missing.
As an example, Hutta had this in some places where you entered large industrial areas, little ambiance, not much happening. As an Imperial Agent, the first hour or so of the storyline didn't really feel very guided either: you felt like you were thrown into something and soon got overwhelmed with sidequests.
Tython, on the other hand, didn't have this problem, as you were gently set on your way and then left free to explore.
Dromund Kaas also had some lack of ambiance in many of the city's open, grey area's.
Stuff like the sun's glare and such that is seen in the AOC video could also be used more imo.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
Im not disagreeing with you at all, I'm agreeing and complimenting your post with my perspective.
1. No fish in the water, no swimming, no squirrels birds rabbits anything, the bestiary was a very cool feature, but the beasts all take three steps and turn around, WTF is that? Imagine how cool the beastiary would be if the beasts had migration patterns and you had to find them to get the xp as a sort of xp side game? Guess I am never going to play Kit Fisto or Akbar's race.
2. No day and night cycle, ridiculous, wow had this eq1 had this
3. Weather read above
4. Ambient sounds where are they
5. NPCs being nothing but pretty placeholders, I hope this changes on release, I mean sheesh guys you didn't have to voice them, simple one sentence text responses would have been enough
6. Packs of animals stay in one place, they don't do anything at all. wth is that?
Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!
agreed very much with video and post. This is sort of thing that would bring soooo much to this game and the world as a whole I just don't understand how it seemed to of gotten so neglected during all the years it took to develop the game.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/339443/Video-FollowUp-Guide-For-Enhancing-Graphics-and-Performance-in-SWTORSorry-still-Nvidia-Only.html
although there is weather from what I saw its static in areas. So if theres some snow falling there its always falling there. Most the other points i tend to agree with and wonder why there were not added. For some I have noticed they don't notice or don't care but for a lot of us it's just little touches here and there that can add so much to a game. Luckily nothing here is really hard to implement so I'm hopefull these things are planned..
Oh just wanted to note on the race thing I think it would seem silly to play a Mon Calamari character with a human voice and I feel with so much dialog hearing the Mon dialect would get very annoying. Also Mon jedi would feel just silly. I'm fine with just human types since it fits the voices but give us more body options please!
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/339443/Video-FollowUp-Guide-For-Enhancing-Graphics-and-Performance-in-SWTORSorry-still-Nvidia-Only.html
"YOU almost spilled my drink. And I almost had to wipe it up with your face!"
Looks good.. I still pretty much hate fast travel in MMO's these days.. Mounts and community travel seem like a better alternative.. Gone are the days of community travel (think the boats in Everquest) where you could take a break as you head to your destination and socialize with the people on board.. And mounts of course would make a long "walk" pretty short and in the case of Vanguard's flying mounts, you wouldn't even mind taking in all the sights..
But I still think GW2 will be a good game.. Despite all the E-Sports attention they got from GW1 they opted to take the MMORPG route.. Kudos to them as this could of been like Fury, an arena combat game only..
While I agree on your points, I feel that it's okay for day and night and weather to get left out if they have no effect on gameplay.. The only game that somewhat got it right was EQ in that at night the view distance and actual lighting got very very dark requiring a torch in some areas or night vision.
If the night and day look basically the same save the sky texture, and weather effects don't effect any kind of skills or stats, then its unnecessary imo..
I swear to God I was trying to do the same thing without even mentioning this, because I did take the time in pre alpha and my friends, we noticed it wasn't just that type of area either. Oh and the date of the video is even more interesting.
Well I agree with the OP I noticed this when beta testing SWTOR and...well I'll just leave it there
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
What I don't get is what's the difference? If we're simply discussing npcs moving around. IN that GW2 shot in each area it showed a vast majority of NPCs were stationary, while one or two walked a path.
Same thing in TOR which if you watch multiple videos as I just did (not to mention months of beta, and locations seen) looking at these comparisons, if they're not walking, most are interacting with an object or another npc. Really what difference is there? Most MMO worlds are rather static when you view them with no players around.
I've always felt i have a good eye for atmosphere ( figured I got that from my years as an art major), not claiming to be an expert on the subject, I'm just saying, I'm not seeing as much a contrast as some seem to be pointing out. Looks to me as it's more a matter of seeing what people want to see, maybe I'm doing more of the same here.
All that said, Isn't the whole point here for players to add life to these games? I see all of these posts about making your own story", "no need for stories on quests", "Vo is worthless", etc... All in the name of "immersion through palyers". Yet all of the former additions are in the name of "giving life to the world you're in", if they're not important why is how many steps an NPC takes?
You could ask the opposite as well toward the other side, if VO is important why isn't the world implementation?
note: I'm rather impartial to this issue, VO gives TOR points. World aspects (in all mmos) take some away.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
BUT if done right it add so much to a game. For me it's not the gameplay its the story and this game is mostly about its story and how better immerse your customer in your story then have a "real" feeling world. For me the type of gamer who would not care about atmospheric effects or anything I have been talking about is the same who play this game and hit the space bar through all the story segments. If you are just here for the pvp and the flashpoints and don't care about anything else then yes i can see how nothing I have brought up would matter(and thats fine its how you wish to play the game). But people who like rpg's for the story and like to be part of the world I really don't understand how a lot of whats been left out of this game in this respect doesn't bother you.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/339443/Video-FollowUp-Guide-For-Enhancing-Graphics-and-Performance-in-SWTORSorry-still-Nvidia-Only.html
Immersion huh? Would you agree that certain things are more difficult to do in the rain than fair weather?
Would you agree that it is harder to see naturally at night than it is during the day?
Trudging through the snow would be somewhat more exhausting than walking on a paved road, would it not?
These are the things I was referring to, and all of these are factors that could and should affect gameplay. Truthfully if weather and day cycles DID exist and did not do something remotely close to it's real world counterpart it would be immersion breaking for me..
It would be like playing a driving game where it rained yet the tires and car handled the same as if it were sunny and dry conditions.. What would be the point?
Swtor def has a very clunky system of npc placement/sprawl. the ai in open world is pretty pathetic for a current gen AAA mmo.
Towns and hubs also feel very dead and pointless. the gimmick of the space station hub dynamic was an idiotic choice. they all felt very dead. buildings feel like dead. large pointless hallways with pointless locked rooms. or empty chambers or one random npc milling about.
the OP has some valid points.
but to counter the OP the vid clip he showed was of an instance dungeon. in swtor the flashpoints few much more alive the story, the pacing, the music/sound, stuff exploding, npcs running off. etc etc etc. it's an entirely different thing. much like in age of conan. the towns were your typic crap standing around. doing absolutely nothing all day long. nothing changes in AoC either.
i think dynamic content is coming. i think GW2 will try some of this ...and it'll be interesting to see.
but swtor clearly didn't go for this. they're leaning very heavily on the story elements your encounter by doing class quests/general questing. and the "star wars" sights and sounds.
almost everything else is fairly half assed.
I would be immensly happy if they added effects like this and they did effect gameplay it would even more than just having them. But MMOs seem to find just the first step a little much let alone having the enviornment effect the way you play. But same can be said for most games even single player. Take skyrim for example. Aside from making it harder to see the snow storm doesn't seem to slow my movement speed or how fast I swing my sword. Either way for me I'd personally rather have these effects and not have them effect gameplay than not have them at all. Would I like them to do all that you describe? hell yes but think thats going to be a long time coming especially for this genre.
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/339443/Video-FollowUp-Guide-For-Enhancing-Graphics-and-Performance-in-SWTORSorry-still-Nvidia-Only.html