With our brand new column here at MMORPG.com, we are reaching out to those of you who are sick and tired of the traditional high fantasy MMO. Judging by a recent study, that means we're talking to a lot of you. Check out "No Elves Allowed" to find out what exactly we're talking about here. Leave us a few of your own thoughts in the comments.
Been there. Done that. Bought the Blood Elf. Can we move on? I can see some of you surreptitiously picking up those pitchforks but I'm going to say it anyway: the genre is over saturated with gnomes. You cannot turn two steps without bumping into a scantily-dressed elf. Throw a stone and chances are you'll nail a passing princess. To abuse a time-worn trope, your personal mileage may vary on the subject matter but personally, I've had enough of fantasy. We have the technology. Let's use it.
Why beat on the traditional fantasy races when it hasn't even been done correctly yet? WHAT mmorpg has in depth fantasy races, you know, where you level a race independently of the entire world in your mmorpg and get a full in depth experience of your YOUR culture? By the end you truly see yourself (character-wise) as the race you chose, and when you do face an enemy, it's not some instanced nonsense, it's a persistant living breathing environment.
Knock the fantasy races of tradition all you want, but don't tell me Michael Jackson dancing night elves in WoW made you think this is it. That's like saying to hell with hamburgers because McDonald's has just overdone it. Seriously wake up. Look at the movie industry: There is Star Trek, Star Wars, and The Lord of the Rings. That's it. What other epic trilogy or better exists? Thus far, sci9-fi has fantasy beat 2 to 1.
I say, the day a developers wakes up a dozen or so investors and creates an mmorpg that is a mix of Total War, Elder Scrolls/Skyrim, and Dark Age of Camelot, is the day everyone will be saying: gosh golly, I didn't know it could be like this.
Point is, just because the mmorpg genre has a terrible lack of fantasy sense, doesn't mean the High Fantasy Genre has been overdone.
Its not elves I hate its every race looking human. Human with pointy ears = elf and we can claim we have two races now, Human with blue skin = generic race we just made up, Human with rocky skin texture = boulder kin, Humans who have glowing eyes, are demonkin, etc. You have to practically beg to play a Dwarf these days, I mean the Star Wars mmo doesn't even have Wookies, or any other interesting race for that matter, Human, red human, human with cloth over face, human with skin texture. blah.
Its not elves I hate its every race looking human. Human with pointy ears = elf and we can claim we have two races now, Human with blue skin = generic race we just made up, Human with rocky skin texture = boulder kin, Humans who have glowing eyes, are demonkin, etc. You have to practically beg to play a Dwarf these days, I mean the Star Wars mmo doesn't even have Wookies, or any other interesting race for that matter, Human, red human, human with cloth over face, human with skin texture. blah.
Agreed, the devs could have a little more imagination.
I wish there were some alien option in MMOs were you could mix a load of parts together to make something weird looking and unisque.
At least ANET got it and revamped the Sylvari, now it actually looks alien enough to not be another elf.
Its not elves I hate its every race looking human. Human with pointy ears = elf and we can claim we have two races now, Human with blue skin = generic race we just made up, Human with rocky skin texture = boulder kin, Humans who have glowing eyes, are demonkin, etc. You have to practically beg to play a Dwarf these days, I mean the Star Wars mmo doesn't even have Wookies, or any other interesting race for that matter, Human, red human, human with cloth over face, human with skin texture. blah.
Agreed, the devs could have a little more imagination.
I wish there were some alien option in MMOs were you could mix a load of parts together to make something weird looking and unisque.
At least ANET got it and revamped the Sylvari, now it actually looks alien enough to not be another elf.
Oh yes, Sylvari are much different from classic elves--they have leaves Nah, it is not about elves it is about fantasy mmo. We have 1000 of them and some people cant see and hear anymore same old dragon story
i find the dark elves of Rift get it (not sold on the lateral ears, but otherwise...) and the elves of skyrim nail it. many people dont realize where elves come from culturally. they were essentially the alien/vampires of the celtic world. powerful, caprecious, disturbing though strangely beautiful. the vanilla elves that have dominated American fantasy are nothing but a "Safe" option for idealized alternative.
i am bored to tears by the usual presentation of elves (and orcs for that matter) but i was immensely suprised and pleased by the design choices of skyrim for both. i hope the success of the game heralds a new age, and opens new doors for people who previously have only seen the two as sterilized cartoons.
Actually you are confusing Elves with Sidhes and fearies.
Elves: Demi gods from Norse mytholgy. Tolkien was an expert on the subject. Most elves are from either Nifelheim (the dusk or evning elves) or Alfheim (the light or morning elves).
Sidhes: Irish powerful and often nasty beings that lives in a dimension close to our own.
Fearies: weird otherwordly beings common around the world.
It is a coomon mistake. Tolkien based his work on Norse mythology (Gandalf is based on Odin) while the other classic fantasy author Howard based his on Irirsh mythology (Conan is actually a legendary Celtic hero said to have killed Balor of the evil eye, the leader of the Fomori)...
i respect your opinion, but i am not mistaken here there was quite a bit of crossover amongst those cultures, and i believe the elf meme is essentially what i describe, at least originally. elves may have taken on a revisionist quality in the renaissance or even the victorian age, but the the Alfar were certainly dark terrors of the celtic word, or whatever word you want to apply. Sidhe, fearies, all were essentially what we mean when we say elf. subtle differences are irrelevant to a largely illiterate people.
whatever our opinions, i think we can agree that the namby pamby vulcans that saturate most fantasy franchises are a far cry from the from the magical powerhouses of olde.
i respect your opinion, but i am not mistaken here there was quite a bit of crossover amongst those cultures, and i believe the elf meme is essentially what i describe, at least originally. elves may have taken on a revisionist quality in the renaissance or even the victorian age, but the the Alfar were certainly dark terrors of the celtic word, or whatever word you want to apply. Sidhe, fearies, all were essentially what we mean when we say elf. subtle differences are irrelevant to a largely illiterate people.
whatever our opinions, i think we can agree that the namby pamby vulcans that saturate most fantasy franchises are a far cry from the from the magical powerhouses of olde.
Tolkien himself said he used Norse mythology as his inspiration for the elves. He was an expert on Norse languages and mythology.
Sidhes on the other hand comes from really old Irirsh myths like the Tuatha de Daanan, and they are frankly closer to the Norse Disirs than the elves.
Did you BTW know that the reason that the vikings had dragons in the front of their ships were to scare away hostile disir? It was a big insult to leave the dragon up while you sailed into a friendly harbor.
And yes, we can agree about that. I don't mind the Tolkien elves but the watered down D&D elves totally blows.
Elves as little demonic faeries with grisly appearances that rip out peoples' hearts? Awesome! Elves that couldn't bench press the weight of their own clothing? Horrid. Personally, I'm sick to death of most fantasy race portrayals.
What kills me is that people use these templates as "instant character development." "What do you mean, do I like stonework and tunnels? Of course not! I am an elf!" It's crap. Games need to get off Tolkien's coat tails and start creating their own worlds. I am looking at the Rift IP, the Warhammer IP, and Warcraft 1-WOW. Shadowrun is marginally better than most, but a lot of the classic cliche's still apply.
Ironically, the first sword-and-sorcery fantasy stories didn't even feature these other races. To further add to the irony, Tolkien's accepted ideas were the inverse of accepted imagery for each race.
To revitalize fantasy, we need a game that hearkens each creature back to it's medieval superstitions and drops the accepted norms for each race. To be done well, it needs to mix ideas people haven't thought of. Palladium's version of Rift comes to mind, though it arguably strays away from fantasy.
IMO, that's exactly what this genre needs to do... arguably stray away from fantasy.
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If someone is talking in general chat in a language you dont understand, chances are they're not talking to you. So chill out and stop bitching about it!
The problem with the manifesto is MMO's want to attract women players, and women love playing an Elf. So I don't see marketing thinking this will be a revenue winner any time soon.
I was amused the OP failed to notice this. Perhaps she thinks the girls want to play the race of ‘vertically-challenged people with excessive body hair’…hmm nope I think they want to be tall, body hair free and astheticaly pleasing.
Likewise removing the big (or short) ‘tough’ race is not going to sell to guys, so what do we play, boring humans?
The problem with the manifesto is MMO's want to attract women players, and women love playing an Elf. So I don't see marketing thinking this will be a revenue winner any time soon.
I was amused the OP failed to notice this. Perhaps she thinks the girls want to play the race of ‘vertically-challenged people with excessive body hair’…hmm nope I think they want to be tall, body hair free and astheticaly pleasing.
Likewise removing the big (or short) ‘tough’ race is not going to sell to guys, so what do we play, boring humans?
That many ladies want to play a "princess" I can buy (I blame Barbie), but the exact same watered down race from D&D in every game? I think not.
Make the human ladies look good enough, or have nice looking tiefling and aasimar or something else not quite so stereotypical and I doubt many would complain.
I however still kinda like one type of elf, the drow. Evil spider loving dark elves with whips and bad attitude are still somewhat sterotypical but not as bad as the pointy eared hippies that we usually see in MMOs.
Elves are just one aspect of the usual MMO problem: No imagination from the devs. Most MMOs are just a reskinned version of older MMOs, usually a bit easier.
Salvatore did a pretty cool elven culture and aesthetic in his Corona novels. I do like the drow culture in the Forgotten Realms as well, despite the fact that I wanna gag some of the writers for WotC. However, even in Forgotten Realms, the elves have fallen into the stereotype that I have come to be annoyed by. It's typically an elven queen, leading her people to some sacred land, untouched by human expansion, and with some aloof attitude and disdain for the dwarven race as a whole., viewing the humans as poor little children lost in the great big world, or also despised for expanding into the forests.
They may be fierce warriors, but in battle should a few of them fall...oh dear gods a terrible tragedy has befallen the elven nation...we lost fifty soldiers in the great war of (enter some random fantasy setting here), even though the humans lost thousands, and dwarves lost hundreds, we elves are the ones who suffer...
It's gotten old. As has the fantasy setting in general (to me). I love fantasy don't get me wrong, I remember reading The Hobbit in the fifth grade (had to look up some words in the dictionary [that's a book that has words and their meanings in alphabetical order for you younger types :P]) but I enjoyed the hell out of it, and the fellowship trilogy and the Silmarillion (took a bit admittedly). I went on to delve myself into fantasy settings and novels of all sorts and kinds. I loved playing zelda, final fantasy II (or IV depending on how yer counting), best one of the series, and multitudes of others. Yes I did play some sci-fi games out there, but for the most part, if you wanted to play a rpg, you basically had to play in a fantasy setting.
In the MMO's that I have tried and played (only a few I admit), the settings have mostly been in fantasy. I've played wow since launch damn near (flame me later), that's seven years (a few breaks here and there), of fantasy. Time to switch it up.
I want to see the Shadowrun elves (yes I know some little dev company is making a browser game...but I would love to see one done...dare I say right [topic for another thread]) I would love to see a Rifts MMO (based on the Palladium[sp?] tabletop rpg), and I am looking forward to Tor (you may call it wow with lightsabers, I call it a fresh new start). As many have said, it's not fantasy (and the elves therein), that we have grown tired of...it's the same old fantasy that has grown stale.
If we didn't have elves, who would occupy the tabletops in taverns?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Salvatore did a pretty cool elven culture and aesthetic in his Corona novels. I do like the drow culture in the Forgotten Realms as well, despite the fact that I wanna gag some of the writers for WotC. However, even in Forgotten Realms, the elves have fallen into the stereotype that I have come to be annoyed by. It's typically an elven queen, leading her people to some sacred land, untouched by human expansion, and with some aloof attitude and disdain for the dwarven race as a whole., viewing the humans as poor little children lost in the great big world, or also despised for expanding into the forests.
They may be fierce warriors, but in battle should a few of them fall...oh dear gods a terrible tragedy has befallen the elven nation...we lost fifty soldiers in the great war of (enter some random fantasy setting here), even though the humans lost thousands, and dwarves lost hundreds, we elves are the ones who suffer...
It's gotten old. As has the fantasy setting in general (to me). I love fantasy don't get me wrong, I remember reading The Hobbit in the fifth grade (had to look up some words in the dictionary [that's a book that has words and their meanings in alphabetical order for you younger types :P]) but I enjoyed the hell out of it, and the fellowship trilogy and the Silmarillion (took a bit admittedly). I went on to delve myself into fantasy settings and novels of all sorts and kinds. I loved playing zelda, final fantasy II (or IV depending on how yer counting), best one of the series, and multitudes of others. Yes I did play some sci-fi games out there, but for the most part, if you wanted to play a rpg, you basically had to play in a fantasy setting.
In the MMO's that I have tried and played (only a few I admit), the settings have mostly been in fantasy. I've played wow since launch damn near (flame me later), that's seven years (a few breaks here and there), of fantasy. Time to switch it up.
I want to see the Shadowrun elves (yes I know some little dev company is making a browser game...but I would love to see one done...dare I say right [topic for another thread]) I would love to see a Rifts MMO (based on the Palladium[sp?] tabletop rpg), and I am looking forward to Tor (you may call it wow with lightsabers, I call it a fresh new start). As many have said, it's not fantasy (and the elves therein), that we have grown tired of...it's the same old fantasy that has grown stale.
Even if the Forgotten realms? Dude, it was first Dragonlance and then FR that turned elves into the stereotypes they are today.
Almost every single MMOs world is a bad copy of FR, without the really good stuff that FR had (before the 4,0 edition that is).
Salvatore did a pretty cool elven culture and aesthetic in his Corona novels. I do like the drow culture in the Forgotten Realms as well, despite the fact that I wanna gag some of the writers for WotC. However, even in Forgotten Realms, the elves have fallen into the stereotype that I have come to be annoyed by. It's typically an elven queen, leading her people to some sacred land, untouched by human expansion, and with some aloof attitude and disdain for the dwarven race as a whole., viewing the humans as poor little children lost in the great big world, or also despised for expanding into the forests.
They may be fierce warriors, but in battle should a few of them fall...oh dear gods a terrible tragedy has befallen the elven nation...we lost fifty soldiers in the great war of (enter some random fantasy setting here), even though the humans lost thousands, and dwarves lost hundreds, we elves are the ones who suffer...
It's gotten old. As has the fantasy setting in general (to me). I love fantasy don't get me wrong, I remember reading The Hobbit in the fifth grade (had to look up some words in the dictionary [that's a book that has words and their meanings in alphabetical order for you younger types :P]) but I enjoyed the hell out of it, and the fellowship trilogy and the Silmarillion (took a bit admittedly). I went on to delve myself into fantasy settings and novels of all sorts and kinds. I loved playing zelda, final fantasy II (or IV depending on how yer counting), best one of the series, and multitudes of others. Yes I did play some sci-fi games out there, but for the most part, if you wanted to play a rpg, you basically had to play in a fantasy setting.
In the MMO's that I have tried and played (only a few I admit), the settings have mostly been in fantasy. I've played wow since launch damn near (flame me later), that's seven years (a few breaks here and there), of fantasy. Time to switch it up.
I want to see the Shadowrun elves (yes I know some little dev company is making a browser game...but I would love to see one done...dare I say right [topic for another thread]) I would love to see a Rifts MMO (based on the Palladium[sp?] tabletop rpg), and I am looking forward to Tor (you may call it wow with lightsabers, I call it a fresh new start). As many have said, it's not fantasy (and the elves therein), that we have grown tired of...it's the same old fantasy that has grown stale.
Even if the Forgotten realms? Dude, it was first Dragonlance and then FR that turned elves into the stereotypes they are today.
Almost every single MMOs world is a bad copy of FR, without the really good stuff that FR had (before the 4,0 edition that is).
You're forgetting Greyhawk my friend, the first "setting" for DnD.
Edit: I will agree however, that many seem to take from what FR has built, but one could even make the connection that FR took from Tolkien in many of it's storylines and world events and stereotypes.
I hate fantasy. Of all the genres, fantasy is the one that involves the least actual imagination. That and vampire fiction. Yes, there are exceptions but they are few and far between and none of those exceptions will ever make it into the MMO world because it would be too weird for most players. And Fantasy should be too weird.
There are things that most that have posted here have forgotton is, dark, brooding, hateful elves(for those that support but dont want the "traditional" elf) dont really fit into coop gameplay. You want your elves filled with hate and minds of death and destruction, sitting somewhere spending what part of their days not filled with endless killing, thinking about killing more. How exactly do you justify them for the "Hey, lets go clear the dungeon of evil" gameplay. Sure you can make them work to kill off "the good guys" but that gets into factional warfare that I think has been lost since the days of factions dungeon camping for kills in UO.
Sure elves dont have to always be pretty boys, but they serve a purpose. They serve as the "good guy" with bonus to magic and bow use. The elf is the one that stands in the back of the party sending magical death forward or raining down a hail of arrows on the "bad guy" paying way to much attention to the guy with the sheild.
Personally I dont think Cassandra or the other elf "haters" truely hate elves. I think you all hate that you have yet to come up with a version of them that has stood the test of time. I think your pissed because your ideas for elves or elven like races have fell off to the wayside.
Wheres the orc/orcish hate? I am tired off all the ugly must kill everything orc! Why do they have to always be portrayed as ugly, mindless, bloodthirsty brutes? Ahh see no one carse because they serve their purpose. "Omg I hate those elves ohh so pretty, why do they always have to be tall good looking creatures? Tolkien 's elves saturate the fantasy mmo genre! How dare they!" Lets not forget that Tolkien's orc's used to be high elves "fallen from grace" isnt that what you elf haters wanted?
May the elf never die! May the traditional fantasy MMO never die! I love my bow, love my arrrows, I love standing back turning the enemy into a walking pin cushion(and mmos that actually show the arrows sticking out of the body).
All Murlocs must die horrible, painful, bloody deaths!
Originally posted by nyxxisThere are things that most that have posted here have forgotton is, dark, brooding, hateful elves(for those that support but dont want the "traditional" elf) dont really fit into coop gameplay. You want your elves filled with hate and minds of death and destruction, sitting somewhere spending what part of their days not filled with endless killing, thinking about killing more. How exactly do you justify them for the "Hey, lets go clear the dungeon of evil" gameplay. Sure you can make them work to kill off "the good guys" but that gets into factional warfare that I think has been lost since the days of factions dungeon camping for kills in UO.Sure elves dont have to always be pretty boys, but they serve a purpose. They serve as the "good guy" with bonus to magic and bow use. The elf is the one that stands in the back of the party sending magical death forward or raining down a hail of arrows on the "bad guy" paying way to much attention to the guy with the sheild.Personally I dont think Cassandra or the other elf "haters" truely hate elves. I think you all hate that you have yet to come up with a version of them that has stood the test of time. I think your pissed because your ideas for elves or elven like races have fell off to the wayside. Wheres the orc/orcish hate? I am tired off all the ugly must kill everything orc! Why do they have to always be portrayed as ugly, mindless, bloodthirsty brutes? Ahh see no one carse because they serve their purpose. "Omg I hate those elves ohh so pretty, why do they always have to be tall good looking creatures? Tolkien 's elves saturate the fantasy mmo genre! How dare they!" Lets not forget that Tolkien's orc's used to be high elves "fallen from grace" isnt that what you elf haters wanted? May the elf never die! May the traditional fantasy MMO never die! I love my bow, love my arrrows, I love standing back turning the enemy into a walking pin cushion(and mmos that actually show the arrows sticking out of the body).
Orcs in general haven't seen the "spotlight" in as many stories and rpgs as the elves have. Warcraft, and Elder Scrolls are the first two games I can think of that had orc characters that even had a portion of game time spotlight (I am sure there are more). For the most part orcs have been the "go-to" bad guy of many a fantasy tale and game. Hell think about your low level pnp experiences, many of your first enemies were orc, or orc-kin. I would love to see more stories about orcs defying the stereotype (Thrall has become bland, and the only other ones I can think of come from Shadowrun novels).
I think the only reason that the "Tolkien" type of elf (I use quotes cause there were a few, less than savory elves that were not orcs), has remained prevalent, is because the frame work of said elves has been reused, over and over again. I don't need murderous blood rage filled elves whose only thoughts are mass genocide, but how about elves that aren't (once again) daisy eatin, tree huggin, leaf wearin, sparkly skinned pansies, who seem to be written more emo like than the typical 17 year old Twilight fan.
How bout some grit, some grime, some anti-heroism. Ever wonder why Batman, John McClane, Dirty Harry, Riddick and Wolverine (just to name a few), are extremely popular characters? They personify the anti-hero, they are still at the core good characters, but they are willing to go outside the norm to get the job done. They are not pretty, dainty do gooders that whimper at the scuffing of their boots. The only elf I can think of at the moment who was like that was Lucipher from Poison Elves.
Edit: Wow, the editor seriously mucked up that quote!
Comments
Yoda is technically an elf. Hahaha.
No, he is a muppet. Big difference.
Why beat on the traditional fantasy races when it hasn't even been done correctly yet? WHAT mmorpg has in depth fantasy races, you know, where you level a race independently of the entire world in your mmorpg and get a full in depth experience of your YOUR culture? By the end you truly see yourself (character-wise) as the race you chose, and when you do face an enemy, it's not some instanced nonsense, it's a persistant living breathing environment.
Knock the fantasy races of tradition all you want, but don't tell me Michael Jackson dancing night elves in WoW made you think this is it. That's like saying to hell with hamburgers because McDonald's has just overdone it. Seriously wake up. Look at the movie industry: There is Star Trek, Star Wars, and The Lord of the Rings. That's it. What other epic trilogy or better exists? Thus far, sci9-fi has fantasy beat 2 to 1.
I say, the day a developers wakes up a dozen or so investors and creates an mmorpg that is a mix of Total War, Elder Scrolls/Skyrim, and Dark Age of Camelot, is the day everyone will be saying: gosh golly, I didn't know it could be like this.
Point is, just because the mmorpg genre has a terrible lack of fantasy sense, doesn't mean the High Fantasy Genre has been overdone.
IT HAS YET TO BE CREATED!
/Just my 2 cents.
Its not elves I hate its every race looking human. Human with pointy ears = elf and we can claim we have two races now, Human with blue skin = generic race we just made up, Human with rocky skin texture = boulder kin, Humans who have glowing eyes, are demonkin, etc. You have to practically beg to play a Dwarf these days, I mean the Star Wars mmo doesn't even have Wookies, or any other interesting race for that matter, Human, red human, human with cloth over face, human with skin texture. blah.
Agreed, the devs could have a little more imagination.
I wish there were some alien option in MMOs were you could mix a load of parts together to make something weird looking and unisque.
At least ANET got it and revamped the Sylvari, now it actually looks alien enough to not be another elf.
Oh yes, Sylvari are much different from classic elves--they have leaves
Nah, it is not about elves it is about fantasy mmo. We have 1000 of them and some people cant see and hear anymore same old dragon story
i respect your opinion, but i am not mistaken here
there was quite a bit of crossover amongst those cultures, and i believe the elf meme is essentially what i describe, at least originally. elves may have taken on a revisionist quality in the renaissance or even the victorian age, but the the Alfar were certainly dark terrors of the celtic word, or whatever word you want to apply. Sidhe, fearies, all were essentially what we mean when we say elf. subtle differences are irrelevant to a largely illiterate people.
whatever our opinions, i think we can agree that the namby pamby vulcans that saturate most fantasy franchises are a far cry from the from the magical powerhouses of olde.
Tolkien himself said he used Norse mythology as his inspiration for the elves. He was an expert on Norse languages and mythology.
Sidhes on the other hand comes from really old Irirsh myths like the Tuatha de Daanan, and they are frankly closer to the Norse Disirs than the elves.
Did you BTW know that the reason that the vikings had dragons in the front of their ships were to scare away hostile disir? It was a big insult to leave the dragon up while you sailed into a friendly harbor.
And yes, we can agree about that. I don't mind the Tolkien elves but the watered down D&D elves totally blows.
Elves as little demonic faeries with grisly appearances that rip out peoples' hearts? Awesome! Elves that couldn't bench press the weight of their own clothing? Horrid. Personally, I'm sick to death of most fantasy race portrayals.
What kills me is that people use these templates as "instant character development." "What do you mean, do I like stonework and tunnels? Of course not! I am an elf!" It's crap. Games need to get off Tolkien's coat tails and start creating their own worlds. I am looking at the Rift IP, the Warhammer IP, and Warcraft 1-WOW. Shadowrun is marginally better than most, but a lot of the classic cliche's still apply.
Ironically, the first sword-and-sorcery fantasy stories didn't even feature these other races. To further add to the irony, Tolkien's accepted ideas were the inverse of accepted imagery for each race.
To revitalize fantasy, we need a game that hearkens each creature back to it's medieval superstitions and drops the accepted norms for each race. To be done well, it needs to mix ideas people haven't thought of. Palladium's version of Rift comes to mind, though it arguably strays away from fantasy.
IMO, that's exactly what this genre needs to do... arguably stray away from fantasy.
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Why all the hate about high fantasy mmos?
We dont even have ONE single high fantasy mmo out that is is worth it to play right now...
Still waiting for EQ3! :-)
I am human in real life.. I do not mind being an elf in a MMORPG.
I disagree with this article and love high fantasy MMORPGS. What I miss in the MMORPGs is the sandbox concept in a quality game.
SWG pre CU in a high fantasy setting had been perfect!
Feckin Elves!! coming over here!! taking our jobs!! stealing our women!!
If someone is talking in general chat in a language you dont understand, chances are they're not talking to you. So chill out and stop bitching about it!
The problem with the manifesto is MMO's want to attract women players, and women love playing an Elf. So I don't see marketing thinking this will be a revenue winner any time soon.
I was amused the OP failed to notice this. Perhaps she thinks the girls want to play the race of ‘vertically-challenged people with excessive body hair’…hmm nope I think they want to be tall, body hair free and astheticaly pleasing.
Likewise removing the big (or short) ‘tough’ race is not going to sell to guys, so what do we play, boring humans?
That many ladies want to play a "princess" I can buy (I blame Barbie), but the exact same watered down race from D&D in every game? I think not.
Make the human ladies look good enough, or have nice looking tiefling and aasimar or something else not quite so stereotypical and I doubt many would complain.
I however still kinda like one type of elf, the drow. Evil spider loving dark elves with whips and bad attitude are still somewhat sterotypical but not as bad as the pointy eared hippies that we usually see in MMOs.
Elves are just one aspect of the usual MMO problem: No imagination from the devs. Most MMOs are just a reskinned version of older MMOs, usually a bit easier.
Salvatore did a pretty cool elven culture and aesthetic in his Corona novels. I do like the drow culture in the Forgotten Realms as well, despite the fact that I wanna gag some of the writers for WotC. However, even in Forgotten Realms, the elves have fallen into the stereotype that I have come to be annoyed by. It's typically an elven queen, leading her people to some sacred land, untouched by human expansion, and with some aloof attitude and disdain for the dwarven race as a whole., viewing the humans as poor little children lost in the great big world, or also despised for expanding into the forests.
They may be fierce warriors, but in battle should a few of them fall...oh dear gods a terrible tragedy has befallen the elven nation...we lost fifty soldiers in the great war of (enter some random fantasy setting here), even though the humans lost thousands, and dwarves lost hundreds, we elves are the ones who suffer...
It's gotten old. As has the fantasy setting in general (to me). I love fantasy don't get me wrong, I remember reading The Hobbit in the fifth grade (had to look up some words in the dictionary [that's a book that has words and their meanings in alphabetical order for you younger types :P]) but I enjoyed the hell out of it, and the fellowship trilogy and the Silmarillion (took a bit admittedly). I went on to delve myself into fantasy settings and novels of all sorts and kinds. I loved playing zelda, final fantasy II (or IV depending on how yer counting), best one of the series, and multitudes of others. Yes I did play some sci-fi games out there, but for the most part, if you wanted to play a rpg, you basically had to play in a fantasy setting.
In the MMO's that I have tried and played (only a few I admit), the settings have mostly been in fantasy. I've played wow since launch damn near (flame me later), that's seven years (a few breaks here and there), of fantasy. Time to switch it up.
I want to see the Shadowrun elves (yes I know some little dev company is making a browser game...but I would love to see one done...dare I say right [topic for another thread]) I would love to see a Rifts MMO (based on the Palladium[sp?] tabletop rpg), and I am looking forward to Tor (you may call it wow with lightsabers, I call it a fresh new start). As many have said, it's not fantasy (and the elves therein), that we have grown tired of...it's the same old fantasy that has grown stale.
thank you sir, finally someone who understands me !
If we didn't have elves, who would occupy the tabletops in taverns?
Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.
Windlings
and +10 internets if you can name that pnp rpg without going to some wiki.
Even if the Forgotten realms? Dude, it was first Dragonlance and then FR that turned elves into the stereotypes they are today.
Almost every single MMOs world is a bad copy of FR, without the really good stuff that FR had (before the 4,0 edition that is).
You're forgetting Greyhawk my friend, the first "setting" for DnD.
Edit: I will agree however, that many seem to take from what FR has built, but one could even make the connection that FR took from Tolkien in many of it's storylines and world events and stereotypes.
Edit2: sepellgin
I don't mind elfs as long as i get to kill them very fast so i don't see them in the area i am farming
I hate fantasy. Of all the genres, fantasy is the one that involves the least actual imagination. That and vampire fiction. Yes, there are exceptions but they are few and far between and none of those exceptions will ever make it into the MMO world because it would be too weird for most players. And Fantasy should be too weird.
IMO
There are things that most that have posted here have forgotton is, dark, brooding, hateful elves(for those that support but dont want the "traditional" elf) dont really fit into coop gameplay. You want your elves filled with hate and minds of death and destruction, sitting somewhere spending what part of their days not filled with endless killing, thinking about killing more. How exactly do you justify them for the "Hey, lets go clear the dungeon of evil" gameplay. Sure you can make them work to kill off "the good guys" but that gets into factional warfare that I think has been lost since the days of factions dungeon camping for kills in UO.
Sure elves dont have to always be pretty boys, but they serve a purpose. They serve as the "good guy" with bonus to magic and bow use. The elf is the one that stands in the back of the party sending magical death forward or raining down a hail of arrows on the "bad guy" paying way to much attention to the guy with the sheild.
Personally I dont think Cassandra or the other elf "haters" truely hate elves. I think you all hate that you have yet to come up with a version of them that has stood the test of time. I think your pissed because your ideas for elves or elven like races have fell off to the wayside.
Wheres the orc/orcish hate? I am tired off all the ugly must kill everything orc! Why do they have to always be portrayed as ugly, mindless, bloodthirsty brutes? Ahh see no one carse because they serve their purpose. "Omg I hate those elves ohh so pretty, why do they always have to be tall good looking creatures? Tolkien 's elves saturate the fantasy mmo genre! How dare they!" Lets not forget that Tolkien's orc's used to be high elves "fallen from grace" isnt that what you elf haters wanted?
May the elf never die! May the traditional fantasy MMO never die! I love my bow, love my arrrows, I love standing back turning the enemy into a walking pin cushion(and mmos that actually show the arrows sticking out of the body).
All Murlocs must die horrible, painful, bloody deaths!
Orcs in general haven't seen the "spotlight" in as many stories and rpgs as the elves have. Warcraft, and Elder Scrolls are the first two games I can think of that had orc characters that even had a portion of game time spotlight (I am sure there are more). For the most part orcs have been the "go-to" bad guy of many a fantasy tale and game. Hell think about your low level pnp experiences, many of your first enemies were orc, or orc-kin. I would love to see more stories about orcs defying the stereotype (Thrall has become bland, and the only other ones I can think of come from Shadowrun novels).
I think the only reason that the "Tolkien" type of elf (I use quotes cause there were a few, less than savory elves that were not orcs), has remained prevalent, is because the frame work of said elves has been reused, over and over again. I don't need murderous blood rage filled elves whose only thoughts are mass genocide, but how about elves that aren't (once again) daisy eatin, tree huggin, leaf wearin, sparkly skinned pansies, who seem to be written more emo like than the typical 17 year old Twilight fan.
How bout some grit, some grime, some anti-heroism. Ever wonder why Batman, John McClane, Dirty Harry, Riddick and Wolverine (just to name a few), are extremely popular characters? They personify the anti-hero, they are still at the core good characters, but they are willing to go outside the norm to get the job done. They are not pretty, dainty do gooders that whimper at the scuffing of their boots. The only elf I can think of at the moment who was like that was Lucipher from Poison Elves.
Edit: Wow, the editor seriously mucked up that quote!