TOR story and gameplay mechanics do not mix

Chuckanar · December 2011

Thanks for your opinion. I dont agree. See you at launch.

Comaf · December 2011

Originally posted by farmerfred
A little about myself. I was one of the lucky ones to have been invited to the closed beta. I was apart of many builds and my opinion of the game comes from first hand experience. I've had many characters wiped because of new builds, so I've played the game a few times from level 1.

The feel of war is broken because of the mob "tagging" system

So you start up the game and you're introduced to this beautiful and exciting cinematic. The Empire has attacked a Republic station! Excitement errupts as smuggler, trooper, and jedi alike race into action to fight off the waves of enemy troopers and droids. Then comes the jedis duel. Master and apprentice versus master and apprentice. You're drawn in, this is exciting! There is action everywhere, everyone working together to fight the oppossing faction. I'm immediately drawn into this game!

So I make my trooper totally excited that I'm going to be joining this galactic war. I choose Republic and I get another epic, exciting, emotionally invested, battle (not going to go into this video). Again, I'm tottally psyched. I'm ready to join. Get me in there coach!

My trooper is made, and my story starts on a drop ship, about to kick some seperatists butt! At this point my mentality is a feeling of us versus the empire or anyone who helps the empire. I pick up my first missions to go into a small town to kill mobs, deactivate jammers, disable missle launcher. On my way I see fellow troopers beside me and smugglers.

This is where gameplay mechanics and story don't blend. I don't know why bioware thought of keeping the old tagging system in their mmo when it does not mesh well with their story. Within five minutes my mentality changes from "us vs the empire" to "me vs everyone else". I'm no longer working with my fellow republic citizens, I'm trying to 'tag' that mob before he/she does so I can get the experience, rather than everyone working together to destroy the sepretists.

So, I no longer want to help someone because the mob is grey and I get nothing out of it. Same with the jammers. It's a race for me to get there before anyone else. If someone gets there 2 seconds before me, shouldn't I get experience as well? (I bet all you weekenders wish that happened with the imprisoned jedis you had to free) The jammer is down, objective complete....for him but not me. Bioware decided to stick with the old formula of having click-able items for quests respawn after awhile and only reward those who clicked the item and those in their group.

I have to train to become a better smuggler, whaaa?

Training got really tedious in later builds. Before I didn't have to train as often for the next rank of a skill. It feels like Bioware took a step backwards here. Many MMOs have had this feature where you purchase rank x of skill y when all it does is increase dmg, time, etc. It does not feel natural as say, a smuggler to have to go to a smuggler trainer to increase in skill with an ability he uses 10 times a fight. Shouldn't it increase naturally? Did Han go train his pistols every year? Training this way does not make sense in this universe.

Ok, it makes sense for some characters, like trooper, but I'd argue for new abilities only and not rank increases.

I'm sorry, I can't take that job...you're apart of the empire

This made me scratch my head. There are two mirrored jedi classes on both sides yet a smuggler can't be apart of the empire, or a bounty hunter apart of the republic? Why can't I be an Empire trooper? It makes no sense when you stop and think about it. It's probably a design decision. I bet their thinking went something like this, "The game can't have every class on BOTH sides, we need some variety to the two factions." And so you can't be a republic bounty hunter even though it logically makes sense.

A new coat of paint

To sum up, it feels like Bioware looked at what gameplay mechanics work in the current gen of MMOs and slapped a Star Wars story on top of it even though the mechanics do not blend with the story. When I'm getting a sense of me vs my fellow player while playing; while the story is telling me it's really us vs them, you get a feeling that something isn't working here. They should have looked at their story and made gameplay mechanics that worked with it, not against it.

And at what part of the years 2004-2011 did you go into a cave? I feel your pain, but this is the best a developer can do nowadays. Gone is the Everquest, Dark Age of Camelot, Asheron's Call 2, model of mmorpgs. It's all copy paste instance solo race to kill mob get gear drop take days off from work live at mom's house pwn noobs spam trade channels buy gold (credits?)...etc just to get the upper hand model of entertainment.

The good news is that in a number of years, an mmorpg will just be a giant butt on your monitor. That's it. But even then people will say it's too complicated - well, probably say "it 2hards."

RizelStar · December 2011

Originally posted by farmerfred

Originally posted by Iselin

Mob tagging: the alternative is very much worse and would be a huge step backwards to the MMOs of the late '90s. Was there, did that, cussed many people out for kill-stealing and was cussed right back The idea that we're all one big happy family on the same side just never works when the competitive juices start flowing...drive in rush hour traffic much?

Changing sides: I admit I also thought that this would be a cool thing to be able to do--especially for those who like to play Empire with light side choices or Republic with dark side. But definitely not a huge deal that I would waste space compalining about.

Retraining higher level versions of know skills. I'm with you there and agree that most MMOs are getting away from that tedium. And the opposite also bothers me: learning a brand new ability out in the middle of nowhere by spending a point in your spec tree. You should only have to go to the trainer to learn new skills and you should need to go there to learn ALL new skills. The other stuff should naturally scale with level.

Why is the alternative worse? I'm not saying don't use the tagging system so revert back to '90s mechanics. No. I'm saying build a mechanic that works with the story. The group areas on each planet could have been programmed differently. Instead of manually finding a group and forming it with the correct classes; you just go in to the group area and your contrubution to achieving that group goal is rewarded. You can heal if you're a healer and get points, dmg as a dps and get points, absorb damage as a tank and get points. Even have the content scale depending on how many people are there. With companions tanks can go in alone and have their companion healer out. If more people come, the content gets a little harder and you have to start focusing on working as a group even though you didn't manually make one. The system is set up to give you a reward based on how much you contributed.

(the above system also keeps the competitive edge; as you want to stay on top in points and be the best in the area)

Now doesn't the above sound more like the star wars story of the republic coming to work together without the hinderence of gameplay mechanics?

As for training, Bioware has stated that they want your character to a hero. Now, you can argue both ways that heros needs training. Batman for example had a lot of training. Or you can argue that heros don't need training; Spider-man makes shit up on the fly and calls it his own.

If you really want to think about it, my trooper really doesn't need training but experience. One of my skills as a trooper is using a sticky grenade. I'm pretty sure I can figure that out on my own, and get better at it with the more I use it. Same with the grenade launcher, I point and shoot. I'm not taking calculus here, I'm shooting a gun.

I agree this would help and balance out gameplay with the story.

Real talk it would ha ha. It showed even more when I played another game and was like "Damn, this really feels right, I mean I thought it was lame but it makes the story on par with the gameplay. I sure hope Star Wars could manage something like this."

Now they didn't for me but that doesn't mean the gameplaay is terrible and won't please others...

May the common sense be with you

farmerfred · December 2011

Originally posted by Iselin

Originally posted by farmerfred

Originally posted by Iselin

Mob tagging: the alternative is very much worse and would be a huge step backwards to the MMOs of the late '90s. Was there, did that, cussed many people out for kill-stealing and was cussed right back The idea that we're all one big happy family on the same side just never works when the competitive juices start flowing...drive in rush hour traffic much?

Changing sides: I admit I also thought that this would be a cool thing to be able to do--especially for those who like to play Empire with light side choices or Republic with dark side. But definitely not a huge deal that I would waste space compalining about.

Retraining higher level versions of know skills. I'm with you there and agree that most MMOs are getting away from that tedium. And the opposite also bothers me: learning a brand new ability out in the middle of nowhere by spending a point in your spec tree. You should only have to go to the trainer to learn new skills and you should need to go there to learn ALL new skills. The other stuff should naturally scale with level.

Why is the alternative worse? I'm not saying don't use the tagging system so revert back to '90s mechanics. No. I'm saying build a mechanic that works with the story. The group areas on each planet could have been programmed differently. Instead of manually finding a group and forming it with the correct classes; you just go in to the group area and your contrubution to achieving that group goal is rewarded. You can heal if you're a healer and get points, dmg as a dps and get points, absorb damage as a tank and get points. Even have the content scale depending on how many people are there. With companions tanks can go in alone and have their companion healer out. If more people come, the content gets a little harder and you have to start focusing on working as a group even though you didn't manually make one. The system is set up to give you a reward based on how much you contributed.

Yeah i liked Rift's rifts amd WAR's PQs too... they chose to do it the other way and not copy the WAR/Rift model...works for me

(the above system also keeps the competitive edge; as you want to stay on top in points and be the best in the area)

Now doesn't the above sound more like the star wars story of the republic coming to work together without the hinderence of gameplay mechanics?

As for training, Bioware has stated that they want your character to a hero. Now, you can argue both ways that heros needs training. Batman for example had a lot of training. Or you can argue that heros don't need training; Spider-man makes shit up on the fly and calls it his own.

If you really want to think about it, my trooper really doesn't need training but experience. One of my skills as a trooper is using a sticky grenade. I'm pretty sure I can figure that out on my own, and get better at it with the more I use it. Same with the grenade launcher, I point and shoot. I'm not taking calculus here, I'm shooting a gun.

WOW had that 6 years ago... god it was tedious releveling the weapon skills by using them especially if you had skill in 5 or 6 different types... and of course, the uber drop was always for the weapon skill you had neglected. That's really a sandbox concept and is how Skyrim does it as I'm sure you know. They chose to go the Themepark's traditional way of set classes with limited options and a trainer... I wasn't expecting otherwise since it's pretty obvious that sandboxers are a tiny minority if you compare subscription numbers for theme park and sandbox MMOs. Other than the two points I made above, it's fine.

If you don't like the GW2 theme fix for TOR I have a very simple and I think good idea to help with the feel of the game. I'll give this to you for free bioware. Ok, so we are all aware that most areas you are in have a bonus quest of kill mob x amount of times. We can agree that this encourages players to kill as many mobs on their way to their primary objective. But with the current tagging system the story and mechanics conflict.

Here's the simple fix. If any mob around you dies within eyeshot, you get exp for that kill, or maybe at least 25% heal to player, damage to npc, or damage taken from mob to get credit for that kill (as a way to discourage afkers). So helping with that mob will increase your bonus quest. It also feels like you're helping with that ongoing war everyone is talking about. You even worked with your fellow players. Sounds more engaging. Now the question is, is loot and experience shared as well? Everything else is up to debate. You can say he get's a % or if that mob is worth 500xp then everyone who particapated gets 500xp. Loot could be a random loot table for everyone so everyone gets something.

Now we have everyone working together against a common enemy. Sound more like the story.

On to your second paragraph. I totally agree with how tedious it was leveling up 1 handed axes and 1 handed swords. I'm a warrior, come on. I should be proficient in my weapons. But bioware does something similiar in having you train ranks in skills that should just increase automatically when you level, but that's my opinion on game mechanics.

But whenver I say, I don't agree with these mechanics it does not mean let's revert back to something else. I'd rather look at the story and come up with a mechanic that fits, not look in my tool box of mechanics and throw one in there that you think players will like or it fits some other mechanic like a money dump.

velebnicek · December 2011

Very good points farmerfred. And mature discussion.

SWTOR being a wow-clone linear themepark unfortunatelly means that "this is not the game we are looking for" I'm afraid.
At least not a game to play for more than 3 months I guess.

Angier2758 · December 2011

If you don't like the GW2 theme fix for TOR I have a very simple and I think good idea to help with the feel of the game. I'll give this to you for free bioware. Ok, so we are all aware that most areas you are in have a bonus quest of kill mob x amount of times. We can agree that this encourages players to kill as many mobs on their way to their primary objective. But with the current tagging system the story and mechanics conflict.

Here's the simple fix. If any mob around you dies within eyeshot, you get exp for that kill, or maybe at least 25% heal to player, damage to npc, or damage taken from mob to get credit for that kill (as a way to discourage afkers). So helping with that mob will increase your bonus quest. It also feels like you're helping with that ongoing war everyone is talking about. You even worked with your fellow players. Sounds more engaging. Now the question is, is loot and experience shared as well? Everything else is up to debate. You can say he get's a % or if that mob is worth 500xp then everyone who particapated gets 500xp. Loot could be a random loot table for everyone so everyone gets something.

Now we have everyone working together against a common enemy. Sound more like the story.

On to your second paragraph. I totally agree with how tedious it was leveling up 1 handed axes and 1 handed swords. I'm a warrior, come on. I should be proficient in my weapons. But bioware does something similiar in having you train ranks in skills that should just increase automatically when you level, but that's my opinion on game mechanics.

But whenver I say, I don't agree with these mechanics it does not mean let's revert back to something else. I'd rather look at the story and come up with a mechanic that fits, not look in my tool box of mechanics and throw one in there that you think players will like or it fits some other mechanic like a money dump.

I like your idea a lot. I wouldn't share or split xp just kills toward the objective... maybe even have a little message that congrats the group at working together.

Isane · December 2011

OP: I suggest you either play the developed game delivered by Bioware , or just do not bother at all. Stressing over your utopian view of how it should be has some credence but then again you don't own the IP or game development rights and the game is pretty much live. Nice cointribution after the event .

Where were you when they were designing the game !!!!!! Thats what i would ask ?

kalinis · December 2011

i dont think they conflict at all. I never killed an enemy to get my bonus quests complete taht wasnt in my way. I neve went out of my way to kill 10 of these or 35 of those i had to kill them to get to my story quests objedtives.

the bonus pop ups worked seamlessly with the story quests. So i dont realy understand where this not workign together comes from but oh well we all have our opinions.

farmerfred · December 2011

Originally posted by Isane
OP: I suggest you either play the developed game delivered by Bioware , or just do not bother at all. Stressing over your utopian view of how it should be has some credence but then again you don't own the IP or game development rights and the game is pretty much live. Nice cointribution after the event .

Where were you when they were designing the game !!!!!! Thats what i would ask ?

I was beta testing there game and giving this exact feedback. I'm going to skip over this game, that's for sure, but I still invested 3 years reading news articles about the game, and beta testing to help with what I thought were problems. So, yeah, I kind of already have invested interest in this game. So, I am suggesting things to help with the problem. Check TORs website, I have the same post in the suggestion forum there and general.

farmerfred · December 2011

Originally posted by kalinis
i dont think they conflict at all. I never killed an enemy to get my bonus quests complete taht wasnt in my way. I neve went out of my way to kill 10 of these or 35 of those i had to kill them to get to my story quests objedtives.

the bonus pop ups worked seamlessly with the story quests. So i dont realy understand where this not workign together comes from but oh well we all have our opinions.

Did you read my post? You're talking about something completely different.

Azaria · December 2011

Originally posted by Wharg0ul
Sorry OP, but it sounds like MMORPGs may not be your kind of game.

Actually it sounds like what everyone else who doesn't like the Beta is saying that even for a Themepark its a boring, broken mess, with design flaws, maybe this mmorpg isn't his type of game, but I am positive one of the two other major mmorpgs coming out this year will be.

farmerfred · January 2012

What's this?

Adamantine · January 2012

Sorry, but the OP makes no sense whatsoever to me. This is all well known game mechanics, as seen in many other games before. That the OP played the game since closed beta only makes it more weird he would complain about it.

MikeB · January 2012

Locked due to necro.

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