Looking back, I believe that the corporate asshats got greedy. They saw the explosion of subs WOW was generating and decided to DUMB down the swg concept. Thus creating the motives for the NGE.
It was ultimately Smedley choking on Lucas Arts shlong that caused the irreversible effects of the downfall.
SOE alienated the players and the rest is history.
Sorry, but even though a lot of people believe that, with all due respect: it is bullshit.
SWG was losing subs CONSIDERABLY. I was there in those days and I experienced as enitre guilds and cities died because people were moving to WOW in droves. SOE fought with the back against the wall. It wasn't greed, it was the sheer desperation, trying to survive. You can say the answer, the NGE was wrong, who is to say. A lot of people came to SWG after NGE, even tho it alienated many (but not all) old fans.
But just claiming SOE/Smedley was greedy or SOE is generally inable to do MMOs right is just bollocks.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
I liked SWG from start till even CU....no problems with that.
And if they added more content like the Corvette, or even post NGE like those Hoth BG and other dungeons that I never got to do as I left shortly after the NGE I would have kept playing for years to come.......
It was just the exodus of the server that made me quit.
in 1 month; my guild of 60+ original -and active- players went down to a whopping 6!, my server I was on at the time, Eclipse was a barren wasteland with the occasional 4-5 players in Theed.
Combined with the fact that I got amazing stories about WOW and the fact that it actually ran great with good Customer Service made me try it and stay there...
Empty servers, those made me quit.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
I was there at SWG release and i played all the way till game was changed form head to toe. SWG was actually losing susbscribers fast and no matter how much old school sandbox lovers want us to believe..nop..SWG didn't turn out the success LA was hoping it to be.
So NGE was the last ditch effort to try to get subscriptions back and try to reach broader player base. Who the hell in their right minds would destroy an already profitable game? seriously? so when people say 'hey SWG was doing great, had lots of subs and was a great success'..i usually think 'what a load of crap'.
How many servers SWTOR will launch with on release?
ShredderSE - Umm how many do they need? Maybe 6. US, EU, Asian, France, German and Russian. Subs will be so low there is no need for more Snoocky-How many servers? The first 3 months a lot...after that 2 i guess, one for PVE and 1 for PVP...
Thorbrand - SWTOR doesn't have longevity at all. Might be one of the shortest lived MMOs.
1. The game was never finished, this theme would run through the game's entire history.
2. LucasArts weren't happy that a Star Wars game was considered "niche."
3. LA/SOE chased the Holy Grail of MMORPG's, mass appeal.
4. Ignored the warning signs. When the CU was introduced the game a large proportion quit and the changes attracted few new subs and not nearly enough to bring population back to it preCU levels. Would another major game play change do the same?
5. Forced New Game Enhancements on the SWG community immediately after a major expansion! The biggest "DOH!" in MMO history. Nothing is going to infuriate a consumer more than this. It did and player cities turned to ghost town's literally over night..
6. If SWG wasn't near it's finished build at release, NGE was barely started. This soon prompted players to think along the lines of "Hang on, I'm paying monthly subs to beta test a game? WTF?"
7. SOE broke promises it couldn't keep. Clash detection in six months? Never happened. There were numerous others.
8. SOE spent an inordinate amount of effort trying to win back players that had left and again neglected and annoyed their current player base.
9. With the vast majority of community leaders leaving, player organised events dwindled. The new breed of SWG player needed to be spoonfed and lead by the nose as this is what they were used to in other games.
10. The jacked up game engine also fell apart when more than 20 ppl gathered. Mass PvP invariably became a slideshow.
11. It took the best part of 2 years before any new themepark content was introduced as SOE rebuilt the game. As this game was now supposed to be a themepark title, it had little themepark content to boast. Mustafar and Kashyyk soon became tired.
12. Lack of cohesion. Post NGE the game went through more lead dev's than you could wave a wiggly stick at. Each had they're own spin and took SWG in different directions. Post NGE population probably peaked when the Echo Base instance was introduced.
13. After Echo Base it became obviously apparent that there would be no new content of the same scale. Echo base had failed to attract the subs anticipated.
14. Players got wind of a new Star Wars MMO. SWTOR was shortly announced.
SWTOR might be the new WoW killer, the jury is still out. SWTOR is definitely the final nail in the SWG coffin.
I get the impression that Lucas Arts made sure to get involved in the game's direction early on this time around, because of what happened with SWG. They know changing the game post-release was a mistake, so they've pushed for Bioware to make a certain kind of game, from the very beginning, so that they wouldn't need to make any drastic changes later.
So, if you love TOR the way it is, I don't think you have to worry. You are the audience LA was hoping for, and this time, they're launching with you in mind.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
Kotor1 and kotor2 were fairly popular games both, Bioware and Lucarts are tapping on ready fanbase that for most parts stays true to the single player prequels.
SWG was doing fine, peaked at 300k subs when WoW released and took the world by force. After WoW made MMOs mainstream, new MMOs started pop out like mushrooms in the rain and SWG couldnt keep up with increasing competition and started losing subs. Therefore they thought they could buff up the subs by slicing themselves a piece of the wow cake...ending up with weird cut&paste work that didnt attract many new players and completely alienated the old ones.
For SWTOR to suffer SWGs fate, it would need to pull the rug from below KOTOR fans feet and change the way the game is played 100% middle of the game cycle.
SOE got their greedy hands on it. And they pushed launch WAY to early with tons of bugs and almost no content.
Bugs wasnt fixed
Content like the Alderaan story arc stopped
Jedi was introduced to the game.
To much profession fixes due to flavour of the month. Really... whats the point if all professions are completly balanced?
John Smedly
Julio Torres (LA)
Shit if they just spent all the money and time used on the CU and the NGE on fixing the game and adding content the freakin game would have done just fine.
Things they should have worked more on is thing like the Corellian corvette missions, the Genosian cave and such.....
Stupid SOE never realized what a gem they had in their posession..
Hauken Stormchaser I want pre-CU back Station.com : We got your game Yeah?, Well i want it back!!!
I don't know. I think putting the blame on LA the most is not correct. Don't get me wrong, but just look at SOE's track record since the demise of SWG. They surely haven't been the epitomy of gaming development, that's for sure.
I can understand back in that time, LA, scratching their head thinking, how in the world is SWG not the biggest and most popular game out. SW is the most popular IP in the world and the game is just blah and getting slaughtered by other games.
I can surely see a meeting or a very serious phone call between LA and SOE that must have happened. LA probably said, the game is not standing up to the SW brand and we gave you guys the chance to create a SW mmorpg.
Let's look at the facts. LA were not mmorpg builders. That's the reason they seeked out the biggest and the most repected developers at that time, SOE to build a SW MMO. Like i said, i can just see LA and SOE in a room, and LA just saying hey, we put the ball in your court, you guys are the experts at this, do whatever it takes to make things tick.
SOE, in their grand wisdom, instead of adding a better tutorial area and more content on top of the existing game, that had been out, they changed the whole game. It's already been well documented that SOE and SOE alone came up with the changes not LA.
LA wanted it to be a better and more popular game, but SOE was the driving force behind the changes. Their the ones who created the code and maintained the game. The only thing, i think LA really had input on was not how the game played or it's systems but what was in the game concerning the SW canon and such.
Any way you look at it, what went wrong could be, the era that it launched in, being more small community groups that was only into mmo's at that time.
It could have been a lack of a really detailed tutorial, that engaged players from the start and eased them into the more complex systems the game had.
It could have been the lack of any real purpose or content, that the game didn't have, compared to say everquest. Maybe people just didn't know what to do and where to go.
It also could have been just the game code that was riddled with bugs and other things that turned people off and they left for a more polished and stable game to play.
Hey, it was good run, but a run not without it's drama. If you played it at the beginning, you have the memories of what was the good old days. If you played after that up until now, and thought it was really fun, you have those memories to cherish. Remember, nothing lasts forever.
As it was as much Lucas Arts (maybe even more then SOE) that went wrong. And Lucas Art is as much part of SWTOR then it was of SWG.
What about the game players who bitched on and on about a combat balance because they couldnt be arsed grinding teras kasi or the profession they thought was uber. :P That killed everything especially when the uproar after the combat balance came into play. It was not soes fault or lucas at all ! Weall left because we wereall hating, 1-0 to the empire !
Jedi Grind killed it dead, till then it had a vibrant community, in a matter of weeks all the cantinas emptied, all you got were afk macro entertainers.
A sandbox need a community hub, the grind killed that long before the NGE or the CU.
Expresso gave me a Hearthstone beta key.....I'm so happy
I am hoping with the closing of SWG that posts like these will end and those people who have spent the last 6 years of their lives in rage and sorrow will be able to move on.
But I doubt it. To many people will always prefer to knee jerk that SOE is the ultimate evil.
I am hoping with the closing of SWG that posts like these will end and those people who have spent the last 6 years of their lives in rage and sorrow will be able to move on. But I doubt it. To many people will always prefer to knee jerk that SOE is the ultimate evil.
It's not just SWG. SOE screwed up a lot of games before and after it.
Lucas Arts may be partially to blame. But ultimalty it was SOE that didnt inform the player base what so ever about the plans for NGE. There was never offered a Test center to see the reactions about the NGE. They just suprised the whole community with, SUPRISE! We have this cool new revamp of the game, 2 weeks after they just had an expansion that most of the player base already shelled out money for.
So where Lucas Arts might have pressed SOE to make the game attractive to a younger player base, SOE completely ignored there current player base. Even the senior developer said that was a huge mistake on there part. Never disregard the players you already have. Not to mention SOE fired the only person that had a real connection to the current player base and the developers, "Tiggs" Dumbest mistake they could have done. She was very active in the forums trying to put out fires and calm the aggresive voices of the forums.
What I am looking at is, "Did they learn anything from what happened, and is it enough to help them in the future?". SOE learned just enough in my opinion, to be a little more careful in the actions they take. Even to this day I see a lot that scares me, and stops me from subscribing to anything they are a part of. I find, they have matured very little as a company. Sure they might not do anything as drastic anymore, but I can still see them thinking, "Maybe this time we can manage to make it work out?"
LA on the otherhand, based only on what I have seen and played of TOR, have actually managed to learn a good few lessons. Just playing the last three big test weekends, I actually came out thinking "These guys are really trying to to something well done here.", and you don't do anything well with a dictatorship company backing you cranking a whip to work faster. Three big test weekends, three slightly different builds to test and tweak. Can TOR launch with a little more spit and shine? Well of course it could, what game can't? Is what I saw enough for me to continue my pre-order and subscribe on the 20th? You bet it is.
Other may disagree, but thats my (Very short winded version of) two cents.
SWG pre-CU was unique in so many ways. Sadly, after the departure of Raph Koster the rest of developers lost the original focus, and were probably pressured to do changes which corporate bosses were thinking would increase revenue.
SWG had something for practically everyone - even housewives were enjoying social aspects of it, there were grinders, incredible crafters and "businessmen", even elite smack-talking PvPers.
What it lacked is a certain accessibility for beginners, which could have been tweaked easily.
I remember some elements which were supposed to be included in the ORIGINAL Combat Upgrade - and those were excellent, but probably difficult to implement, so under constant pressure to "fluff-up" the game for kids, they come up with the rushed-up CU, which basically just introduced silly colored icons, destroyed many great combat animations, and added "root and snare" silliness.
I don't think Jedi destroyed the game - but in my opinion, the secret of unlocking should have remained a secret. It was mysterious and exciting - should have stayed that way.
All in all - WHAT WENT WRONG IS - if they wanted to make a new game, they should have just make a new game and leave the original one - even barely supported - for those who DID NOT want a new game.
It was the CU and especially the NGE afterwards. SWG died after NGE was patched onto server.
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE-------------------------------------------------- $OE - eternal enemy of online gaming -We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
I'm not too quick to only blame SOE and LA--there part in this was to get more $$$$, but they thought they were doing the right thing with their game because of feedback they were getting from....you guessed it--PLAYERS. The problem is, that feedback wasn't from the players that liked the game, it was from the players that QUIT the game, or indirectly form those that never played. When it came my time to quit, I didn't complain about a single thing--no reason, I just cancelled my subscription.
Some say players quit because of bugs, but how many quit out of boredom or frustration? Quitting from bugs?...maybe a few, but considering the changes they made to the game (NGE), the problem, they felt, was that people simply weren't enjoying their game.
I remember all the complaints I'd read on the boards--and keep in mind this was my very first MMORPG--after a while I noticed a pattern that was later confirmed by SOE. If players complained that they couldn't do as well as other professions, the other profs got NERFED! In a game with skills that are extrememly hard to balance, SOE opts to take the easiest route--take away abilities from those that can do what you CAN'T, so that NONE of you can! (Except Jedi LOL--but even they got nerfed a time or two)...adding frustration to those being NERFED. Why didn't SOE just add capabilites to the weaker profs? Because then someone else would see that and swear that they were now overpowered...so SOE took the position that if enough players say they couldn't do something that the other prof could, then that prof was overpowered--so I begged people to STOP doing that! STOP saying someone else can do something you can't, and instead just ask for better abilities for your profession--NEVER MENTION OTHER PROFESSIONS...did anyone listen?...NO--FRUSTRATING...and so people were constantly complaining about getting nerfed--they'd rage quit--and then the strangest thing would happen on the boards--instead of support form other players, they'd get "Don't let the door knob hit you..." taunts. I remember thinking "wait a minute, these guys' profession was just nerfed to hell, and people are actually happy about that?...ummm, what happens when the nerf bat hits their profession and no other players support them?" So again, I tried to be the voice of reason, begging people to support each other even if the nerf bat didn't impact their gameplay...yet still no one cared, until it was their turn to rage quit.
Let's not forget good old fashioned boredom--SWG became nothing more than a graphical chat room to many--and honestly for the social gamer, there was nothing wrong with that. I'd log in sometimes just to see what people were talking about, but then I decided to get more involved in the GCW and PVP...IT WAS A BLAST! I sucked, but it was fun...having a group of coverts and just a few overts...setting the trap, and when a group of enemy overts jumped our overts...GAME ON!--only to find that they too had coverts...next thing you know you have 40 players fighting and even running for their lives! Too much fun. I remember trying to level up my faction rank, and getting TEF'd and having to run for my life when a group of enemy overts ambushed me!--definitely more challenging than mowing down a dozen Storm Troopers! Hell I even went overt if I saw someone attacking a rebel base, just to get killed with my fellow NPC rebs--still fun...then they changed the system because of complaints, and TEF's went the way of the dinosaur --COMPLETELY destroying the GCW...and boredom set in. I had 3 paying accounts and each one had a yearly subscription--had about 6 months left on them when I stopped logging in to the game--I'd check the forums to see if they were ever going to revive the GCW, but they never did, so I didn't renew.
Want to save SWTOR? I'm going to tell you how:
First, always encourage the devs to add more of what you like to do in the game, but never--and this is going to sound odd to some--but NEVER complain about the stuff you don't like to do, if you don't HAVE to do it. As an example, the flirt dialogue--if you want more opportunites for your character to flirt and get laid, ask that they add more flirtatious dialogue/scenarios--but if you don't give a rat's ass if your character ever gets laid, don't say "Hey devs, instead of stupid flirts, can we get some really evil options?"...instead, just ask for more evil or cruel dialogue options--leave the flirt mechanic out of it because others might actually enjoy it, even if it's a very small percentage of players.
Second, and you're really going to hate this, but don't even complain about stuff you DO have to do that you don't like, if others DO like it. For example, let's say that Bioware decides to make small instanced story quests that allow you to make major changes to the appearance of your character--so anytime you want to change your character's appearance, they've made that option available, but you have to run through a little story quest, so that your character change "enhances" the immersion--it gives a reason for any major change in appearance--it could be different for every class or planet that you're on. Now let's say that many people applaud this mechanic, while many others think it's completely lame and a waste of their time...they just want a "clicky". It sucks, but suck it up lol...and if you rage quit because your character is too lame to complete the quest or you don't have any friends that are willing to help you, then don't mention why you're quitting when they ask you...make up something like "school/work demands" or don't give a reason at all. That way, it doesn't jeopardize something others enjoy.
Third, and finally, don't ever complain--EVER--about what other classes can do! Don't tell them there's a problem with Guardians because Vanguard is a better tank than Guardian...I know, it's already started--which is why I know that nerf bats are at the ready. STOP EFFING DOING THAT PEOPLE!!! Instead, just make suggestions on how Guardian's tanking abilities can and should be improved--hold aggro, crowd control, etc--NEVER MENTION THE OTHER CLASSES...need I say it again?...EVER!!!!! If they see a bunch of people leaving the Guardian class, they might actually do something about it to make it better, but if they see a bunch of people complaining about how much better Vanguards are and that's why they're switching...well, then Vanguard is now a target for nerfdom--doesn't mean they will, but if history has taught us anything, it's that it's easier to take away from a class, than it is to add..."there, now Vanguards aren't better than Guardians--is it lunch time yet?"
Judging by the level of replies given to any random topic here, I know this is all falling on deaf ears. There aren't many that "think" before they post--they see an opportunity to say something like "wall of text" or "tldr", and think themselves clever or above the haters/fanbois.
And since people are going to complain about stuff that other people enjoy anyway...I hate to say it, but some sort of cash shop probably could have helped SWG. Don't like grinding faction points to rank up because of the TEF? Well, buy your rank--problem solved. Sounds ridiculous, but it could've saved the GCW. SWTOR may have to allow people to buy what they hate doing, so that it won't be taken away from those that like doing it.
it wasnt more of swg going wronge imo it was more of the people that were..alot of people didnt want a harder mmo to play..so swg targeted theampark players after they made it easy mode / style to play ..but it was too lil too late "took em to long to react"
changeing a game mid-way thru its life is risky..so risky it failed for em...then came along ea+lucas arts +bioware and its huge budget..the rest is history
imo i liked the "harder / sandbox" style of swg before they made it easy mode..swg had its core of players that loved playing it like that..but then switched to the "flavor of the month" theamparkers / easy moders...its hard to maintain 2 styles of players in a game that started off sandboxie...many things went wronge but im sure soe was part of it too lol i also blame soe for the leaves falling off my trees
it wasnt more of swg going wronge imo it was more of the people that were..alot of people didnt want a harder mmo to play..so swg targeted theampark players after they made it easy mode / style to play ..but it was too lil too late "took em to long to react"
changeing a game mid-way thru its life is risky..so risky it failed for em...then came along ea+lucas arts +bioware and its huge budget..the rest is history
imo i liked the "harder / sandbox" style of swg before they made it easy mode..swg had its core of players that loved playing it like that..but then switched to the "flavor of the month" theamparkers / easy moders...its hard to maintain 2 styles of players in a game that started off sandboxie...many things went wronge but im sure soe was part of it too lol i also blame soe for the leaves falling off my trees
It went wrong when SOE thought that people wanted to play as Uncle Ben or Lando instead of Luke or Han.
Well that would be Burnt n Crispy Uncle Owen, but I agree.
I was 10 yrs old in 78, and SWs sure didnt capture my eye cause of some moisture farming. It was all about the Jedis & space battles back then, as I am sure it is with new fans till this very day.
They could of taken EQs engine, tweaked it for SWG, added whatever crafting, and put in a ton of PVE instead of housing. That game would of shot past EQ well before WoW did. EQ was holding around 450k subs back in 04, and SWG couldnt beat it out. Pretty sad with the IP.
It sucks for those that got attached to that sandbox game, cause it doesnt matter who ya are, you never wanna see your game go bye bye.
SWG is getting the MxO treatment though....has a hardcore following, but simply not enough folks interested. Hopefully some day they get some type of open code release.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
Comments
Sorry, but even though a lot of people believe that, with all due respect: it is bullshit.
SWG was losing subs CONSIDERABLY. I was there in those days and I experienced as enitre guilds and cities died because people were moving to WOW in droves. SOE fought with the back against the wall. It wasn't greed, it was the sheer desperation, trying to survive. You can say the answer, the NGE was wrong, who is to say. A lot of people came to SWG after NGE, even tho it alienated many (but not all) old fans.
But just claiming SOE/Smedley was greedy or SOE is generally inable to do MMOs right is just bollocks.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
I liked SWG from start till even CU....no problems with that.
And if they added more content like the Corvette, or even post NGE like those Hoth BG and other dungeons that I never got to do as I left shortly after the NGE I would have kept playing for years to come.......
It was just the exodus of the server that made me quit.
in 1 month; my guild of 60+ original -and active- players went down to a whopping 6!, my server I was on at the time, Eclipse was a barren wasteland with the occasional 4-5 players in Theed.
Combined with the fact that I got amazing stories about WOW and the fact that it actually ran great with good Customer Service made me try it and stay there...
Empty servers, those made me quit.
"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"
I was there at SWG release and i played all the way till game was changed form head to toe. SWG was actually losing susbscribers fast and no matter how much old school sandbox lovers want us to believe..nop..SWG didn't turn out the success LA was hoping it to be.
So NGE was the last ditch effort to try to get subscriptions back and try to reach broader player base. Who the hell in their right minds would destroy an already profitable game? seriously? so when people say 'hey SWG was doing great, had lots of subs and was a great success'..i usually think 'what a load of crap'.
How many servers SWTOR will launch with on release?
ShredderSE - Umm how many do they need? Maybe 6.
US, EU, Asian, France, German and Russian.
Subs will be so low there is no need for more
Snoocky-How many servers?
The first 3 months a lot...after that 2 i guess, one for PVE and 1 for PVP...
Thorbrand - SWTOR doesn't have longevity at all. Might be one of the shortest lived MMOs.
CU and then NGE imo
What went wrong:
1. The game was never finished, this theme would run through the game's entire history.
2. LucasArts weren't happy that a Star Wars game was considered "niche."
3. LA/SOE chased the Holy Grail of MMORPG's, mass appeal.
4. Ignored the warning signs. When the CU was introduced the game a large proportion quit and the changes attracted few new subs and not nearly enough to bring population back to it preCU levels. Would another major game play change do the same?
5. Forced New Game Enhancements on the SWG community immediately after a major expansion! The biggest "DOH!" in MMO history. Nothing is going to infuriate a consumer more than this. It did and player cities turned to ghost town's literally over night..
6. If SWG wasn't near it's finished build at release, NGE was barely started. This soon prompted players to think along the lines of "Hang on, I'm paying monthly subs to beta test a game? WTF?"
7. SOE broke promises it couldn't keep. Clash detection in six months? Never happened. There were numerous others.
8. SOE spent an inordinate amount of effort trying to win back players that had left and again neglected and annoyed their current player base.
9. With the vast majority of community leaders leaving, player organised events dwindled. The new breed of SWG player needed to be spoonfed and lead by the nose as this is what they were used to in other games.
10. The jacked up game engine also fell apart when more than 20 ppl gathered. Mass PvP invariably became a slideshow.
11. It took the best part of 2 years before any new themepark content was introduced as SOE rebuilt the game. As this game was now supposed to be a themepark title, it had little themepark content to boast. Mustafar and Kashyyk soon became tired.
12. Lack of cohesion. Post NGE the game went through more lead dev's than you could wave a wiggly stick at. Each had they're own spin and took SWG in different directions. Post NGE population probably peaked when the Echo Base instance was introduced.
13. After Echo Base it became obviously apparent that there would be no new content of the same scale. Echo base had failed to attract the subs anticipated.
14. Players got wind of a new Star Wars MMO. SWTOR was shortly announced.
SWTOR might be the new WoW killer, the jury is still out. SWTOR is definitely the final nail in the SWG coffin.
I get the impression that Lucas Arts made sure to get involved in the game's direction early on this time around, because of what happened with SWG. They know changing the game post-release was a mistake, so they've pushed for Bioware to make a certain kind of game, from the very beginning, so that they wouldn't need to make any drastic changes later.
So, if you love TOR the way it is, I don't think you have to worry. You are the audience LA was hoping for, and this time, they're launching with you in mind.
When I want a single-player story, I'll play a single-player game. When I play an MMO, I want a massively multiplayer world.
Kotor1 and kotor2 were fairly popular games both, Bioware and Lucarts are tapping on ready fanbase that for most parts stays true to the single player prequels.
SWG was doing fine, peaked at 300k subs when WoW released and took the world by force. After WoW made MMOs mainstream, new MMOs started pop out like mushrooms in the rain and SWG couldnt keep up with increasing competition and started losing subs. Therefore they thought they could buff up the subs by slicing themselves a piece of the wow cake...ending up with weird cut&paste work that didnt attract many new players and completely alienated the old ones.
For SWTOR to suffer SWGs fate, it would need to pull the rug from below KOTOR fans feet and change the way the game is played 100% middle of the game cycle.
SOE got their greedy hands on it. And they pushed launch WAY to early with tons of bugs and almost no content.
Bugs wasnt fixed
Content like the Alderaan story arc stopped
Jedi was introduced to the game.
To much profession fixes due to flavour of the month. Really... whats the point if all professions are completly balanced?
John Smedly
Julio Torres (LA)
Shit if they just spent all the money and time used on the CU and the NGE on fixing the game and adding content the freakin game would have done just fine.
Things they should have worked more on is thing like the Corellian corvette missions, the Genosian cave and such.....
Stupid SOE never realized what a gem they had in their posession..
Hauken Stormchaser
I want pre-CU back
Station.com : We got your game
Yeah?, Well i want it back!!!
I don't know. I think putting the blame on LA the most is not correct. Don't get me wrong, but just look at SOE's track record since the demise of SWG. They surely haven't been the epitomy of gaming development, that's for sure.
I can understand back in that time, LA, scratching their head thinking, how in the world is SWG not the biggest and most popular game out. SW is the most popular IP in the world and the game is just blah and getting slaughtered by other games.
I can surely see a meeting or a very serious phone call between LA and SOE that must have happened. LA probably said, the game is not standing up to the SW brand and we gave you guys the chance to create a SW mmorpg.
Let's look at the facts. LA were not mmorpg builders. That's the reason they seeked out the biggest and the most repected developers at that time, SOE to build a SW MMO. Like i said, i can just see LA and SOE in a room, and LA just saying hey, we put the ball in your court, you guys are the experts at this, do whatever it takes to make things tick.
SOE, in their grand wisdom, instead of adding a better tutorial area and more content on top of the existing game, that had been out, they changed the whole game. It's already been well documented that SOE and SOE alone came up with the changes not LA.
LA wanted it to be a better and more popular game, but SOE was the driving force behind the changes. Their the ones who created the code and maintained the game. The only thing, i think LA really had input on was not how the game played or it's systems but what was in the game concerning the SW canon and such.
Any way you look at it, what went wrong could be, the era that it launched in, being more small community groups that was only into mmo's at that time.
It could have been a lack of a really detailed tutorial, that engaged players from the start and eased them into the more complex systems the game had.
It could have been the lack of any real purpose or content, that the game didn't have, compared to say everquest. Maybe people just didn't know what to do and where to go.
It also could have been just the game code that was riddled with bugs and other things that turned people off and they left for a more polished and stable game to play.
Hey, it was good run, but a run not without it's drama. If you played it at the beginning, you have the memories of what was the good old days. If you played after that up until now, and thought it was really fun, you have those memories to cherish. Remember, nothing lasts forever.
What about the game players who bitched on and on about a combat balance because they couldnt be arsed grinding teras kasi or the profession they thought was uber. :P That killed everything especially when the uproar after the combat balance came into play. It was not soes fault or lucas at all ! Weall left because we wereall hating, 1-0 to the empire !
http://www.speedtest.net/result/1651869499.png
Jedi Grind killed it dead, till then it had a vibrant community, in a matter of weeks all the cantinas emptied, all you got were afk macro entertainers.
A sandbox need a community hub, the grind killed that long before the NGE or the CU.
Expresso gave me a Hearthstone beta key.....I'm so happy
long answer, see initial post :P
"I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"
I am hoping with the closing of SWG that posts like these will end and those people who have spent the last 6 years of their lives in rage and sorrow will be able to move on.
But I doubt it. To many people will always prefer to knee jerk that SOE is the ultimate evil.
It's not just SWG. SOE screwed up a lot of games before and after it.
Fool me once, shame on you.
Fool me twice, shame on me.
Fool me thrice, I'm asking for it.
Fool me any further, this is just getting sad.
That pretty much sums SOE to a 't'.
-Azure Prower
http://www.youtube.com/AzurePrower
Lucas Arts may be partially to blame. But ultimalty it was SOE that didnt inform the player base what so ever about the plans for NGE. There was never offered a Test center to see the reactions about the NGE. They just suprised the whole community with, SUPRISE! We have this cool new revamp of the game, 2 weeks after they just had an expansion that most of the player base already shelled out money for.
So where Lucas Arts might have pressed SOE to make the game attractive to a younger player base, SOE completely ignored there current player base. Even the senior developer said that was a huge mistake on there part. Never disregard the players you already have. Not to mention SOE fired the only person that had a real connection to the current player base and the developers, "Tiggs" Dumbest mistake they could have done. She was very active in the forums trying to put out fires and calm the aggresive voices of the forums.
What I am looking at is, "Did they learn anything from what happened, and is it enough to help them in the future?". SOE learned just enough in my opinion, to be a little more careful in the actions they take. Even to this day I see a lot that scares me, and stops me from subscribing to anything they are a part of. I find, they have matured very little as a company. Sure they might not do anything as drastic anymore, but I can still see them thinking, "Maybe this time we can manage to make it work out?"
LA on the otherhand, based only on what I have seen and played of TOR, have actually managed to learn a good few lessons. Just playing the last three big test weekends, I actually came out thinking "These guys are really trying to to something well done here.", and you don't do anything well with a dictatorship company backing you cranking a whip to work faster. Three big test weekends, three slightly different builds to test and tweak. Can TOR launch with a little more spit and shine? Well of course it could, what game can't? Is what I saw enough for me to continue my pre-order and subscribe on the 20th? You bet it is.
Other may disagree, but thats my (Very short winded version of) two cents.
1) SOE failed to listen to their paying consumers.
2) New content was too slow to come (when it did it was in the form of an expan$ion pack) and old broken content was left broken for too long.
3) Jedi (too overpowered and they required nothing from other players) Jedi forever changed the focus of the game.
Long before the NGE SWG was doomed and that's the fault of SOE not lucas arts.
SWG pre-CU was unique in so many ways. Sadly, after the departure of Raph Koster the rest of developers lost the original focus, and were probably pressured to do changes which corporate bosses were thinking would increase revenue.
SWG had something for practically everyone - even housewives were enjoying social aspects of it, there were grinders, incredible crafters and "businessmen", even elite smack-talking PvPers.
What it lacked is a certain accessibility for beginners, which could have been tweaked easily.
I remember some elements which were supposed to be included in the ORIGINAL Combat Upgrade - and those were excellent, but probably difficult to implement, so under constant pressure to "fluff-up" the game for kids, they come up with the rushed-up CU, which basically just introduced silly colored icons, destroyed many great combat animations, and added "root and snare" silliness.
I don't think Jedi destroyed the game - but in my opinion, the secret of unlocking should have remained a secret. It was mysterious and exciting - should have stayed that way.
All in all - WHAT WENT WRONG IS - if they wanted to make a new game, they should have just make a new game and leave the original one - even barely supported - for those who DID NOT want a new game.
NEW IDEAS that can refresh the STALE state of MMORPGs
It was the CU and especially the NGE afterwards. SWG died after NGE was patched onto server.
-----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
$OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
-We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!
"There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)
I'm not too quick to only blame SOE and LA--there part in this was to get more $$$$, but they thought they were doing the right thing with their game because of feedback they were getting from....you guessed it--PLAYERS. The problem is, that feedback wasn't from the players that liked the game, it was from the players that QUIT the game, or indirectly form those that never played. When it came my time to quit, I didn't complain about a single thing--no reason, I just cancelled my subscription.
Some say players quit because of bugs, but how many quit out of boredom or frustration? Quitting from bugs?...maybe a few, but considering the changes they made to the game (NGE), the problem, they felt, was that people simply weren't enjoying their game.
I remember all the complaints I'd read on the boards--and keep in mind this was my very first MMORPG--after a while I noticed a pattern that was later confirmed by SOE. If players complained that they couldn't do as well as other professions, the other profs got NERFED! In a game with skills that are extrememly hard to balance, SOE opts to take the easiest route--take away abilities from those that can do what you CAN'T, so that NONE of you can! (Except Jedi LOL--but even they got nerfed a time or two)...adding frustration to those being NERFED. Why didn't SOE just add capabilites to the weaker profs? Because then someone else would see that and swear that they were now overpowered...so SOE took the position that if enough players say they couldn't do something that the other prof could, then that prof was overpowered--so I begged people to STOP doing that! STOP saying someone else can do something you can't, and instead just ask for better abilities for your profession--NEVER MENTION OTHER PROFESSIONS...did anyone listen?...NO--FRUSTRATING...and so people were constantly complaining about getting nerfed--they'd rage quit--and then the strangest thing would happen on the boards--instead of support form other players, they'd get "Don't let the door knob hit you..." taunts. I remember thinking "wait a minute, these guys' profession was just nerfed to hell, and people are actually happy about that?...ummm, what happens when the nerf bat hits their profession and no other players support them?" So again, I tried to be the voice of reason, begging people to support each other even if the nerf bat didn't impact their gameplay...yet still no one cared, until it was their turn to rage quit.
Let's not forget good old fashioned boredom--SWG became nothing more than a graphical chat room to many--and honestly for the social gamer, there was nothing wrong with that. I'd log in sometimes just to see what people were talking about, but then I decided to get more involved in the GCW and PVP...IT WAS A BLAST! I sucked, but it was fun...having a group of coverts and just a few overts...setting the trap, and when a group of enemy overts jumped our overts...GAME ON!--only to find that they too had coverts...next thing you know you have 40 players fighting and even running for their lives! Too much fun. I remember trying to level up my faction rank, and getting TEF'd and having to run for my life when a group of enemy overts ambushed me!--definitely more challenging than mowing down a dozen Storm Troopers! Hell I even went overt if I saw someone attacking a rebel base, just to get killed with my fellow NPC rebs--still fun...then they changed the system because of complaints, and TEF's went the way of the dinosaur --COMPLETELY destroying the GCW...and boredom set in. I had 3 paying accounts and each one had a yearly subscription--had about 6 months left on them when I stopped logging in to the game--I'd check the forums to see if they were ever going to revive the GCW, but they never did, so I didn't renew.
Want to save SWTOR? I'm going to tell you how:
First, always encourage the devs to add more of what you like to do in the game, but never--and this is going to sound odd to some--but NEVER complain about the stuff you don't like to do, if you don't HAVE to do it. As an example, the flirt dialogue--if you want more opportunites for your character to flirt and get laid, ask that they add more flirtatious dialogue/scenarios--but if you don't give a rat's ass if your character ever gets laid, don't say "Hey devs, instead of stupid flirts, can we get some really evil options?"...instead, just ask for more evil or cruel dialogue options--leave the flirt mechanic out of it because others might actually enjoy it, even if it's a very small percentage of players.
Second, and you're really going to hate this, but don't even complain about stuff you DO have to do that you don't like, if others DO like it. For example, let's say that Bioware decides to make small instanced story quests that allow you to make major changes to the appearance of your character--so anytime you want to change your character's appearance, they've made that option available, but you have to run through a little story quest, so that your character change "enhances" the immersion--it gives a reason for any major change in appearance--it could be different for every class or planet that you're on. Now let's say that many people applaud this mechanic, while many others think it's completely lame and a waste of their time...they just want a "clicky". It sucks, but suck it up lol...and if you rage quit because your character is too lame to complete the quest or you don't have any friends that are willing to help you, then don't mention why you're quitting when they ask you...make up something like "school/work demands" or don't give a reason at all. That way, it doesn't jeopardize something others enjoy.
Third, and finally, don't ever complain--EVER--about what other classes can do! Don't tell them there's a problem with Guardians because Vanguard is a better tank than Guardian...I know, it's already started--which is why I know that nerf bats are at the ready. STOP EFFING DOING THAT PEOPLE!!! Instead, just make suggestions on how Guardian's tanking abilities can and should be improved--hold aggro, crowd control, etc--NEVER MENTION THE OTHER CLASSES...need I say it again?...EVER!!!!! If they see a bunch of people leaving the Guardian class, they might actually do something about it to make it better, but if they see a bunch of people complaining about how much better Vanguards are and that's why they're switching...well, then Vanguard is now a target for nerfdom--doesn't mean they will, but if history has taught us anything, it's that it's easier to take away from a class, than it is to add..."there, now Vanguards aren't better than Guardians--is it lunch time yet?"
Judging by the level of replies given to any random topic here, I know this is all falling on deaf ears. There aren't many that "think" before they post--they see an opportunity to say something like "wall of text" or "tldr", and think themselves clever or above the haters/fanbois.
And since people are going to complain about stuff that other people enjoy anyway...I hate to say it, but some sort of cash shop probably could have helped SWG. Don't like grinding faction points to rank up because of the TEF? Well, buy your rank--problem solved. Sounds ridiculous, but it could've saved the GCW. SWTOR may have to allow people to buy what they hate doing, so that it won't be taken away from those that like doing it.
It went wrong when SOE thought that people wanted to play as Uncle Ben or Lando instead of Luke or Han.
The NGE, i thought everyone knew that.
it wasnt more of swg going wronge imo it was more of the people that were..alot of people didnt want a harder mmo to play..so swg targeted theampark players after they made it easy mode / style to play ..but it was too lil too late "took em to long to react"
changeing a game mid-way thru its life is risky..so risky it failed for em...then came along ea+lucas arts +bioware and its huge budget..the rest is history
imo i liked the "harder / sandbox" style of swg before they made it easy mode..swg had its core of players that loved playing it like that..but then switched to the "flavor of the month" theamparkers / easy moders...its hard to maintain 2 styles of players in a game that started off sandboxie...many things went wronge but im sure soe was part of it too lol i also blame soe for the leaves falling off my trees
I agree, people gave up on it!
Well that would be Burnt n Crispy Uncle Owen, but I agree.
I was 10 yrs old in 78, and SWs sure didnt capture my eye cause of some moisture farming. It was all about the Jedis & space battles back then, as I am sure it is with new fans till this very day.
They could of taken EQs engine, tweaked it for SWG, added whatever crafting, and put in a ton of PVE instead of housing. That game would of shot past EQ well before WoW did. EQ was holding around 450k subs back in 04, and SWG couldnt beat it out. Pretty sad with the IP.
It sucks for those that got attached to that sandbox game, cause it doesnt matter who ya are, you never wanna see your game go bye bye.
SWG is getting the MxO treatment though....has a hardcore following, but simply not enough folks interested. Hopefully some day they get some type of open code release.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.