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what's our general consensus on the whole 8 man raid thing?
Joshua69
Member UncommonPosts: 953
has anyone done a raid, or seen more exensive raid playing? 8 man raids seem small, i can't figure out if that will be a good thing or a crumy thing? usually raid's are fun for the lots of people you have with you, which can also be a bad thing, what with drama and the whole trying to find that many people to be devoted to raiding. kinda a double edged sword i suppose? Just haven't heard anything about this
Comments
i played/playing WoW for 7 years now. When they first nerfed raiding from 40 man to 25 man i was pissed but i got used to it. Then came the 10 man versions and i got mad again but got used to it. But now if i look back i sometimes ask myself "damn how did we manage to find 40 dedicated players back in the day who would log in every night to raid."
All in all 8 man is fine. Less dedication required from players. Sometiems we would have 30 or 20 players and would cancel the raid that night. So 8 man is ok, opens up opportunity for PUGs. And people without a successful guild can get a chance at gears atleast from the normal version of the 8 mans. They might not complete hard or nightmare mode on PUG but atleast they won't fall behind that much.
IMO that's good because everyone playing the game deserves some chance at end game gear even if they don't have 10 hours to dedicate to the game everyday. That's why WoW works.
Currently Playing: SSFIV AE, SFxTekken, SWTOR, WoW. Waiting for: GW2, Resident Evil 6.
Yeah, 8 man raids seem a bit smallish, but it will guarantee an easier time of seeing raid content for people. I do find the 8 and 16 man requirements for the raids a bit...strange. Just seems like a bit too arbitrary of a number, as do the 4 man instances. Oh well.
Groups of 4/raids of 8/16 implies fewer DPS per tanks and healers, meaning the already strained dps-to-heals/tanks ratio seen in other MMOs will be worse. I've always thought Vanguard's party size of 6 was a good size. Parties of 6, raids of 12 and 24.
Everything I say is my opinion or personal preference. You may or may not find it useful to your cause but regardless I am entitled to it.
I havent done a raid . that said i dont see an issue with 8/16 man operations
They have stated somehwere that max group size is 24 i think so they may add a 24 man raid in future. right now its 8/16
Haven done 10 mans in wow and 25 i found 10 mans were a bit harder as u lose one player adn the whole raid suffers where as in 25 man u could lose a few and still beat the encounter.
I cant wait to try it out though . I have issue with the group size but it does encourage players to play more then just dps
And with most of the classes beign able to tank or heal and some do both its not like players dont have diffrent options to heal or tank as.
Now I dont know about raids, but every full 4 man group I was in, you could not pull out your companions because you didnt have enough room in the group. So don't think your going to see any big groups full of companions.
The 8 and 16 mans works out just fine, there is nothing different from the 10 and 20 mans in other games. If you look on youtube or anywhere else on the net, you can find some raid videos that were posted from the last weekend beta event.
I prefer the smaller raid scene personally.
It makes you think harder and work better as a team. I came from AoC where the last expansion introduced six man raids which were, at times, exceptionally difficult. You lose one man and you might be able to pull it off still, but you lose two and it's pretty much over for you.
The downside to smaller raids is that it kind of forces more casual players out. If you prefer to not have a whole lot of responsiblity in a raid except for maybe spamming your DPS ability or your heal, then the smaller raids won't suit your playstyle.
There's both pros and cons. One of my favorite pros is that it's usually pretty easy to find three friends in your guild that will raid with you on a regular basis... trying to organize 25 people is just a headache that I don't even like dealing with.
Companions arent allowed in operatons . They are only allowed into a flashpoint if u dont have a full 4 man group if u have a full 4 man group u wont have any companions out
They arent allowed in warzones either . They are allowed in open world pvp but not operations
Well sure it works mechanically. The trouble is where it lands the "metagame". It puts a greater stress on a naturally low healer and tank population, meaning you end up with a greater number of unhappy DPS players. In my mind that translates to a generally unhappier playerbase, or a hitherto unseen surplus of horrid tanks.
companions are not allowed when groups are full. If your group consists of 3 people then one of you can summon a companion. And i believe companions are not allowed in instanced pvp or raids at all.
Currently Playing: SSFIV AE, SFxTekken, SWTOR, WoW. Waiting for: GW2, Resident Evil 6.
Companions arent allowed in operatons . They are only allowed into a flashpoint if u dont have a full 4 man group if u have a full 4 man group u wont have any companions out
They arent allowed in warzones either . They are allowed in open world pvp but not operations
Thanks for the info kind sir. /bowEverything I say is my opinion or personal preference. You may or may not find it useful to your cause but regardless I am entitled to it.
I'm not seeing your reasoning. Could you elaborate a little? At most you'd need 2 healers, 2 tanks and the other 4 spots would be blend of DPS and CC or even an Offtank. Where as with a large group you'd need more healers. I don't know maybe i'm just not seeing, exactly what it is you are saying.
In War - Victory.
In Peace - Vigilance.
In Death - Sacrifice.
I havent done any raiding in TOR.
I did however do a lot of raiding during my years playing EQ. 72 man raids are NOT fun. It is just a huge mess to keep everyone focused. That stupid Plane of Water raid, where you had to time everything right, caused a lot of upset within our guild back then. We eventually made it into Time the legitimate way, but we worked our arses off for it.
If 8 man is going to be the largest raid size, I may actually check into some of it.
Asking Devs to make AAA sandbox titles is like trying to get fine dining on a McDonalds dollar menu budget.
cool, learned a lot i didin't know reading posts. I feel more optomisitc now that everyone seems to have the general same idea I have, as in, less people = less drama and easier access. but what will the setup be? My guess would be two tanks two heals four dps. But if it is big on dual class specs, or multiple rolls, It might be a one tank thing, and the off tank swiches rolls depending, same with healer...
My line of reasoning is like this:
In all MMOs I've played where a tank/healer/dps paradigm holds, there is a DPS surplus and/or a tank/healer shortage. I attribute this to average player mentality - DPS somehow tends to come off as more "fun", less stressful, simply because the group's endeavour is more often jeapordized by small mistakes on the parts of the healers and tanks than the DPS. (I understand that this is not ALWAYS the case, but it is frequent enough that DPSers I've known often express an unwillingness to tank or heal in a pinch - even when the option is given easily such as with WOW's dual spec.)
So if we go ahead and assume that this is indeed a factor of human nature, then we'll likely see similar ratios of DPS-players, tank-players, and healer-players in SW:TOR as we do in WOW, Rift, Warhammer, Vanguard, EQ, etc. Since TOR is lowering the number of DPS required per tank and healer, then more DPS get left out of groups and raids and/or they actually have a harder time finding a group than they would in WOW.
Groups may come together faster for healer-players and tank-players, but far more DPS-players will be sitting by spamming "LFG". This leads to two possibilities in my mind:
1. Those DPSers end up respeccing/rerolling to heal or tank, but may continue to be unhappy about it, and many will underperform or not understand the "philosophies" behind tanking or healing. Rocket science? No indeed, but I've seen plenty of people who were fantastic as DPS but just couldn't tank for whatever reason.
- or -
2. Those DPSers end up saying "wow, can't get a party in TOR", and go back to some other game where they recall the grass being greener.
I remember Vanguard's party sizes fondly, when I played DPS I really never had trouble finding groups (that was a long time ago of course, and I did spend most of my time as a tank. hehe)
40 man raids?! Back in EQ1 we needed to get 72 players
Those were the days were you made real friends among a strong community. No add-ons, or 3rd party programs to tell people how to play the game. People were vetted hard core to make sure all the raiders were top notch caliber. That build a strong roster for the guild. Guild leaders were ruthless yet fair. Had to be because when you have to deal with 72 man raid force, listening and following orders were vastly important. Especially when your average raid were about 6-7+ hours a day.
People forget that EQ1 shaped vanilla WoW. The disgruntled EQ1 players who could never compete in the high end raiding game. WoW was the answer to the causals of EQ1. They found a way to level up much easier and faster. Quests were very easy to follow and complete. You didn't need to group up to get max level. Instancing was the answer to the monopoly 1 or 2 high end guilds had on the world bosses. I mean the list goes on.
I am not bashing WoW at all. I think it brought alot of good things to the MMO community, in the fact it introduced ALOT of fans that was missing it. They made it more accessible to the masses. And in turn made other gaming companies produce more and more MMOs.
I just bring it up because when I hear about 40 man raids were the normal. I just need to set the record straight, that raiding was much much harder back in the day before WoW.
This is also a concern of mine. Especially since my main (and the mains of most everyone, I suppose) is going to be a damage dealer. Fortunately I have friends who like playing tanks, so this should make it easier for me. But that doesn't help everyone else.
Ahh Got ya.
In War - Victory.
In Peace - Vigilance.
In Death - Sacrifice.
I'm perfectly fine with 8 / 16 man raids. It's easier to have 16 or 8 focused people than 25 or 40. Besides, this will help in having some cozy less membered guilds instead of 100+ member behemoths.
I really loved the epicness of 40 man raids in wow vanillia. Everyone remember on your first 40 mans where you would have to rez atop of the mountain near black rock mountain and run back from there, I did that a few times.
Comparing that to something like Upper Black Rock Spire which required 10 people, they both had there uppsides and downsides. I bet I did UBRS 200 times, it was always fun though and never got old, Im sure 8 people wont feel any different if the dungeons are done well.
It makes the game accesable for small casual groups of good players.
And when we did 40 man Naxx i asked my self "Damn how did we get 72 men online every day in EQ1?"
Especially considering the game at its glory years had about 300.000 subs
Guess most were hardcore back then!
I'm glad its 8.
Its a realistic number.
It won't be impossible to assemble a raid and everyone will hopefully, feel needed.
If you want a challenge, set the raid to the automatic suicide difficulty level.
"Don't corpse-camp that idea. Its never gonna rez"
Bladezz (The Guild)
offT: May I give you both +1,000 internets for your display of a civil discussion? Someone presents a statement, the other guy asks for an explanation and gets it, all in civil tones. Just blew me away to see this in a public forum.
onT:
Larger group sizes seem to offer better opportunities for new players to larn the ropes, i.e. if you are not playing at 110% the whole group won't suffer. Maybe the easier game modes will help with this, too.
I'm not convinced that finding a guild that is noob-friendly, but also does endgame is going to be easy. But maybe TOR's base is going to be so huge that those guilds will exist.
72 player raids? Did everyone get the playbook emailed beforehand, or has TS/vent/etc been around that long?