Although it is possible it is impractical. The one lesson that every MMO developer learned from the NGE was that changing the core gameplay elements of any game is pure suicide for your game. It will piss off your core subscribers to the point they will quit and it will scare off any potential customers by the extremely bad word of mouth being spread by what used to be your dedicated fan base. It would be pure stupidity for anyone to even try.
Although it is possible it is impractical. The one lesson that every MMO developer learned from the NGE was that changing the core gameplay elements of any game is pure suicide for your game. It will piss off your core subscribers to the point they will quit and it will scare off any potential customers by the extremely bad word of mouth being spread by what used to be your dedicated fan base. It would be pure stupidity for anyone to even try.
Bren
I disagree. NGE failed because it enforced new mechanic on players that didn't want it. Had the NGE been for a brand new server only instead of the whole game, would it have been in this mess? Because only players that want that kind of gameplay would roll on that NGE server. But instead it was forced on all players.
I'm not sure the question is valid in the context is SWG and the NGE. I don't think it can be said that the NGE changed SWG from a Sandbox to a Themepark. The class system replaced the skill system but the world remained pretty much the same.
I used to go and solo Rancors pre NGE, after the NGE you'd have to be high enough level to do that, or alternatively, take some friends, but there was nothing to stop you trying. The game was never on rails like a Themepark. You were still free to go where you wanted and do what you felt like.
But to answer the question can you turn a Themepark into a Sandbox, I'd say not without a massive amount of effort and it would probably still backfire. This is a fundamental core design decision and it goes in right at the start of the project. It's not something you mess with later. Just look at what happened when SWG introduced the holo grind, the community almost collapsed as everyone started dropping professions to unlock their jedi. All the well known artisans disappeared so the best armour and weapons became scarce. Just a bad idea.
Although it is possible it is impractical. The one lesson that every MMO developer learned from the NGE was that changing the core gameplay elements of any game is pure suicide for your game. It will piss off your core subscribers to the point they will quit and it will scare off any potential customers by the extremely bad word of mouth being spread by what used to be your dedicated fan base. It would be pure stupidity for anyone to even try.
Bren
I disagree. NGE failed because it enforced new mechanic on players that didn't want it. Had the NGE been for a brand new server only instead of the whole game, would it have been in this mess? Because only players that want that kind of gameplay would roll on that NGE server. But instead it was forced on all players.
But you aren't talking about this are you? Your OP was about taking an established Themepark game and turning it into a Sandbox. This would be just as disasterous as the NGE was for SWG. As for running two completely different games on different servers... You may as well make a whole new game from the ground up if your going to do that. What your purposing isn't quite as easy as changing a PvP flag or 'claiming' it's an 'RP' server. Once you've changed the core mechanics of the game it's something else entirely. This may even need a completely different server setup to run the game on.
I think yes, it is possible, of course it is, almost everything is possible with proper resources time and money. It is programming.
But, as the old saying goes "Just because we Can do something, that does not necessarilly means that we must do that thing".
So...lets evaluate the Hypothetical scenario here, that WoW comes with apatch that Turns the game to a Sandbox...I personaly think that would be a great way for them to close down offices and lay off 80% of their staff.
But it would be Fun as hell to see and experience lml ...uhmmm!
***You are dead, your Tier 10 Gear set has been looted by Ipawnzoru***
Lol...we would be able to open our windows and hear the lamentations of 11 million souls.
Jokes asside, i think it could be possible even for a game like WoW but it would have to be introduced very gradually step by step if they really wanted to.
The bottom line is it may simply not be a good idea to do so, like it was the Case with SWG. They wanted more, they lost everything.
- Duke Suraknar - Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
Reduce level-gap by increasing level one hitpoints and damage to endgame niveau. You still have to level up to get all your spells and skills.
Remove ready-to-use item drops. All items have to be crafted. The materials come from gathering professions and npc loot. Material for high-end items comes from raid-loot. Everything is tadeable, no BoP or BoE.
To repair your items you have to provide some of the materials that were required to build it.
Guilds can claim regions by completing quests and running dungeons there. The guild and its members then can build houses, armories, workshops etc. It is much more efficient to craft in a player built workshop than in a generic workshop in the capital.
Something like that? It doesn't even need full loot pvp.
NGE didnt totally turn SWG into a themepark game... Even post NGE it was very sandboxy compared to the MMOs today. It definitely butchered the game, but the main sandbox component it removed was the skill system that allowed you to be multiple professions. So yes, another game could easily add that in... But they would not be a sandbox just because of that 1 feature.
A game like WOW or its clones SWTOR/RIFT could never be a sandbox. They are just too far into development to have such a huge overhaul... Starting from scratch would be easier. I am pretty confident when I say that, but I am not a professional software engineer just a hobbyist.
I know it may not be a great idea to make radical changes to a MMO , but I was curious if it was possible to change THEMEPARK MMO like WoW and Rift, into a sandbox. If there is, how could it be done?
I mean, imagine if SWG, had launched in the post NGE format, and a anti NGE patch was added post launch. Technically wouldn't that be the same as converting a THEMEPARK MMO into a sandbox?
so shouldn't it be able to be done to any themepark? If so, what's the formula?
Well..you're first assuming NGE made SWG into a themepark MMO..it didn't. That was part of the problem, the switch was half-assed, unwanted and executed poorly.
What NGE did to SWG was make classes linear and dumb, while leaving the rest of the game largely untouched. So you had a sandbox framework, with themepark classes that were exceptionally limited in what they could do.
Without the necessary framework of a themepark mmo it failed disasterously and this is where I think the answer to your question is.
A Sandbox cannot be remade into a Themepark, and a Themepark cannot be remade into a sandbox, not without completely overhauling the entire game, and if a developer is planning on that, it'd probably be less work just to make a new game all together.
Possible - yes. You can change the code as much as You like. You can turn any MMO into a Notepad if You so desire. But what's the point?
Themepark features are what defines given themepark MMO. If You start taking them away and replacing the core mechanics with those of a sandbox game You pretty much create entirely new game that only happens to be set in same universe. You have to redesign every bit of it, create tons of new content that will fit the sadnbox ideology, wipe all the current progression... The only thing that could surive such procedure would be assets, like textures and model meshes.
It's simply much easier to add new rules to existing set than change everything from the ground. Game as an concept is set of rules. Whole design-studies are about the fact that You start with idea and thorugh iteration process You add new rules that limit the player thus creating what is called gameplay. Since it's iteration oriented process if You change one of early rules You imposed You need to change every rule in chain starting from that first one.
Sadly there is no mmotype.ini file with IsSandbox parameter that can be set to 1 or 0 depending on Your mood. :P
Really if you turned a themepark into a sandbox you will have created some sort of hybrid monster of awesomeness.
I mean, take SWG for example... You had classes, ie professions. Players could have chosen one and stuck with it and not mixed and matched at all. That would be 'linear' like the shittiest themepark.
SWG also had themepark quests. Not a ton but it had some quests where you are guided by the hand here and there and at the end you get a cool item and get to meet the emperor or something.
So all you really need to do is create a game that holds your hand, tells you what to do, gives you little rewards at the right frequency... ala a 'themepark'. But then it also has a whole sandbox to be discovered once you get bored of the handholding. This would obviously be the ultimate MMO, but to design a whole world full of quests and rewards etc and then balance that with player crafted items and sandbox features like city building, crafting, non-combat classes, etc... It would be a HUGE game. HUGE. Bigger than anything anyones even come close to making before.
It is not as easy as you would think since add themepark feature is like adding law to a city. If you build a game with laws in place to make the game function in certain ways, but then take them away you break that fucton needing it to have a new fuction add to fix this. It would actually be much smarter as well as easier to make a game from scratch tht you crate the features complimenting your prefered style, then altering a game style that relies on stringent structures to keep the experince as it was entended. You could liken it to a building structure if you cut out or alter it without reenforcing or adjusting the structure you may just see the building collapse.
Really if you turned a themepark into a sandbox you will have created some sort of hybrid monster of awesomeness. I mean, take SWG for example... You had classes, ie professions. Players could have chosen one and stuck with it and not mixed and matched at all. That would be 'linear' like the shittiest themepark. SWG also had themepark quests. Not a ton but it had some quests where you are guided by the hand here and there and at the end you get a cool item and get to meet the emperor or something. So all you really need to do is create a game that holds your hand, tells you what to do, gives you little rewards at the right frequency... ala a 'themepark'. But then it also has a whole sandbox to be discovered once you get bored of the handholding. This would obviously be the ultimate MMO, but to design a whole world full of quests and rewards etc and then balance that with player crafted items and sandbox features like city building, crafting, non-combat classes, etc... It would be a HUGE game. HUGE. Bigger than anything anyones even come close to making before.
Really if you turned a themepark into a sandbox you will have created some sort of hybrid monster of awesomeness.
I mean, take SWG for example... You had classes, ie professions. Players could have chosen one and stuck with it and not mixed and matched at all. That would be 'linear' like the shittiest themepark.
SWG also had themepark quests. Not a ton but it had some quests where you are guided by the hand here and there and at the end you get a cool item and get to meet the emperor or something.
So all you really need to do is create a game that holds your hand, tells you what to do, gives you little rewards at the right frequency... ala a 'themepark'. But then it also has a whole sandbox to be discovered once you get bored of the handholding. This would obviously be the ultimate MMO, but to design a whole world full of quests and rewards etc and then balance that with player crafted items and sandbox features like city building, crafting, non-combat classes, etc... It would be a HUGE game. HUGE. Bigger than anything anyones even come close to making before.
I do not agree intirelly. Saying that Classes from a themepark can be an interchangeable term woth Professions of a Sandbox game is not accurate.
A class in a themepark has a restricted associated Role attached to it. A profession from a Sanbox game does not have a restricted role, the player can assume the role they wish depending on the circumstance.
Also, Questing is not a Themepark only feature in my opinion.
We had quests in UO, it was quests we made ourselves, yet these were still quests designed for players to play uncover and complete.
In atlantic Shard we even carved Britannia on a Map in to different factions and made it in to an RvR game, all made by players.
Consequently this is also why as a Sanbox player, I tend to see Themeparks as Shallow, they do not give the player this range of action, and everything is predetermined and restricted.
- Duke Suraknar - Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
It's not the game you have to worry about changing, it's the player. There will always be the potential for increased revenue with a sandbox converting to themepark, always more paying customers on the other side of that fence. Might even get some people staying on after the covnersion, out of love for the title/flexibility as a gamer/etc.
Going back the other way, conversely, is almost always going to be a revenue drain to any developer. Not only because the pool of players that enjoy a sandbox is way smaller, but also because the majority of themepark players simply don't possess the ability to conceive of playing anything other than their chosen mindsink.
The simple fact is that if the typical MMO player was a quality individual, worthy of their chosen past time - one who possessed the versatility of a true gamer, rather than just being a fan of a single genre and nothing more - then the themepark -> sandbox conversion would be more than just a theory.
In PreCU SWG you could actually allocate all your points to Teras Kasi making you a level cap Teras kasi but nobody saw them as "level cap" because we never really knew what levels looked like on our char. After NGE I think we were level cap at 60 and I could see what my char was able to do. It was essentially my char when he only had 150 of his possible 250 points leveled up. Later we got to 90 but we were never able to mix and match and never had the powerfull chars we had PreCU. What NGE did was expose the level system that was always there and it couldn't hide the astronomical ners it hit us with.
Making a themepark a Sanbox would require you to hide what people knew and know. It wouldn't have the same desired effect. It would be too easy to exploit information in the post stages.
Most of the content wouldn't be an issue. Remove exper from quests, improve OS mob exper. Knowing your char, knowing your gear, that could never be takwen away.
Comments
Unfortunately, there's no profitability in making MMO's that require intelligence and imagination.
Although it is possible it is impractical. The one lesson that every MMO developer learned from the NGE was that changing the core gameplay elements of any game is pure suicide for your game. It will piss off your core subscribers to the point they will quit and it will scare off any potential customers by the extremely bad word of mouth being spread by what used to be your dedicated fan base. It would be pure stupidity for anyone to even try.
Bren
while(horse==dead)
{
beat();
}
The transition is probably better if you did it to a skill based game but not a game that is based on leveling your entire character.
I disagree. NGE failed because it enforced new mechanic on players that didn't want it. Had the NGE been for a brand new server only instead of the whole game, would it have been in this mess? Because only players that want that kind of gameplay would roll on that NGE server. But instead it was forced on all players.Philosophy of MMO Game Design
I'm not sure the question is valid in the context is SWG and the NGE. I don't think it can be said that the NGE changed SWG from a Sandbox to a Themepark. The class system replaced the skill system but the world remained pretty much the same.
I used to go and solo Rancors pre NGE, after the NGE you'd have to be high enough level to do that, or alternatively, take some friends, but there was nothing to stop you trying. The game was never on rails like a Themepark. You were still free to go where you wanted and do what you felt like.
But to answer the question can you turn a Themepark into a Sandbox, I'd say not without a massive amount of effort and it would probably still backfire. This is a fundamental core design decision and it goes in right at the start of the project. It's not something you mess with later. Just look at what happened when SWG introduced the holo grind, the community almost collapsed as everyone started dropping professions to unlock their jedi. All the well known artisans disappeared so the best armour and weapons became scarce. Just a bad idea.
But you aren't talking about this are you? Your OP was about taking an established Themepark game and turning it into a Sandbox. This would be just as disasterous as the NGE was for SWG. As for running two completely different games on different servers... You may as well make a whole new game from the ground up if your going to do that. What your purposing isn't quite as easy as changing a PvP flag or 'claiming' it's an 'RP' server. Once you've changed the core mechanics of the game it's something else entirely. This may even need a completely different server setup to run the game on.
Bren
while(horse==dead)
{
beat();
}
I think yes, it is possible, of course it is, almost everything is possible with proper resources time and money. It is programming.
But, as the old saying goes "Just because we Can do something, that does not necessarilly means that we must do that thing".
So...lets evaluate the Hypothetical scenario here, that WoW comes with apatch that Turns the game to a Sandbox...I personaly think that would be a great way for them to close down offices and lay off 80% of their staff.
But it would be Fun as hell to see and experience lml ...uhmmm!
***You are dead, your Tier 10 Gear set has been looted by Ipawnzoru***
Lol...we would be able to open our windows and hear the lamentations of 11 million souls.
Jokes asside, i think it could be possible even for a game like WoW but it would have to be introduced very gradually step by step if they really wanted to.
The bottom line is it may simply not be a good idea to do so, like it was the Case with SWG. They wanted more, they lost everything.
Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
I'll try it for WOW:
Reduce level-gap by increasing level one hitpoints and damage to endgame niveau. You still have to level up to get all your spells and skills.
Remove ready-to-use item drops. All items have to be crafted. The materials come from gathering professions and npc loot. Material for high-end items comes from raid-loot. Everything is tadeable, no BoP or BoE.
To repair your items you have to provide some of the materials that were required to build it.
Guilds can claim regions by completing quests and running dungeons there. The guild and its members then can build houses, armories, workshops etc. It is much more efficient to craft in a player built workshop than in a generic workshop in the capital.
Something like that? It doesn't even need full loot pvp.
NGE didnt totally turn SWG into a themepark game... Even post NGE it was very sandboxy compared to the MMOs today. It definitely butchered the game, but the main sandbox component it removed was the skill system that allowed you to be multiple professions. So yes, another game could easily add that in... But they would not be a sandbox just because of that 1 feature.
A game like WOW or its clones SWTOR/RIFT could never be a sandbox. They are just too far into development to have such a huge overhaul... Starting from scratch would be easier. I am pretty confident when I say that, but I am not a professional software engineer just a hobbyist.
Play as your fav retro characters: cnd-online.net. My site: www.lysle.net. Blog: creatingaworld.blogspot.com.
the biggest problem is that turning a sandbox into a themepark means dumbing down the game and utterly restricting it
thats trivial to do
the opposite would be adding a ton of complexity and removing all boundaries
hella hard to do
using an analogy, what would be easier for you to do? break a computer, or make a computer? there you have your answer
Well..you're first assuming NGE made SWG into a themepark MMO..it didn't. That was part of the problem, the switch was half-assed, unwanted and executed poorly.
What NGE did to SWG was make classes linear and dumb, while leaving the rest of the game largely untouched. So you had a sandbox framework, with themepark classes that were exceptionally limited in what they could do.
Without the necessary framework of a themepark mmo it failed disasterously and this is where I think the answer to your question is.
A Sandbox cannot be remade into a Themepark, and a Themepark cannot be remade into a sandbox, not without completely overhauling the entire game, and if a developer is planning on that, it'd probably be less work just to make a new game all together.
Possible - yes. You can change the code as much as You like. You can turn any MMO into a Notepad if You so desire. But what's the point?
Themepark features are what defines given themepark MMO. If You start taking them away and replacing the core mechanics with those of a sandbox game You pretty much create entirely new game that only happens to be set in same universe. You have to redesign every bit of it, create tons of new content that will fit the sadnbox ideology, wipe all the current progression... The only thing that could surive such procedure would be assets, like textures and model meshes.
It's simply much easier to add new rules to existing set than change everything from the ground. Game as an concept is set of rules. Whole design-studies are about the fact that You start with idea and thorugh iteration process You add new rules that limit the player thus creating what is called gameplay. Since it's iteration oriented process if You change one of early rules You imposed You need to change every rule in chain starting from that first one.
Sadly there is no mmotype.ini file with IsSandbox parameter that can be set to 1 or 0 depending on Your mood. :P
Really if you turned a themepark into a sandbox you will have created some sort of hybrid monster of awesomeness.
I mean, take SWG for example... You had classes, ie professions. Players could have chosen one and stuck with it and not mixed and matched at all. That would be 'linear' like the shittiest themepark.
SWG also had themepark quests. Not a ton but it had some quests where you are guided by the hand here and there and at the end you get a cool item and get to meet the emperor or something.
So all you really need to do is create a game that holds your hand, tells you what to do, gives you little rewards at the right frequency... ala a 'themepark'. But then it also has a whole sandbox to be discovered once you get bored of the handholding. This would obviously be the ultimate MMO, but to design a whole world full of quests and rewards etc and then balance that with player crafted items and sandbox features like city building, crafting, non-combat classes, etc... It would be a HUGE game. HUGE. Bigger than anything anyones even come close to making before.
Play as your fav retro characters: cnd-online.net. My site: www.lysle.net. Blog: creatingaworld.blogspot.com.
It is not as easy as you would think since add themepark feature is like adding law to a city. If you build a game with laws in place to make the game function in certain ways, but then take them away you break that fucton needing it to have a new fuction add to fix this. It would actually be much smarter as well as easier to make a game from scratch tht you crate the features complimenting your prefered style, then altering a game style that relies on stringent structures to keep the experince as it was entended. You could liken it to a building structure if you cut out or alter it without reenforcing or adjusting the structure you may just see the building collapse.
I agree. That's why sand park >theme park>sandboxPhilosophy of MMO Game Design
I do not agree intirelly. Saying that Classes from a themepark can be an interchangeable term woth Professions of a Sandbox game is not accurate.
A class in a themepark has a restricted associated Role attached to it. A profession from a Sanbox game does not have a restricted role, the player can assume the role they wish depending on the circumstance.
Also, Questing is not a Themepark only feature in my opinion.
We had quests in UO, it was quests we made ourselves, yet these were still quests designed for players to play uncover and complete.
In atlantic Shard we even carved Britannia on a Map in to different factions and made it in to an RvR game, all made by players.
Consequently this is also why as a Sanbox player, I tend to see Themeparks as Shallow, they do not give the player this range of action, and everything is predetermined and restricted.
Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
It's not the game you have to worry about changing, it's the player. There will always be the potential for increased revenue with a sandbox converting to themepark, always more paying customers on the other side of that fence. Might even get some people staying on after the covnersion, out of love for the title/flexibility as a gamer/etc.
Going back the other way, conversely, is almost always going to be a revenue drain to any developer. Not only because the pool of players that enjoy a sandbox is way smaller, but also because the majority of themepark players simply don't possess the ability to conceive of playing anything other than their chosen mindsink.
The simple fact is that if the typical MMO player was a quality individual, worthy of their chosen past time - one who possessed the versatility of a true gamer, rather than just being a fan of a single genre and nothing more - then the themepark -> sandbox conversion would be more than just a theory.
Simply put, no.
In PreCU SWG you could actually allocate all your points to Teras Kasi making you a level cap Teras kasi but nobody saw them as "level cap" because we never really knew what levels looked like on our char. After NGE I think we were level cap at 60 and I could see what my char was able to do. It was essentially my char when he only had 150 of his possible 250 points leveled up. Later we got to 90 but we were never able to mix and match and never had the powerfull chars we had PreCU. What NGE did was expose the level system that was always there and it couldn't hide the astronomical ners it hit us with.
Making a themepark a Sanbox would require you to hide what people knew and know. It wouldn't have the same desired effect. It would be too easy to exploit information in the post stages.
Most of the content wouldn't be an issue. Remove exper from quests, improve OS mob exper. Knowing your char, knowing your gear, that could never be takwen away.