Roma Victor is not a player driven economy

Jorev · July 2005

Most people prefer a player driven economy as has been proven by the economy poll on the main forum. RedBedlam should take notice.

The RV website states they will adjust game mechanics which determine how hard or easy it will be to earn in-game coin, based on how much in-game coin they sell directly. Periodically manipulating game mechanics in regards to how much in-game coin is sold directly by the devs, which is fabricated from thin air from outside the game environment, prevents a player driven economy from thriving.

Arremus · July 2005

Omfg, you are a psycho! Were you born in Waco or something?

Ok. This is beyond a joke.
We can all make up assumptions and just drag them into every post, regardless of topic, taking it on as a personal vendetta with no way to back it up.

So this is to everyone, who like me, is sick of this lunatic's obsessive postings.

Ignore him.
He is a troll, with a very unhealthy fascination with going on and on with this baseless bullshyte of his.
I am just as curious to see if this does or doesn't work as much as the next scheptical person, but this is just insane.

So I propose this thread just ends here.
Ignore it, ignore anything he posts about this from now on.

DON'T FEED THE TROLL. It is all he is wanting. Anger and outbursts. It's what feeds him, what makes him post the same dribble every day at every chance he can get.

Simple. Don't feed him. Don't respond. Just let this lunatic's obsession die.

Done.

knightknife · July 2005

Originally posted by Jorev
Most people prefer a player driven economy as has been proven by the economy poll on the main forum. RedBedlam should take notice.
The RV website states they will adjust game mechanics which determine how hard or easy it will be to earn in-game coin, based on how much in-game coin they sell directly. Periodically manipulating game mechanics in regards to how much in-game coin is sold directly by the devs, which is fabricated from thin air from outside the game environment, prevents a player driven economy from thriving.

Dude it seems like everything you say is a slam against Roma Victor. And how would you know? The game has not even come out yet. RedBedlam said they were going to do tons of tests to see if the system works and the amount you can get for paying extra is LIMITED! And who knows...maybe redbadlem will not even do this thing after all...that is why their is beta testing!

Sporn · July 2005

Ok so RB should follow a poll and change it's system? Really man get over it let the game be released lets see how it all works then this discussion might go somewhere until then it's just speculation on what you think is gonna happen. Posting this over and over again really takes any of your credibility.

knightknife · July 2005

Originally posted by Arremus
Omfg, you are a psycho! Were you born in Waco or something?Ok. This is beyond a joke.We can all make up assumptions and just drag them into every post, regardless of topic, taking it on as a personal vendetta with no way to back it up.So this is to everyone, who like me, is sick of this lunatic's obsessive postings.Ignore him.He is a troll, with a very unhealthy fascination with going on and on with this baseless bullshyte of his.I am just as curious to see if this does or doesn't work as much as the next scheptical person, but this is just insane.So I propose this thread just ends here.Ignore it, ignore anything he posts about this from now on.DON'T FEED THE TROLL. It is all he is wanting. Anger and outbursts. It's what feeds him, what makes him post the same dribble every day at every chance he can get.Simple. Don't feed him. Don't respond. Just let this lunatic's obsession die.Done.

I will quote this before it gets deleted...I couldnt resist not responding though lol. I enjoy a good arguement sometimes

Jorev · July 2005

It won't get deleted. The bias in moderation is obvious.

Calling someone a nutjob warrants a post deletion, but calling someone a retard or psycho does not.

Arremus · July 2005

Yeah I was suprised about that deletion too. Was going to post that it's the one time we agreed about something!

*scruffed Horney's hair* but he knows it!
*passes Horney his meds for the day*

Coins · July 2005

Players can always run a PC-only village in RV (especially barbarians). Then they outlaw Sesterces (because it is Roman currency ) and still they can compete with a normal village their same size because all the VERM does is redistribute wealth from the NPCs to the PCs.

There won't be inflation because, and the following is my assumption, the profits of the NPCs are destroyed or "magically transferred" to the PCs who donate. I think the limit to how much can be donated is how much profit from the NPCs can be destroyed. And what I mean by profit are the Sesterces the NPCs will not need to survive.

So the real victims here are those who cannot speak for themselves (at least not until RV is released, (GO RVing!))

horney · July 2005

Originally posted by Arremus
Yeah I was suprised about that deletion too. Was going to post that it's the one time we agreed about something!

*scruffed Horney's hair* but he knows it!
*passes Horney his meds for the day*

thanks man i needed that medication, the chemist closed early today . ribbit ribbit woof woof, does that actually work?? i dunno cya

an by th way it took me ages to do my hair today, thanks for messin it up *tut*

*EDIT* oh and by the way jorev, the only reason calling someone a nutjob gets deleted and calling someone a re***d or a psycho doesnt is because if youre going to swear you need to block some letters out so that little kiddies dont pick up new words. Im a little kiddy tho i dont see why it matters i already know every swearword im ever gonna use. But im just giving you a tip on how to swear at people on the forums enjoy!

Razorback · July 2005

YAWN!

anarchyart · July 2005

Originally posted by Jorev

Most people prefer a player driven economy as has been proven by the economy poll on the main forum. RedBedlam should take notice.
The RV website states they will adjust game mechanics which determine how hard or easy it will be to earn in-game coin, based on how much in-game coin they sell directly. Periodically manipulating game mechanics in regards to how much in-game coin is sold directly by the devs, which is fabricated from thin air from outside the game environment, prevents a player driven economy from thriving.

Total hogwash. Nothing is final yet, and we don't even know WHAT you will be able to purchase with the bought Sesterces yet. My guess is that it will be used for things that do not relate directly to the player economy, i.e. player housing, tabard desing and such. We will find out soon, but enough of your nonsense, it's clear you have a vendetta against this game. Why I have no idea, but it sucks.

PrJdGmr · July 2005

anarchyart, I've been looking though the RV forums since this contest started, and most of what they put on pricing and wages has been in Sesterces or Denarii...and if I'm correct, the value comparison was 4 Sesterces to 1 Denarii. The only difference in the names of the coins is the value, much like the difference in coins in real life. The coin will be used and earned throughout the normal course of the game, but how much everything will cost and what will be needed, we don't know for sure yet.

Jorev, according to what they say on the site ( this is my view of what they say, trusting they will be supporting the players instead of income, as you continue to believe they will ), they will either alter the ease of earning in-game coin so that people can live somewhat comfortably without buying in-game coin, or alter the amount of in-game coin that can be purchased so that people don't get an uber advantage for cointinuously purchasing in-game coin from the company.

Again, those are my views based on what the site says, and with belief in the good intentions of the company, while yours were without belief. Also, while this is what I believe, if there is a change of management somewhere along the line for any reason ( which I doubt ), then I'd probably start believing what you've been saying.

dragonemp · July 2005

There's no way a MMO in current reality can have REAL player driven economy because there're simply NOT enough players to simulate REAL economy, the best you can simulate is a tribe level item to item exchange echonomy, do you want that?

Razorback · July 2005

Not to mention the fact that Jorev's master plan totally discounts things that happen in every MMO every day.

If devs change the loot on a certain spawn after the game is launched... by Jorev's calculations this is "creating loot from thin air". He seems to subscribe to some bizarre theory where by once a game world is created it must be quarantined from all changes. Only things that the players can do in the environment can be allowed after launch. He also asserts that by a player or a bot swinging a sword a few times this somehow perfectly counter balances this anomoly with what he describes as "effort".

This is of course completely absurd and has never been the case in any MMO. RV is breaking no new ground with the VERM system in this respect. In fact it could be reasonably argued that they are limiting the amount of cash in the economy in a far more manageable and sustainable way with regards to inflation thatn any other MMO. For instance farmers in WoW and EQ2 generate infinite amounts of gold by repeating the same actions over and over. This cannot happen in RV, if it does the devs have already stated they will move to stop these things and the damaging inflationary effect they have.

Scondly by limiting the amount of trades NPC's can do based on the supply demand model the economy will again perform more truly as a player driven economy than any other MMO. In every other MMO NPC's generate their own limitless cash from this so called "thin air" day after day after day. I fail to see how anyone could be so blind, inexperienced or just plain stupid as to argue this point.

The totally unsustainable arguments Jorev puts forth are both poorly thought out and impossible to substantiate with any evidence of fact. They are based on supposition and guesswork regarding a system that is not even released.

One of these days he will muster the courage to tell us all why exactly he has this bent against RB/RV, until that day I guess we will all just have to try and deal with the suspense...

Wake me when something meaningfull happens...

Demson · July 2005

At a time it was mentioned that the NPC's will be under RB control. Basically the NPC's will be 'played' by the RB team.

That was a long time ago though. Not sure if that still stands. If it does - every in-game character will be accounted for.

Razorback · July 2005

No idea about that one...

Sounds a bit unrealistic... unless there are only gonna be like a dozen NPC's

But anyway... its all supposition at this stage...

As I have stated before though.. its important to keep this in perspective. It is the PLAYERS that will be "donating" "buying" the in game money whatever word you want to use. Ergo the economy is PLAYER driven.

Its not a tough concept to unerstand...

Demson · July 2005

They wouldn't be playing them like you play your character/avatar, but they would be steering their general behaviour. Let's say you have 10.000 enslaved claygatherers and 5000 potters in Britanny. 3000 players come along and start pottery. Now the slavemasters of the 10.000 claygatherers have a bigger market and can up their prices. Or they can up their production, meaning there will be a bigger market for claygathering tools as they will wear more quickly now.

I tried something similar in Neverwinter Nights with the toolset. The trick is to script realistic behaviour and give it an 'input hopper' to modify the outcome of their behaviour proces.

If RB will keep a certain level of control over their NPC's, I imagine that is how they will do it.

Kanoth · July 2005

We've reached Troll DefCon 5. Everyone please make your way to the evacuation points.

Scaris · July 2005

Originally posted by Razorback
Not to mention the fact that Jorev's master plan totally discounts things that happen in every MMO every day.
If devs change the loot on a certain spawn after the game is launched... by Jorev's calculations this is "creating loot from thin air". He seems to subscribe to some bizarre theory where by once a game world is created it must be quarantined from all changes. Only things that the players can do in the environment can be allowed after launch. He also asserts that by a player or a bot swinging a sword a few times this somehow perfectly counter balances this anomoly with what he describes as "effort".
This is of course completely absurd and has never been the case in any MMO. RV is breaking no new ground with the VERM system in this respect. In fact it could be reasonably argued that they are limiting the amount of cash in the economy in a far more manageable and sustainable way with regards to inflation thatn any other MMO. For instance farmers in WoW and EQ2 generate infinite amounts of gold by repeating the same actions over and over. This cannot happen in RV, if it does the devs have already stated they will move to stop these things and the damaging inflationary effect they have.
Scondly by limiting the amount of trades NPC's can do based on the supply demand model the economy will again perform more truly as a player driven economy than any other MMO. In every other MMO NPC's generate their own limitless cash from this so called "thin air" day after day after day. I fail to see how anyone could be so blind, inexperienced or just plain stupid as to argue this point.
The totally unsustainable arguments Jorev puts forth are both poorly thought out and impossible to substantiate with any evidence of fact. They are based on supposition and guesswork regarding a system that is not even released.
One of these days he will muster the courage to tell us all why exactly he has this bent against RB/RV, until that day I guess we will all just have to try and deal with the suspense...
Wake me when something meaningfull happens...

Well I have always said I have never played an MMO that had an economy yet. Thats mostly due to my beleif that in order for their to be an economy there has to be a finite amount of currency in the game everyone can earn from. No game that I know of currently has done this, therefore its a bogus economy. When a game actually controls the amount of in game currency, THEN you can start playing economics but as it stands right now anyone can acheive any amount of money they want with a simple time investment and without taking money from other places within the community.

Scaris · July 2005

Originally posted by Kanoth
We've reached Troll DefCon 5. Everyone please make your way to the evacuation points.

LOL! Run for Underground troll shelters?

Copeland · July 2005

Originally posted by Fadeus
Originally posted by Razorback
Not to mention the fact that Jorev's master plan totally discounts things that happen in every MMO every day.
If devs change the loot on a certain spawn after the game is launched... by Jorev's calculations this is "creating loot from thin air". He seems to subscribe to some bizarre theory where by once a game world is created it must be quarantined from all changes. Only things that the players can do in the environment can be allowed after launch. He also asserts that by a player or a bot swinging a sword a few times this somehow perfectly counter balances this anomoly with what he describes as "effort".
This is of course completely absurd and has never been the case in any MMO. RV is breaking no new ground with the VERM system in this respect. In fact it could be reasonably argued that they are limiting the amount of cash in the economy in a far more manageable and sustainable way with regards to inflation thatn any other MMO. For instance farmers in WoW and EQ2 generate infinite amounts of gold by repeating the same actions over and over. This cannot happen in RV, if it does the devs have already stated they will move to stop these things and the damaging inflationary effect they have.
Scondly by limiting the amount of trades NPC's can do based on the supply demand model the economy will again perform more truly as a player driven economy than any other MMO. In every other MMO NPC's generate their own limitless cash from this so called "thin air" day after day after day. I fail to see how anyone could be so blind, inexperienced or just plain stupid as to argue this point.
The totally unsustainable arguments Jorev puts forth are both poorly thought out and impossible to substantiate with any evidence of fact. They are based on supposition and guesswork regarding a system that is not even released.
One of these days he will muster the courage to tell us all why exactly he has this bent against RB/RV, until that day I guess we will all just have to try and deal with the suspense...
Wake me when something meaningfull happens...

Well I have always said I have never played an MMO that had an economy yet. Thats mostly due to my beleif that in order for their to be an economy there has to be a finite amount of currency in the game everyone can earn from. No game that I know of currently has done this, therefore its a bogus economy. When a game actually controls the amount of in game currency, THEN you can start playing economics but as it stands right now anyone can acheive any amount of money they want with a simple time investment and without taking money from other places within the community.

KK Fadeus time for Cope's class of Global Economics 101..

There isnt a finite amount of currency in the real world. A Government or for mmo purposes the dev's can pump money into the system whenever they wish. This is most obvious currently in Mexico. Currency devaluation is met with currency printing.

Currently if you strike oil, gold or diamonds voila you produce wealth and therefore anyone who wants to put in the time to find resources of value can also achieve any amount of money they want with a simple time investment and without taking money from other places.

This is the primary argument for capitalism and open markets. If you couldnt produce wealth out of the ground then there would be no way for the poor to ever advance unless by dumb luck aka the lottery. Without the production of new wealth all you're left with is an exploited class.
Sorry i have to play know it all yet again..

Scaris · July 2005

Originally posted by Copeland
Well I have always said I have never played an MMO that had an economy yet. Thats mostly due to my beleif that in order for their to be an economy there has to be a finite amount of currency in the game everyone can earn from. No game that I know of currently has done this, therefore its a bogus economy. When a game actually controls the amount of in game currency, THEN you can start playing economics but as it stands right now anyone can acheive any amount of money they want with a simple time investment and without taking money from other places within the community.
KK Fadeus time for Cope's class of Global Economics 101..There isnt a finite amount of currency in the real world. A Government or for mmo purposes the dev's can pump money into the system whenever they wish. This is most obvious currently in Mexico. Currency devaluation is met with currency printing. Sorry i have to play know it all yet again..

Improper comparison. The dev's do not control the money in just about any current MMO out there. The only thing that controls it to some degree is spawn rate when its farming mobs. In Eve you can sit and mine all day long and rake in the money.

Your using mexican economics as a basis for your arguement? I am sorry, you contradict yourself. Yes it is controlled, which means its FINITE. The amount can increase or decrease but its never fully unlimited like it is in a game. The poor and very few current control factors in released MMO's that are used to control the currency amount and rate are not even close to comparable to any worthy real world economy.

Copeland · July 2005

I'm sorry fadeus but you are completely wrong in this case. Go pick up an economics book :P

Mexico is just the most glaring case because of its recent economic history. Wealth is produced. It isnt finite. Currency reflects the wealth or current economic state of the issuing party.

I'm not arguing that MMO's have good economic systems. The fact is that most mmo's are being studied by economists as working models for run away inflation and currency devaluation. But the principles are accurate. Wealth can be produced.. the problem with MMO's is too much wealth can be produced.

Let me add that the system Roma Victor will employ should allow the dev's to play a similar role to the federal reserve board. They will have a tool that will allow them to try and maintain the value of the currency and add stability to the economy.

Scaris · July 2005

Originally posted by Copeland
I'm sorry fadeus but you are completely wrong in this case. Go pick up an economics book :PMexico is just the most glaring case because of its recent economic history. Wealth is produced. It isnt finite. Currency reflects the wealth or current economic state of the issuing party.I'm not arguing that MMO's have good economic systems. The fact is that most mmo's are being studied by economists as working models for run away inflation and currency devaluation. But the principles are accurate. Wealth can be produced.. the problem with MMO's is too much wealth can be produced.

Ok Cope, I am going to do what you usually doand say "I'm right, your wrong and thats the end of the discussion."

I am going to head over to the mint now and ask them to print me up a fresh batch of $20's.

Copeland · July 2005

Originally posted by Fadeus
Originally posted by Copeland
I'm sorry fadeus but you are completely wrong in this case. Go pick up an economics book :PMexico is just the most glaring case because of its recent economic history. Wealth is produced. It isnt finite. Currency reflects the wealth or current economic state of the issuing party.I'm not arguing that MMO's have good economic systems. The fact is that most mmo's are being studied by economists as working models for run away inflation and currency devaluation. But the principles are accurate. Wealth can be produced.. the problem with MMO's is too much wealth can be produced.

Ok Cope, I am going to do what you usually doand say "I'm right, your wrong and thats the end of the discussion."

I am going to head over to the mint now and ask them to print me up a fresh batch of $20's.

If you try the North Korean mint you might actually get some :P

They wont be real but nobody can tell the difference anyway.

Copeland · July 2005

BTW Jorev is completely accurate in saying RV will not be a player driven economy. Players will have an impact but the core of the economy belongs to the devs in this game.

I don't see this as a slam against the game at all. The economy in RV should be stable. You shouldn't see the run away inflation that you see in every other mmorpg out there.

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