@KingJiggly, it seems you didn't get at all what I was talking about. It's not about a perfect build, but a balanced build, which means no gimmick build (like kappa/blood/glyph of sacrifice-whatever it's called spike). A balanced build is a build that can literally counter any and everything, if played well. Also, I wrote that part about my retirement, because I don't know how pvp currently is and wanted to give a reason for that. I explicitely wanted to leave the current metagame out of my contribution.
If you knew the GW community then you'd also know that the vast majority of players simply copy-paste builds from pvxwiki or whatever the source is. The very minor part actually creates new builds, which are copied one someone wins an aT or maT with that build.
"Another thing is when you say they focused on making PvE better... last time I checked PvP nd PvE skills were often different."
I didn't say that. I said that they get the majority of their money from selling pve content!
Also, I don't count PvEvP (JQ, FA) as high level pvp.
"If all the skills in a build can counter another build, the skill design seems quite fair. Just because your to lazy to excape the bubble of "Grenth Derv" and try something new, that is your fault, not mine. Nor does it make it unfair, for me anyway."
No, it doesn't. Just because you CAN counter something, doesn't make it easy to counter or balanced. Did you ever play build wars at all? Also I don't mind Grenth Dervish. He is probably the weakest of all forms.
Read my lines again and think about them first, please.
Getting back to the OT, there's no such thing as the holy trinity in GW2, there isn't even a trinity, because damage, control and support roles don't depend on each other. Everyone's self heal is much stronger than any allied healing spell and you can't tank by using a skill. Hence there is no dependency in the game, only teamwork.
Edit:
Had to put some stuff in. You are either a troll or don't know the game very well. (@Jiggly)
Getting back to the OT, there's no such thing as the holy trinity in GW2, there isn't even a trinity, because damage, control and support roles don't depend on each other. Everyone's self heal is much stronger than any allied healing spell and you can't tank by using a skill. Hence there is no dependency in the game, only teamwork.
Edit:
Had to put some stuff in. You are either a troll or don't know the game very well. (@Jiggly)
Huh? Well it seems you do know a little something about Guild Wars 2, which makes it harder to understand why you constantly go into a rant about Guild Wars 1. ArenaNet know themselves that the GW1 PvP scene was flawed, in several ways, which is why they pretty much scrapped every mechanic of the game in favour of what they put in place. It is why there is no dual spec. It's to reduce the number of variables, thus granting each profession with greater focus and making the PvP easier to balance.
Lets just get the great white Yeti out of the room shall we? All of this talk about GW2 having a holy trinity are from people who want it to have a holy trinity so when their flavor of the month themepark loses its luster they can scamper over here do the end game raiding loot tables. I'm sure there are pro Raiders on the GW2 forums right now demanding end game raid content and phat lootz. Its Wishful Thinking is what it is. Their holding on to the holy trinity like a pacifier hoping GW2 is another WOW clone.
@KingJiggly, it seems you didn't get at all what I was talking about. It's not about a perfect build, but a balanced build, which means no gimmick build (like kappa/blood/glyph of sacrifice-whatever it's called spike). A balanced build is a build that can literally counter any and everything, if played well. Also, I wrote that part about my retirement, because I don't know how pvp currently is and wanted to give a reason for that. I explicitely wanted to leave the current metagame out of my contribution.
If you knew the GW community then you'd also know that the vast majority of players simply copy-paste builds from pvxwiki or whatever the source is. The very minor part actually creates new builds, which are copied one someone wins an aT or maT with that build.
"Another thing is when you say they focused on making PvE better... last time I checked PvP nd PvE skills were often different."
I didn't say that. I said that they get the majority of their money from selling pve content!
Also, I don't count PvEvP (JQ, FA) as high level pvp.
"If all the skills in a build can counter another build, the skill design seems quite fair. Just because your to lazy to excape the bubble of "Grenth Derv" and try something new, that is your fault, not mine. Nor does it make it unfair, for me anyway."
No, it doesn't. Just because you CAN counter something, doesn't make it easy to counter or balanced. Did you ever play build wars at all? Also I don't mind Grenth Dervish. He is probably the weakest of all forms.
Read my lines again and think about them first, please.
Getting back to the OT, there's no such thing as the holy trinity in GW2, there isn't even a trinity, because damage, control and support roles don't depend on each other. Everyone's self heal is much stronger than any allied healing spell and you can't tank by using a skill. Hence there is no dependency in the game, only teamwork.
Edit:
Had to put some stuff in. You are either a troll or don't know the game very well. (@Jiggly)
Are you talking about a balanced PvP or a build? Earlier, you were saying PvP as a whole was unfair. Now, while there are gimmick builds, such as blind ele, they again can be countered by.. Mes, Enchantment Removal (Most profs can do that, necro has one skill that can remove like 10), or some sort of condition remover/ skill. You completely move away from saying "Anet is bad a skill balance" to there are builds that counter everything, even though this obviously isn't true if there is a FOTM! Because, if there were one of these "Balance Builds" there wouldn't be one, proving Anet does have good skill balance/ proffesion balance.
I agree with you on people using pvx wiki to their advantage for builds. However, often times as the metagame change (and it often does, even more now with the monthly flux) they often become either obsolete... heck pvx still has to update builds since the changes to the Dervs. Anyone with a half capable mind would be able to see pvx wiki is a) outdated b) rarely fixed by its own members and c) the game simply doesn't have the population anymore that cares, beuase as you said earlier all the "old players" left because they refuse to change, or add one skill to change help their team, which leaves me happy that they are gone.
Finally, yes there is a trinity. They do rely on one another. If you don't control the area, how can you support people? If you have no damage, how can you control the area? If you don't support people, How can you control AND grow push out from the area you are in?
And caling me a troll or "not knowing the game real well" when you yourself have said you didn't know the CURRENT METAGAME is hypocritical.
FotM? Haven't heard that term in a long time, like back in '07. Just as Bloodspike has long gone into the archives. PvX moved, toegether with guildwiki from wikia to another hoster, I suspect you're looking at the abandonned remains on Wikia.
The conventional trinity professions/classes as the basis of a team is not in GW2, there's no efficient heal-other and no character can absorb high damage for long. Control, damage and support - generalized concepts of the trinity - are availabel to all professions and for a team, to be succesful all it's members will have to use their abiltiies and be flexible and take turns controlling and damaging foes and supporting themselves and their team.
"And caling me a troll or "not knowing the game real well" when you yourself have said you didn't know the CURRENT METAGAME is hypocritical."
I was calling you a troll, because you didn't read what I wrote, but seemingly interpreted my words. Well, and obviously lacked knowledge of a big part of GW's history.
"Huh? Well it seems you do know a little something about Guild Wars 2, which makes it harder to understand why you constantly go into a rant about Guild Wars 1. "
I don't rant about GW1, I support my opinion by stating my experience and obvious movement within game balance design. Additionally, I use them as analogies for the sequel, which is made by the same people. So concerns are valid unless they replaced people's mind.
"It is why there is no dual spec. It's to reduce the number of variables, thus granting each profession with greater focus and making the PvP easier to balance."
Read my post about game complexity. It is much higher than you'd think.
With more then 50 edits today (I estimate 70-80), and about 500 since the 23th, I think 'outdated' is likely a misclassification. You are entitled to your opinions but calling GW-PvX 'misleading' while you yourself are referring to the long outdated 'blood-spike' as an example of 'gimmicks' and 'unbalanced PvP' in Guildwars-1 is itself misleading.
I am myself no fan of GW-PvX but I thought that was over-the-top.
Originally posted by Magnetia
People seem to be under the illusion that the holy trinity has been eliminated but this is simply not true. They are only getting rid of the necessity of it. ..
You might be confusing GW2 with GW1, it was Guildwars 1 which didn't need holy-trinity teams, but it still allowed it.
With more then 50 edits today (I estimate 70-80), and about 500 since the 23th, I think 'outdated' is likely a misclassification. You are entitled to your opinions but calling GW-PvX 'misleading' while you yourself are referring to the long outdated 'blood-spike' as an example of 'gimmicks' and 'unbalanced PvP' in Guildwars-1 is itself misleading.
I am myself no fan of GW-PvX but I thought that was over-the-top.
Originally posted by Magnetia
People seem to be under the illusion that the holy trinity has been eliminated but this is simply not true. They are only getting rid of the necessity of it. ..
You might be confusing GW2 with GW1, it was Guildwars 1 which didn't need holy-trinity teams, but it still allowed it.
Yeah, I am sorry for this confusion. I used bspike as one example for gimmick builds in the past, which went untouched for what, 6 years? It's probably my fault, because I sometimes want to tell more and actually write less.
However this long life span of a pretty simple build by build design tells you either how incompetent the balance team is or how important pvp balance was for such a long time or that the game itself is not that balanced as people claim it to be. It's improved quite a bit with the introduction of the TK, though.
The source I posted can be misleading, because like wikipedia, information can be wrong or used for different purposes.
----
In the last part, you raise a good point. GW1 had no holy trinity aswell. You could even argue that the term trinity is more important in GW2 than it ever was in GW1. It is possible to clear an elite area in GW1 with Mesmers and N/R without any tank or be very successful without ever tanking damage in GvG. GW1, just like GW2, doesn't have an aggro system.
Bloodspike was nerfed years ago, it sounds like you overrate what is left of 'bloodspike'. It is, after all, usually not their intention to nerf a build or concept completely out of the game, usually it's effectiveness is reduced (nerfed) when it is overpowered or sees too much play to the exclusion of other options.
Bloodspike was nerfed years ago, it sounds like you overrate what is left of 'bloodspike'. It is, after all, usually not their intention to nerf a build or concept completely out of the game, usually it's effectiveness is reduced (nerfed) when it is overpowered or sees too much play to the exclusion of other options.
That's not that far away (years) and it still saw play until more powerful gimmick builds like E/P-Spike got popular.
Did you ever watch all the fame farming going on on special events or well, anytime around the year with these spikes?
I am not saying everything is bad and should be nerfed into oblivion as soon as it's effective, but some builds deserve to be smiter's booned as AN is obviously not able to keep the balance. They are quite good at shifting things around, though.
The game really doesnt have a trinity. It will just be a bit more difficult if you dont have those 3 classes. They arent absolutley necessary. Personally i was somewhat a fan of the trinity because you always new what you were going to do at all times. Not having the holy trinity will make the game more fun though because you need to find ways to fit all professions together.
Comments
@KingJiggly, it seems you didn't get at all what I was talking about. It's not about a perfect build, but a balanced build, which means no gimmick build (like kappa/blood/glyph of sacrifice-whatever it's called spike). A balanced build is a build that can literally counter any and everything, if played well. Also, I wrote that part about my retirement, because I don't know how pvp currently is and wanted to give a reason for that. I explicitely wanted to leave the current metagame out of my contribution.
If you knew the GW community then you'd also know that the vast majority of players simply copy-paste builds from pvxwiki or whatever the source is. The very minor part actually creates new builds, which are copied one someone wins an aT or maT with that build.
"Another thing is when you say they focused on making PvE better... last time I checked PvP nd PvE skills were often different."
I didn't say that. I said that they get the majority of their money from selling pve content!
Also, I don't count PvEvP (JQ, FA) as high level pvp.
"If all the skills in a build can counter another build, the skill design seems quite fair. Just because your to lazy to excape the bubble of "Grenth Derv" and try something new, that is your fault, not mine. Nor does it make it unfair, for me anyway."
No, it doesn't. Just because you CAN counter something, doesn't make it easy to counter or balanced. Did you ever play build wars at all? Also I don't mind Grenth Dervish. He is probably the weakest of all forms.
Read my lines again and think about them first, please.
Getting back to the OT, there's no such thing as the holy trinity in GW2, there isn't even a trinity, because damage, control and support roles don't depend on each other. Everyone's self heal is much stronger than any allied healing spell and you can't tank by using a skill. Hence there is no dependency in the game, only teamwork.
Edit:
Had to put some stuff in. You are either a troll or don't know the game very well. (@Jiggly)
Huh? Well it seems you do know a little something about Guild Wars 2, which makes it harder to understand why you constantly go into a rant about Guild Wars 1. ArenaNet know themselves that the GW1 PvP scene was flawed, in several ways, which is why they pretty much scrapped every mechanic of the game in favour of what they put in place. It is why there is no dual spec. It's to reduce the number of variables, thus granting each profession with greater focus and making the PvP easier to balance.
Lets just get the great white Yeti out of the room shall we? All of this talk about GW2 having a holy trinity are from people who want it to have a holy trinity so when their flavor of the month themepark loses its luster they can scamper over here do the end game raiding loot tables. I'm sure there are pro Raiders on the GW2 forums right now demanding end game raid content and phat lootz. Its Wishful Thinking is what it is. Their holding on to the holy trinity like a pacifier hoping GW2 is another WOW clone.
Are you talking about a balanced PvP or a build? Earlier, you were saying PvP as a whole was unfair. Now, while there are gimmick builds, such as blind ele, they again can be countered by.. Mes, Enchantment Removal (Most profs can do that, necro has one skill that can remove like 10), or some sort of condition remover/ skill. You completely move away from saying "Anet is bad a skill balance" to there are builds that counter everything, even though this obviously isn't true if there is a FOTM! Because, if there were one of these "Balance Builds" there wouldn't be one, proving Anet does have good skill balance/ proffesion balance.
I agree with you on people using pvx wiki to their advantage for builds. However, often times as the metagame change (and it often does, even more now with the monthly flux) they often become either obsolete... heck pvx still has to update builds since the changes to the Dervs. Anyone with a half capable mind would be able to see pvx wiki is a) outdated b) rarely fixed by its own members and c) the game simply doesn't have the population anymore that cares, beuase as you said earlier all the "old players" left because they refuse to change, or add one skill to change help their team, which leaves me happy that they are gone.
Finally, yes there is a trinity. They do rely on one another. If you don't control the area, how can you support people? If you have no damage, how can you control the area? If you don't support people, How can you control AND grow push out from the area you are in?
And caling me a troll or "not knowing the game real well" when you yourself have said you didn't know the CURRENT METAGAME is hypocritical.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/innovation
FotM? Haven't heard that term in a long time, like back in '07. Just as Bloodspike has long gone into the archives. PvX moved, toegether with guildwiki from wikia to another hoster, I suspect you're looking at the abandonned remains on Wikia.
The conventional trinity professions/classes as the basis of a team is not in GW2, there's no efficient heal-other and no character can absorb high damage for long. Control, damage and support - generalized concepts of the trinity - are availabel to all professions and for a team, to be succesful all it's members will have to use their abiltiies and be flexible and take turns controlling and damaging foes and supporting themselves and their team.
@KingJiggly
"Are you talking about a balanced PvP or a build?
I am talking about "the" balanced build.
"And caling me a troll or "not knowing the game real well" when you yourself have said you didn't know the CURRENT METAGAME is hypocritical."
I was calling you a troll, because you didn't read what I wrote, but seemingly interpreted my words. Well, and obviously lacked knowledge of a big part of GW's history.
@Master10K ;
"Huh? Well it seems you do know a little something about Guild Wars 2, which makes it harder to understand why you constantly go into a rant about Guild Wars 1. "
I don't rant about GW1, I support my opinion by stating my experience and obvious movement within game balance design. Additionally, I use them as analogies for the sequel, which is made by the same people. So concerns are valid unless they replaced people's mind.
"It is why there is no dual spec. It's to reduce the number of variables, thus granting each profession with greater focus and making the PvP easier to balance."
Read my post about game complexity. It is much higher than you'd think.
@Malaksbane
"FotM? Haven't heard that term in a long time, like back in '07."
Yeah, nowadays it's just called build wars and people usually watch obs extensively to copy paste builds. It is easy enough.
People watch as observer for the tactics and gameplay, not for the builds, those are easily made or found on PvX.
I thought they were outdated and/or misleading.
I am taling about this one:
http://www.gwpvx.com/PvX_wiki
With more then 50 edits today (I estimate 70-80), and about 500 since the 23th, I think 'outdated' is likely a misclassification. You are entitled to your opinions but calling GW-PvX 'misleading' while you yourself are referring to the long outdated 'blood-spike' as an example of 'gimmicks' and 'unbalanced PvP' in Guildwars-1 is itself misleading.
I am myself no fan of GW-PvX but I thought that was over-the-top.
You might be confusing GW2 with GW1, it was Guildwars 1 which didn't need holy-trinity teams, but it still allowed it.
Yeah, I am sorry for this confusion. I used bspike as one example for gimmick builds in the past, which went untouched for what, 6 years? It's probably my fault, because I sometimes want to tell more and actually write less.
However this long life span of a pretty simple build by build design tells you either how incompetent the balance team is or how important pvp balance was for such a long time or that the game itself is not that balanced as people claim it to be. It's improved quite a bit with the introduction of the TK, though.
The source I posted can be misleading, because like wikipedia, information can be wrong or used for different purposes.
----
In the last part, you raise a good point. GW1 had no holy trinity aswell. You could even argue that the term trinity is more important in GW2 than it ever was in GW1. It is possible to clear an elite area in GW1 with Mesmers and N/R without any tank or be very successful without ever tanking damage in GvG. GW1, just like GW2, doesn't have an aggro system.
Bloodspike was nerfed years ago, it sounds like you overrate what is left of 'bloodspike'. It is, after all, usually not their intention to nerf a build or concept completely out of the game, usually it's effectiveness is reduced (nerfed) when it is overpowered or sees too much play to the exclusion of other options.
The (indirect) nerf happened on January 28, 2010, when RoF and other skills countered life steal. Source: http://www.gw-memorial.net/skills/Monk/195-Reversal_of_Fortune
That's not that far away (years) and it still saw play until more powerful gimmick builds like E/P-Spike got popular.
Did you ever watch all the fame farming going on on special events or well, anytime around the year with these spikes?
I am not saying everything is bad and should be nerfed into oblivion as soon as it's effective, but some builds deserve to be smiter's booned as AN is obviously not able to keep the balance. They are quite good at shifting things around, though.
The game really doesnt have a trinity. It will just be a bit more difficult if you dont have those 3 classes. They arent absolutley necessary. Personally i was somewhat a fan of the trinity because you always new what you were going to do at all times. Not having the holy trinity will make the game more fun though because you need to find ways to fit all professions together.