What was the Combat Upgrade?

knightknife · July 2005

What was the combat upgrade? I was thinking about getting this game but people keep saying the combat upgrade sucks...what was the game like before it and what did it change?

Leigord · July 2005

Well I've been back to the game for about a week now and I like it. It added a lvl system and changed the way the different classes work slightly. I really think it helped balance the classes and it did make combat more fun. It does have it's problems I guess but overall it's much better than before.

Check the SWG homepage and read up there, you'll be glad you did. Coming back it's a good game and well worth the money with the new upgrades, quests, and space content.

Good luck

Erillion · July 2005

Combat Upgrade completely changed combat. Thats what many people did not like, especially veterans. New players and old players that left SWG in 2003/2004 for a while usually like new combat system more than those veterans.

Game before combat revamp ...

wait 30 min to find a doctor, get a god mode buff, solo 95 % of game content, get bored out of your mind, stop playing (unless you DONT grind and just have fun in a great game for the last 2 years). PvP highly unbalanced (only hit against mind were important and you killed yourself doing specials with your weapons as it deducted points from health !!)

Now :

Game more dangerous, soloing slower and high end content needs group, new combat roles, buff is nice but not required, more profession balance between the 32 normal professions (excluding Jedi which are by definition not balanced)

http://starwarsgalaxies.station.sony.com/combat_upgrade/

Have fun

Erillion

Scorpes · July 2005

its something that bring out the swg lemmings in droves.

Fignar · July 2005

It was something they implemented to make the game simpler for new players. They changed not only the combat but affected all non combat crafting professions and basically destroyed what once was one of the most original and innovative crafting systems about. They managed to destory the creativity of the armorsmiths and weaponsmiths for that matter. Removed crafting from the doctor professions and turned the game into a poor EQ2/WOW clone. Those who say it was to stop soloing etc are wrong you can still solo anything in the game its just slightly harder. I know this because one of my friends is the biggest looter on the Chimaera server and uses his Jedi and normal profession combination to solo the very high end mobs.

They introduced an unrealistic lvl system which slowed combat down and basically made gaining a mastery in a profession even more tedious. I played the game for almost 2 years up until the CU hit but the weeks leading up to the CU and the arrogance shown by the developers in the 2 weeks leading up to the CU going live by removing correspondents who made a stand for their professions; the removal of post highlighting the distate towards how they were going about the CU helped me make my mind up and leave. They lost 2 weeks of data on the server i played on due poor implementation when the CU went up which meant weeks of crafting progress lost, experience for other players, people who gained millions of credits and skill tapes all lost which was enough for them to leave.

Overall lots of veteran players left but due to SW fan boys who came in due to EP3 and those who liked the CU staying (combat minded players) those developers have kept their jobs but i will never play another SOE game again. SWG was once a brilliant and orginal game which could have been so much more but was dumbed down for the masses to get on the band wagon and pull back players they lost to other MMORPGS.

carnikar · July 2005

Originally posted by Erillion

Combat Upgrade completely changed combat. Thats what many people did not like, especially veterans. New players and old players that left SWG in 2003/2004 for a while usually like new combat system more than those veterans.
Game before combat revamp ...
wait 30 min to find a doctor, get a god mode buff, solo 95 % of game content, get bored out of your mind, stop playing (unless you DONT grind and just have fun in a great game for the last 2 years). PvP highly unbalanced (only hit against mind were important and you killed yourself doing specials with your weapons as it deducted points from health !!)
Now :
Game more dangerous, soloing slower and high end content needs group, new combat roles, buff is nice but not required, more profession balance between the 32 normal professions (excluding Jedi which are by definition not balanced)
http://starwarsgalaxies.station.sony.com/combat_upgrade/
Have fun
Erillion

I would have to say you are slightly off base one describing the now and then or at least forgeting that pre-CU profesions that were involved in crafting and entrantiment actualy had roles in commbat?

It's easy to say that bufs were bad in the old system but can you say that the dumbed down CU commbat is more engaging than the old style combat, were, at least in PVE, you had planty of tactical aproaches to take down a mob. Now dont get me wrrong, iam not saying that buffs and 80-90% arrmor were a good thing but those were elemnts of SEO's bad/rushed desicions due to SWG being released befeor it should have been.

Buffs, armor, limited PVP choices were all due to SEO's desicions, even tough they tried to blame the players like the did concering bufs and armor, yet those were elemnts that could have been solved given enough time but all we got was holocorns for christmas tough i must addmit it was something that give the game life for few more months.

Many of us "veterans" left the game becouse we saw trough the BS that the devs were trying to pull on us, killing buffs is all fine and dandy but craming a level system, whit litle to no testing, was something that just screamed of " hey we wanted to balance the game but its to darned hard so we will just trow something in that we know works and we dont have to do much work balancing it. Ohh and wile we are at it lets just take the social interaction asspects from the game and rpelace them whit 8 person groups"

Netzz · July 2005

This is the best description of the CU I have seen:

Orginally posted by Zorron

The way the current implementation of the CU is made up has several glaring variances from the previously released info - in that there was one central item that I have identified has caused the majority of the imbalances and problems encountered with the CU.

Putting a 'level' system on top of a skill based system.

This was not in the original CU documentation released on 03/31/05, and data from public statements of sources inside the CU 'sandbox' scheme (without violating NDA) have confirmed that it was never discussed with them to the degree it was implemented.

Herein I will list the worst issues reported about the CU and show that they are all tied directly to the 'level system' implementation that was added to the functional design of the CU.

1. Crafter Death - Crafters are 1 shotted by every aggro mob on every starter planet. The fragility of crafter characters at 'combat level' 1 is extreme. Surveying alone is impossible since spawns will appear under vehicles in motion and mobs will kill crafters in less than 2 seconds.

The ability to at least run away has been removed - this makes crafters unable to function at a basic level.

The 'level' system has a damage multiplier. You will see this in further points. This damage multiplier makes anything higher level than you equivalent to instant death. Five levels above you will always kill you. Again, this point will be repeated.

Since crafters will not have any combat rating unless they become a hybrid and drop pure crafting, they will always take max damage.

Furthermore, every animal will use the damage multiplier against a base value. There is no such thing, therefore, as a 'safe' enemy for crafters.

This is the result of the 'level' system.

Before, each mob had different resists and damage ranges. They had a "threat" level, which was based on how high their offensive and defensive values were. Under the old system, that was the basis of the /con result.

This threat level has NO relationship to the current 'combat level' system, no matter what the devs claim in the HOC chat.

The threat level was an EVALUATION of an existing mob.

A 'combat level' is a MODIFICATION of a base value mob "angry bag" put into whatever 'skin' is appropriate, i.e, a level 34 dune lizard is the same as a level 34 peko peko.

The new COMBAT LEVEL defines the offensive and defensive values - not the other way around.

This is an important distinction, and is critical to understanding the conclusion about the combat level system and why it was added to the CU at such a late date.

2. XP gains and lack of same: A significant number of people are finding odd results from attacking mobs slightly below their level and higher - as in getting little to no XP. The response of the devs is to have people focus on just fighting even leveled mobs.

The real question is: Why was the XP variance put in the CU in the first place?

XP gains or rates of gains was NEVER addressed as a concern in the Combat Upgrade. It did not affect combat in any way, shape, or form in PVP, nor were there "problems" about the flavor of combat that were caused by XP being gained by anything you defeated.

It was never an issue at all.

However, in 'level' based systems, the paradigm is that LEVEL DETERMINES XP AT ALL TIMES.

In a skill based system, mobs are worth what they are worth - period.

The XP dilemma is a byproduct of the introduction of the level based combat overlay - and that is it.

It offers NO positive effects to the pace of combat, the usability and distinction of all combat professions, the tactical nature of combat - in fact, it hinders advancement. It does nothing that the CU was written to do - at all. It has no purpose.

It has nothing to do with lessening the effects of overpowered buffs and armor and does nothing to address ANY SINGLE ITEM mentioned in the CU Documentation.

It is, in fact, the unavoidable side effect of the use of the level system. It was NEVER a goal of the CU and is present ONLY because a level system was introduced.

The reason why it was is the kicker.

3. Certifications of weapons being based on level - Many people think that this was INTENDED. It was not.

This was a FIX put in to deal with the fact that the level system made xp vanish from 'low level' mobs for people grinding their 2nd elite combat prof. The 'level' system FORCED the removal of certs tied to skills. Else, a TKM attempting to grind pistols would never be able to do so as long as the level system was in place - he couldn't kill anything ever that gave him Pistol XP.

So they pulled pistols (and all other weapons) from skill boxes and tied them to 'combat levels' as a work around for this unplanned-for circumstance. They did this with all the weapons at first, then came back to address the idea of a TKM/Ranger using a beam rifle. So a very few 'iconic' weapons were tied to skill boxes.

This is a cheat.

The original design of the CU, again, had NOTHING in it about un-latching the weapons from skill boxes.

It was because - simply put - The CU Was Never To Be Level Based.

XP was therefore NEVER supposed To Be 'Gated' to mob level comparisons.

Crafters Were Never Supposed to be unable to walk outside.

Weapons Were Never to be "floating" - they were supposed to be ADDITIVE*

*(Commando/Rifleman was supposed to be able to use a beam weapon with a rifle special - ADDITIVE as in Ranged do ranged - melee does melee and the certs ADD)

So - if you've read this far - you're asking yourself "Why the hell did they put in the level system? What POSSIBLE use could it be?"

Mobs. Mobs, deadlines, and stats.

Converting all the existing mobs to be balanced before May 5th was impossible. The only explanation is that they imposed the level system on the mobs because a level system makes the generation of mobs EASY.

You have 2 types of mobs - Humanoid and Non-Humanoid. You have 2 types of each of those - melee only, and ranged primary/melee secondary.

These make each mob into an "angry bag" that can have a skin thrown on it, and the level system DEFINES THE DAMAGE DONE AT ALL TIMES TO ANYONE.

Quick. Easy. Fast.

No coding 350 different 'species' each with different xp values, resists, and attack values (not to mention individual, named mobs). Just a bag with a level, attack subroutine, and a skin on it. Damage multipliers (remember those?) will automatically generate "challenge". Damage mitigation due to level differences will SIMULATE weakening defenses.

Bam. Done.

Quick. Easy. Fast.

And WORTHLESS.

That's what they did. That's the MAIN problem with the CU.

Take out the level system - leaving everything else in - and you have a viable product. You have crafters able to run away from things even without buffs and armor

You have people able to still use the weapons they expect to use.

And you won't encounter people UNABLE to progress in their profession.

You have to do one thing though - you have to work on mobs and MAKE THEM WORK RIGHT.

It takes time which they claim they don't have.

The Level system is like putting wallpaper over a broken window.

It's a cheap easy and BAD fix that made more problems than they understood.

Without it, the CU would work.

With it, SWG is dead.

Pretty much says it all.

Erillion · July 2005

Originally posted by carnikar

I would have to say you are slightly off base one describing the now and then or at least forgeting that pre-CU profesions that were involved in crafting and entrantiment actualy had roles in commbat?
--> Being a 2+ years veteran I have not forgotten that. Crafters in combat ... well, i AM a crafter fighter hybrid and my specials for crowd control have an important role in my group even now, so THAT has not changed. Pure entertainers had not a lot to do in the battlefield now and then and if an entertainer really wants to fight (s)he can always go hybrid. I would not call an entertainer dancing in a camp "taking part in combat".
It's easy to say that bufs were bad in the old system but can you say that the dumbed down CU commbat is more engaging than the old style combat, were, at least in PVE, you had planty of tactical aproaches to take down a mob.
--> WOOT ? Tactical approaches in pre-Cu ? Such as what ? Spam base attack and MAYBE a spin special once in a while, being encased in normed 85 % composite armor wielding a Krayt power hammer and not getting hit due to your FOTM stacker template after having gotten a god-mode buff by a doc on top of your brandy and muon stupor ? Watching TV in the meantime or getting a drink and reading the newspaper.
--> After CU you have to take care and cant just aggro half the planet and kill it with a few spin attacks.
Now dont get me wrrong, iam not saying that buffs and 80-90% arrmor were a good thing but those were elemnts of SEO's bad/rushed desicions due to SWG being released befeor it should have been.
--> I blame SOE marketing, not their coders.
Buffs, armor, limited PVP choices were all due to SEO's desicions, even tough they tried to blame the players like the did concering bufs and armor, yet those were elemnts that could have been solved given enough time but all we got was holocorns for christmas tough i must addmit it was something that give the game life for few more months.
--> Holocron insanity of 2004 was for me personally the "valley of despair" for SWG. The uproar over CU could not compare to that IMHO. I have lost too many in game friends to that stupid, senseless, mind numbing boring, mad grind to Jedi via holocron. All victims of burnout syndrome.
Many of us "veterans" left the game becouse we saw trough the BS that the devs were trying to pull on us, killing buffs is all fine and dandy but craming a level system, whit litle to no testing, was something that just screamed of " hey we wanted to balance the game
--> More like ... we want to balance the game, but hey, there is that movie coming out and neither disease nor high water will keep our markting department from pushing it onto the shelves, no matter if it looks like "Pong Reloaded" because they know that they will get a 100 k more subscribers if the game is ready when the movie is in the theatres, while losing maybe 10-20 k veterans, of which many will come back within the next 6 months.
--> I curse SOE sometimes for the decisions they make, but on the other hand I understand WHY they do some of the things they do. SOE is not in it for charity, this is business, not fun and gaming.
but its to darned hard so we will just trow something in that we know works and we dont have to do much work balancing it. Ohh and wile we are at it lets just take the social interaction asspects from the game and rpelace them whit 8 person groups"
--> 8 person groups NEVER bothered me at all. That we had 20 people groups before was more or less a theoretical possibility 99.5 % of the time. And if I want to make larger groups post-CU I can always create several 8 people group and we all comunicate over teamspeak.
--> Have fun, Erillion

carnikar · July 2005

Originally posted by Erillion

Originally posted by carnikar

I would have to say you are slightly off base one describing the now and then or at least forgeting that pre-CU profesions that were involved in crafting and entrantiment actualy had roles in commbat?
--> Being a 2+ years veteran I have not forgotten that. Crafters in combat ... well, i AM a crafter fighter hybrid and my specials for crowd control have an important role in my group even now, so THAT has not changed. Pure entertainers had not a lot to do in the battlefield now and then and if an entertainer really wants to fight (s)he can always go hybrid. I would not call an entertainer dancing in a camp "taking part in combat".
Lets just say that entrantainers were involved in combat in the background just like the crafters, i was not talking about the direct fighting they can do. So AS got the the stick up the bum post CU, WS to some degree to and the crafting from doc profesion was taken out. How long, do you think, before anything worth having will be loot only on expansion planet #3?
It's easy to say that bufs were bad in the old system but can you say that the dumbed down CU commbat is more engaging than the old style combat, were, at least in PVE, you had planty of tactical aproaches to take down a mob.
--> WOOT ? Tactical approaches in pre-Cu ? Such as what ? Spam base attack and MAYBE a spin special once in a while, being encased in normed 85 % composite armor wielding a Krayt power hammer and not getting hit due to your FOTM stacker template after having gotten a god-mode buff by a doc on top of your brandy and muon stupor ? Watching TV in the meantime or getting a drink and reading the newspaper.
--> After CU you have to take care and cant just aggro half the planet and kill it with a few spin attacks.
There were times were we fought whit out armor or buffs. I did BH whit out armor, bufs or pets. I rember going to Endor to grind my last couple boxes of carrabine XP. I had discovered that crased gurreks had low resisits to acid and electricty. So i would pull one then start my carabine attacks and states, i would also put the pistol bleeds on it, also an acid wepon, and then if things go bad i could use my LLC to try and kill it quickly.
Or another example, there is a certian mob that had high acid and electicty resisit, 80% for acid and 100% for 'city so that meant that it was no chance for to do much harm to it and even states just didint work to well on mobs.
Or how about my BH marks?Those bugers could kill me in 2 hits, rember back then there were no buffs and i could never spend 1mil for armor. Back then you could just examine the target, and hell even change wepons on the fly, and see waht resisits it had and wepans you should use. IT was the same for evry mob in game i could even do the dark jebi masters, that had the amasing 80k ham back then lol, just by using the tools of my profesion.
After CU all mobs just became CL holders. I rember during the CU beta, when mobs were still all over the place level wise, that CL100 kretle was just the same as CL100 tusken. Or any mob for that matter or can you honestly say that wehn you are grouping you will decide waht mobs the group will fight by anything else but its CL?
Now dont get me wrrong, iam not saying that buffs and 80-90% arrmor were a good thing but those were elemnts of SEO's bad/rushed desicions due to SWG being released befeor it should have been.
--> I blame SOE marketing, not their coders.
I blame the person that leads the coders for not puting his foot down but iam sure "corporate culture" don't like that sort of stuff to well.
Buffs, armor, limited PVP choices were all due to SEO's desicions, even tough they tried to blame the players like the did concering bufs and armor, yet those were elemnts that could have been solved given enough time but all we got was holocorns for christmas tough i must addmit it was something that give the game life for few more months.
--> Holocron insanity of 2004 was for me personally the "valley of despair" for SWG. The uproar over CU could not compare to that IMHO. I have lost too many in game friends to that stupid, senseless, mind numbing boring, mad grind to Jedi via holocron. All victims of burnout syndrome.
Many of us "veterans" left the game becouse we saw trough the BS that the devs were trying to pull on us, killing buffs is all fine and dandy but craming a level system, whit litle to no testing, was something that just screamed of " hey we wanted to balance the game
--> More like ... we want to balance the game, but hey, there is that movie coming out and neither disease nor high water will keep our markting department from pushing it onto the shelves, no matter if it looks like "Pong Reloaded" because they know that they will get a 100 k more subscribers if the game is ready when the movie is in the theatres, while losing maybe 10-20 k veterans, of which many will come back within the next 6 months.
--> I curse SOE sometimes for the decisions they make, but on the other hand I understand WHY they do some of the things they do. SOE is not in it for charity, this is business, not fun and gaming.
If it wasn't the SW liscense the game would have gone under already, their "busines" decisions equals crap product. I payed for them to provide me whit a fun game but i guess now days busineses providing good product is not that important hehe.

but its to darned hard so we will just trow something in that we know works and we dont have to do much work balancing it. Ohh and wile we are at it lets just take the social interaction asspects from the game and rpelace them whit 8 person groups"
--> 8 person groups NEVER bothered me at all. That we had 20 people groups before was more or less a theoretical possibility 99.5 % of the time. And if I want to make larger groups post-CU I can always create several 8 people group and we all comunicate over teamspeak.
There was nothing theoretical about the 25 groups. Many times i lead raids on rebel towns whit 2 full groups and change. It was hard to keep comms just whit 2 groups. But i guess not like SEO cared much about the the teame around which the game was build 8 person groups are just fine fo grinding and geting that l33t gun from the wok planet

--> Have fun, Erillion

scaramoosh · July 2005

I played in beta and early released and hated it!

Decided to try it the other week and the game is soo much better now, i thank the CU!

Altho the CU has alot of problems, which i think are caused by the old game not working with it

Erillion · July 2005

Originally posted by carnikar

Lets just say that entrantainers were involved in combat in the background just like the crafters,
--> entertainers did some dancing and music back in the camps. Is that "being involved in combat" in your definition ? How were crafters "involved in combat" according to your definition ? Having crafted the equipment is not exactly "participating" I would say.
i was not talking about the direct fighting they can do. So AS got the the stick up the bum post CU,
--> Interestingly enough AS cant keep up with the demand at the moment and I see new AS joining the business all the time because there is serious money to be made in that profession. My guild has gone from 1 to 3 full time AS in the last months, with smugglers pumping them full of faction points. Yes, AS had to face serious changes, but the AS community has rebounded and is flourishing.
WS to some degree to
--> The only effect i see is that MORE weaponsmiths are in the business , while before CU a few large weaponsmiths per server (12 pts, force sensitive, possessing the best resources of 2 years) have totally dominated the market (and prices were high as the WS talked to each other).
and the crafting from doc profesion was taken out.
--> And given to the bio-engineer. So docs that only crafted were able to respec for free to BE and do what they did before. And fighting docs are now out in the field with combat groups. That was a harsh measure from the devs and players were not given much choice, but it DOES work and docs ARE in high demand at the moment. Especially as medics cant heal black bar wounds anymore.
How long, do you think, before anything worth having will be loot only on expansion planet #3?
--> Please specify what you mean ? If you mean some things can only be looted and not crafted ... that is the case even now. I am a shipwright and people can loot some chassis I cannot craft. But it does not bother me overly much - my crafted stuff is STILL in high demand. But many looted things require crafters to finalize the product (looted schematics, looted components) ... which is a good idea.
It's easy to say that bufs were bad in the old system but can you say that the dumbed down CU commbat is more engaging than the old style combat, were, at least in PVE, you had planty of tactical aproaches to
--> you are often talking about tactical approaches in PvE pre-CU. That MIGHT have been the case in 2003 when people did not yet have the high end equipment they had in 2004 and 2005. But after 2003 combat against 95 % of the opponents has degenerated in the base attack spam routine I described in my post above. There was NO tactical challenge involved whatsoever as people prefered a Krayt power hammer with 1000+ damage everytime over another weapon with lower damage that MIGHT hit a weakness in the enemies armor type.
--> While I am not the greatest CU fan it HAS brought more balance to the game and we got rid of insane things like "mind shots rulez" and "god buffs" .... and thats a HUGE change for the better. I think the level difference based modifier is a bad idea and should be changed, but thats a personal opinion and I prefer to have the CU, even WITH that modifier, over the old system.
Or another example, there is a certian mob that had high acid and electicty resisit, 80% for acid and 100% for 'city so that meant that it was no chance for to do much harm to it and even states just didint work to well on mobs.
--> Kimogilas had 100 % resist against acid and I killed them with my DX2 pistol (doing acid damage). It was nice that these resists worked against base attacks, but they did not work against specials so these resists were pretty pointless.
---> Yes, Krayts had their lowest resist against cold. NO ONE attacked them with an SG82 cold damage rifle. Everyone used the highest damage type weapon (usually power hammers or T21 etc.).
Or any mob for that matter or can you honestly say that wehn you are grouping you will decide waht mobs the group will fight by anything else but its CL?
--> Usually the potential for a certain type of loot decides what mob we attack. It does not matter if its CL 30 or 92.
--> For some it is interesting how much XP they get (Padawan or Jedi grinder). Those you usually find picket-grinding on Dantooine ... and I can well imagine their brain oozing out of their ears because they are bored to death doing this for 6 months straight.
I blame the person that leads the coders for not puting his foot down but iam sure "corporate culture" don't like that sort of stuff to well.
--> i Concur. But whatever you say about the QUALITY of the final product, the MARKETING of SOE is good ... with the possible exception of Blizzard and WoW that sets new standard for NUMBER of subscribers (but not necessarily a better product or better customer service .. I play both games and read forums for both games). It is (cost-) effective, but not necessarily the best for the players.
If it wasn't the SW liscense the game would have gone under already, their "busines" decisions equals crap product. I payed for them to provide me whit a fun game but i guess now days busineses providing good product is not that important hehe.
--> Well for me the game IS fun. It seems it is for a about 200k+ other people too. Its not all perfect, but I have not yet played a perfect MMORPG so I judge SWG in the context of its competitors. And whatever you say about SOE, they have a proven track record for managing MMORPGs for almost a decade, with no danger of them "running into the ground" ... and that was even BEFORE the SW or Matrix or DC license. Their Station Access pass (play all games for 22 $) and even their "pay for your stuff like you did on e-bay" gives them an edge over most of the competition IMHO.
There was nothing theoretical about the 25 groups.
--> maximum group size was 20 people.
Many times i lead raids on rebel towns whit 2 full groups and change.
--> And you can do the same with 8 man groups. And because you can manage them like real life military .. you give orders to the Squad leaders over Teamspeak (with much more radio discipline), they give orders to their people over group chat ... you can work with a large group of people like a well oiled machine. There IS a reason why in RL squads are 8-10 man groups and not 20.
It was hard to keep comms just whit 2 groups. But i guess not like SEO cared much about the the teame around which the game was build 8 person groups are just fine fo grinding and geting that l33t gun from the wok planet
--> Well, anything my guild WS has crafted with Krayt/Gorax/acklay components is superior to the best looted weapon I have seen so far, and I think I have seen 99 % of all weapons in this game. So IMHO well crafted weapons beat looted weapons any time.
--> Have fun, Erillion

keltic1701 · July 2005

I'll tell you what the Combat Upgrade was. A terrible, terrible mistake!!

Ryker · July 2005

Before the combat upgrade I could get a good suit of armor and a buff and go out and kill a nest of 10 or more creatures higher lvl than me without getting hurt. Now after the upgrade you have to fight things your lvl or a lvl or 2 above you one at a time or you die. You now have to group for the higher lvl stuff. Doctor buffs and armor used to be a must but now you can do without, the armor still helps though but not like it used to.

Doctors used to make alot of money selling buffs, but now they are not that good so docs are not getting rich like they used to. People used to be able to take a crafting prof and a combat prof and kick but but now with the lvl system crafting prof have no combat lvl so you cant get to lvl 80 if your a crafter. If you take all crafting you only lvl 0 and the smallest of creatures can kill you going to your harvesters.

Overall I like the changes.

Master Rifleman
Master Doctor
Imperial Pilot Ace

carnikar · July 2005

Originally posted by Erillion

Originally posted by carnikar

Lets just say that entrantainers were involved in combat in the background just like the crafters,
--> entertainers did some dancing and music back in the camps. Is that "being involved in combat" in your definition ? How were crafters "involved in combat" according to your definition ? Having crafted the equipment is not exactly "participating" I would say.
As the old saying goes, army marches on its stomach. In the old SWG you couldnt fight when you had to many wonds, unles you were TK. Anything that could decrease my teams down time was important for combat imho. Then there are the crafters that suply the protective and offensive gear, tough they may not directly attack their products would often shift the balance.

i was not talking about the direct fighting they can do. So AS got the the stick up the bum post CU,
--> Interestingly enough AS cant keep up with the demand at the moment and I see new AS joining the business all the time because there is serious money to be made in that profession. My guild has gone from 1 to 3 full time AS in the last months, with smugglers pumping them full of faction points. Yes, AS had to face serious changes, but the AS community has rebounded and is flourishing.
Serious changes is an understatment, what if combat profesions got only 1 attack in the name of balance? I bet there would be a large uproar. The fact that your guild has 3 AS now dosn't change the fact that armor production was dumbed down and resource req's increased. Was there a problem whit the experimentation or the way armor worked before for the devs to change it? Realy they could have fixd the stupid comp by just lowring its acid resisit to 10-20% that alone would have brought some wepns back to being usefull.

WS to some degree to
--> The only effect i see is that MORE weaponsmiths are in the business , while before CU a few large weaponsmiths per server (12 pts, force sensitive, possessing the best resources of 2 years) have totally dominated the market (and prices were high as the WS talked to each other).
So what, there are now more WS that are caped at the same point and WS has no chance of going over it.
I guess the fact that those long timer WS were evill for being around long enough to stockpile the resorces that allow them to produce the best wepons? My alt masterd WS just few weeks before CU went live, toke me 6-7 months to get to that point ( and i did cancel that acount about 2 times before that, probably why it toke so long) but in that time i had managed to mine the best stuff i could. Not all of my wepons were the quality that the old timers could make but whit time i could have reached that point. Definatly one of the harder crafting profs to reach competitave level becouse of the time investment required.

and the crafting from doc profesion was taken out.
--> And given to the bio-engineer. So docs that only crafted were able to respec for free to BE and do what they did before. And fighting docs are now out in the field with combat groups. That was a harsh measure from the devs and players were not given much choice, but it DOES work and docs ARE in high demand at the moment. Especially as medics cant heal black bar wounds anymore.
Hmmm my main was a fighting doc for ages and i had no problem crafting my meds, i wonder why they made that change... wait i know thats how its in EQ healers dont craft, sily me:)
How long, do you think, before anything worth having will be loot only on expansion planet #3?
--> Please specify what you mean ? If you mean some things can only be looted and not crafted ... that is the case even now. I am a shipwright and people can loot some chassis I cannot craft. But it does not bother me overly much - my crafted stuff is STILL in high demand. But many looted things require crafters to finalize the product (looted schematics, looted components) ... which is a good idea.
I mean the stuff from the wok planet that is above the caps that WS can reach for example. Personaly i never liked how loot worked in SW it alwas felt like the devs couldnt make their minds up if they wanted to involve crafters in the crafting of super gear or bypass them.
It's easy to say that bufs were bad in the old system but can you say that the dumbed down CU commbat is more engaging than the old style combat, were, at least in PVE, you had planty of tactical aproaches to
--> you are often talking about tactical approaches in PvE pre-CU. That MIGHT have been the case in 2003 when people did not yet have the high end equipment they had in 2004 and 2005. But after 2003 combat against 95 % of the opponents has degenerated in the base attack spam routine I described in my post above. There was NO tactical challenge involved whatsoever as people prefered a Krayt power hammer with 1000+ damage everytime over another weapon with lower damage that MIGHT hit a weakness in the enemies armor type.
Didnt do much PVE in 03 and first part of 04:) Now please dont asume iam defending the crapy way SEO implamanted armor, buffs and profesion defenses. But those things were not responsable for the inbalanced commbat in the game, rather it was SEO decision to go ahead and give us jebi insted of fixing the stuff that they added in the first months of the game. I dont know if you rember that CU was suposed to come in early 04? Defense stackers, CM were all pree uber bufs,armor,wepons yet it bearly registred on SEO's radar, why in the hight of the CM ubernes they added a dungeon that drops componets so that CM can make even uberer poisons and then SEO has the bals to blame players for the way armor and buffs work...
Ohhh and there is no such thing as krayt PH and 1k+ PH were the exception rather than the norm, at least on my server, i felt like a king whit my 700 PH lol

--> While I am not the greatest CU fan it HAS brought more balance to the game and we got rid of insane things like "mind shots rulez" and "god buffs" .... and thats a HUGE change for the better. I think the level difference based modifier is a bad idea and should be changed, but thats a personal opinion and I prefer to have the CU, even WITH that modifier, over the old system.
Balance needs not to exlude complexety. Thats my beef whit the CU. I was never a ubeer player, defense stacker etc. And at least for PVE back than one could find aproaches to taking down most stuff just whit the basic tools of the profesion. AS i was testing the "beginer experince" for the CU i realised the game was becoming a bland grind fest, kill X number of X CL stuff and only the X CL stuff if you want chalange weeeeeellll this aint the game budy.
In agust 03 i kiled hordes of rontos back on ole tat. I did it whit out bufs, i had a chitin breast plate that had like 5% kin resisit if i rember corectly and my DL44 metal:) I was killed alot, had to camp after evry kill, which was good for my survaival xp that was when crafting camps give general crafting xp and helped me master scout i must say. But i could do it and i bet in the new system you cant say the same.
Or another example, there is a certian mob that had high acid and electicty resisit, 80% for acid and 100% for 'city so that meant that it was no chance for to do much harm to it and even states just didint work to well on mobs.
--> Kimogilas had 100 % resist against acid and I killed them with my DX2 pistol (doing acid damage). It was nice that these resists worked against base attacks, but they did not work against specials so these resists were pretty pointless.
With AR1 on the kimos and AR2 on the DX2 how long did you take it to take down 300k ham whit bleeds alone? Ohhhh wait that was before bleed staking was removed, no? And not like you didnt have bufs and armor on i would guess.
In my first kimo enqunter the mind desiase got all of us, thats no buffs and armor.
---> Yes, Krayts had their lowest resist against cold. NO ONE attacked them with an SG82 cold damage rifle. Everyone used the highest damage type weapon (usually power hammers or T21 etc.).
Yeah i can tell you were mainly a crafter:P See, how it worked back them was that AR was the bigest factor. Now the SG had no AR and a krayt had AR1. Wich meant that about 80-90% of the damge didint go trough then subtract 20% from the cold resist for the damge that got past the AR and you would realise way the SG was never an option for any one.
The PH and T21 whit their AR so high could bring more damge past the krayts AR and even tough it had high resisits to those wepons. There were also the DOTs and the ham attcks but well thats history now:)
Or any mob for that matter or can you honestly say that wehn you are grouping you will decide waht mobs the group will fight by anything else but its CL?
--> Usually the potential for a certain type of loot decides what mob we attack. It does not matter if its CL 30 or 92.
--> For some it is interesting how much XP they get (Padawan or Jedi grinder). Those you usually find picket-grinding on Dantooine ... and I can well imagine their brain oozing out of their ears because they are bored to death doing this for 6 months straight.
I blame the person that leads the coders for not puting his foot down but iam sure "corporate culture" don't like that sort of stuff to well.
--> i Concur. But whatever you say about the QUALITY of the final product, the MARKETING of SOE is good ... with the possible exception of Blizzard and WoW that sets new standard for NUMBER of subscribers (but not necessarily a better product or better customer service .. I play both games and read forums for both games). It is (cost-) effective, but not necessarily the best for the players.
If it wasn't the SW liscense the game would have gone under already, their "busines" decisions equals crap product. I payed for them to provide me whit a fun game but i guess now days busineses providing good product is not that important hehe.
--> Well for me the game IS fun. It seems it is for a about 200k+ other people too. Its not all perfect, but I have not yet played a perfect MMORPG so I judge SWG in the context of its competitors. And whatever you say about SOE, they have a proven track record for managing MMORPGs for almost a decade, with no danger of them "running into the ground" ... and that was even BEFORE the SW or Matrix or DC license. Their Station Access pass (play all games for 22 $) and even their "pay for your stuff like you did on e-bay" gives them an edge over most of the competition IMHO.
Is SWG anomly for SEO? I would not test that on anyother SEO products as i found them to be uterly incopetent and uncaring for their product. Toguh its true that unless their is competition there would be litle chance for them to stumble and ofcourse not like sony dont have the financial muscle to get over rough wahther.
Funy thing is that 90% procent of the people that i meet in SWG had low opinon of SEO yet most of them went to EQ2 wehn it came out, it seems to me that only the lack of competiton keeps SEO were they are but thats all academic at this point.
There was nothing theoretical about the 25 groups.
--> maximum group size was 20 people.
It has been while since i cheked that but still 20 is more than 8
Many times i lead raids on rebel towns whit 2 full groups and change.
--> And you can do the same with 8 man groups. And because you can manage them like real life military .. you give orders to the Squad leaders over Teamspeak (with much more radio discipline), they give orders to their people over group chat ... you can work with a large group of people like a well oiled machine. There IS a reason why in RL squads are 8-10 man groups and not 20.
For number of resons large groups are more eficent than smaler squads in MMORPG inviroment.
The first being is that it's a game and not the military, more often than not evryone would not be online at the same time then waht you do if you have 3 groups and 1 doc?
Then is the fact that the group leader would not be efective in commbat, waht whit having to com whit his/her group and other groups so thats 1-2 people per group that canot add to the firepower.
It was hard to keep comms just whit 2 groups. But i guess not like SEO cared much about the the teame around which the game was build 8 person groups are just fine fo grinding and geting that l33t gun from the wok planet
--> Well, anything my guild WS has crafted with Krayt/Gorax/acklay components is superior to the best looted weapon I have seen so far, and I think I have seen 99 % of all weapons in this game. So IMHO well crafted weapons beat looted weapons any time.
--> Have fun, Erillion

Elnator · July 2005

Ya'll are hurting my eyes. I stopped reading that damn post ages ago. Quit with the colors already... yeesh

Overall I like the CU. There are some things about it that irk me but overall I think it was a step in the right direction.

Erillion · July 2005

Man I hate it when I write a reply and my computer locks up before I can post it. Did not feel like writing it again late in the night so here it is again on a sunny next day :<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

>>>>

Was there a problem whit the experimentation or the way armor worked before for the devs to change it?

>>>>

I think everyone running around in the same kind of armor and with 85 % protection (which is simply too much) was a problem the way armor worked. Lowering some resists of comp armor would not have changed that.

Nowadays I enjoy much more to see people use 20 different kind of armor types. Changing requirements meant that more crafters where able to break into the field of AS which is hard on the veteran AS, but they survived and ARE positively prospering at the moment. But like the WS its not only 3-4 brand names anymore. Plus the scouts and rangers with their group hunt bonus now have much more employment than before too.

>>>

I guess the fact that those long timer WS were evill for being around long enough to stockpile the resorces

>>>

The problem was not that they were evil. That problem was that having the effective monopoly on weapons on a server in the hands of 3-4 weaponsmiths meant that these were overworked and often burned-out and lost their fun playing this game. I know 3 examples on my server alone and I know that its not much different on other servers. So in the end such things seem to lead to a dead end for many very nice players. The change means that there are more WS servicing the community and the individual workload is less than before, which means those WS are not totally chained to their crafting stations and factories anymore.

>>>>

I mean the stuff from the wok planet that is above the caps that WS can reach for example.

>>>>

None of the things I have seen from Kashyyyk so far was better than a Krayt/Gorax/Acklay enhanced weapon crafted by a good player weaponsmith. It may be better than a normal issue gun, yes, but thats not were the real profit is to be found for a WS anyway.

>>>

I dont know if you rember that CU was suposed to come in early 04?

>>>>

Yes, space got priority and they HAD to do something against the Jedi holo grind insanity because people burned out by the thousands in that silly grind. So CU was pushed back.

>>>

Ohhh and there is no such thing as krayt PH <?xml:namespace prefix = v ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" /> and 1k+ PH were the exception rather than the norm, at least on my server, i felt like a king whit my 700 PH lol

>>>

The Krayt was used as a synonym for all the enhancers that WS use in their profession Krayt tissue, Acklay bones, Gorax parts, Nym motors, NS loot including their leader witch, DE-10 barrels etc. Powerhammers use Acklay stuff if memory servers right. And I am assuming a damage sliced weapon with 30+ % damage slice (that may explain why I think about dmg 1000 weapons and you about dmg 700). However, I suspect that many of these weapons have been sliced using the powerup exploit to get a guaranteed 33 % damage slice.

>>>>

In agust 03 i kiled hordes of rontos back on ole tat. I did it whit out bufs, i had a chitin breast plate . and my DL44 metal:) I was killed alot, had to camp after evry kill, . But i could do it and i bet in the new system you cant say the same.

>>>>

LOL .. its sounds like you are describing a mid level hunt post CU. Someone with bone armor, a metal DL44 and resting after every kill THAT IS how it is nowadays and THAT also seems to have been something you enjoyed in the past. So whats the difference between back and then ? Its certainly more similiar NOW than to the god-mode buffs in 2004.

>>>

With AR1 on the kimos and AR2 on the DX2 how long did you take it to take down 300k ham whit bleeds alone? Ohhhh wait that was before bleed staking was removed, no? And not like you didnt have bufs and armor on i would guess.

In my first kimo enqunter the mind desiase got all of us, thats no buffs and armor.

>>>>

Yes, I used bleed stacking and feign death to kill GD Kimos and an Ancient Krayt just to prove that it was possible to solo them with a smuggler crafter hybrid. Yes, it took ages. No , I did not buff for the Kimos. Yes, I had armor. Yes, I was diseased too (action in my case) so when the Kimo was at HAM 1 from bleed and I was at action 1 (not being able to do specials with my pistol anymore and therefore do dmg against the 100 % acid resists ) I had to finish it off with my base unarmed attack on the third attempt after 2 incaps (pretty close, neh J ?).

>>>

Yeah i can tell you were mainly a crafter:P See, how it worked back them was that AR was the bigest factor.

>>>

Well, we seem to agree then. Fighters did NOT choose their weapons based on what resists vulnerabilities the mob had (as you claimed in your previous post). Fighters did not switch weapons against different mobs. They just used those weapons (see above : T21 & power hammers mostly ) that gave em the most bang for the buck. I was aware of the importance of the armor penetration it reinforces what I posted in my previous post.

>>> Is SWG anomly for SEO?

Do you mean SOE (Sony Online Entertainment) ?

>>>

Funy thing is that 90% procent of the people that i meet in SWG had low opinon of SEO yet most of them went to EQ2 wehn it came out, it seems to me that only the lack of competiton keeps SEO were they are but thats all academic at this point.

>>>

Well, Blizzard is giving them a lot of competition and SOE is not exactly doing bad . Many players that came into the genre with WoW are now trying other games, including SWG.

>>>

For number of resons large groups are more eficent than smaler squads in MMORPG inviroment.

>>>

Debatable. A matter of opinion.

>>>

The first being is that it's a game and not the military, more often than not evryone would not be online at the same time then waht you do if you have 3 groups and 1 doc?

>>>

What keeps the doc from healing everyone that needs healing , wether he is in her group or not ? Usually tankers need healing, so the doc knows whom to heal. We are talking about a raid here, not a doc grinding medical XP.

>>>

Then is the fact that the group leader would not be efective in commbat, waht whit having to com whit his/her group and other groups so thats 1-2 people per group that canot add to the firepower.

>>>

err why is talking into a mike making him less effective in pushing his attack buttons or starting his combat macro with the flick of a finger ? While the macro does its work one have plenty of time to type some orders and speak into the mike and do ones job as raid leader.

You need to be good in multitasking as a leader both in MMORPGs and in RL military. Not much difference there IMHO.

Have fun

Erillion

Howdy, Stranger!

What was the Combat Upgrade?

Comments

Howdy, Stranger!

Quick Links

What was the Combat Upgrade?

Comments