The game is now literally broken because how CCP bends every time people start crying on forums. You would need to be blind or completely stupid to say that CCP isn't listening to players.
Well, the thread is about listening to players, not listening whiners on FORUMS. There are many other ways like tracking popularity of features in game.
Well, the thread is about listening to players, not listening whiners on FORUMS. There are many other ways like tracking popularity of features in game.
I am sure Blizz does a lot of those.
Exactly. There are a lot of metrics used in identifying what players are using, enjoying, abusing or avoiding in a game, all of which are used in addition to feedback gained from forums, chat channels, social media, etc.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
The game is now literally broken because how CCP bends every time people start crying on forums. You would need to be blind or completely stupid to say that CCP isn't listening to players.
Well, the thread is about listening to players, not listening whiners on FORUMS. There are many other ways like tracking popularity of features in game.
I am sure Blizz does a lot of those.
AH! now thats not what I meant for me watching and collating information through game telemetry for balancing, bugs and general player behavior is not really "listening" because using those sorts of tools is what any good game company should do to improve their game and the player experience. And thats why I say no to listening to players because if you start doing it you've let the genie out of the bottle and players now have control over the direction of the game and they will lead your game away from your initial vision.
Here's an example.....
In Rift in beta Trion had quests that told a story of why you were now able to get a second and third soul to compliment your starter soul, so when you left the starter areas you had 2 souls and at level 17 I think it was you gained your third, but in the beta players started whining about not having 3 souls when you leave the starter area and Trion duly abliged and made those quests now seem ridiculously out of place. Most of us thought it was OK for beta to test the souls but they left it in for release.
Another cave in to players and detrimental to the overall direction of the game and where you put your finite resources was with the opening of servers because players were screaming about 2 hour queues, so they started adding a ridiculous amount of servers to placate the rage rather than do it slowly to reduce times and maybe give away some free time like NcSoft did with Aion. Now they have half the servers because those new ones never got off the ground population wise and they had to offer free weekly transfers.
Gdemami explained some of CCP's player demands that they caved in to changing the original vision for the game and there are many other examples but I think you get my point.
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
Originally posted by nariusseldon Well, the thread is about listening to players, not listening whiners on FORUMS. There are many other ways like tracking popularity of features in game. I am sure Blizz does a lot of those.
Forum whiners are still players, aren't they?
You are missing a point by long shot... I was pointing out that CCP indeed listen to players a lot, regardless of player feedback source or outcome.
Also, you won't get any metrics on features and changes that are not implemented yet and I was talking specifically about CCP as an example how NOT to do it.
There is this naive idea that you can collect objective feedback. You can't.
Blizzard is probably good at analyzing what players want but they are still unable to define what makes them so good and successful.
For same reason you cannot replicate WoW success.
Originally posted by Loktofeit Exactly. There are a lot of metrics used in identifying what players are using, enjoying, abusing or avoiding in a game, all of which are used in addition to feedback gained from forums, chat channels, social media, etc.
Yeah, that is why projectiles got boosted despite they were used heavily according to those metrics...
And when projectiles and minmatar contribute to more than 60% of the PVP kills, they are still not nerfed, balanced or w/e... they even got boosted recently again...
The developers should do what makes the majority of their players satisfied with continuing enjoying the game through long periods of time. Is that 'listening' to the players? Usually... Maybe not always...
For example, when SWG was released they had a 'buff' system to allow doctors to make players stats stronger for 1-3 hours. The dev team had a certain idea of how strong the buffs should be and they attempted to balance this to match that, but buffs were player crafted items and their strength was based on resources gathered in game. So extremely strong resources should not have been spawning very frequently in the game world, but they were. Incredibly strong resources were spawning far too often, and it led to buffs being incredibly strong. Players quickly began getting buffs before every game session, enforcing that they play for 2-3 hours since they 'paid for buffs'. Also this discouraged group play because buffs made players able to take on 5-10 'red' monsters at once. The game was originally made for red monsters to be difficult to solo. Furthermore, buffs made the combat mechanics of SWG broken because it allowed for any skill to be used with little or no H/A/M drainage, which was not the intended style of combat play. It lead to players spamming their most powerful attack regardless of the enemy they were fighting. It also lead to players being able to use the heaviest armor regardless of their class, because the heavy armors negative effects on your stats had very little effect if you were buffed.
So thats why they should have nerfed the resources.
But they didnt, because players did not want them to. They had gotten acustomed to being overpowered and would have been in an uproar if they were not overpowered.
IMO, the real problem here was that the dev team didnt act swiftly enough to nerf the resources. They should have nerfed them before the buff usage became widespread throughout the server... Or even better, during beta. But it is a classic example of a game bug not being corrected because it is not what players wanted.
The broken combat mechanics that were caused by the overpowered buffs arguably lead to the 'combat upgrades' and maybe even the 'new game enchancements'... And in part, the eventual complete shutdown of SWG.
IMO, devs need to have the balls to say what is RIGHT and stand up to the players.
Simply because you cant please everyone all the time, there will be some good ideas from players, but once the mechanics are set, you cannot change core features of the game without starting over.
A few minutes on these forums should dissuade any sane person from listening to players. Game companies should look at various metrics.
How many players do this activity?
Do players avoid this activity?
If we have 2000 players online what are they doing? What systems are they utilizing? Is no one in our dungeons? Why not? Questions like that can lead to better gameplay, imo.
Depends.... forums? Hell no unless it's one of those indepth math geek talk like Tankspot or Elitest Jerks who provide math on theorycrafting.
ANet I think really has it spot on, their big for fan conventions and mingeling with their fans which I think many companies fail at and just use these conventions as a publicity tool. This is not for an issues aspect of the game but more of the personal one-on-one basis with fans and addressing concerns.
Devs should consider players thoughts and consider other factors as well.
If players dont like a feature and want it removed, you could consider changing the feature to make it better. Therefore listening to the fans but not being a victim of the vocal players only.
Of course they should always listen but obeying is another thing . ..
NEWS FLASH!"A bank was robbed the other day and a man opened fire on the customers being held hostage. One customer zig-zag sprinted until he found cover. When questioned later he explained that he was a hardcore gamer and knew just what to do!" Download my music for free! I release several albums per month as part of project "Thee Untitled" . .. some video game music remixes and cover songs done with instruments in there as well! http://theeuntitled.bandcamp.com/Check out my roleplaying blog, collection of fictional short stories, and fantasy series... updated on a blog for now until I am finished!https://childrenfromtheheavensbelow.blogspot.com/Watch me game on occasion or make music... https://www.twitch.tv/spoontheeuntitled and subscribe! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUvqULn678VrF3OasgnbsyA
The problem with the whole "listen to us" speil is that it assumes there is some unified "us" to listen to, when there instead exists a very diverse fanbase filled with individuals who want a wide variety of features in what would be their own version of a "perfect MMO."
That said, there surely exist many creative fans with some quality ideas. Fans also approach games from a unique perspective that developers no longer have access to: that of fresh, blank-slate, unknowledgeable outsider. As such, they can potentnially provide valuable input about a variety of aspects of the game. Developers wouldn't be completely amiss to pay attention to fans ideas and occasionally draw inspiration from them.
If I was a developer, I'd listen to everyone, but ignore the majority of people (labeling a large amount as being in the wrong game, wanting something different than the game's vision, or just plain stupid).
Those I listened to and liked what they had to say would still probably be ignored, because I'd have plenty of other things more important to add/fix to the game first. To the point of honestly never getting far enough to do what they want, even though I think it's cool.
Any developer worth his salt doesn't need to listen to anyone, because the vision for the game is already designed and set. Listening for what type or kind of [insert pre-determined feature] is different, but listening for game design changes is not something a real developer should ever want.
For example...
Listening to players as to what RACE, CLASS, or ZONE they want to see next? Absolutely.
Listening to players as to what chane to the game they want? Never.
If balance is an issue, you don't need the playerbase to tell you. Log in and do some tests yourself, and you will find out easily. If something needs to be added to your game, it should make sense.
Take WoW for an example...
WoW's decision to make battlegrounds for connecting multiple servers into one PvP instance was a great idea, because PvP would queue only in specific tiers, only during primetime, and only a few times per day (if you're lucky enough to get in). This didn't affect the community except to make PvP more popular and viable due to ability to play 24/7 instead of primetime only.
Doing the same for dungeons is arguably not a good idea, because it changed the game design itself. The entire dungeon experience, server community-- the whole works changed. Did it change for good? Maybe it did, maybe it didn't-- either way it certainly changed the entire design of dungeons and PvE.
When a game has a distinct vision, changing that vision can be destructive to the game as we saw in SWG. Other times it is arguably better or worse for the games or for subs, as we saw in UO or see in WoW.
Comments
Well, the thread is about listening to players, not listening whiners on FORUMS. There are many other ways like tracking popularity of features in game.
I am sure Blizz does a lot of those.
Exactly. There are a lot of metrics used in identifying what players are using, enjoying, abusing or avoiding in a game, all of which are used in addition to feedback gained from forums, chat channels, social media, etc.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
AH! now thats not what I meant for me watching and collating information through game telemetry for balancing, bugs and general player behavior is not really "listening" because using those sorts of tools is what any good game company should do to improve their game and the player experience. And thats why I say no to listening to players because if you start doing it you've let the genie out of the bottle and players now have control over the direction of the game and they will lead your game away from your initial vision.
Here's an example.....
In Rift in beta Trion had quests that told a story of why you were now able to get a second and third soul to compliment your starter soul, so when you left the starter areas you had 2 souls and at level 17 I think it was you gained your third, but in the beta players started whining about not having 3 souls when you leave the starter area and Trion duly abliged and made those quests now seem ridiculously out of place. Most of us thought it was OK for beta to test the souls but they left it in for release.
Another cave in to players and detrimental to the overall direction of the game and where you put your finite resources was with the opening of servers because players were screaming about 2 hour queues, so they started adding a ridiculous amount of servers to placate the rage rather than do it slowly to reduce times and maybe give away some free time like NcSoft did with Aion. Now they have half the servers because those new ones never got off the ground population wise and they had to offer free weekly transfers.
Gdemami explained some of CCP's player demands that they caved in to changing the original vision for the game and there are many other examples but I think you get my point.
This doom and gloom thread was brought to you by Chin Up the new ultra high caffeine soft drink for gamers who just need that boost of happiness after a long forum session.
Forum whiners are still players, aren't they?
You are missing a point by long shot... I was pointing out that CCP indeed listen to players a lot, regardless of player feedback source or outcome.
Also, you won't get any metrics on features and changes that are not implemented yet and I was talking specifically about CCP as an example how NOT to do it.
There is this naive idea that you can collect objective feedback. You can't.
Blizzard is probably good at analyzing what players want but they are still unable to define what makes them so good and successful.
For same reason you cannot replicate WoW success.
Yeah, that is why projectiles got boosted despite they were used heavily according to those metrics...
And when projectiles and minmatar contribute to more than 60% of the PVP kills, they are still not nerfed, balanced or w/e... they even got boosted recently again...
The developers should do what makes the majority of their players satisfied with continuing enjoying the game through long periods of time. Is that 'listening' to the players? Usually... Maybe not always...
For example, when SWG was released they had a 'buff' system to allow doctors to make players stats stronger for 1-3 hours. The dev team had a certain idea of how strong the buffs should be and they attempted to balance this to match that, but buffs were player crafted items and their strength was based on resources gathered in game. So extremely strong resources should not have been spawning very frequently in the game world, but they were. Incredibly strong resources were spawning far too often, and it led to buffs being incredibly strong. Players quickly began getting buffs before every game session, enforcing that they play for 2-3 hours since they 'paid for buffs'. Also this discouraged group play because buffs made players able to take on 5-10 'red' monsters at once. The game was originally made for red monsters to be difficult to solo. Furthermore, buffs made the combat mechanics of SWG broken because it allowed for any skill to be used with little or no H/A/M drainage, which was not the intended style of combat play. It lead to players spamming their most powerful attack regardless of the enemy they were fighting. It also lead to players being able to use the heaviest armor regardless of their class, because the heavy armors negative effects on your stats had very little effect if you were buffed.
So thats why they should have nerfed the resources.
But they didnt, because players did not want them to. They had gotten acustomed to being overpowered and would have been in an uproar if they were not overpowered.
IMO, the real problem here was that the dev team didnt act swiftly enough to nerf the resources. They should have nerfed them before the buff usage became widespread throughout the server... Or even better, during beta. But it is a classic example of a game bug not being corrected because it is not what players wanted.
The broken combat mechanics that were caused by the overpowered buffs arguably lead to the 'combat upgrades' and maybe even the 'new game enchancements'... And in part, the eventual complete shutdown of SWG.
IMO, devs need to have the balls to say what is RIGHT and stand up to the players.
Play as your fav retro characters: cnd-online.net. My site: www.lysle.net. Blog: creatingaworld.blogspot.com.
Not really.
Simply because you cant please everyone all the time, there will be some good ideas from players, but once the mechanics are set, you cannot change core features of the game without starting over.
Something many players fail to see, imo.
A few minutes on these forums should dissuade any sane person from listening to players. Game companies should look at various metrics.
How many players do this activity?
Do players avoid this activity?
If we have 2000 players online what are they doing? What systems are they utilizing? Is no one in our dungeons? Why not? Questions like that can lead to better gameplay, imo.
Depends.... forums? Hell no unless it's one of those indepth math geek talk like Tankspot or Elitest Jerks who provide math on theorycrafting.
ANet I think really has it spot on, their big for fan conventions and mingeling with their fans which I think many companies fail at and just use these conventions as a publicity tool. This is not for an issues aspect of the game but more of the personal one-on-one basis with fans and addressing concerns.
Devs should consider players thoughts and consider other factors as well.
If players dont like a feature and want it removed, you could consider changing the feature to make it better. Therefore listening to the fans but not being a victim of the vocal players only.
Of course they should always listen but obeying is another thing . ..
NEWS FLASH! "A bank was robbed the other day and a man opened fire on the customers being held hostage. One customer zig-zag sprinted until he found cover. When questioned later he explained that he was a hardcore gamer and knew just what to do!" Download my music for free! I release several albums per month as part of project "Thee Untitled" . .. some video game music remixes and cover songs done with instruments in there as well! http://theeuntitled.bandcamp.com/ Check out my roleplaying blog, collection of fictional short stories, and fantasy series... updated on a blog for now until I am finished! https://childrenfromtheheavensbelow.blogspot.com/ Watch me game on occasion or make music... https://www.twitch.tv/spoontheeuntitled and subscribe! https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUvqULn678VrF3OasgnbsyA
I don't even know what developers could really learn from us anyway. It's not like we speak with one voice or can agree on even the simplest subjects.
The problem with the whole "listen to us" speil is that it assumes there is some unified "us" to listen to, when there instead exists a very diverse fanbase filled with individuals who want a wide variety of features in what would be their own version of a "perfect MMO."
That said, there surely exist many creative fans with some quality ideas. Fans also approach games from a unique perspective that developers no longer have access to: that of fresh, blank-slate, unknowledgeable outsider. As such, they can potentnially provide valuable input about a variety of aspects of the game. Developers wouldn't be completely amiss to pay attention to fans ideas and occasionally draw inspiration from them.
If I was a developer, I'd listen to everyone, but ignore the majority of people (labeling a large amount as being in the wrong game, wanting something different than the game's vision, or just plain stupid).
Those I listened to and liked what they had to say would still probably be ignored, because I'd have plenty of other things more important to add/fix to the game first. To the point of honestly never getting far enough to do what they want, even though I think it's cool.
Any developer worth his salt doesn't need to listen to anyone, because the vision for the game is already designed and set. Listening for what type or kind of [insert pre-determined feature] is different, but listening for game design changes is not something a real developer should ever want.
For example...
Listening to players as to what RACE, CLASS, or ZONE they want to see next? Absolutely.
Listening to players as to what chane to the game they want? Never.
If balance is an issue, you don't need the playerbase to tell you. Log in and do some tests yourself, and you will find out easily. If something needs to be added to your game, it should make sense.
Take WoW for an example...
WoW's decision to make battlegrounds for connecting multiple servers into one PvP instance was a great idea, because PvP would queue only in specific tiers, only during primetime, and only a few times per day (if you're lucky enough to get in). This didn't affect the community except to make PvP more popular and viable due to ability to play 24/7 instead of primetime only.
Doing the same for dungeons is arguably not a good idea, because it changed the game design itself. The entire dungeon experience, server community-- the whole works changed. Did it change for good? Maybe it did, maybe it didn't-- either way it certainly changed the entire design of dungeons and PvE.
When a game has a distinct vision, changing that vision can be destructive to the game as we saw in SWG. Other times it is arguably better or worse for the games or for subs, as we saw in UO or see in WoW.
In forums definetely not.(obvious reasons)
But I think they should find a way to look at how things are going in game.
And as you and others have said they need to have a clear design in mind and to stick to it reasonably well
Where is the difference between Yes and No?
Developers change their games all the time and when people leave they change it in the hope players return.
Are they listening then?
I mean no developer is stupid enough to develop a game with no input .. well maybe vanguard and tabula rasa but else ...