You can argue the fact until you are blue in the face but if you are running, playing, or participating in any way within a server that is free where the company charges a monthly fee for their servers with the same based code it is illegal.
If you manipulate the code to make servers free it is illegal.
You can go on and on and on debating the subject but it is illegal to take a company's code (which they spent years developing and improving) and to use it for your own. It doesnt matter even if it's a slight modification...it's still stealing.
Many people back last summer tried to explain that Lineage 2 free servers were illegal...they even said it on their own websites (something to the effect of "dont report us because what we're doing is legal. However, 90% of the top ten free servers for lineage 2 last summer are all closed down. Why? Because they are illegal.
People who have to create conspiracy and hate threads to further a cause lacks in intellectual comprehension of diversity.
Originally posted by Bitey I fail to see how that is "pirating" or "stealing". Illegal and immoral? yes. Pirating? no.
Well he's stealing scripts. Scripts that first he has to hack to alter. Buying a game gives you the privilage of playing that game. Nowhere in the software rights does it give you the right to alter scripts, run your own server or add and remove content. The code is a private matter covered by the trademark and in some cases patents. Piracy is taking something that isnt yours and using and/or distributing it to others. I wonder if he realizes its a million dollar offense for software piracy? Thats for each piece not as a whole. Some people want what hey want and don't care about the legalities of the matter. They say "it shouldnt be wrong so i do it" but what they fail to understand is that whether SONY is greedy or not isnt up for debate.. What they are doing is illegal no just immoral.
And En1gma quit freaking deleting and locking my posts or i'm going to pod you next time i see you in EVE biatch.
I'm kinda wondering why that one post by me was deleted. I didn't post any links to pirate sites or servers, so what gives? I'm thinking it's because I pointed out that MMORPG servers are just databases and you can pick up an SQL database for free, or something to that effect.
Anyway, you all keep harping us changing code and we aren't touching the executeable. We're manipulating the config and data files which are in no ways protected by IP laws.
Dreaming is fine. Dreaming is legal. Stealing, however, is neither.
First, you say companies should open up their code to anyone who buys it. Let's look at this on a non-game basis. Let's look at the company everyone loves to hate: Microsoft. If Microsoft opened up their source code to anyone who bought Windows, any two bit programmer could make a change or two to it then say it was his own coding and give it away (just like free MMORPG servers). The fact remains that those programmers worked damn hard developing Windows, and they deserve to be compensated for it.
The same is true of game programmers. The time invested in building and maintaining an online game earns the companies the right to charge what they want for it. In fact, ANYTHING you own, that you have created yourself, earns you the right to sell it for whatever cost you deem fit. Then Adam Smith and economics come into play, and people decide whether or not the price you've deemed fit is truly appropriate. However, if you choose to sell your flavenheimer (the imaginary device you invented) for $2000, and people decided they didn't want to pay $2000 for it, they don't have to buy it. However, the fact that they don't think it's worth $2000 doesn't mean they can just come and take it. You did not pay for the code in the game. You paid for the opportunity to execute the code. That is all. Once you start altering the code WITHOUT THE COMPANY'S PERMISSION (we'll come back to this) you are stealing their property. Changing a config file IS changing the code. It's part of the programming of the game.
As far as modding, the mod community exists and thrives because of companies that choose to allow modders. Look at EA with the Battlefield series. They allowed modders to create new terrains for Battlefield: 1942 because they knew it would improve the replay value of their games. Thus, they granted their permission for some of the coding to be altered.
Sony, however, has not granted this permission. They have strictly forbidden it. Thus, by creating and using free servers, you are stealing their software.
It is in no way a monopoly to require that your game run on your server. It would be a monopoly if you created the only game, forced every competitor out of business, and then preinstalled this game on people's computers, forcing them to use it. Everyone likes to jump at monopoly theories, but, in reality, a monopoly is a very difficult thing to create, and an even more difficult thing to maintain.
The point remains, you are stealing from a company that has invested a large amount of money to bring you entertainment. They spent millions of dollars and thousands of man hours to bring you a title which you profess to enjoy. They then set up a contract with you allowing to use that software as much as you want, as long as you pay for it. If you deem that the price they charge is too much, then your only option is to not play. Stealing from them is not an option that you can back morally or legally.
I also fail to see how I can be stealing something that I paid for. They spent millions of dollars to develope it and I paid $30 dollars for it, peace out. They need to maintain it, I don't use their servers so they don't have to maintain that space I don't occupy. Everybody wins.
Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe I also fail to see how I can be stealing something that I paid for. They spent millions of dollars to develope it and I paid $30 dollars for it, peace out. They need to maintain it, I don't use their servers so they don't have to maintain that space I don't occupy. Everybody wins.
You truly have no clue about software licensing laws do you.
No, Quake 3 and UT *allow* you to mod their games. It is part of their marketing. SOE does not.
If they are even using the artwork or animations on their servers, they are stealing it. If they are using Sony's code, they are in violation of IP laws. If they are using Sony's art and animations they are in violation of IP laws. If they are not using *anything* of Sony's, they are making their own game and can do with it as they please.
Seriously believing it can be done and knowing the costs involved are again, two different things. You based your argument on a $75 "operating cost". That shows a lack of real world knowledge on overhead and operating costs. It's true, anyone can pay an ISP $75 to host their domain, but it costs money and time to maintain. This isn't about being cheap, it is about taking and using what isn't yours. I don't want to pay for a $50,000 truck, so instead of just paying $25,000 and taking it, I will pay $25,000 for a $25,000 truck.
The term price gouging refers to exploiting another by charging too much for an item in high demand. Generally this term is used when a product is a need and not a want. So, someone jacking the price of a $5.00 flashlight to $20.00 during a hurricane would be price gouging. It is not defined as making a profit on your investment, and Everquest is not a need. Everquest is a luxury.
I am not understanding your logic on the TV. If you were to buy a TV that came with the caveat you had to use their cable service to get the TV then that would be perfectly legit. If you don't want to do that, then buy a different TV. There is more than one TV company out there, just like there is more than one MMO out there. If you want to play Everquest, pay them for it. Otherwise, find a game marketing as free (AO for instance) and play that one.
If people were to pay to lease the server software, the cost would just be transferred to them and they would ask you to pay for it. You wouldn't think they would lease the software for $15 a month do you? In that case Sony would go from 500,000 customers to about 10,000 customers. They would need to find a way to keep those original people employed and keep their profits flowing. That means raising the price to keep up. Companies aren't in business to break even.
By using the original code and NOT changing the code, you are even deeper into breaking IP laws. You can't win this argument. Make your own game and avoid it all together.
Also, if companies were having issues with people being willing to pay for subscriptions, I would think that subscription prices would be going down. However, they have recently gone from $13 a month to $15 a month, and server populations have only increased. I think that laws of economics are proving that your average player is willing to pay the costs.
I want to reply to the leasing of server software. You do realize the Leasing a server or sever software would cost quite a bit more than what you pay to just play on a server, right? You could look at this as opening a store in a retail franchise. You own, operate and maintain the store, but all the merchandise you carry and store frontage would exclusively come from the franchise headquarters. With this business model, a game company would still sell the client and probably run their own server as well. The difference is that some one else could "rent" the software or buy it and run their own server that would be supported by the main developement house. You could also allow server operators the ability to make small changes in the game in order to support several different tastes and play styles. You could pull down about the same amount of money as the current business model with a larger player base, lower immediate overhead and signifacantly lower monthly fees.
Another advantage of having several smaller, independantly operated servers is that each server could cater to their specific community's needs in a way that these Monolithic, big money monsters can't. This is all just a sketch of what could be done with this idea but it's a good start.
Just imagine how much worse customer service and technical support would be though. Instead of calling up SOE and at least being able to gripe, they would say "I'm sorry, you're on xxxxx's server, please contact him." You call him, he says "Oh, that's a Sony issue." Nothing gets resolved. Also, it would limit the parent company's ability to regulate what happens in the game. If the server admins are able to change content, they could add in a violent cut scene, an NPC who walks down the street grabbing himself and swearing, or anything else they chose. Given the current feel in Washington towards games in general at the moment, I think most companies are going to keep the content of their games as tightly wrapped as they possibly can.
I gotta resort to real world comparisons on this one. Just as Wal-Mart has a system for reporting issues at individual stores, so too could a developement house monitor it's independant servers. Techinical issues with the software would have to be One shot deals. You post what you believe is a bug and it's the server admins job to make sure that it isn't a server side scripting error and if he/she can't find anything they bump it up to corporate.
As for content changes.... Most media companies have a set of Standard and Practices that define what is acceptable for their programming or distribution. A similar agreement could be entered into with a potential server operator and breach of that contract could result in closure and fines resulting from legal action. I also recall, at the beginning of this thread, many of you stated that monthly fees were used as a way to screen out minors. Yes, a server could be set up without any monthly fees but how many server admins are going to do that after shelling out $3000+ for licensing the server software? Even a price of $5, payable by credit card, would deter most people under 18. Of course, the arguement about screening out minors doesn't really hold water when most games offer prepaid time cards to play on.
I'm not really proposing anything all that radical here. It's all doable and the advantages are very clear.
Wal-Mart has an inhouse system. They employ everyone that works on their servers, monitors their systems, makes the telephone calls to say there is a problem, etc. That cost is absolutely reflected through the price of their product.
*EDIT*: The above point was in relation to cost. You weren't making that point. I apologize. As far as your point with the leaser being able to monitor their servers, I agree. However, that cost would go right to the leasee, and once again to the consumer. The big customer service issue would not be the fact the company could monitor the servers, but the fact the player would have to weed through 2 levels of support if there were a server specific problem.
A company isn't going to charge a flat fee for access to servers or server code if you are using their servers. Leasing implies monthly fees, and franchising implies franchise fees. Therefore the price goes up as the userbase goes up. The bandwidth and support costs go up as the userbase goes up. If the company can't make the same $15 per user by leasing out their servers, they won't do it. Therefore, your average leasing would cost you about $15 per user. How you pay that $15 per user would be up to you. So, your plan would work if someone was willing to shell out $15 for every user on their system. I want to meet that guy and propose something.
Anywhooo... I think my overall point is you need to stop trying to rationalize what can be done by Sony or any other big company and just do it yourself. You will never prove your point until you or someone else does it and makes it work.
Oh, and do it without taking someone elses hard work unless that someone else tells you to go for it.
Been working on it. There server side was the easy part. I'm woking on a client right now and trying to give the client / server protocol room to expand while keeping the message bandwidth low. I'm not really sure how many actions (different messages to the server) the client is going to have to make on the database yet. We're keeping the game real simple at this point though. Also, I suck at 3D programming. The result of that is that I have a shitload of 3D art clogging my hard drive but no engine to run it on. I'm hoping this will get done in the next 6 months or so, but everyone involved is working during their free time.
I also want to make clear that I really didn't have any plans for going commercial with the project I just mentioned. The goal was to make a generic gaphical MUD client / server for free distribution under GNU license. MUDs started off open source, more or less, so I figured that if we made an open source graphical MUD alot of the legal bullshit of running a free server would also go away. I know most people here would turn their nose up at an open source MMORPG but I truely think that the only way MMORPGs are going to get better is by having to compete with indie games in the same genre. If anybody totally rocks at 3D programming or knows of a really good open source 3D engine..... You get the picture.
If I can't this together I can always use the artwork in that online CCG / tactical game I've been talking about for years.
It's already being done and been done. You can purchase a base game engine for $100 or less per seat. You can apply middleware to your hearts content, and you can then do what you want with it.
There is a company which has already made free game development tools which can even work for an MMO. Check out http://www.kaneva.com/create/create.kaneva and you may have what you want.
It is a lot about quality and not just making the game. The profit based companies usually drive the market with quality. Even if it is not the type of quality you would like to see, it is still better than what you would have in most free cases. You should also check out the *huge* number of browser based games out there. They have a great following and may be what you are looking for there as well. I guess the point is, you aren't the first that wants to fight the power. You won't be the last. However, it is going to take a lot of money and a lot of time to create something that will actually challenge the power.
Amen brother!!! My basic policy towards p2p games is this. If I enjoy the game and they're providing a enjoyable atmosphere (i.e. content, CS, updates, ect) then I have absolutely no problem with compensating their time and energy with a small fee. Hell, if a MMOG was entertaining me enough, I'd pay $50. No I'm not rich, but what others choose to spend on cable and all those sports related channels, I choose to spend in other ways.
The constant griping about fees, whether from kids or adults, amounts to basically one thing IMHO. No respect for the effort others put into their work. Yet these individuals would scream bloody murder if their own efforts or labor were dismissed as being worth less "than what it should be". Simple rule to live by, everyone's time is worth money, because time is the one thing that one can spend only once and then it's gone forever.
RE: Question regarding piracy, stealing, and modding.
This is largely a matter of two forces at work IMHO. The first is that I agree with those who condemn the practice the way its being done. If a company expressly gives you the permission to mod the hell out of it, that's one thing, if it doesn't, its another. NWN is a excellent example, and to all those who gripe about having to pay, it's basically free after you purchase the software and you can donate to those whom you like or not.
The other force is what Jimmy_Scythe's argument hinges on, basically "Lawyer Speak". To his defense, he's only doing what Lawyers have been doing for decades, taking the text of something and justifying his actions accordingly by the presence of loopholes. Which is why there are warnings on things like Q-Tips, Toothpicks, ect. Things which when you read them you think "Geesus, how stupid do they think the average guy is?" Answer: They don't, they're protecting themselves from the greed of Lawyers. IMHO, there is a special hell reserved just for Lawyers and I hate what they've done to the modern world.
Just so that no one misunderstands what I'm saying here. I don't agree with Jimmy's interpetation, but it's not something anyone can convince him of otherwise, because from his POV, it's no different than any other manipulation of language Lawyers use every day to justify his particular wants. And whatever one's opinion may be, it'll be something that ultimately will be decided upon in court as the two sides of Leeches ...err..Lawyers, manage to convince a judge is the case.
Even peace may be purchased at too high a price, and the only time you are completely safe is when you lie in the grave.
Amen to that last post. Remember kids: self interest governs all.
My problems with these games is not their graphics or interfaces. The problem is their gameplay. Do I like it when someone tells me that a model I spent three days making and animating for a mod looks like shit? Of course I don't. However, I'm not charging anyone and I'm willing to accept constructive comments on why my work isn't up to snuff. These people are charging and they've been making the same mistakes for the better part of a decade. We've pointed the problems out, offered reasonable suggestions on how to improve and they just haven't listened. Is it any wonder that some of us have started taking matters into our own hands?
I also realise that I'm not the only person that's ever tried this. Neverending ODC, Worldforge, Genecys, The list goes on and on. One of us is going to succeed eventually. It may not be as pretty as EQ2 or Age of Conan, but it will be functional enough to provide hobbyist with all the tools they need to make gameplay as deep as they want. I'm looking for a Mount & Blade level of graphics here. For those of you that don't know, Mount & Blade was made by two people in their spare time using Blender and, I believe, Dev C++.
Anyway, there are alternatives to paying monthly fees, free servers being but one, and I intend to spend time on the games that use those alternatives. If one game was really worth $180+ a year, I'd gladly pay to play it.
Jimmy, hate to say it, but you are wrong. You are breaking the law. And you can argue it until you are blue in the face, but you are wrong. And since you like examples so much here is a perfect example of how you are breaking the law.
This is almost exactly what you are doing:
You buy the Directv equipment. The dish, the reciever for your living room and hook it up. {the equipment being the EQ game in your case}
But you don't feel that the Directv programming is worth the monthly fee.
So you simply alter the equipment you have a little and add an illegal descrambler device. [altering the config files on EQ}
Now you pick up all the Directv programming for free! YAY! {Playing the EQ game client on free servers}
And Jimmy, you should also argue that this is perfectly legal in the manner of stealing Directv programming because this is like exactly what you are doing with EQ. There really is no difference.
I honestly think you know what you do is wrong and you aren't actually trying to convince us all what you are doing is okay.. because you could probably give a damn less what we think.. I honestly think you are really trying hard to convince yourself that what you are doing is legal and just.
If you don't think a game is worth the money, then don't play it. And please don't bitch about it (which I haven't seen Jimmy bitching about actually) - But if you wanna steal it, then that's another thing. You are at your own peril there and walking on your own sheet of ice. And to try and argue that it's prefectly legal is also saying I can put a descrambler on my Directv and get all the access for free and be perfectly legal too. It's wrong and illegal and you know damn well it is Jimmy.
You're only trying to convince yourself at this point, 'cuz nobody else is buying it. Not for a second, bro.
That was a poor example. The reason being that you are still picking up signals from Direct TV's satellites. In that case you are, in fact stealing from Direct TV. Now if it were possible for Joe Blow to launch a satellite into space so he/she could transmit his/her personal programming back to earth AND I were able to modify Direct TV recievers to pick up just that transmission THEN it would be EXACTLY like what I'm doing. I do respect your point of view but this arguement is like debating the legalization of pot. You believe that law equals morality and I believe that there are times when the law is superficial or immoral. We could talk about changing the laws, or we could talk about reducing the cost. I prefer the latter since it's more reasonable and realistic.
Let's put away the pirate talk for now and take this in a new direction. First, a confession: I have an account with Gamfly. I pay $22 a month in order for Gamefly to send me 2 console games that I can keep until I get tired of them and send back. Once they recieve the games, they send me the next two on my list. This is a good deal for me. Why? because I have limited time to play games. After putting in 160 to 280 hours a month working, 224 hours sleeping and god knows how many hours doing housework and spending time with the wife I have about 1 1/2 hours or less for gaming a night. Thats 45 hours a month! With that kind of time, it'd take me almost two months to get through FFX. I'm about 20 hours into it right now and I keep meaning to finish it but..... Anyway, The point is that MMORPGs have to seriously ditch the deadspace if they want my cash. I'm not alone on this. The pace has to improve or all the MMO zealots out there are going to grow up, get jobs and families and have to abandon these games. With less than 1 1/2 hours to devote to gaming, I demand that quite a bit more is going on. I can grind for 1 1/2 hours or I can play 90 rounds of Soul Calibur, by myself or with friends. I've said it before and I'll say it again, it's not how much time you spend playing, it's what you do with the time you spend playing. Sure, $15 gets you 720 hours a month to play with. How many of those hours are you actually going to use? And what are doing during those hours that you are playing? THAT friends and neighbors, is th bottom line.
That's fine Jimmy, and I totally understand your point there on the fact that you want to pay for quality gaming hours. But again, it still goes back to the point here that if a game isn't what you want, then don't support it. If it is what you want.. as you seem to think EQ is, then do support it... but you shouldn't steal it on free servers. But that is your decision man. And I have nothing further to say about it. You seem to have convinced yourself what you do is perfectly legal just as Directv people who pay nothing for free programming have as well. Many people also continue to download free music instead of paying for it. Many people also rent movies and burn them on blank DVDs and pass them out to potential buyers as well, and all have convinced themselves that what they do is perfectly okay. It is an individual moral decision, enough said.
I agree with you that paying for quality time is more worth your money as you simply don't have the time available with a family as you did back before you got married and all. I am in your same shoes there bro, and since I have went from a single punk sitting at home all weekend playing AC and UO locked in my room to the married life with 2 kids now... I also have much less game time to myself.
Anyhow, we are probably much more similar then we might think - even if we do disagree on some things.
Comments
I fail to see how that is "pirating" or "stealing".
Illegal and immoral? yes. Pirating? no.
I love that big post deleted stamp.. makes it look like i did something bad LOL
Make a difference!
Jimmy, what you are doing is illegal.
You can argue the fact until you are blue in the face but if you are running, playing, or participating in any way within a server that is free where the company charges a monthly fee for their servers with the same based code it is illegal.
If you manipulate the code to make servers free it is illegal.
You can go on and on and on debating the subject but it is illegal to take a company's code (which they spent years developing and improving) and to use it for your own. It doesnt matter even if it's a slight modification...it's still stealing.
Many people back last summer tried to explain that Lineage 2 free servers were illegal...they even said it on their own websites (something to the effect of "dont report us because what we're doing is legal. However, 90% of the top ten free servers for lineage 2 last summer are all closed down. Why? Because they are illegal.
People who have to create conspiracy and hate threads to further a cause lacks in intellectual comprehension of diversity.
Well he's stealing scripts. Scripts that first he has to hack to alter. Buying a game gives you the privilage of playing that game. Nowhere in the software rights does it give you the right to alter scripts, run your own server or add and remove content. The code is a private matter covered by the trademark and in some cases patents. Piracy is taking something that isnt yours and using and/or distributing it to others. I wonder if he realizes its a million dollar offense for software piracy? Thats for each piece not as a whole. Some people want what hey want and don't care about the legalities of the matter. They say "it shouldnt be wrong so i do it" but what they fail to understand is that whether SONY is greedy or not isnt up for debate.. What they are doing is illegal no just immoral.
And En1gma quit freaking deleting and locking my posts or i'm going to pod you next time i see you in EVE biatch.
Make a difference!
I'm kinda wondering why that one post by me was deleted. I didn't post any links to pirate sites or servers, so what gives? I'm thinking it's because I pointed out that MMORPG servers are just databases and you can pick up an SQL database for free, or something to that effect.
Anyway, you all keep harping us changing code and we aren't touching the executeable. We're manipulating the config and data files which are in no ways protected by IP laws.
Dreaming is fine. Dreaming is legal. Stealing, however, is neither.
First, you say companies should open up their code to anyone who buys it. Let's look at this on a non-game basis. Let's look at the company everyone loves to hate: Microsoft. If Microsoft opened up their source code to anyone who bought Windows, any two bit programmer could make a change or two to it then say it was his own coding and give it away (just like free MMORPG servers). The fact remains that those programmers worked damn hard developing Windows, and they deserve to be compensated for it.
The same is true of game programmers. The time invested in building and maintaining an online game earns the companies the right to charge what they want for it. In fact, ANYTHING you own, that you have created yourself, earns you the right to sell it for whatever cost you deem fit. Then Adam Smith and economics come into play, and people decide whether or not the price you've deemed fit is truly appropriate. However, if you choose to sell your flavenheimer (the imaginary device you invented) for $2000, and people decided they didn't want to pay $2000 for it, they don't have to buy it. However, the fact that they don't think it's worth $2000 doesn't mean they can just come and take it. You did not pay for the code in the game. You paid for the opportunity to execute the code. That is all. Once you start altering the code WITHOUT THE COMPANY'S PERMISSION (we'll come back to this) you are stealing their property. Changing a config file IS changing the code. It's part of the programming of the game.
As far as modding, the mod community exists and thrives because of companies that choose to allow modders. Look at EA with the Battlefield series. They allowed modders to create new terrains for Battlefield: 1942 because they knew it would improve the replay value of their games. Thus, they granted their permission for some of the coding to be altered.
Sony, however, has not granted this permission. They have strictly forbidden it. Thus, by creating and using free servers, you are stealing their software.
It is in no way a monopoly to require that your game run on your server. It would be a monopoly if you created the only game, forced every competitor out of business, and then preinstalled this game on people's computers, forcing them to use it. Everyone likes to jump at monopoly theories, but, in reality, a monopoly is a very difficult thing to create, and an even more difficult thing to maintain.
The point remains, you are stealing from a company that has invested a large amount of money to bring you entertainment. They spent millions of dollars and thousands of man hours to bring you a title which you profess to enjoy. They then set up a contract with you allowing to use that software as much as you want, as long as you pay for it. If you deem that the price they charge is too much, then your only option is to not play. Stealing from them is not an option that you can back morally or legally.
BTW, when we talk about scripting on free servers we're talking about server side scripts. Since the server side is all original code......
I also fail to see how I can be stealing something that I paid for. They spent millions of dollars to develope it and I paid $30 dollars for it, peace out. They need to maintain it, I don't use their servers so they don't have to maintain that space I don't occupy. Everybody wins.
You truly have no clue about software licensing laws do you.
Make a difference!
No, Quake 3 and UT *allow* you to mod their games. It is part of their marketing. SOE does not.
If they are even using the artwork or animations on their servers, they are stealing it. If they are using Sony's code, they are in violation of IP laws. If they are using Sony's art and animations they are in violation of IP laws. If they are not using *anything* of Sony's, they are making their own game and can do with it as they please.
Seriously believing it can be done and knowing the costs involved are again, two different things. You based your argument on a $75 "operating cost". That shows a lack of real world knowledge on overhead and operating costs. It's true, anyone can pay an ISP $75 to host their domain, but it costs money and time to maintain. This isn't about being cheap, it is about taking and using what isn't yours. I don't want to pay for a $50,000 truck, so instead of just paying $25,000 and taking it, I will pay $25,000 for a $25,000 truck.
The term price gouging refers to exploiting another by charging too much for an item in high demand. Generally this term is used when a product is a need and not a want. So, someone jacking the price of a $5.00 flashlight to $20.00 during a hurricane would be price gouging. It is not defined as making a profit on your investment, and Everquest is not a need. Everquest is a luxury.
I am not understanding your logic on the TV. If you were to buy a TV that came with the caveat you had to use their cable service to get the TV then that would be perfectly legit. If you don't want to do that, then buy a different TV. There is more than one TV company out there, just like there is more than one MMO out there. If you want to play Everquest, pay them for it. Otherwise, find a game marketing as free (AO for instance) and play that one.
If people were to pay to lease the server software, the cost would just be transferred to them and they would ask you to pay for it. You wouldn't think they would lease the software for $15 a month do you? In that case Sony would go from 500,000 customers to about 10,000 customers. They would need to find a way to keep those original people employed and keep their profits flowing. That means raising the price to keep up. Companies aren't in business to break even.
Fadinaway
Playerbase Solutions
http://www.playerbasesolutions.com
I wanted to point out one more thing.
By using the original code and NOT changing the code, you are even deeper into breaking IP laws. You can't win this argument. Make your own game and avoid it all together.
Fadinaway
Playerbase Solutions
http://www.playerbasesolutions.com
Or, better yet, pay the $15 a month.
Also, if companies were having issues with people being willing to pay for subscriptions, I would think that subscription prices would be going down. However, they have recently gone from $13 a month to $15 a month, and server populations have only increased. I think that laws of economics are proving that your average player is willing to pay the costs.
I want to reply to the leasing of server software. You do realize the Leasing a server or sever software would cost quite a bit more than what you pay to just play on a server, right? You could look at this as opening a store in a retail franchise. You own, operate and maintain the store, but all the merchandise you carry and store frontage would exclusively come from the franchise headquarters. With this business model, a game company would still sell the client and probably run their own server as well. The difference is that some one else could "rent" the software or buy it and run their own server that would be supported by the main developement house. You could also allow server operators the ability to make small changes in the game in order to support several different tastes and play styles. You could pull down about the same amount of money as the current business model with a larger player base, lower immediate overhead and signifacantly lower monthly fees.
Another advantage of having several smaller, independantly operated servers is that each server could cater to their specific community's needs in a way that these Monolithic, big money monsters can't. This is all just a sketch of what could be done with this idea but it's a good start.
I gotta resort to real world comparisons on this one. Just as Wal-Mart has a system for reporting issues at individual stores, so too could a developement house monitor it's independant servers. Techinical issues with the software would have to be One shot deals. You post what you believe is a bug and it's the server admins job to make sure that it isn't a server side scripting error and if he/she can't find anything they bump it up to corporate.
As for content changes.... Most media companies have a set of Standard and Practices that define what is acceptable for their programming or distribution. A similar agreement could be entered into with a potential server operator and breach of that contract could result in closure and fines resulting from legal action. I also recall, at the beginning of this thread, many of you stated that monthly fees were used as a way to screen out minors. Yes, a server could be set up without any monthly fees but how many server admins are going to do that after shelling out $3000+ for licensing the server software? Even a price of $5, payable by credit card, would deter most people under 18. Of course, the arguement about screening out minors doesn't really hold water when most games offer prepaid time cards to play on.
I'm not really proposing anything all that radical here. It's all doable and the advantages are very clear.
I don't agree, as I am sure you can tell.
Wal-Mart has an inhouse system. They employ everyone that works on their servers, monitors their systems, makes the telephone calls to say there is a problem, etc. That cost is absolutely reflected through the price of their product.
*EDIT*: The above point was in relation to cost. You weren't making that point. I apologize. As far as your point with the leaser being able to monitor their servers, I agree. However, that cost would go right to the leasee, and once again to the consumer. The big customer service issue would not be the fact the company could monitor the servers, but the fact the player would have to weed through 2 levels of support if there were a server specific problem.
A company isn't going to charge a flat fee for access to servers or server code if you are using their servers. Leasing implies monthly fees, and franchising implies franchise fees. Therefore the price goes up as the userbase goes up. The bandwidth and support costs go up as the userbase goes up. If the company can't make the same $15 per user by leasing out their servers, they won't do it. Therefore, your average leasing would cost you about $15 per user. How you pay that $15 per user would be up to you. So, your plan would work if someone was willing to shell out $15 for every user on their system. I want to meet that guy and propose something.
Anywhooo... I think my overall point is you need to stop trying to rationalize what can be done by Sony or any other big company and just do it yourself. You will never prove your point until you or someone else does it and makes it work.
Oh, and do it without taking someone elses hard work unless that someone else tells you to go for it.
Fadinaway
Playerbase Solutions
http://www.playerbasesolutions.com
Been working on it. There server side was the easy part. I'm woking on a client right now and trying to give the client / server protocol room to expand while keeping the message bandwidth low. I'm not really sure how many actions (different messages to the server) the client is going to have to make on the database yet. We're keeping the game real simple at this point though. Also, I suck at 3D programming. The result of that is that I have a shitload of 3D art clogging my hard drive but no engine to run it on. I'm hoping this will get done in the next 6 months or so, but everyone involved is working during their free time.
I also want to make clear that I really didn't have any plans for going commercial with the project I just mentioned. The goal was to make a generic gaphical MUD client / server for free distribution under GNU license. MUDs started off open source, more or less, so I figured that if we made an open source graphical MUD alot of the legal bullshit of running a free server would also go away. I know most people here would turn their nose up at an open source MMORPG but I truely think that the only way MMORPGs are going to get better is by having to compete with indie games in the same genre. If anybody totally rocks at 3D programming or knows of a really good open source 3D engine..... You get the picture.
If I can't this together I can always use the artwork in that online CCG / tactical game I've been talking about for years.
It's already being done and been done. You can purchase a base game engine for $100 or less per seat. You can apply middleware to your hearts content, and you can then do what you want with it.
There is a company which has already made free game development tools which can even work for an MMO. Check out http://www.kaneva.com/create/create.kaneva and you may have what you want.
It is a lot about quality and not just making the game. The profit based companies usually drive the market with quality. Even if it is not the type of quality you would like to see, it is still better than what you would have in most free cases. You should also check out the *huge* number of browser based games out there. They have a great following and may be what you are looking for there as well. I guess the point is, you aren't the first that wants to fight the power. You won't be the last. However, it is going to take a lot of money and a lot of time to create something that will actually challenge the power.
Good luck! I wish you the best.
Fadinaway
Playerbase Solutions
http://www.playerbasesolutions.com
To the OP:
Amen brother!!! My basic policy towards p2p games is this. If I enjoy the game and they're providing a enjoyable atmosphere (i.e. content, CS, updates, ect) then I have absolutely no problem with compensating their time and energy with a small fee. Hell, if a MMOG was entertaining me enough, I'd pay $50. No I'm not rich, but what others choose to spend on cable and all those sports related channels, I choose to spend in other ways.
The constant griping about fees, whether from kids or adults, amounts to basically one thing IMHO. No respect for the effort others put into their work. Yet these individuals would scream bloody murder if their own efforts or labor were dismissed as being worth less "than what it should be". Simple rule to live by, everyone's time is worth money, because time is the one thing that one can spend only once and then it's gone forever.
RE: Question regarding piracy, stealing, and modding.
This is largely a matter of two forces at work IMHO. The first is that I agree with those who condemn the practice the way its being done. If a company expressly gives you the permission to mod the hell out of it, that's one thing, if it doesn't, its another. NWN is a excellent example, and to all those who gripe about having to pay, it's basically free after you purchase the software and you can donate to those whom you like or not.
The other force is what Jimmy_Scythe's argument hinges on, basically "Lawyer Speak". To his defense, he's only doing what Lawyers have been doing for decades, taking the text of something and justifying his actions accordingly by the presence of loopholes. Which is why there are warnings on things like Q-Tips, Toothpicks, ect. Things which when you read them you think "Geesus, how stupid do they think the average guy is?" Answer: They don't, they're protecting themselves from the greed of Lawyers. IMHO, there is a special hell reserved just for Lawyers and I hate what they've done to the modern world.
Just so that no one misunderstands what I'm saying here. I don't agree with Jimmy's interpetation, but it's not something anyone can convince him of otherwise, because from his POV, it's no different than any other manipulation of language Lawyers use every day to justify his particular wants. And whatever one's opinion may be, it'll be something that ultimately will be decided upon in court as the two sides of Leeches ...err..Lawyers, manage to convince a judge is the case.
Even peace may be purchased at too high a price, and the only time you are completely safe is when you lie in the grave.
Amen to that last post. Remember kids: self interest governs all.
My problems with these games is not their graphics or interfaces. The problem is their gameplay. Do I like it when someone tells me that a model I spent three days making and animating for a mod looks like shit? Of course I don't. However, I'm not charging anyone and I'm willing to accept constructive comments on why my work isn't up to snuff. These people are charging and they've been making the same mistakes for the better part of a decade. We've pointed the problems out, offered reasonable suggestions on how to improve and they just haven't listened. Is it any wonder that some of us have started taking matters into our own hands?
I also realise that I'm not the only person that's ever tried this. Neverending ODC, Worldforge, Genecys, The list goes on and on. One of us is going to succeed eventually. It may not be as pretty as EQ2 or Age of Conan, but it will be functional enough to provide hobbyist with all the tools they need to make gameplay as deep as they want. I'm looking for a Mount & Blade level of graphics here. For those of you that don't know, Mount & Blade was made by two people in their spare time using Blender and, I believe, Dev C++.
Anyway, there are alternatives to paying monthly fees, free servers being but one, and I intend to spend time on the games that use those alternatives. If one game was really worth $180+ a year, I'd gladly pay to play it.
Jimmy, hate to say it, but you are wrong. You are breaking the law. And you can argue it until you are blue in the face, but you are wrong. And since you like examples so much here is a perfect example of how you are breaking the law.
This is almost exactly what you are doing:
You buy the Directv equipment. The dish, the reciever for your living room and hook it up. {the equipment being the EQ game in your case}
But you don't feel that the Directv programming is worth the monthly fee.
So you simply alter the equipment you have a little and add an illegal descrambler device. [altering the config files on EQ}
Now you pick up all the Directv programming for free! YAY! {Playing the EQ game client on free servers}
And Jimmy, you should also argue that this is perfectly legal in the manner of stealing Directv programming because this is like exactly what you are doing with EQ. There really is no difference.
I honestly think you know what you do is wrong and you aren't actually trying to convince us all what you are doing is okay.. because you could probably give a damn less what we think.. I honestly think you are really trying hard to convince yourself that what you are doing is legal and just.
If you don't think a game is worth the money, then don't play it. And please don't bitch about it (which I haven't seen Jimmy bitching about actually) - But if you wanna steal it, then that's another thing. You are at your own peril there and walking on your own sheet of ice. And to try and argue that it's prefectly legal is also saying I can put a descrambler on my Directv and get all the access for free and be perfectly legal too. It's wrong and illegal and you know damn well it is Jimmy.
You're only trying to convince yourself at this point, 'cuz nobody else is buying it. Not for a second, bro.
- Zaxx
That was a poor example. The reason being that you are still picking up signals from Direct TV's satellites. In that case you are, in fact stealing from Direct TV. Now if it were possible for Joe Blow to launch a satellite into space so he/she could transmit his/her personal programming back to earth AND I were able to modify Direct TV recievers to pick up just that transmission THEN it would be EXACTLY like what I'm doing. I do respect your point of view but this arguement is like debating the legalization of pot. You believe that law equals morality and I believe that there are times when the law is superficial or immoral. We could talk about changing the laws, or we could talk about reducing the cost. I prefer the latter since it's more reasonable and realistic.
Let's put away the pirate talk for now and take this in a new direction. First, a confession: I have an account with Gamfly. I pay $22 a month in order for Gamefly to send me 2 console games that I can keep until I get tired of them and send back. Once they recieve the games, they send me the next two on my list. This is a good deal for me. Why? because I have limited time to play games. After putting in 160 to 280 hours a month working, 224 hours sleeping and god knows how many hours doing housework and spending time with the wife I have about 1 1/2 hours or less for gaming a night. Thats 45 hours a month! With that kind of time, it'd take me almost two months to get through FFX. I'm about 20 hours into it right now and I keep meaning to finish it but..... Anyway, The point is that MMORPGs have to seriously ditch the deadspace if they want my cash. I'm not alone on this. The pace has to improve or all the MMO zealots out there are going to grow up, get jobs and families and have to abandon these games. With less than 1 1/2 hours to devote to gaming, I demand that quite a bit more is going on. I can grind for 1 1/2 hours or I can play 90 rounds of Soul Calibur, by myself or with friends. I've said it before and I'll say it again, it's not how much time you spend playing, it's what you do with the time you spend playing. Sure, $15 gets you 720 hours a month to play with. How many of those hours are you actually going to use? And what are doing during those hours that you are playing? THAT friends and neighbors, is th bottom line.
That's fine Jimmy, and I totally understand your point there on the fact that you want to pay for quality gaming hours. But again, it still goes back to the point here that if a game isn't what you want, then don't support it. If it is what you want.. as you seem to think EQ is, then do support it... but you shouldn't steal it on free servers. But that is your decision man. And I have nothing further to say about it. You seem to have convinced yourself what you do is perfectly legal just as Directv people who pay nothing for free programming have as well. Many people also continue to download free music instead of paying for it. Many people also rent movies and burn them on blank DVDs and pass them out to potential buyers as well, and all have convinced themselves that what they do is perfectly okay. It is an individual moral decision, enough said.
I agree with you that paying for quality time is more worth your money as you simply don't have the time available with a family as you did back before you got married and all. I am in your same shoes there bro, and since I have went from a single punk sitting at home all weekend playing AC and UO locked in my room to the married life with 2 kids now... I also have much less game time to myself.
Anyhow, we are probably much more similar then we might think - even if we do disagree on some things.
- Zaxx