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What's the difference between Raid grinding and Dungeon grinding that people hate so much?
MMOExposed
Member RarePosts: 7,400
What's the difference between Raid grinding and Dungeon grinding that people hate so much?
I notice that, yes, there is a growing hatred for Raid Dungeons, and a movement to get rid of this feature in MMO all together.
from some communities it seem the main reason behind the hatred of Raids, is what they call the "Gear Grinding". But why would these same gamers be excepting of dungeons in general, if they also reward gear to grind just like a Raid does? What's the difference?
I am just trying to get a better understanding why the current gen mmorpg players hate raids but love party dungeons.
what I disliked personally about raids, was that they always were hard-mode contents, rather than being a combo of casual play raids and hard mode raids. Since all were hard, it forced me and others to always want to Min/Max out power for that raid.
but the same thing happens when the party dungeons are too hard as well. It forces players to min/max out power for that dungeon to compete. Examples: Black Morris in TBC heroic WoW. I hated that. Hard PvE instances are fun from time to time, but not when 100% of the dungeons are built this way. That's what I personally hate about Raid Dungeons.
what about you?
I notice that, yes, there is a growing hatred for Raid Dungeons, and a movement to get rid of this feature in MMO all together.
from some communities it seem the main reason behind the hatred of Raids, is what they call the "Gear Grinding". But why would these same gamers be excepting of dungeons in general, if they also reward gear to grind just like a Raid does? What's the difference?
I am just trying to get a better understanding why the current gen mmorpg players hate raids but love party dungeons.
what I disliked personally about raids, was that they always were hard-mode contents, rather than being a combo of casual play raids and hard mode raids. Since all were hard, it forced me and others to always want to Min/Max out power for that raid.
but the same thing happens when the party dungeons are too hard as well. It forces players to min/max out power for that dungeon to compete. Examples: Black Morris in TBC heroic WoW. I hated that. Hard PvE instances are fun from time to time, but not when 100% of the dungeons are built this way. That's what I personally hate about Raid Dungeons.
what about you?
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Comments
The main differences lies in the logistics of: forming the group, keeping the group together and working together as a group. All of which is much harder in Raids, because the increased number of people increases the number of issues, rather than the actual difficulty. Someone made an interesting video, about this very subject matter recently and I suggest you check it out, if you haven't already.
It's probably the time commitment. You can do dungeon runs at your convenience at any time of the day. Raids however considering the amount of people necessary and the correct percentage of classes and roles, need specific timing, discipline and commitment. For a pasture that is meant to be relaxing, a good portion of people don't want to deal with the hustle of something that reminds them of their day jobs.
i always thought a raid was like: form a group and raid a major city from the enemy faction, killing npc guards and players along the way. That thought made me happy until i realised that raids are just harder dungeons... ive only raided like 3 times in my entire life... not fond of those kind of stuff
nice video
Well there is the whole casual vs. hardcore argument when it comes to raids.
There is the fact that other MMORPGs existed before WoW that did not even have an itemization system like WoW has and there are fans who exist that want to bring that back.
Then there are Guild Wars 1 fans. You can't ignore that most if not all Guild Wars 1 fans will want to have a similar gear system to GW 1 unless ArenaNet wants to just totally alienate their fan base lol. That would be great, wouldn't it. The community whine of the century if ArenaNet wanted to give all their fans a gear system that will be NOTHING LIKE THEIR FIRST GAME. And then expect them to
it. If they changed it I would think it would have to be <i>really good to convince them to come over from the first game and buy GW2 but what do I know. I would think if you are a Guild Wars 1 fan and you wanted there to be WoW style raiding in GW2 with WoW style controls BUT still have a similar system to GW 1 gear, then I could maybe see how you would be disappointed, but there are so many themepark raid MMORPGs that ArenaNet probably thinks they can make more money by making something different especially since they insist on being a B2P with no monthly fee and a cash shop which is really attractive to everyone. So I might more strongly place my bet on that it is simply ArenaNet's choice. But hey at least there is big raid encounters just no raid groups.
You asked why dungeons are hated less than raids. Firstly, yes, they do go very much the same way of killing trash, kill bosses, get loot, kill more trash, then kill end boss and get loot, involving quests and things while inside but just look at the item qualities and you'll see what makes them different aside from the number of players. Also we're talking about games similar to WoW that follow the WoW raid formula. This is where I derive my hatred if you want to call it that but it's really just my opinion and preferences just like some people like different types of music. I hate dungeons less because I play them. I hate raids more because I don't play them. It's as simple as that. Raids are what you need in order to progress adding to why I should hate them as a fan of older MMORPGs that did not use this itemization system (paragraph #2 in my post). So I can't progress because I don't, but I can in other MMORPGs that don't follow the raid formula. So I will be supporting any game that's fun and tries something different.
This is all 2nd to me being a fan of the first guild wars though. Because I liked the first one, that makes me want to try Guild Wars 2 despite anything.
WOW is making raid easier to coordinate (lfr tool) and the DS raids are more like dungeons with 25 people now. They also break up the raid into two 4 boss section each so time commitment is lower.
To some extent, there is no fundamental difference and just the size and scale of things. If content continues to be more assessible, then i will see the differences to go down even more. Or at least there will be a "dungeon-like" setting for raids like in WOW.
The WOW philosophy is to make all content assessible but if you choose, you can do hard mode on the raids to make the content much more challenging.
I see no difference between the two grinds. If you don't like raiding, you'll be just as miserable grinding group content. Raids groups are getting smaller and smaller, so I do not accept the "management" argument. Managing 10-16 people is not hard.
Raids allow for more sophisticated content, imo. If they are removed, I think end game content will become less inspired. I'm sure people will disagree with me
BTW, this thread would fit well in the GW2 forum
http://f.cl.ly/items/3n15423i0G2i111y3c2b/computer.gif
Raids have a lot of 'mandatories'. You have to show up at a particular time. You have to commit X amount of time or your out, you have to have a minimum performance, etc. Dungeon grinding is playing a game, raid grinding is a second, unpaid job.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Raids are like a store that forces you to only order the "flavor of the month" when all you want is a normal coffee. You have to show up on a certain time for the same dungeon all through a month. But with dungeon grinding you find yourself GOING THROUGH CONTENT. Sure as a raider you go through content too but it's basically like you're doing homework all night in the same room rather than finishing the home work and going out. Dungeons allow you to finish the content, grind the same dungeon when you please, and then MOVE ON. You can go to a different dungeon that has a whole different feel, why do you think Skyrim is so big right now? You get to move from dungeon to dungeon rather than go through the same boss fight in the same room just to get a tad bit better gear.
I think you really need to play something other than WoW, MMOExposed. Most of thw questions you ask here could be answered simply by having a familiarity with other games.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Well since I only play WoW, and don't have other MMO, is it wrong to ask a question when I don't know the answer?Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Funny you mentioned Skyrim. I found that most of the filler dungeons in Skyrim pretty repetitive. The main ones are ok. So basically it take resources to make dungeons and if you play a game long enough, you have to repeat yourself.
I also have yet to find a boss fight in Skyrim as interesting as one in a good WOW dungeon, at least the first few times when you do it.
To be fair, the "Dungeons=Fun -> Raids=Bleh" exists in many games. It's not enough to just play another game, and playing another game wouldn't necessarily answer the question of why some people feel this way.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
5-8 players is the sweet spot for me in my extended gaming experience.
They aren't really different, their emphasis is.
Grinding 5mans for gear will be just as boring as grinding 25mans for gear if that is all you ever really get to do (with a dash of bgs perhaps if you are a little into pvp)
If endgame was lock out dungeons you'd have guilds form around that requiring you to log in 4 times a week to "dungeon" grinding all pots etc in preperation.
And you wouldn't really be able to pug them (unless they were easy like wotlk Naxx raid in wow, easily puggable then).
But there are benefits to lowering it to 5 from 10 or 25.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icOI9UA-W9s some good points in there.