We won't see a unique realm class system again because there is constant whining about balance.
For exapmle I remember when everyone used to complain about the left axe spec for berzerkers and shadowblades being OP, and people always cried about clerics being able to do crazy damage as well as be the main albion healer.
ah yes... AE stun + PBAOE.
But the original thought was with RvR being zerg vs zerg vs zerg, balance wasnt too much of an issue. Balance issues became worse as the 8 man and 1v1 began to take hold. Then mythic turned their method of balancing from balancing for siege to balancing for arenas.
The gripe with Clerics was on both sides. Mid/Hib complaining that smite clerics out damaged everything (they did), and Albs complaining they had no healers since all the clerics were smite.
IIRC there are still trace amounts of newer expansion content found throughout all the free shards. Especially with regards to the main map files.
Also I think most of us would rather pay Mythic for a real Origins server experience. Would feel too dodgy playing free shards for me. Hypothetically speaking of course.
Mythic had their chance with WAR and didn't do so well (they were oh-so close, yet oh-so far)
DAoC's pve was always very lackluster. Dungeons tended to be same-same throughout each realm with only the differentiation being the mobs that spawned and the items that dropped. So, the grind tended to get boring. Though, additions like Darkness Falls, Shrouded Isles and Dragons helped quite a bit. I was always surprised to find out that DAoC had quite the following amongst pvers.
The problem with DAoC was that Mythic neither understood their own game nor their player base. Post-SI, things slowly spun out of control. Outside of Darkness Falls, Realm Abilities, and the Battlegrounds, Mythic forgoed building upon RvR in favor of adding things like instanced pve dungeons, numerous Alternate Ability/Perk systems, more pve grinding, more pve raids, "eclectic" interpretations of lore, and interesting races/classes that usually never fit into the theme of each of the realms.
The two things that were DAoC's strength, Mythic repeatedly ignored: RvR and the lore and myths each Realm was based on.
Mythic had their chance with WAR and didn't do so well (they were oh-so close, yet oh-so far)
DAoC's pve was always very lackluster. Dungeons tended to be same-same throughout each realm with only the differentiation being the mobs that spawned and the items that dropped. So, the grind tended to get boring. Though, additions like Darkness Falls, Shrouded Isles and Dragons helped quite a bit. I was always surprised to find out that DAoC had quite the following amongst pvers.
The problem with DAoC was that Mythic neither understood their own game nor their player base. Post-SI, things slowly spun out of control. Outside of Darkness Falls, Realm Abilities, and the Battlegrounds, Mythic forgoed building upon RvR in favor of adding things like instanced pve dungeons, numerous Alternate Ability/Perk systems, more pve grinding, more pve raids, "eclectic" interpretations of lore, and interesting races/classes that usually never fit into the theme of each of the realms.
The two things that were DAoC's strength, Mythic repeatedly ignored: RvR and the lore and myths each Realm was based on.
Totally agree, and no where was this more self evident than with the TOA expansion. You could tell they were looking at EQ and upcoming titles like WOW and wanted a piece of the audience who favored raiding, so they added a bunch of it to DAOC.
Trouble was, they made it mandatory to participate in the new raids and additional threw in overpowered objects that you had to grind to level them up (and they were subject to normal decay rates, go figure) in order to be competitive in PVP.
Trouble is, most of their current player base had already fled EQ due to its heavy PVP, raiding focused end game and were playing DAOC because of this difference.
So in the end, the didn't draw in any new players from EQ, EQ2 and WOW picked up all those folks, but they did badly alienate their core player base who fled for other titles that released at the time. (including L2, WOW an EQ2)
New Frontiers came out and really added to the disatsisfaction, instead of players viewing it as an amazingly expansive new area to PVP in, it was largely viewed as unnecessarily spreading out the player base making it much more difficult to find a good quick fight, which is really all the player base ever wanted.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Mythic is close to death and there will be no reboot.
The best thing we can hope for is that someone borrow the good ideas the game had, while it was far from perfect it had in the beginning the best MMO PvP up to date.
I don't think we see new games with as many classes again, or where race matters much.
Of course TSW might start something that leads to MMO where you more or less create your own class (or template to be correct) so maybe the idea of 10 or so classes might dissapear again.
3 realm PvP is something I am certain will be back even though probably not like in DaoC. While GW2s the Mists isn't quite the same I think it will prove the concept to the current generation of MMO devs and that we see games with 3 realms again in the future. Right now is the devs still eyeing Wows 2 realms.
DaoCs ghost will hopefully be around the PvP MMOs in the future at least.
I wish I could comment on this game from experience and not from just hear-say and sporatic reports such as this thread. From what I've read and heard, though, back in the day this game was the MMO I had been dreaming of, nyamean? I have hopes for new 3 faction titles in the works, and I knew immediately upon seeing WAR and the 40k MMO and basically everything post WoW that 2 factions is simply not conducive towards a good PVP or RVR experience, and whomever said earlier that in such games PVP is nothing more than highly instanced duels for personal gain that in 0 ways influence the game as a whole was spot on. I remember a time in WoW when people would get together and attack Southshore or Tarren Mill and that was about as open as world pvp would be aside from extremely sporatic and random gankings that meant nothing but a loss of time. If they were to somehow produce a DAoC 2 that was equal if not superior to the original I, too, would sign up I long to be a part of an MMO experience where 3 factions vied for control over a realm of player run (possibly created) strategic objectives that granted faction bonuses when obtained for the period in which they are defended (though nothing to facilitate an inability to have said locations taken from them). Something to really get the player base invested and immersed and up at all hours of the day or night with watchful eyes in anxious anticipation of the inevitable battle to relcaim or capture that which you presently own (that you fought and bled for)! If only someone was with me on this......
New Frontiers came out and really added to the disatsisfaction, instead of players viewing it as an amazingly expansive new area to PVP in, it was largely viewed as unnecessarily spreading out the player base making it much more difficult to find a good quick fight, which is really all the player base ever wanted.
Right! I understood the need for a revamp of the frontiers... but its almost as if they said, "hmm.... Lets make one giant Battlegrounds zone and call it a day!" Some really great areas got destroyed overnight.
Instead, what they needed to do was look at the most popular RvR points (like Emain) and replicate those strong points throughout each Realm's frontier. They also needed to add some visual and structural variety to each Frontier. Old Frontiers 'almost' had a nice balance between PvE content with the dangers of RvR. So many great memories of a number of groups coming together to provide each other with recon and help thwart invading realm members - or the opposite, dispatching a number of groups to an enemy frontier and taking out scouting and pve groups one by one and then attempting a raid of their forts.
FYI: If you want EA-Mythic to SEE this thread, and it's crunchy awesomeness. You should send in a "GENERAL POSITIVE FEEDBACK" form from DAOC website with a link included to it!
Just a thought...
The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity: Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
Have you heard of Dominus? I've received a lot of recommendations for it from DAoC fans. I wouldn't bank on much from Mythic in the future. After the damage that Warhammer Online did to EA's reputation, I have my doubts not only in the premise that the team would even want to put the work into a new MMO, but that EA would greenlight such an endeavor. The Mythic people (Carrie Gouskos, Paul Barnett, etc) are investing too much into the Warhammer MOBA rather than the "boring crap" of your regular MMO.
There is also Secondstar Interactive, which we likely won't see a title from for a good couple of years. This developer is made up of some recognizable names.
Darrin Hyrup: Founder of Mythic Entertainment.
Lory Hyrup: Lead Designer of Dark Age Of Camelot.
Cooper Buckingham: From Warhammer Online, Dark Age of Camelot, The Sims, and Gods & Heroes.
Tim Cotten: Ultima Online.
Eric Piccione: Art Director responsible for the look of Ultima Online and Dark Age of Camelot.
Just a heads up people, if you want any chance of being involved in the Dominus beta test I suggest you head over to their forums and participate. It's a game with promise for all the ex-DAOCers like myself who wish it was in it's prime but are slowly realising those days are gone and won't be back due to the new owners of DAOC.
I was an Avalon Hill boardgamer, then Pong, then Adventure, then Baldur's Gate
DAOC was my first MMO, and I loved it! But, when ToA came out, and the RvR Ranks, it became a giant grind. First grind to maybe get a ring, and then grind over and over to upgrade the ring.
The other thing that ruined it for me was when ToA killed off crafting. For crafting to really work in an MMO, crafted items have to be better than drops.
I think though, that if you took any MMO back to 2001 as the first MMO you've played, almost any decent game would have a special place.
It had a pretty high "complexity" factor, as I call it. Multiple many classes, and each with several "spec lines", made for a complex and fun game. Each of the three sides had different classes too. Contrast that with SWTOR's handful of classes that are the same for the two sides. Bah!
Couldn't agree more. DAoC was the best pvp I've ever experienced and the races and classes were all so unique if people still played today I would be right along with them. They would make bank off a new version.
"God, please help us sinful children of Ivalice.."
Couldn't agree more. DAoC was the best pvp I've ever experienced and the races and classes were all so unique if people still played today I would be right along with them. They would make bank off a new version.
I'm not convinced that a new DAOC would be very popular, I think it'd be profitable but it'd never compete with WoW etc. However what does amaze me is that nobody buys out the rights to the game, either EA don't want to sell it just out of spite or nobody is after the rights.
The game doesn't actually need that much done to it, the basics are incredibly solid and they're all there.
Comments
ah yes... AE stun + PBAOE.
But the original thought was with RvR being zerg vs zerg vs zerg, balance wasnt too much of an issue. Balance issues became worse as the 8 man and 1v1 began to take hold. Then mythic turned their method of balancing from balancing for siege to balancing for arenas.
The gripe with Clerics was on both sides. Mid/Hib complaining that smite clerics out damaged everything (they did), and Albs complaining they had no healers since all the clerics were smite.
IIRC there are still trace amounts of newer expansion content found throughout all the free shards. Especially with regards to the main map files.
Also I think most of us would rather pay Mythic for a real Origins server experience. Would feel too dodgy playing free shards for me. Hypothetically speaking of course.
they haven't touched enough to take away what the Old Frontier brought to the forefront.. Epic RvR.
Mythic had their chance with WAR and didn't do so well (they were oh-so close, yet oh-so far)
DAoC's pve was always very lackluster. Dungeons tended to be same-same throughout each realm with only the differentiation being the mobs that spawned and the items that dropped. So, the grind tended to get boring. Though, additions like Darkness Falls, Shrouded Isles and Dragons helped quite a bit. I was always surprised to find out that DAoC had quite the following amongst pvers.
The problem with DAoC was that Mythic neither understood their own game nor their player base. Post-SI, things slowly spun out of control. Outside of Darkness Falls, Realm Abilities, and the Battlegrounds, Mythic forgoed building upon RvR in favor of adding things like instanced pve dungeons, numerous Alternate Ability/Perk systems, more pve grinding, more pve raids, "eclectic" interpretations of lore, and interesting races/classes that usually never fit into the theme of each of the realms.
The two things that were DAoC's strength, Mythic repeatedly ignored: RvR and the lore and myths each Realm was based on.
Totally agree, and no where was this more self evident than with the TOA expansion. You could tell they were looking at EQ and upcoming titles like WOW and wanted a piece of the audience who favored raiding, so they added a bunch of it to DAOC.
Trouble was, they made it mandatory to participate in the new raids and additional threw in overpowered objects that you had to grind to level them up (and they were subject to normal decay rates, go figure) in order to be competitive in PVP.
Trouble is, most of their current player base had already fled EQ due to its heavy PVP, raiding focused end game and were playing DAOC because of this difference.
So in the end, the didn't draw in any new players from EQ, EQ2 and WOW picked up all those folks, but they did badly alienate their core player base who fled for other titles that released at the time. (including L2, WOW an EQ2)
New Frontiers came out and really added to the disatsisfaction, instead of players viewing it as an amazingly expansive new area to PVP in, it was largely viewed as unnecessarily spreading out the player base making it much more difficult to find a good quick fight, which is really all the player base ever wanted.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Mythic is close to death and there will be no reboot.
The best thing we can hope for is that someone borrow the good ideas the game had, while it was far from perfect it had in the beginning the best MMO PvP up to date.
I don't think we see new games with as many classes again, or where race matters much.
Of course TSW might start something that leads to MMO where you more or less create your own class (or template to be correct) so maybe the idea of 10 or so classes might dissapear again.
3 realm PvP is something I am certain will be back even though probably not like in DaoC. While GW2s the Mists isn't quite the same I think it will prove the concept to the current generation of MMO devs and that we see games with 3 realms again in the future. Right now is the devs still eyeing Wows 2 realms.
DaoCs ghost will hopefully be around the PvP MMOs in the future at least.
I wish I could comment on this game from experience and not from just hear-say and sporatic reports such as this thread. From what I've read and heard, though, back in the day this game was the MMO I had been dreaming of, nyamean? I have hopes for new 3 faction titles in the works, and I knew immediately upon seeing WAR and the 40k MMO and basically everything post WoW that 2 factions is simply not conducive towards a good PVP or RVR experience, and whomever said earlier that in such games PVP is nothing more than highly instanced duels for personal gain that in 0 ways influence the game as a whole was spot on. I remember a time in WoW when people would get together and attack Southshore or Tarren Mill and that was about as open as world pvp would be aside from extremely sporatic and random gankings that meant nothing but a loss of time. If they were to somehow produce a DAoC 2 that was equal if not superior to the original I, too, would sign up
I long to be a part of an MMO experience where 3 factions vied for control over a realm of player run (possibly created) strategic objectives that granted faction bonuses when obtained for the period in which they are defended (though nothing to facilitate an inability to have said locations taken from them). Something to really get the player base invested and immersed and up at all hours of the day or night with watchful eyes in anxious anticipation of the inevitable battle to relcaim or capture that which you presently own (that you fought and bled for)! If only someone was with me on this......
Right! I understood the need for a revamp of the frontiers... but its almost as if they said, "hmm.... Lets make one giant Battlegrounds zone and call it a day!" Some really great areas got destroyed overnight.
Instead, what they needed to do was look at the most popular RvR points (like Emain) and replicate those strong points throughout each Realm's frontier. They also needed to add some visual and structural variety to each Frontier. Old Frontiers 'almost' had a nice balance between PvE content with the dangers of RvR. So many great memories of a number of groups coming together to provide each other with recon and help thwart invading realm members - or the opposite, dispatching a number of groups to an enemy frontier and taking out scouting and pve groups one by one and then attempting a raid of their forts.
FYI: If you want EA-Mythic to SEE this thread, and it's crunchy awesomeness. You should send in a "GENERAL POSITIVE FEEDBACK" form from DAOC website with a link included to it!
Just a thought...
The Theory of Conservative Conservation of Ignorant Stupidity:
Having a different opinion must mean you're a troll.
I still play on Uthgard a lot. the pve is painfull but Old Frontier RvR is still going strong.
Keeps me grounded knowing i will always have rvr when i crave it.
The way mmo's were: Community, Exploration, Character Development, Conquest.
The way mmo's are now : Cut-Scenes,Cut-Scenes, solo Questing, Cut-Scenes...
www.CeaselessGuild.com
Just a heads up people, if you want any chance of being involved in the Dominus beta test I suggest you head over to their forums and participate. It's a game with promise for all the ex-DAOCers like myself who wish it was in it's prime but are slowly realising those days are gone and won't be back due to the new owners of DAOC.
Dominus forums
I was an Avalon Hill boardgamer, then Pong, then Adventure, then Baldur's Gate
DAOC was my first MMO, and I loved it! But, when ToA came out, and the RvR Ranks, it became a giant grind. First grind to maybe get a ring, and then grind over and over to upgrade the ring.
The other thing that ruined it for me was when ToA killed off crafting. For crafting to really work in an MMO, crafted items have to be better than drops.
I think though, that if you took any MMO back to 2001 as the first MMO you've played, almost any decent game would have a special place.
It had a pretty high "complexity" factor, as I call it. Multiple many classes, and each with several "spec lines", made for a complex and fun game. Each of the three sides had different classes too. Contrast that with SWTOR's handful of classes that are the same for the two sides. Bah!
------------
2024: 47 years on the Net.
Couldn't agree more. DAoC was the best pvp I've ever experienced and the races and classes were all so unique if people still played today I would be right along with them. They would make bank off a new version.
"God, please help us sinful children of Ivalice.."
I'm not convinced that a new DAOC would be very popular, I think it'd be profitable but it'd never compete with WoW etc. However what does amaze me is that nobody buys out the rights to the game, either EA don't want to sell it just out of spite or nobody is after the rights.
The game doesn't actually need that much done to it, the basics are incredibly solid and they're all there.
If I ever win the lottery...