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SWTOR shouldn't be subscription based at this time and here's why?
sim0533
Member UncommonPosts: 8
I want to pay for this game every month and I might at some point in future. But as of right now i cannot justify such action do to the world feeling less like an MMO and more like a Single Player game. Before i am bombarded i understand that there are many that are applauding Bioware efforts to make this world more friendly to a casual audience. I have no doubt that allot of the success will come from this audience.
However if by just looking at other games that are subscription based i am having a hard time finding that one thing that gravitates me to this game for any long period of time. Understanding that a long period of time is subjective, i will clarify. I could play each race at least once, which there are 8 of them. This would take approximately 3-4 months respectively. I however know that after playing three different characters that that is more my limit. With those three which I have a Level 34,24,11 and my nephew has a level 20 it has taking me about 6 days of play time or about 20 days. I have not rushed and have completed all bonus missions for each world respectively and have not used my spacebar for dialogue.
If i did the math it would take me around another 40 or so days to max each of these characters out. I am a fan of RPG's like any other, and do appreciate allot of what has gone into this game with respect to the RPG elements, Dialogue, production value, and customizations. However that is not what i am solely looking for when i decide to start and MMO. Before i am bombarded that this is not an MMO in the traditional since i would ask those to read an interview with the director of this game James Ohlen.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-01-12-bioware-swtor-post-mortem-its-more-innovative-than-an-fps[/URL]
In that interview it is clear that SWTOR was always intended to be an MMO that took form the success of previous MMO's. This is where my problem starts. Yes, besides what I already stated in reference to RPG elements this game does live up to a certain portion of what makes an MMO and MMO. It does this in a couple of respects.
The galaxy is very large, and the number of planets are plenty. There is always other online players within the game and more important they exist within the same plain as your character (killing the same enemies, harvesting the same nodes, on the same quests). Flashpoints, Herioc Quests, and Herioc World Bosses all support the MMO model of grouping up and taking down the larger challenges within the game. Warzones and PvP contested areas on many maps, and Raids all support the cause further that SWTOR has the basic fundamentals of what is now normal within an MMO.
So now if your still reading this, you might say well you just listed things that go against your defense and therefore making you're claim obsolete. Under normal circumstances that would be true, but as I have listed early, this game still feels more like a single player experience even after having all the basics of an MMO.
It's not because the things that make up an MMO doesn't exist, it's what SWTOR limits within each of the things that supports my claim.
1.) Large Galaxy (yes it is, but unlike other MMO it is sectioned into pieces that can only be accessed via a loading screen. What makes this worse is that with each loading screen, the number of total players on a giving server is divided up amongst all worlds. Coupled with the fact that the chat function with any giving world is also divided with each loading screen, you are never really able to communicate server wide unless you specifically input such command within the chat function (/who). The Division does not stop there because each world has multiple shards or instances. Where it divides the world into two separate worlds that exist in the same world. This process was used early on to lower the que times many were experiencing at launch. However currently the software doesn't know to revert characters back to shard 1 during lower population times.
Conclusion: Yes the world of SWTOR is as big if not bigger then any other MMO on the market, but with the divisions on top of the division the appearance and function does not have the same feel as other MMO's. Supporting the complaints that the world feels empty, even though the server is Heavy or Full. They aren't empty they are just divided. This gives way to the feeling of a more single player / Co op experience rather then an MMO. MMO's rely on community immersion or overcrowding and is a staple of this genre.)
2. Online players competing with world resources (MMO's rely on community immersion or overcrowding and is a staple of this genre. This overcrowding makes you feel like you are part of the world. It what seperates an MMO from a single player game or Co Op style game. Co Op games do not have you competing with every player online that plays a game. It only has you competing with a small population of any giving players online for that game. SWTOR does fit the definition of an MMO with relation to population, but does it at a frequency far less then any other MMO currently in existence. Reasons for this include what was discussed earlier with the worlds being divided through loading screens, the division in each of those worlds through shards and instances.
Conclusion: These divisions are very similiar to the ones you see in a Co Op game mentioned above. The model SWTOR uses restricts that feeling of overpopulation and does so in a way that seems purposeful or by design. I understand that many consumers are very satisfied with this model as it allows for a more singular experience, rather then a community one. If that is the new model of an MMO then i digress and understand that it will usher in subscription based Co Op and Single Player Games.)
3.) Flashpoints, Herioc quests, Herioc World Bosses, and General grouping of players. (Before i state that SWTOR doesn't do these things well within the MMO world, let me say as a whole this is the one part of the game that feels fleshed out. Flashpoints are a shining example of what works in SWTOR. They are centrally located within the fleet, and other then there still being shards that divide the fleet into sections, finding a group for these Flashpoints are far easier then the rest of the grouping activities within the game. When we start talking about Herioc Quests and those quests that are world specific we run into a problem. Again allot of this stems from the division of each planet as stated above, couple with the fact the the chat function only works within the world and shard that you are in by default. The other is companions and the overall mindset that players have from the beginning stages of the game. Because of the overall feel of the game being a single player experience, with character specific quests and the ability to complete all of these quests with just the aid of a companion, to the fact that all other quests not story related that would require a group seem completely optional. I love this part of the game and am understanding that in some cases should be the new fad when creating an MMO. It adds a different element to the experience. But intentional or not hurts the overall purpose of an MMO that relates to group content. Again before i am bombarded with replies, I understand the need for this and will say the integration adds more than it hurts. However when the bulk of a player time is taking to complete these story driven endeavors, its taking away from the core of an MMO experience.
Conclusion: These story elements are great additions and allow for player's choice, the question is does that support the theory that this game is more of a single player experience rather then an MMO. Take any other RPG that is currently out and ask yourself whats different with that said game compared to SWTOR. An RPG has quests whether or not there called that is besides the point, they are divided into story, character, and optional quests. So the only difference between the two is that SWTOR allows you to group up and do quests together. Granted some RPG allow you to do this, but never to the exact scale or frequency that an MMO does. The problem SWTOR doesn't do this at a scale or frequency that other MMO's do. Maybe because of the division of the world that those quests are on, or mentality, or because there optional, or lastly the reward is not great enough.)
4.) Warzones, Raids, WvW, or any other form PvP (Debatable, but might be the biggest SWTOR doesn't feel like an MMO. Warzones participation is limited to the server in which you play. Does not have an option to pick which Warzone you want to play in. These are all complaints but not real issues. The issues with regards to PvP is the limitation that SWTOR has on the player to interact with other players of an opposing faction. Examples of this is Anchorhead in Tatioone is surrounding by an exhaustion zone which eliminates the possibility of raiding at any time within the game. Another is the worlds of Taris and Balmorra, where they are faction specific leveling zones, much in the same way as the starter areas for any of characters within the game. All three of these worlds have a there own reasons as to why there are issues with them not being PvP oriented or in the case of Tatioone, not PvP friendley. First Tatioone is the first world that both factions visit that they can PvP together. This is huge because before this the only option for PvP was Warzones. Tatioone's model as a whole is great for PvP, however because of the impact that Tatioone has on a player for it being a the first PvP zone it makes everything within that world more important. This fact, reinforces the issue that more so than any other capital in any other world up to that point, Anchorhead and the Sith's capital would be a focal point for raids. I am not dumb in thinking that just by having the exhaustion zone ther,e hasn't fueled that passion further. This leads me to another point on this issue, MMO's are known to have two different kind of servers, PvE and PvP. The distinction between the two is very minute within a grand aspect. However to a player that choice is huge, and one that a player doesn't take lightly. Because on a PvP server players are aware of the danger of being targeted by an opposing faction while questing, resting, or any other aspect of the game. And only ever feel safe when they go to a safe zone, such as the fleet, space dock, ship, or during the initial character starting zone. This is why people play on a PvP server, that want that rush, that feeling there never safe it adds to the experience of the game and is a staple of an MMO. Without it or if you picked a PvE server that experience tends to be more single player like. In regards to SWTOR this feeling of a single player experience is ever more present because of the design and limitation of the game. This limitation can be enforced and proven further because of the design of Taris and Balmorra being class specific and eliminating the possibility of PvP and the experience one would have on a PvP specific server.
Conclusion: The difference between a PvP server and a PvE server with respect to SWTOR as it stands today, are less than any other MMO currently in existence. I understand that the basics of being able to fight with opposing factions within the environment and most worlds and cities on a PvP server still exist, but to assume that not having a PvP zone in what would be a higher level world such as Taris or Balmorra or the fact that the two biggest cities on Tatioone are not able to be raided doesn't lessen the differences between the two servers, would in my mind be wrong and further adds to the cause of a more single player / Co Op experience.)
During this explanation i have not listed a single bug, performance issue, graphics problems, or any other defects SWTOR could have. Everything listed is functioning as designed and intended. I understand that some of what I have addressed is being looked into and in some cases being fixed further down the line. Which gets me to my point, I never said that I wouldn't ever pay for a subscription or that SWTOR doesn't warrant one in the future. I said i wouldn't pay for a subscription at this time because of the things I have listed and the fact that no other single player or Co Op game requires one.
I am asking Bioware/ EA/ Lucas Arts to understand there initial intention for this game during development. This is clearly stated through the interview that was conducted with James Ohlen the game director an i Quote:
"But it is a genre, and we wanted to appeal to fans of that genre - we don't want to turn them away by making something that's radically different. And we wanted to take the lessons that have been developed in that genre over years and years and years and basically refine them, much like other companies do with other genres."
"The expectations on what the game was going to be for a lot of people was kind of different to what we were building. We were building essentially a classic MMO with BioWare storytelling set in the Star Wars universe. And there were a lot of people out there who wanted us to reinvent the universe and come up with a game system that had never been done before. And that was something we weren't doing, so it was going to be disappointing for those people."
Based on those statements, SWTOR should have all the elements that make up a basic MMO at launch. So why are we waiting for some of those elements to be included, waiting for some of those elements to be acknowledged, or even waiting for some of those to be tweaked. Key word within James Ohlen statement was refine, not create, or innovate, it was to refine. That is and was their intention from the onset. So why does SWTOR lack so much of what an MMO consists of to the point that currently it doesn't feel like one. If it isn't an MMO then are we paying a subscription for a single player / Co Op game currently. The game itself or the box or the company all suggest and imply its an MMO, which implies a subscription fee each month.
But if its not or doesn't play like one which they suggest it should be based on the directors vision of what SWTOR is. Why are we having, or will be having to pay a subscription for a single player / Co Op game when its not marketed as one.
Comments
the question mark at the end of your title is odd
I'm Ron Burgundy?
SWTOR shouldnt be a subscription based game due to the fact its KTOR made for pc with a mmo labeled to it. Its no different. With the instances, shards, or population limits on servers, location, etc....... i saw more people playing SWG daily with its 20k -/+ population than i have in a month of playing TOR and its millions of players. I went days inbetween seeing people, chats other than fleet were mostly dead, and it just felt like i was playing a single player game.
This is not a true epic mmo, there are so many limitations it just feels like im playing a rpg on the playstation.
Many will disagree, but hey if you like playing dumbed down console games and paying 15/month for it, by all means do so. I will rent you my KTOR game for 12/month.
In SWTOR defense, just because it's KoToR PC, doesn't mean it shouldn't have a sub fee. Unlike the other single player games, this game offered the most work. Why can't a single player /CORPG have a sub fee?Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Are you really suggesting fees on single player rpgs?? why in the world would that make any sense and how would they justify it?!
Because then every other CORPG or any other Co Op game or single player will follow suit. Compnaies are already looking at SWTOR as a model for subscription fees for single player games with Co Op elements, my opinion.
um excuse me, but last I checked, this was already common for single player games on the consoles, for two generations now. Xbox Live??????
people want the online element, with added bonus, why not pay extra sub to maintain that?
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
And where are the basis for these comments??? If you go to any of the mayor gaming sites that usually ignore MMOs, none of them is talking about having subscriptions for single player games....
If people pay for it, it's justified, pretty simple. The OP can whine all he wants about why it shouldn't be a sub based game, but if the market supports it then the market supports it.
Xbox live has nothing to do with single player games getting subs. Xbox live is a service, just like an MMO can be considered "a service"(I don't buy it on MMOs). There is no service involved in playing a single player game.
Because the point of a sub fee is both to pay for running the servers and addition monthly content.
The latter one seems true so far as they seem to be adding content each month but personally I dont see the point of a persistant server in this game. The game is so divided and instanced that it could might as well be lobby based with an offline mode available because I am spending maybe 75% of my time either in NPC conversations or instanced story areas with only my companion.
Sure I could go out of my ways to find a team but there are little incentives to do so, specially since the most interesting story line, the class story line, can and is more suited to be completed solo with your companion. There is really no need for interaction with other people in this game.
The only two places where I see the need for other players is world PvP which most agree is quite junk. The instanced PvP could be handled in the lobby based way as well so... why do we need to connect to a "persistant" central server for this game again?
My gaming blog
That is exactly the point I am trying to make! there is no subs in single player games BECAUSE people wont pay for it....
I think it would have had less criticsm and more impact and a lot more success had it been buy to play . I can understand why they went for the subcription model given the money invested into it but I dont think its sustainable with this game .
The only way i can put this i guess is that i see more peole while playing vanguard at any time compared to this game..and there is about 5-10k subs in that game..and i maybe pushing the numbers on Vanguard..it does not bode well for this game when the actual players come and make bad comments about a game they so desperately want to play.The pvp seems to be a total balls up.The only thing this game has got going for it is the rpg elements..and even that may not be enough.humans are fickle people with a lack of patience..just look what happened to Vanguard,War,AoC...there are 3 games that should have done exceptionally well..with the exception of War the other 2 on release dropped like a lead ballon because they were not ready for release..and in some aspects,ie,graphical,pvp issues this game looks like one of those.hope not though for bioware's sake.
omgorsh, this made me LOL for real
after I saw he made his puppet account today...I just can't read the novel..
I really wish Bioware had just done another single player KOTOR. and kept the original D&D-esque ruleset. I think it would've done really well.
So this is another "TOR is not an MMO" thread hidden in a giant wall of "I wanted something different" text.
OP, if the game is not worth paying for, don't pay for it. It is an MMO in the vein of every other themepark that has come before it.
I'll really only adress one of you points directly though: A global chat channel would be turned off by the majority of the players because the only ones who would use it would be the attention whores.
I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil
SWTOR has no where to go but trash.
I think its more of a "MMOs should have no sub fees" thread
Meh, could be. But he is specifically calling out TOR without mentioning which MMOs he is willing to subscribe to (if there are any).
Maybe he is one of the fabled "new MMOers" TOR had the potential to bring in.
I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil
I played WoW for many years, like 5. I quit that game 2 years ago and was going to play FF14 but decided to wait untill it comes to a console, with all the fixes. SWTOR caught my interest enough to say okay its time to get into an MMO again. My posts clearly states that at this time it is not an MMO in the traditional since. And why would i pay for a subscription for it, when I can play other single player / Co Op games with no subscription. This is only my opinion but wanted others that feel the same way to have a place to talk and see where this goes. Because i believe this game is borderline single player and could just be the reason for other companies to start charging a sub fee for single player experiences based on SWTOR success. Which i do not want, nor do i think is acceptable.
OP, congratulations !! You win my stupidest person of the week award
Well thanks i guess, wasn't looking for an award. This is just your opinion right?