My point was merely that gaming engines are a big dollar industry that exists because gaming developers do not have the time to build gaming engines if they want to release super powerful awesome games.
Iirc, vanguard bought unreal engine (?) and also heavily mod it themselves. and look at the horrendous bugs and glitch it have during launch. as compare, tor is much much better.
That was because Unreal Engine 2.x (Which they licensed for Vanguard) was never meant to be used for developing MMORPG's. EPIC studios even clearly put a warning on UE 2.x that it was not encouraged to use it for MMO development.
So it always baffled me why Sigil went for UE 2.x and not a different engine.
Unreal Engine 3 on the other hand was much better optimised to be used for MMO development. And will only be more improved for this genre with the next version of Unreal Engine.
Originally posted by SpottyGekko Originally posted by JeroKane
Originally posted by Ringbus
It was a monumental engineering failure to use the Hero Engine. There really are two separate monumental screwups: 1. Buying the junk Hero Engine in the first place 2. Realizing the tech they bought was junk and not starting over with their own in house tech In regards to 1. it is a classic game dev house clueless VP blunder. They see some flashy tech demo with all sorts of marketing bullet points and buzzwords and leap at it. They think they are going to save hundreds of thousands to millions of dollars because they have this magic engine. In regards to 2. it is a complete engineering failure to not stop the project early on after realizing they were in trouble with the crap engine the VP saddled the project with and make it clear that work needs to restart from scratch.
The even more sad thing is, that if they had bothered to google "Hero Engine issues" or just browse the friggin' support forums, they could have prevented themselves from buying it in the first place! The major issues, flaws and lack up to date features has been haunting HeroEngine for years! And the devs working on the engine at HeroEngine corp are as clueless as can be! There was a good reason why Hero's Journey never released! It's now part of the showcase sourcecode demo that comes with the package lol! Anyone tried to sign up for HeroCloud and fired up that game?? My god! What a buggy and extreme laggy mess! Here's how it all started, in the words of the COO of HeroEngine: http://www.heroengine.com/2011/11/heroengine-meets-starwars/ Bioware bought the Hero engine source code before the engine was even up for sale. They were the first customers, so they could hardly "google Hero engine issues" or read the support forums, because there were none in existance at that point. They bought it because it had good development support tools, and probably because they could strike a very good deal.
This all happened in late 2005 or early 2006, at which point they were not part of EA yet, they were only bought out by EA in 2007. Not being part of EA meant that their funds were limited, so their decision was understandable.
The licence deal that Bioware struck with HeroEngine meant they had complete access to the source code, which game them the freedom to change the code as they wished. The engine code was not even completed when they bought it, but the intention was that they would be heavily modifying it themselves.
So in a sense they have "partly" built their game engine themselves, starting off with an already existing code base. We will probably never know to what extent the SWTOR engine differs from what is currently sold as the Hero engine. When BW bought the source code, there were "whole sections of code that were only roughed in and not optimized for performance or security", so it was up to them to develop and complete those areas.
The next few months will be proof as to whether BW "bit off more than they could chew" by deciding to take an existing code base (poorly documented) and changing it to suit their needs.
This
Schoolboy error by Gordon, who clearly had no idea what he had dropped onto his coders laps...basically a huge turd. Simply stating it was uncommented code would be enough for me not to touch it, but undocumented, unsecured, unoptimized and...unfinished.
I wouldn't bother with it even if it was free, how the hell can you work with that? Guess?!..Ahh, it appears so...
Iirc, vanguard bought unreal engine (?) and also heavily mod it themselves. and look at the horrendous bugs and glitch it have during launch. as compare, tor is much much better.
That was because Unreal Engine 2.x (Which they licensed for Vanguard) was never meant to be used for developing MMORPG's. EPIC studios even clearly put a warning on UE 2.x that it was not encouraged to use it for MMO development.
So it always baffled me why Sigil went for UE 2.x and not a different engine.
Unreal Engine 3 on the other hand was much better optimised to be used for MMO development. And will only be more improved for this genre with the next version of Unreal Engine.
Unreal 3 was not the best for MMOS when it was first out thats for sure check out the issues Mortal Online have had a lot of them coming from the Unreal 3 engine.. yeah I know Starvault or whatever they are called are not the best programmers but still the Version of the unreal engine they used did not help at all..
Looking at it now some big MMOs are coming out using the Unreal engine mainly Tera so I guess the issues have been worked out. Sadly I cant get my hands on the full version of the Unreal 3 engine as it costs too much haha
Iirc, vanguard bought unreal engine (?) and also heavily mod it themselves. and look at the horrendous bugs and glitch it have during launch. as compare, tor is much much better.
That was because Unreal Engine 2.x (Which they licensed for Vanguard) was never meant to be used for developing MMORPG's. EPIC studios even clearly put a warning on UE 2.x that it was not encouraged to use it for MMO development.
So it always baffled me why Sigil went for UE 2.x and not a different engine.
Unreal Engine 3 on the other hand was much better optimised to be used for MMO development. And will only be more improved for this genre with the next version of Unreal Engine.
Unreal 3 was not the best for MMOS when it was first out thats for sure check out the issues Mortal Online have had a lot of them coming from the Unreal 3 engine.. yeah I know Starvault or whatever they are called are not the best programmers but still the Version of the unreal engine they used did not help at all..
Looking at it now some big MMOs are coming out using the Unreal engine mainly Tera so I guess the issues have been worked out. Sadly I cant get my hands on the full version of the Unreal 3 engine as it costs too much haha
It was all StarVault's fault! Blaming EPIC for their own shortcomings was just a PR stunt on their part to put the blame elsewhere but themselves! Was pure damage control on their part!
I never understood why EPIC didn't take action against them for slander! But then again... I guess they couldn't be bothered by sueing a bunch of raging clueless schoolboys.
Global Agenda and DCUO were basically developed in roughly the same timeframe and are fine games.
I'd be extremely doubtful, as highlighted somewhere above (probably in multiple places), if Bioware bought the engine without the intention of getting heavily involved at the source level (i.e. slowly rewritting it as they developed).
I'm a game coder (no, really - AI if you're wondering), and the first time I booted up the game I assumed they had used the Odyssey Engine (of KoTOR fame) or perhaps the Eclipse engine (both Bioware engines). It screams Bioware to me and I'd be surprised if a quick look under the hood didn't reveal a lot of the same code from those two engines.
Why did they license an engine, then? I think this is what confuses most of the general public. Personally, I would guess they wanted to take no chances with network code given that it is their first mmorpg. Release-week queues aside, I think they have been vindicated in that choice. They've released a game that 2 million-ish people are playing online and most technical issues people are having are graphical - that's a great success in my book. There is also the fact that by licensing an engine you can start full development right away, rather than waiting 3 years for the code monkeys in the basement to build something the rest of the team can start developing with. Licensing an engine means your code monkeys can wirite the engine while it's being developed on, if that makes sense?
I understand people think engine they think graphics - it's very easy to do when the way most folks recognise an engine is by the graphical style. Even developer studios get sucked in and end up stuck with a crap engine because it has nice graphics, so nobody should feel too bad it. However, I personally think the graphical part of an engine is the easiest (in terms of workforce skills) to slowly strip out and replace. Most (ok, nowadays all) graphical work being handled by a third party API (usually DirectX), meaning the graphical coder is often working at a higher level than other coders (e.g. I often have to work all the way down to 1's and 0's as an AI programmer) and most coders learn the graphical APIs as part of their training, so the skills aren't quick as specialised (at a broad level). Lastly, there is evidence that a lot of the behaviour people are complaining about with regards to graphics is Bioware work. I'm not going to post reams of technical data, you'll just have to take my word on that =D
And lastly, lastly. Yes, Unreal Engine 3 is absolutey crap. Lots of people in the industry rave about it, it has a 65% share of the engine market and I have no idea why. Well, I do. The industry is mostly full of artists and designers who can't code =D
Schoolboy error by Gordon, who clearly had no idea what he had dropped onto his coders laps...basically a huge turd. Simply stating it was uncommented code would be enough for me not to touch it, but undocumented, unsecured, unoptimized and...unfinished.
I wouldn't bother with it even if it was free, how the hell can you work with that? Guess?!..Ahh, it appears so...
Appearently Bioware possesses 800 Oompa Loompas. Those guys can code ANYTHING!
Schoolboy error by Gordon, who clearly had no idea what he had dropped onto his coders laps...basically a huge turd. Simply stating it was uncommented code would be enough for me not to touch it, but undocumented, unsecured, unoptimized and...unfinished.
I wouldn't bother with it even if it was free, how the hell can you work with that? Guess?!..Ahh, it appears so...
Appearently Bioware possesses 800 Oompa Loompas. Those guys can code ANYTHING!
Funny is how everyone is talking about rendering engine, which is probably the last determining factor for MMO engine selection...
But then again, trolling and ranting could not be as rampantly enjoyable with actual understanding the intricacy of MMO/software development.
now thats a pretty dickish comment. If you know something more about the topic like the Ai-Coder who already gave us a lenghty and informative posts, share with us. What youre doing now is trolling.
Funny is how everyone is talking about rendering engine, which is probably the last determining factor for MMO engine selection...
But then again, trolling and ranting could not be as rampantly enjoyable with actual understanding the intricacy of MMO/software development.
now thats a pretty dickish comment. If you know something more about the topic like the Ai-Coder who already gave us a lenghty and informative posts, share with us. What youre doing now is trolling.
There is maybe a small handful of people who would know about this topic and furthermore only a handful would truly grasp the discussion.
Originally posted by mithoss now thats a pretty dickish comment. If you know something more about the topic like the Ai-Coder who already gave us a lenghty and informative posts, share with us. What youre doing now is trolling.
No, I am not trolling.
I am also basically saying the same thing as Linsesh, just not being so nice.
I'd be extremely doubtful, as highlighted somewhere above (probably in multiple places), if Bioware bought the engine without the intention of getting heavily involved at the source level (i.e. slowly rewritting it as they developed).
I'm a game coder (no, really - AI if you're wondering), and the first time I booted up the game I assumed they had used the Odyssey Engine (of KoTOR fame) or perhaps the Eclipse engine (both Bioware engines). It screams Bioware to me and I'd be surprised if a quick look under the hood didn't reveal a lot of the same code from those two engines.
Why did they license an engine, then? I think this is what confuses most of the general public. Personally, I would guess they wanted to take no chances with network code given that it is their first mmorpg. Release-week queues aside, I think they have been vindicated in that choice. They've released a game that 2 million-ish people are playing online and most technical issues people are having are graphical - that's a great success in my book. There is also the fact that by licensing an engine you can start full development right away, rather than waiting 3 years for the code monkeys in the basement to build something the rest of the team can start developing with. Licensing an engine means your code monkeys can wirite the engine while it's being developed on, if that makes sense?
I understand people think engine they think graphics - it's very easy to do when the way most folks recognise an engine is by the graphical style. Even developer studios get sucked in and end up stuck with a crap engine because it has nice graphics, so nobody should feel too bad it. However, I personally think the graphical part of an engine is the easiest (in terms of workforce skills) to slowly strip out and replace. Most (ok, nowadays all) graphical work being handled by a third party API (usually DirectX), meaning the graphical coder is often working at a higher level than other coders (e.g. I often have to work all the way down to 1's and 0's as an AI programmer) and most coders learn the graphical APIs as part of their training, so the skills aren't quick as specialised (at a broad level). Lastly, there is evidence that a lot of the behaviour people are complaining about with regards to graphics is Bioware work. I'm not going to post reams of technical data, you'll just have to take my word on that =D
And lastly, lastly. Yes, Unreal Engine 3 is absolutey crap. Lots of people in the industry rave about it, it has a 65% share of the engine market and I have no idea why. Well, I do. The industry is mostly full of artists and designers who can't code =D
Well my ass wants to learn how to code engines for games. Where do I start?
And lastly, lastly. Yes, Unreal Engine 3 is absolutey crap. Lots of people in the industry rave about it, it has a 65% share of the engine market and I have no idea why.
By default essentially after EA bought RenderWare. Gamebryo was unable to fill the role of RenderWare and they eventually crashed and burned.
And, yes, UE3 is garbage. It really isn't an engine. It is basically just Epic's old code from games they have already shipped while they work on newer tech for their current projects. Pretty much the only thing UE3 is good for is putting out hilariously fake marketing bullshots of stuff covered with shiny normal maps.
It's funny how Bioware has gotten caught trying to use the game's high rez textures in their marketing materials while the actual in game graphics look nothing like that. They pulled the same thing with the Unreal Engine in the previous games by putting out absurdly fake marketing shots using characters and scenes with normal map detail rammped up and high detail materials that weren't possilbe in in game graphics.
So, really, the development time on SWTOR was more like six years, which really erases any excuses about not having enough development time. The fact that the game clearly should have had another 6 to 12 months makes things even worse.
If Bioware bought a very rough, early hero Engine, with a license to be able to modify it to suit their needs and with out access to Hero Engine updates from the original developer, then I guess the problem becomes a lot more about not having the right people to develop the modified engine. I'm guessing that the developers wouldn't have fared any better at making their own from scratch. It doesn't take any of the blame off of the developers, it just amplifies it and makes it more about poor execution than a single bad decision.
Bioware did well with the parts of TOR that most directly draw on their previous game experience. The storyline and related content are pretty good. However, the game is still an MMO and they really failed pretty badly at all the elements of making a good MMO. Early MMOs didn't have a talent pool of people who had designed an MMO before to draw on. They knew what they needed to do and found a way to produce the systems and innovation over solo RPG design needed for the transition. I get the impression that Bioware pulled in a lot of people from failed MMOs, figuring that experience trumped talent when heading into a completely new venture. That may have been the worst decision, since instead of designing an MMORPG from the ground up, with the opportunity of innovating the genre by not being tied down by stale convention, they ended up with a mediocre mish mash of a title that is some how so bad as an MMO that it outweighs the really nice RPG inside the game.
I'm sure the elements that lead to the many failures associated with TOR design are much more numerous and diverse than we could ever imagine, but it's clear something very, very wrong occured here. It's also clear that a poor engine, no matter who get's the blame, is one of the major problems the game has and it probably dictated a number of poor world and game asset design choices as well.
I think the only consolation is that they aren't the biggest MMO screw up by a big company in the least couple years. FFXIV is an even worse fiasco, even more inexplicable since Square Enix already had an MMO using the Final Fantasy i.p. under it's belt.
BTW, I wonder if someone else will get a third crack at producing a good Star Wars MMORPG in a few years? If the gap between SWG and TOR is any indication, Lucas Arts will probably start shopping proposals around in the next 18-24 months. oh, I also wonder if we will get a TOR: NGE too?
Well my ass wants to learn how to code engines for games. Where do I start?
Build a game, you'll have an engine. I don't know what else to advise - I'm not trying to come off as a jerk =D
Pick up a language (I recommend C++), learn an API (I recommend DirectX). If you're completely new to programming, perhaps start off with a language other than C++, maybe Java. I started on the old Basic languages, so I'm not sure of the route nowadays. I'd recommend one of the old procedural languages, but I'm sure there is a more modern way. Oddly enough, a lot of people I meet started out in HTML and JavaScript. Check out places like www.gamedev.net. Anyone reading this who always wondered what coding was about and thought they'd like to try, http://codeyear.com/ is a free gentle introduction to programming pitched at the absolute beginner.
But yeah, it's generally a good idea to build a game, and then another and then another rather than specifically setting out to build an engine. An engine is really just an integrated collection of code for use in a game. The commercial engines (available to individuals) wrap an easy to use UI around that code, but don't get trapped into thinking you need to do the same, If you build a game, you'll have an engine. If you build another, chances are you'll be reusing and building on a lot of the code from the first game. Engine is really just a conveinient moniker, what you need to concentrate on is building a library of code.
And lastly, lastly. Yes, Unreal Engine 3 is absolutey crap. Lots of people in the industry rave about it, it has a 65% share of the engine market and I have no idea why.
By default essentially after EA bought RenderWare. Gamebryo was unable to fill the role of RenderWare and they eventually crashed and burned.
And, yes, UE3 is garbage. It really isn't an engine. It is basically just Epic's old code from games they have already shipped while they work on newer tech for their current projects. Pretty much the only thing UE3 is good for is putting out hilariously fake marketing bullshots of stuff covered with shiny normal maps.
It's funny how Bioware has gotten caught trying to use the game's high rez textures in their marketing materials while the actual in game graphics look nothing like that. They pulled the same thing with the Unreal Engine in the previous games by putting out absurdly fake marketing shots using characters and scenes with normal map detail rammped up and high detail materials that weren't possilbe in in game graphics.
Ehh what?? Most of those promotion shots were actually from Gears of Wars currently under development at that time!
It was one of the showcase games at that time, together with Unreal Tournament 3!
Maybe you had a crappy computer at that time and couldn't ramp up the graphic options, but I ran both Gears of Wars on Xbox360 and Unreal Tournament 3 on PC at MAX settings and especially Unreal Tournament looked EXACTLY like the promotions shots.
You almost start to make us believe you work for some butt hurt competitor or something.
Originally posted by JeroKane At it's core it's still HeroEngine. The flaws, limitations, lack of up to date tech (DX10, DX11, weather effects, day/night cycle, etc) will always be there... unless EA is willing to spend money on some expensive developers that can build in that kind of tech. And as EA is known for their cheapskating behavior... we all know that is never gonna happen. Especially now after the dissapointing initial sales and amount of people subscribing to the game... you can bet they gonna swing their axe through the studio soon. Sertainly not adding even more developers!
They don't need to support post dx9 libraries. A large number of consumers would not have the required hardware use them.
Thus, The golden mmo rule: Make it run on as many systems as possible to maximize potential customers, and therefore profits.
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
They don't need to support post dx9 libraries. A large number of consumers would not have the required hardware use them.
Thus, The golden mmo rule: Make it run on as many systems as possible to maximize potential customers, and therefore profits.
so basically, Bioware failed miserably at this rule. I have a radeon 5770 an a triple core 3 ghz with 4 gb ram. Guess what? the game runs like shit. What has Bioware to say about this performance problem? They say there are no problems, just old rigs. Biowares *nananana i cant hear you*-policy regarding criticism just baffles me.
At it's core it's still HeroEngine. The flaws, limitations, lack of up to date tech (DX10, DX11, weather effects, day/night cycle, etc) will always be there... unless EA is willing to spend money on some expensive developers that can build in that kind of tech.
And as EA is known for their cheapskating behavior... we all know that is never gonna happen. Especially now after the dissapointing initial sales and amount of people subscribing to the game... you can bet they gonna swing their axe through the studio soon. Sertainly not adding even more developers!
They don't need to support post dx9 libraries. A large number of consumers would not have the required hardware use them.
Thus, The golden mmo rule: Make it run on as many systems as possible to maximize potential customers, and therefore profits.
Ehh... that's why LOTRO has options to run it under DX9, DX10 or DX11 depending on the hardware you have. /shrug
Comments
as compare, tor is much much better.
RIP Orc Choppa
This is simply not true.
That was because Unreal Engine 2.x (Which they licensed for Vanguard) was never meant to be used for developing MMORPG's. EPIC studios even clearly put a warning on UE 2.x that it was not encouraged to use it for MMO development.
So it always baffled me why Sigil went for UE 2.x and not a different engine.
Unreal Engine 3 on the other hand was much better optimised to be used for MMO development. And will only be more improved for this genre with the next version of Unreal Engine.
The major issues, flaws and lack up to date features has been haunting HeroEngine for years! And the devs working on the engine at HeroEngine corp are as clueless as can be!
There was a good reason why Hero's Journey never released! It's now part of the showcase sourcecode demo that comes with the package lol!
Anyone tried to sign up for HeroCloud and fired up that game?? My god! What a buggy and extreme laggy mess!
Here's how it all started, in the words of the COO of HeroEngine:
http://www.heroengine.com/2011/11/heroengine-meets-starwars/
Bioware bought the Hero engine source code before the engine was even up for sale. They were the first customers, so they could hardly "google Hero engine issues" or read the support forums, because there were none in existance at that point. They bought it because it had good development support tools, and probably because they could strike a very good deal.
This all happened in late 2005 or early 2006, at which point they were not part of EA yet, they were only bought out by EA in 2007. Not being part of EA meant that their funds were limited, so their decision was understandable.
The licence deal that Bioware struck with HeroEngine meant they had complete access to the source code, which game them the freedom to change the code as they wished. The engine code was not even completed when they bought it, but the intention was that they would be heavily modifying it themselves.
So in a sense they have "partly" built their game engine themselves, starting off with an already existing code base. We will probably never know to what extent the SWTOR engine differs from what is currently sold as the Hero engine. When BW bought the source code, there were "whole sections of code that were only roughed in and not optimized for performance or security", so it was up to them to develop and complete those areas.
The next few months will be proof as to whether BW "bit off more than they could chew" by deciding to take an existing code base (poorly documented) and changing it to suit their needs.
This
Schoolboy error by Gordon, who clearly had no idea what he had dropped onto his coders laps...basically a huge turd. Simply stating it was uncommented code would be enough for me not to touch it, but undocumented, unsecured, unoptimized and...unfinished.
I wouldn't bother with it even if it was free, how the hell can you work with that? Guess?!..Ahh, it appears so...
Unreal 3 was not the best for MMOS when it was first out thats for sure check out the issues Mortal Online have had a lot of them coming from the Unreal 3 engine.. yeah I know Starvault or whatever they are called are not the best programmers but still the Version of the unreal engine they used did not help at all..
Looking at it now some big MMOs are coming out using the Unreal engine mainly Tera so I guess the issues have been worked out. Sadly I cant get my hands on the full version of the Unreal 3 engine as it costs too much haha
It was all StarVault's fault! Blaming EPIC for their own shortcomings was just a PR stunt on their part to put the blame elsewhere but themselves! Was pure damage control on their part!
I never understood why EPIC didn't take action against them for slander! But then again... I guess they couldn't be bothered by sueing a bunch of raging clueless schoolboys.
Global Agenda and DCUO were basically developed in roughly the same timeframe and are fine games.
yes. and no, build, not licensed unreal 3. I think everyone knows how shitty u3 engine is.
I'd be extremely doubtful, as highlighted somewhere above (probably in multiple places), if Bioware bought the engine without the intention of getting heavily involved at the source level (i.e. slowly rewritting it as they developed).
I'm a game coder (no, really - AI if you're wondering), and the first time I booted up the game I assumed they had used the Odyssey Engine (of KoTOR fame) or perhaps the Eclipse engine (both Bioware engines). It screams Bioware to me and I'd be surprised if a quick look under the hood didn't reveal a lot of the same code from those two engines.
Why did they license an engine, then? I think this is what confuses most of the general public. Personally, I would guess they wanted to take no chances with network code given that it is their first mmorpg. Release-week queues aside, I think they have been vindicated in that choice. They've released a game that 2 million-ish people are playing online and most technical issues people are having are graphical - that's a great success in my book. There is also the fact that by licensing an engine you can start full development right away, rather than waiting 3 years for the code monkeys in the basement to build something the rest of the team can start developing with. Licensing an engine means your code monkeys can wirite the engine while it's being developed on, if that makes sense?
I understand people think engine they think graphics - it's very easy to do when the way most folks recognise an engine is by the graphical style. Even developer studios get sucked in and end up stuck with a crap engine because it has nice graphics, so nobody should feel too bad it. However, I personally think the graphical part of an engine is the easiest (in terms of workforce skills) to slowly strip out and replace. Most (ok, nowadays all) graphical work being handled by a third party API (usually DirectX), meaning the graphical coder is often working at a higher level than other coders (e.g. I often have to work all the way down to 1's and 0's as an AI programmer) and most coders learn the graphical APIs as part of their training, so the skills aren't quick as specialised (at a broad level). Lastly, there is evidence that a lot of the behaviour people are complaining about with regards to graphics is Bioware work. I'm not going to post reams of technical data, you'll just have to take my word on that =D
And lastly, lastly. Yes, Unreal Engine 3 is absolutey crap. Lots of people in the industry rave about it, it has a 65% share of the engine market and I have no idea why. Well, I do. The industry is mostly full of artists and designers who can't code =D
Appearently Bioware possesses 800 Oompa Loompas. Those guys can code ANYTHING!
Ahem, they are called Jawa's ... duh.
Funny is how everyone is talking about rendering engine, which is probably the last determining factor for MMO engine selection...
But then again, trolling and ranting could not be as rampantly enjoyable with actual understanding the intricacy of MMO/software development.
now thats a pretty dickish comment. If you know something more about the topic like the Ai-Coder who already gave us a lenghty and informative posts, share with us. What youre doing now is trolling.
There is maybe a small handful of people who would know about this topic and furthermore only a handful would truly grasp the discussion.
People like to poast-n-boast.
No, I am not trolling.
I am also basically saying the same thing as Linsesh, just not being so nice.
btw great post Linsesh.
No, they should have used CryEngine 2 or 3.
My gaming blog
Well my ass wants to learn how to code engines for games. Where do I start?Philosophy of MMO Game Design
By default essentially after EA bought RenderWare. Gamebryo was unable to fill the role of RenderWare and they eventually crashed and burned.
And, yes, UE3 is garbage. It really isn't an engine. It is basically just Epic's old code from games they have already shipped while they work on newer tech for their current projects. Pretty much the only thing UE3 is good for is putting out hilariously fake marketing bullshots of stuff covered with shiny normal maps.
It's funny how Bioware has gotten caught trying to use the game's high rez textures in their marketing materials while the actual in game graphics look nothing like that. They pulled the same thing with the Unreal Engine in the previous games by putting out absurdly fake marketing shots using characters and scenes with normal map detail rammped up and high detail materials that weren't possilbe in in game graphics.
So, really, the development time on SWTOR was more like six years, which really erases any excuses about not having enough development time. The fact that the game clearly should have had another 6 to 12 months makes things even worse.
If Bioware bought a very rough, early hero Engine, with a license to be able to modify it to suit their needs and with out access to Hero Engine updates from the original developer, then I guess the problem becomes a lot more about not having the right people to develop the modified engine. I'm guessing that the developers wouldn't have fared any better at making their own from scratch. It doesn't take any of the blame off of the developers, it just amplifies it and makes it more about poor execution than a single bad decision.
Bioware did well with the parts of TOR that most directly draw on their previous game experience. The storyline and related content are pretty good. However, the game is still an MMO and they really failed pretty badly at all the elements of making a good MMO. Early MMOs didn't have a talent pool of people who had designed an MMO before to draw on. They knew what they needed to do and found a way to produce the systems and innovation over solo RPG design needed for the transition. I get the impression that Bioware pulled in a lot of people from failed MMOs, figuring that experience trumped talent when heading into a completely new venture. That may have been the worst decision, since instead of designing an MMORPG from the ground up, with the opportunity of innovating the genre by not being tied down by stale convention, they ended up with a mediocre mish mash of a title that is some how so bad as an MMO that it outweighs the really nice RPG inside the game.
I'm sure the elements that lead to the many failures associated with TOR design are much more numerous and diverse than we could ever imagine, but it's clear something very, very wrong occured here. It's also clear that a poor engine, no matter who get's the blame, is one of the major problems the game has and it probably dictated a number of poor world and game asset design choices as well.
I think the only consolation is that they aren't the biggest MMO screw up by a big company in the least couple years. FFXIV is an even worse fiasco, even more inexplicable since Square Enix already had an MMO using the Final Fantasy i.p. under it's belt.
BTW, I wonder if someone else will get a third crack at producing a good Star Wars MMORPG in a few years? If the gap between SWG and TOR is any indication, Lucas Arts will probably start shopping proposals around in the next 18-24 months. oh, I also wonder if we will get a TOR: NGE too?
Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
that's what you get trying to build a porsche with a v-dub.
Build a game, you'll have an engine. I don't know what else to advise - I'm not trying to come off as a jerk =D
Pick up a language (I recommend C++), learn an API (I recommend DirectX). If you're completely new to programming, perhaps start off with a language other than C++, maybe Java. I started on the old Basic languages, so I'm not sure of the route nowadays. I'd recommend one of the old procedural languages, but I'm sure there is a more modern way. Oddly enough, a lot of people I meet started out in HTML and JavaScript. Check out places like www.gamedev.net. Anyone reading this who always wondered what coding was about and thought they'd like to try, http://codeyear.com/ is a free gentle introduction to programming pitched at the absolute beginner.
But yeah, it's generally a good idea to build a game, and then another and then another rather than specifically setting out to build an engine. An engine is really just an integrated collection of code for use in a game. The commercial engines (available to individuals) wrap an easy to use UI around that code, but don't get trapped into thinking you need to do the same, If you build a game, you'll have an engine. If you build another, chances are you'll be reusing and building on a lot of the code from the first game. Engine is really just a conveinient moniker, what you need to concentrate on is building a library of code.
Ehh what?? Most of those promotion shots were actually from Gears of Wars currently under development at that time!
It was one of the showcase games at that time, together with Unreal Tournament 3!
Maybe you had a crappy computer at that time and couldn't ramp up the graphic options, but I ran both Gears of Wars on Xbox360 and Unreal Tournament 3 on PC at MAX settings and especially Unreal Tournament looked EXACTLY like the promotions shots.
You almost start to make us believe you work for some butt hurt competitor or something.
It seems a lot of you people dont have any clue about the Herocloud.
It is not only a engine.
Its Lego MMO games building box.
All in all im not happy with modern concepts of Multiplayer RPG games nowadays.
Especially the instancing and zoning to a different area is most anoying, not only in SWTOR.
While everyone compares to WoW, all these servers were a laught already.
"Play with millions of others" (on different servers on different instances)
What a crap, no sorry, its not what i want.
Maybe a game suxx if it has more then 3 servers ?
They don't need to support post dx9 libraries. A large number of consumers would not have the required hardware use them.
Thus, The golden mmo rule: Make it run on as many systems as possible to maximize potential customers, and therefore profits.
TSW - AoC - Aion - WOW - EVE - Fallen Earth - Co - Rift - || XNA C# Java Development
so basically, Bioware failed miserably at this rule. I have a radeon 5770 an a triple core 3 ghz with 4 gb ram. Guess what? the game runs like shit. What has Bioware to say about this performance problem? They say there are no problems, just old rigs. Biowares *nananana i cant hear you*-policy regarding criticism just baffles me.
Ehh... that's why LOTRO has options to run it under DX9, DX10 or DX11 depending on the hardware you have. /shrug