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Open PvP - Total chaos?
FutureMMO
Member Posts: 47
Hey guys,
I wanted to give you an example of open PvP World, but such that you could actually attack and kill any player, even the one on your side. Say, you start the game at some place and you realize you could attack and get attacked by any player at any moment. Now I have a few questions:
1. Please give me a scenario of how would this work? Would this mean a complete chaos right off the start?
2. Let's say you know you can attack anyone around you at any time and you know the game is based on loot-player system, where you could take his stuff or most of it after defeating him. Would you be tempted to attack other players? Would others be tempted to attack everyone else?
3. In this case, would this mean that certain groups would have to form in order to... survive? So, either you join some team or stay around certain area not to get killed?
4. Would knowing that there are heavy consequences to attacking other players in certain areas make you at least think twice about starting a fight? Say, some areas would be controlled by NPC's and/or players who maintain order.
5. The fact that you can loot other players obviously means that if you get defeated, you could loose most of your items. Would this be concidered a consequence and perhaps stop you or at least make you think twice before starting a fight with players that are on your side/faction?
You should know what my point is based on the questions I posted. So, please take a moment and elaborate on each of the questions and add some ideas/comments.
Thanks a lot!
i7@4.2Ghz, 12GB@1600Mhz, GTx580 SLi, 1920x1080@120Hz, 7.1 Creative Gigaworks S750
162 Original PC Game collection. Surprisingly not a virgin.
Comments
C'mon guys, someone has to have something to say about this. I am sure some of you have been thinking about this concept before.
I personally think that players would attack others and start fight either to loot other pleyer, start the fight for no reason at all or just to be annoying. I think the reason why there is no such game is because DEV's don't think enough (or maybe don't want to do all this work) about ways to prevent this from turning into a total chaos. I think if the player knows that there can be some heavy consequences for his actions, then it would stop most (if not all) from causing chaos.
Say, some player with level 15 and some decent weapon comes into a town and wants to attack low levels just to loot them or for the hell of it, just because he can. What if he knew that in this certain town or area there could be an NPC which will come up to him, lift him up in the air by his neck and smash him with one hit. Well, even this could not be enough because he could just spawn in the nearby area with no real punishment... big deal. So, let's add... after getting punished by the NPC (or other players) will cause him to loose some of his items and other items get damaged which are expensive to fix. Now this is a heavy consequence. We could also add that the reputation in this town/district/area or whatever, drops lower... and very soon it will drop to the point that no one will trade with him and at some point even turn him into a hostile.
Let me see your point of view on open PvP and ability to attack ANYONE at ANYTIME, but considering the points I mentioned above.
Thanks!
i7@4.2Ghz, 12GB@1600Mhz, GTx580 SLi, 1920x1080@120Hz, 7.1 Creative Gigaworks S750
162 Original PC Game collection. Surprisingly not a virgin.
Do some basic research. Check out DFO, MO and what players say about full loot pvp. Check out ArchAge and what they will try to do to control these problems.
What are your views on the systems used by EVE and UO?
As rounner above mentioned, you might want to do a bit of research, as similar systems ahve been in place in various MMOs for quite a while now.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
I am not familiar with UO.
As to EVE... I was quite pleased with the Character Creator... I was amazed with the Economy and the structure. As soon as I got into "combat" if you can even call it that... I almost fell asleep and it was the end of it. The surroundings are just way too plain...even though it's space... but visually way too plain and the fighting is pretty much point and click which was extremely dull.
So, I did not play long enough to experience the game. Although I did get destroyed by some random higher level ship when I was still low level... and I thought that's how it should be. I engaged in this game... there are risks of getting destroyed... fine.
Do I think it was ok for him to just own me like that even though I had no chance at all? No, I think it was low and cheap. Would I be more careful next time before I fly somewhere else? Definitely.
i7@4.2Ghz, 12GB@1600Mhz, GTx580 SLi, 1920x1080@120Hz, 7.1 Creative Gigaworks S750
162 Original PC Game collection. Surprisingly not a virgin.
Btw, if you got blown up in EVE, you likely didn't understand the rules about security levels in each star system... or you did, and you just wanted to experience PvP from the start... in which case, this should have been expected.
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Lol? Is this a discussion on open PVP or your bad experience with EvE? I'm confused. You dont need to get into the game to know how it works. There are tons of articles on how pvp in EvE is, granted some are over the top, but most explains the mechanics. Which you should btw.
FFA MMOs are very, very hostile places where vicious people in thier vicious little communities get their rocks off by forming roving gank squads to patrol newbie areas, and in which you can't trust anybody.
You've got your occasional Robin Hoods, but they don't tend to play for long. Neither do the 'sheep' that the 'wolves' like to feed on.
Some people like these kinds of communities. Some people are terrible people.
Eve has it all:
- FFA PVP in 0.0
- Guarded Highsec (You can still attack everybody but will die too)
Is EvE Chaos? No.
Alliances rule Nullsec and if you are friend of the ruler you will be safe in the area you are living but still will be attacked by other factions/alliances.
In Highsec Concorde(NPCs) is guarding you. You still can be killed but your opponent will die too. Cause of this Highsec is actually really safe for most of the people.
=> You are wrong there is no chaos cause eve got everything you asked for and is rather structured in a political landscape with friends and foes now.
Open world full loot PVP should be the way MMORPGS are made full stop, i love it..
Been playing Darkfall for ages now and ive had some of the best times playing that game.. The fact that you could just loose everything you have on you brings somthing else to the game it can be such a buzz..
Sure you have to work with other people for it to really be fun but thats what MMORPGs are for
I love this type of game and im not a person to go around just ganking whoever for no reason but I dont mind the game having that in it as i said it brings an element of risk to the game that you jsut dont get with your average themepark game..
Imo total ffa full loot PvP game could work only if there was almost no difference in power between players, ie if it worked similar to online FPSs with no progression except cosmetic ones.
What DF and MO are doing is totally misguided imo. FFA full loot + steep character progression curve = pointless bullying hell.
it takes tasks that are menial in other games like banking items, harvesting, travelling anywhere, and finding good spots to level, and makes them 1000000000000% more fun.
Also the sense of self-policing in FFA games is awesome. Most people who play have some sort of honor and will help if someone is being a total jerk. Plus, don't like how that guy is stealing all the mobs you're trying to grind? Kill him
Hard to take the OP serious, as I read it I was sure it was some sort of baiting attempt to get everyone to agree that a FFA PVP, full loot game was a superior idea.
As others have mentioned, its been done before, in UO, DFO, and MO just to name a few.
The titles that generally fair better are those that have controls in place that let players have some control over the level of risk they are willing to accept. (a la EVE)
Truth is, FFA PVP'ers need sheep to prey on, however sheep aren't stupid, if there's no chance of peacefully thriving they'll go find somewhere else to live where there are no wolves.
And one thing we have learned is wolves rarely like to attack each other, probably too much of a challenge which isn't what many of them are looking for.
So the simple answer is, yes, in a totally unrestricted PVP environment players generally act as badly as possible since there really aren't any consequences for doing so. (in fact, the game rewards them with loot that someone else worked for....score)
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Dont agree at all.
MO was a buggy game from the start most of the features didnt even exist...
Darkfall has been pretty active over the years, the character lvling process did take way too long at the start but they fixed that by speeding up the skills gains a few times over the years, at the point its at now its pretty good. What killed Darkfall off now are thr stupid devs danglnig a possible server wipe in front of everyone.. so everyone left.. Will have to see what happens when they release Darkfall 2.0. Yes vets in these gaems will be more skilled that new players but thats how it should be.. in groups anyone is fine. MMORPGs are designed to be played with other people.
The only reason I haven't gone back. And by them not saying anything it makes me think it's going to happen. If they said it was going to be wiped then nobody would play besides a few fanatics.
Sorry, but I played DF and I loved absolutely everything about the game except the ridiculous differences in player power. My experience is direct opposite to what proponents of FFA PvP as it is now tout - that it is the unpredictability which is fun. What unpredictability when you are 100 % sure how a fight is going to end before it even begins?
If they opened up a DF server with NO character progression except money, fluff and territorial warfare I'd play it like a spasmo, but those steep char power curves are a total PvP killer. I mean, in SW:TOR everybody was up in arms because there is no tiering in battlegrounds... but it is somehow OK when it's on 24/7 everywhere you go?
Imo the first mmo with territorial open PvP warfare and NO ridiculous character progression taken straight out of single-player games is going to take off like a rocket. Imo those devs should have played more GURPS and less D&D as kids. Unlike D&D where a tank can drive over you if you're high enough level, in gurps a total newb can still slit the throat of a fully maxed out character.
I find it utterly ridiculous how this old school sandbox crowd keeps screaming for "realism" while their character progression mechanics are unrealistic to the extreme. Yes, I could be a 100 pound weakling but I can still put a bullet in a SEALs forhead if I get lucky. However, the mmo dev crowd are still living in this "RPG IS ABOUT PROGRESSION" mode and imo there is no chance this will change soon.
Ironically, the only hope I see for proper FFA sandbox mmorpg coming up is from the FPS crowd. Firefall and Planetside 2 are onto something because they're not stuck with this "PROGRESSION" munchkin bs. Mark my words - they will create really popular sandbox mmoprgs while the mmorpg crowd will keep lining up failures because they are trying to combine massively online gameplay with character progression systems designed for linear single-player games. It's sad.
edit - "Yes vets in these gaems will be more skilled that new players" You're joking right? How the hell do I know if a vet is "more skilled" than me if he's got like 10x the hp I have and dishes out 10x more DPS? It's just stupid. It would make sense in a single-player linear content tiered game but in PvP environment it's just abusive and ulitmately dull. "Hey, I know! Let's make BF4 where players double their HP and damage every month they play! -Awesome idea, young designer, here's the phone number for your local Wal-Mart. I hear they're offering jobs there."
Spot on, and an environment where both sheep and wolves can thrive in healthy numbers is probably more authentic than a playing field that tries to make everyone equal/the same.
I have had some real fun with open pvp games/servers. Many are turned off by it because it interupts their solo play, and they hear or have been ganked a few times. But there are many ways to prevent this that people dont use (grouping, awareness, etc).
I have been ganked a few times, but throughout the many mmo's i have played it hasnt effected my fun times. It feels more real but can be a pain getting caught with your pants down.
Archeage will have a jail system which is kinda cool to help prevent these things.
Open world pvp for a game that control of something (city, planets, etc) is ok and fun in my book.
But randome no meaning open pvp where a high level can jump a low level or get ganked over and over for being in the wrong area i tend not to take part in.
It can be fun, but depends on the community. Here neither is the best way or thing to do, its totaly up to the gamer. Do i want to see open pvp gone? No, it can bring fun. But the community and game mechanics need to help protect the new players and provide a good experience.
This ^
UO was made infinitely better when they split Trammel and Felucca, because people could organize and group up on the Trammel side and have some control over their fate when they stepped through the Moonstone to Felucca.
And shortly after they added the 4-way Faction warfare mechanics, and Felucca became even more popular and populated than it EVER was pre-Trammel.
It's amazing that after all these years, some people still can't grasp the concept that CHOICE IS GOOD and any system that forces players to play a certain way will fail.
The "whiners" are usually the wolves who prayed on the sheep, and they start crying when the sheep have the time and space to grow strong and turn around and give them a fair fight.
They don't like fair fights. They like ganking and griefing.
I'd still LOVE to see a new MMO that took the concept of a mirror image - PvP world and PvE world on the SAME SERVER with all the happy fun faction vs. faction vs. faction vs. faction of classic UO game play.
Of course UO also had the PK's and the two morality factions, PK/Anti-PK but I can't remember the names... Order and Chaos was it?
Council of Mages Atlantic FTW!
the OP just described the PvP servers on Runes of Magic.... you get attacked anywhere but if you get ganked in town the guards rape the ganker, but still you died....
EDIT: if not well managed you actually end up with something like RoM where high level rogues roam the starting areas sltealthed and stabbing every low level
I'd say in order for FFA PVP to actually thrive, the game/world has to have more to it than "zomg I canz kill any1!". If FFA PVP is the only point of the game, it's nothing more than a shooter variant with persisent toons.
I'd also offer that exponential character "power" progression is also incompatible with FFA PVP.
The main complaint is of course "griefing". Griefing derives solely from lack of consequence and pointlessness of PVP in the world. Permadeath + narrow-power-gaps + more-than-cardboard-NPCs = end of griefing.
What if you added AIM to attack to FFA full loot + steep character progression?
I think games like Battlefield 3 have a bit of it there... where you see high ranked players with better weapons and abilities getting their asses kicked by low ranked players. I believe that adding aim and attack FPS style to MMORPG game changes everything because even if you have a really good gear but you simply are not good at fighting... then you will get your ass kicked by lowbies that are simply skilled.
What do you think?
i7@4.2Ghz, 12GB@1600Mhz, GTx580 SLi, 1920x1080@120Hz, 7.1 Creative Gigaworks S750
162 Original PC Game collection. Surprisingly not a virgin.
I am only trying to understand and see what you guys are thinking about this. So, I'm not trying to get anyone to agree on anything.
You make some good points.
i7@4.2Ghz, 12GB@1600Mhz, GTx580 SLi, 1920x1080@120Hz, 7.1 Creative Gigaworks S750
162 Original PC Game collection. Surprisingly not a virgin.
I agree 100%
i7@4.2Ghz, 12GB@1600Mhz, GTx580 SLi, 1920x1080@120Hz, 7.1 Creative Gigaworks S750
162 Original PC Game collection. Surprisingly not a virgin.
i think what MO got right was the way skilling up your character is a very casual affiar, with a little know how you can match a veterans skills within a couple of weeks in regards to artiffical game skills. So it really is more of an actual player skill as oppossed to any mechanics giving player who played far lnoger way more helath like in darkfall. Gear isnt to difficult to get in MO either and even the basic equipment is effective in the right hands.
I think what MO needs to improve upon is its punishment for random murder, theres needs to be more of a potential punishment for murderers.
there are 2 types of mmo, imitators and innovaters.
This post is so full of win. GURPS style character design AND progression would be great in an MMO. Sure, you'd still have munchkinism / min-max, but by keeping characters within a given (small) range of CPs, there would be no exponentially more powerful characters.