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How to make world pvp work again?
Senerius
Member UncommonPosts: 76
World pvp has always been my favorite hobby ever since the beta if UO. However true open world pvp has gone the way of the dodo. I have often wondered if it is possible to bring back the glory days of Open World non instanced pvp.
I cuurently know of only two ways to bring back open world pvp.
1.) FFA(no factions) pvp with objectives. Be it world bosses, a ranking system, armor ect
2. At least three factions with objectives. Be it world bosses, a ranking system, armor ect
Sorry guys two factions do not balance out WOW SWTOR RIFT and countless other games have proven their will always be population inbalances in a two faction game.
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Comments
My take is world pvp games can not have instanced pvp. Else people will just hide in it and farm whatever honor/contribution.
At least that's what I felt about warhammer and fallen earth.
And the thing with FFA pvp. I hope it have more to do with territory control. I'm playing darkfall, and all it felt was a gank fest. That just make no room for pver or semi pver. I'm hoping it'll focus on terriotry control/
Get rid of stupid battlegrounds and use quests to give honor points.Or do away with pvp gear all together.Whats the point of building a large world if no one is in it?Wow has a giant world and it's empty.Everyone is always in BGs.It's dumb.
Not everyone thinks early UO was actually a good model to be nostalgic about. You had a lot of people there who didn't want to be a part of PvP in the first place - and you will never have that again.
Heh , only way to fix this is to head back in time and make sure WoW never gets release. We had a great mature MMO community back in the day before WoW got out. Now , forget about it , too many selfish kids that only think about personal stats and such. A real pity , because back in the 90's we were all wondering how awesome the future of MMO's would be like , well it ended up being pretty crappy hehe :P
I think a set up like DAoC would work. Faction based with wild frontiers for the pvp and the normal lands safe.
Nah, you guys got it all wrong.
For open PvP to work well, think back of UO's older pvp system. Get rid of all those super stat'ed out gear and keep it straight crafted, then you'd really have nothing to lose because all the stuff you have can be bought / crafted. Sure UO had some nice stat boosting gear. BUT point being even though someone had those types of gear, you'd still have a good chance of beating them with crafted gear.
Get rid of all those stupid PvP achievements and rank system crap, then you wouldn't have so much of those type of people who grief / camp / kill on sight mind set. Its supposed to be fun and competitive for people WITH SKILLS instead of people who get to max level / skill points ASAP just so they can collect their precious "end game" PvP gear.
UO's selling point was NOT pvping. It was the freedom of choice to do just about anything you want, be whoever you want. A game that focuses heavily just on PvP will never get far. There's more to a game than just to PvP.
BTW UO's 2 faction Order and Chaos worked just fine. You just didn't have to deal with douchebags back in the day as you do now. There was more respect among players in the old generation of gamers than now. Just because you are in a different faction from someone else does not necessarily mean that you had to go at it all the time when you see each other.
I like SWG's system where you could be covert or neutral. That way when you didn't want to PvP you didn't have to, but it closed some gameplay doors to you. It gave non-pvpers a chance to play the game as they wish, and PvPers the ability to relax and even get to know the people you fought. Friendly rivalries are fun, and you don't really get that in the modern 2 faction system.
I dislike PvP lakes.
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- No instanced PvP
- No seperate PvP gear, builds, or stats
- No ganking / griefing / FFA
- No two faction system
I agree with
csthao
That's the thing. Alot of people playing UO don't want to be ganked or griefed.
There's alot of complaint when UO add in pve server, and people say it breaks the community. But why are you forcing people that dont' want to pvp to pvp? If people dont' want to pvp they shouldn't be forced to be the sheep and let you gank them.
Another thing is in games like UO or Eve. There's probably more thing to do beside pvp. But when you take in account for games like daoc or warhammer, you pvp 100% of the time. So you have to have more than 2 faction so one won't overpower the other.
Honestly I think no factions doesnt really work unless you work hard and encourage your Playerbase to form Guild factions or whatever so to me it needs:
1) 3 factions. If you want clear distinctions (which I myself am not fussed about, good and evil is just a matter of opinion) they would be Good, Bad & Mercenary.
2) PvP needs a point beyond just farming honour or tokens for pvp gear. Let the players take (siege) and control entire towns, zones or landmarks to the point it actually effects players from other factions. Let A faction control the only convenient bridge or seaside port to another zone, if players from another faction want to come through they have to take the long way around to an alternate crossing or travel overland the long way, this would provide motivation to take it back.
3) If you want to incorporate Open PvP and PvE zones together then maybe do what WAR did with safe PvE areas and Open PvP areas on the same map. Again worthy reasons to enter PvP zones are interesting things to do which you need to provide. Alternatively (though not as good) allow each zone to have a PvE and a PvP instance, if you leave one zone from a PvP instance it sends you to the PvP instance of the one you just moved to etc.
4) System that allows players to post a bounty against other players, this needs to include the ability for multiple players to contribute to and to increase the bounty on targets. ie: if I post a bounty of 500 gold on l337killer and then another player tries to post a bounty of 1000 gold against l337killer the bounty system would give the second player the option to increase the original bounty on l337killer to 1500 gold.
#4 Will never ever work. So say you created a PK character and go on a killing spree. People add in the bounty to take you down, sure ok, whatever. Now you get some of your friends to go check on the bounty for the price of your "head." Ok the bounty for your death is at 1 million gold. Then you get your friend(s) to kill you turn you in and collect the money. All profit for a little cost. Split the money and go on about your buisness. UO had a similar system like this and it was abused upon so bad that they took it out.
Most people see through the shallow casual-ness of world PVP, but if you want it it's still in EVE and Darkfall.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Of course people wouldn't want to get ganked or griefed, but you have to understand what I was saying. You rarely come across people like that back in those day and age. You just had OUT SMART people like that, just stay away from places that are known PK hot spots. UO was a huge world ( I was 13 yrs old at the time I was playing apparently it was big from my perspective) find escape routes, build up your hide skill, use invisibility scrolls, etc etc.
The main point that was good with UO was the fact that even if you died, you didn't have alot to lose. Sure you get ganked and you get setback a few mins, just run around look for a wandering healer priest. Avoid the spot where you got ganked move on. When they made the Trammel faucet to cater for PvE players it defeated the whole purpose of a community, its like making another instance, it seperates people. Which is why you have MMO's that are out now. People only moved into Trammel because thats where the people were. You NEED interaction with players.
Multifaction based PvP will never work WELL (DAOC is an exception). Just take a look at most faction pvp mmos out there right now. There will always be one side having more population than the other no matter how many faction there is. And now its basically a zerg / gank fest contest. Sure some servers might be balanced out, but when you have the "griefed" players on a different server being over run by one faction and when they switched to the more balanced population servers, it will tip in favor of a different faction.
I think the only way world pvp can ever work again is the Asheron's Call way. You have your pve servers where people can flag if they want to pk lite and then you have one dedicated server for ffa pvp like darktide. You put all the pvp apples on one server with no instancing or battlegrounds.
Then you also have to have a very open sandboxy type game as well that focuses on land and resource control. Most weaps and armor need to be crafted. Thats where most new games go wrong imo is the over abundant rewards from trivial linear boring solo quests.
That's the point, there are people like you who keep saying Trammel divided the community. It shouldn't be added, blah blah. What you say may be true. But do the PvEr, carebear really think so? No, they come to this forum and say Trammel is the best thing ever. They don't want to be ganked or pked at all. Trammel is the best idea ever, that's why people move there.
Now to me, if you really want those PvE people to play on the same server as you, you need a way to make them happy. Maybe some high security area, where they can play without too many harrasment from the wolf.
Or you can just have all the PvP play with themself. Nothing wrong with that. But you shouldn't expect all the carebear to play with you for your amusement.
And the two faction thing is obviously a disaster for warhammer. I'm sure it's 3 faction, it won't be as bad. It probably still be unblanaced but it won't be this bad. In alot of the game such as wow, swtor, 2 faction isn't a problem, because first of all pvp is instanced, so population is divided equally. But for game like warhammer, where you do group pvp(rvr) all the time, having unbalanced faction is really bad.
If you want open world PvP, get rid of quests entirely. Death isn't such a difficult thing to deal with when you are in a PvP mindset.
Oh, and if a person kills you more then 10 times in a row, a hotkey become enabled allowing you to crash their computer.
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DAoC is my favourite world PvP setup too. But some things get easily overlooked when discussing WHY it was so good. Usually the 3 factions are mentioned and it's very true that it played a big role, but not the only one. In my opinion equally important was:
1. No gear grind in PvP, players got no gear whatsoever from PvP (at least when I played DAoC). Equally players lost no gear when they got killed in PvP.
2. No in-game communication between the 3 factions: there was no way to smack-talk and bitch.
3. There were rewards one could get from PvP, but only a part of it was for the individual player (realm points that could be used to improve character skills), otherwise the outcome rewarded the guild (guild realm points) or even the whole realm (access to Darkness Falls and benefits from relics).
Together with the 3-faction setup these points caused that people could get into PvP easily and had a motivation to take part in it that stretched beyond the individual rewards (farming gear or points) of current games.
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I agree with most of your post except the two faction part, I preferred a three faction scenario and I used to PvP quite a bit whn I was younger and first played MMOs. For me DAoC had it right until they added the ToA expansion. DAoC went down hill after that aa far as I am concerned.
But it wasn't just Mythic's bad decisions... it was People themselves... the Players.
The part above that I highlighted in Orange is why I feel open world PvP will never work on a big scale again. Most of us that had some self respect and didn't act like kids on a plyground left PvP MMOs due to the douchebags, and I for one will never return.
- Have only crafted gear (giving crafters a strong role in the overall success of a faction)
- Have areas that are rich in certain resources spread throughtout the world (PvP players capture and secure those areas)
- Once a certain region is secured, gathering classes can head out to collect materials
- Opposing faction wants / needs a particular resource from said area / region, they organize and swoop in to attempt to reclaim it.
- Certain regions can also have PvE content like dungeons that open up when your faction is in control of (Kinda like Wintergrasp in WoW)
This model encourages all types of game play and cooperation within your faction while providing clear incentives for open world PvP.
The problem with World PvP isn't the limited factions. It's the fact that there are no sanctions or harsh punshment for griefers / lowbie ganking as well as no real meaning to World PvP. There needs to be areas that players can control in the OPEN WORLD - not just in certain tiny zones or battlegrounds.
It needs to be grand.
World PVP works best if there is some world-affecting reason to do it. It also only works if the developer designs the world PVP around the understnading that the world needs to be designed so that players can mitigate or throttle the risk involved in being in that game world, whether by being able to store warehouses of backup gear or simply by being able to migrate to lower risk regions that they are more comfortable with.
In EVE, you are completely safe nowhere. However, the game universe is designed so that players can control the amount of danger they wish to be exposed to and, as a result, there is a thriving community of merchants, mission runners, faction warfare PVPers, pirates and massive fleets.
The latest FFA 'sandboxes' seemed to have forgotten that part and built a game around the 20%, which means either the activities of the other 80% are left out or the 20% begrudgingly does them when they rather be doing what's fun for them. That leads to zero diversity in playstyles, people leaving and a game much that becomes only a fraction of what it otherwise could have been.
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if you want a niche game then go the route of darkfall and make people gankable everywhere. if you want a more mainstream game then you HAVE to go the route of DAOC ....
a complete seperate area set apart but non instanced from the rest of the world where people who want to PVP can go when they want to PVP. then you need to make it the focus of the game and not just tacked on as an optional way to gain "phat lootz".
a seperate area is needed because many people like PVP but not when its forced upon them, many will participate in PVP when THEY want to.
the key to good PvP is what they're very reluctant to give. Power to the people. Power over land, over resources to be harvested and used for crafting and market and economy, over vendor NPC's, over buildings.
For example in APB, PVP is completely pointless beside crappy rank. Wouldn't it be great if a gang defeating everyone in an area were able to control the night clubs, the factories, the hookers, the dealers, everything in it? APB was supposed to be GTA online, but they lacked the conviction to thoroughly walk down that path.
Fact is, developers aren't capable of considering that players don't just play with other players, they should interact and affect the environment deeply.
The constantly infamously boycotted Mortal ONline is planning to do just that. You conquer a piece of land, you manage buildings, castles, keeps, turrets, and control the natural resources.
PvP is just about power and consequently POLITICS and ECONOMY.
And because of that, PvP can only happen in SANDBOX GAMES. And yeah, to me an MMO is all about PVP. So again to me, Sandbox and MMO are one thing, themepark is anti-MMO
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I don't think a completely separate area is even necessary. Many players are fine with and even enjoy that there is some PVP danger, even if extremely minimal, in their PVE gameplay.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre