All these great features of old, were inconveniences. That's why we have MMO-Lite today.
Instances was made to combat fighting over spawns and rediculous group lists, not to mention other people sending trains of mobs to your location wiping your group. You and I may think this adds a fun unpredictable risk factor, that makes it that much more great, doesn't mean others felt the same way. There were some real hardcore nerd raging going on back then, by people that simply couldn't handle that type of mechanics emotionally
All the features taken away from us is because we the gamers didn't want them there
None instanced dungeons helped foster community. You would help other groups with bad pulls if you happened to be in the vicinity. You would help recover their corpses if they wiped. People used the general chat in whatever dungeon they were camping to chat with other groups in the same area, which again meant you got to know people outside your own guild or circle of friends. I've had some fun conversations in lower guk late nights camping that haste sash/ykesha.
Sometimes while waiting for a spot in a group you would hang around helping out with heals and buffs etc. This is something completely missing in todays MMOs because not only have we done away with open dungeons but buffs too, that actually made a difference. We only get 1 tenth of them if even that. Take SWTOR as an example or even Rift. You get 1 buff to cast on others that's it. Two if you are lucky. What MMO today do you have people out there asking for buffs. Practically none.
The downside to all the "positive" things was frustations of dying by some other players hands, because they ran past your group with 10 mobs on their tail. You had to find something to do while being on the list to get a group in a good xp spot. If you wanted to raid, you had to rush it, or you would be kicking and and screaming at that other guild who beat you to the punch, while you were preparing. Or worse case scenario a jerkoff guild with a dedicated group running interference for you so you couldn't prepare in time
So yes you can't have it all. You can't whine about kill stealing, mob trains and griefers getting you killed for fun while at the same time complain todays game has no community and how instances are the devil. You along with everybody else are the reason for that
I am afraid gamers were happy with that. All that changed to attract the non-gamers. This is one of the reasons why WoW has so much success. It's done with the non-gamers in mind.
WoW was created by ex EQ players and not the ones who tried it for a month and quit because they couldn't hack it either.
If you remember back thinking gamers were happy with the way EQ did things then you have a really bad memory or selective memory. That happiness you describe came much later after all the MMO-lite games came out. Then people started longing for the things they helped destroy. As I said in my earlier post. Gamers often ask for things, they have no idea how will impact them in the long run.
Now a whole decade later, we have a gaming generation who was never a part of the MMO golden years, with absolutely no clue of what us old timers are missing from the new breed of MMOs. All they know are instanced instant gratification MMOs where your source of social interaction only comes from your own guild. If you try to explain it to them you are met with a question mark and the comment "just join a guild"
Max gear should be almost impossible to get. U should have to choose which part you want and after all its not sure u still should get it. There should be like a 0.09% drop of best items else there is NONE at all epicness wielding them.
And there shouldnt be any fuking patches every 6 month making everyone starting from the same level again. So USELESS and BORING.
I also want to add a point that i want to see in new MMMOS and that is that a lvl 1 should still somehow be useful in highend guilds somehow. Like a 12 year old still could get water in real wars and fix food/water or try make some scratches to the oponents same should be in a good MMOPVPRPG.
Atm and probably for the next coming 5-10 years ill be only playing Strategy games Or play MMO only bcs of RPG because MMO overall is too far behind where i want it to be. Only DarkFall and EvE seems somewhere close.
Instead of slower leveling I'd prefer no levels at all and tons of skills to aquire instead. I agree that quick leveling like in SWTOR is pointless - today you get that über armor and tomorrow you have outleveled it. Five levels higher green is better than this purple.
And yes, I want bigger worlds and less instances. Technology has become so much better over the last 10-15 years but all MMOs have somehow gone backwards. Maybe it's because of suits that run MMO companies these days instead of guys creating their dream game. I don't know but I get more and more bored of this genre.
I would say they're more interested in controling your experience more than anything else. Which, of course, destroys community and emergent game play leaving you playing a sterile, soul-less solo-player MMO.
In short, when control-freaks design MMOs... They just copy WoW, only make it worse with their 'single-player enhancements' that further destroy social involvment...
Take SWTOR... First MMO I've ever felt alone in... Once we got past the first couple of weeks and all the "oh wow" posts, almost nobody, except a few trolls I had to blacklist, would talk.... I'd play four or five hours and there might be 20 senetences... Mostly 'where is the GTM?' or 'where is my trainer' or 'where are the vendors' and the answers to them... And it was no better in guild chat. There'd be 25, 30 people on (in the early days, by the time I quit it was 4 or 5 at most) and nobody would say anything... You try to start a conversation... People were just out soloing... Not interested in community...
May as well play Skyrim. Takes a good 300+ hours to finish everything and you don't have to rent it every month...
Well I'm a pretty damn old gamer (my first CRPG was Temple of Apshai on the Atari 800 ~ 1981) And I don't like some of the new trends but I'm also not looking at the "good ole days" with rose colored glasses. Some of the new "dumbing down" is an improvement over some bad old s--t.
Take instances. Before instances popular dungeons were a clusterf--k of selfish individuals and groups griefing each other's chance to do what they went there to do. It was similar to what you still see these days during the opening days of any MMO with people competing to tag that one named mob that is required for that quest chain...except 10 times worse.
Trading in the early days? You spent hours spamming chat channels because AHs didn't exist and the act of trading itself was risky and involved the very real possibility of being scammed... which would be followed by another hour of insults in chat channels because the only recourse to being ripped-off was to try to ruin the reputation of the scammer on that server.
Death Penalties... corpse runs to recover your equipment were time consuming PITA which resulted in further deaths since you were trying to survive the area that killed you in the first place except with less gear and death penalties now...no thanks.
Otoh I detest the end-game gear sets that everyone must have--usually one for PVE and one for PVP--that all look the same. I find this inevitable equality boring as hell. There is just no randomness to gear or loot any more for fear that those who didn't luck out with their drops will whine and complain abouy it being unfair...forced equality for the masses is just boring. Worse still, there's just no individuality.
Staged PVP battlegrounds with scoreboards and rewards. There has never been a better PVP system than what existed in DAOC in the early days. People PVP'd for fun and prestige, not because you got to have the ultimate PVP uniform. You'd think the evolution of MMO PVP would have meant more of that but perhaps with better technology resulting in less lag in battles with 300+ players. Instead they've opted for importing the limited scenarios from FPS games into MMOs and called it PVP...because, technically it is player vs. player. It's also a repetitive boring activity that bears no resemblance to real fluid PVP. It's about as much fun as reading "Goodnight Moon" 72 times because it's your fave... it works for 2-year-olds I guess.
The stagnant sameness of all "Big Budget" MMOs these days is really depressing for fans of the genre. It's just like the bad old days of movies when the big studios dictated what you could see in 99% of theaters. Sure you could find the odd good, usually foreign, independent movie, but you had to travel to some roach-infested little theater somewhere to find it....then along came Miramax. What the MMO genre needs is some ballsy guy like Harvey Winestein to come along and make our own version of Miramax. There are some good creative MMO ideas out there but they're getting burried due to lack of development and promotional cash. They're getting released way too early because they've run out of development cash and consequently attract only the most devoted of hardcore fans...imagine if they had real $$$ backing them...
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Instead of slower leveling I'd prefer no levels at all and tons of skills to aquire instead. I agree that quick leveling like in SWTOR is pointless - today you get that über armor and tomorrow you have outleveled it. Five levels higher green is better than this purple.
And yes, I want bigger worlds and less instances. Technology has become so much better over the last 10-15 years but all MMOs have somehow gone backwards. Maybe it's because of suits that run MMO companies these days instead of guys creating their dream game. I don't know but I get more and more bored of this genre.
I would say they're more interested in controling your experience more than anything else. Which, of course, destroys community and emergent game play leaving you playing a sterile, soul-less solo-player MMO.
In short, when control-freaks design MMOs... They just copy WoW, only make it worse with their 'single-player enhancements' that further destroy social involvment...
Take SWTOR... First MMO I've ever felt alone in... Once we got past the first couple of weeks and all the "oh wow" posts, almost nobody, except a few trolls I had to blacklist, would talk.... I'd play four or five hours and there might be 20 senetences... Mostly 'where is the GTM?' or 'where is my trainer' or 'where are the vendors' and the answers to them... And it was no better in guild chat. There'd be 25, 30 people on (in the early days, by the time I quit it was 4 or 5 at most) and nobody would say anything... You try to start a conversation... People were just out soloing... Not interested in community...
May as well play Skyrim. Takes a good 300+ hours to finish everything and you don't have to rent it every month...
You can't play flashpoint in Skyrim.
You can't run a dungeon with 4 others in a single player RPG. You can't run a 10/25 man raid solo. You can't run a battleground without other players.
On the flip side, what is this obsession with chatting in a MMO. If you want to chat, chat with your guildies or go to a chat room. MMORPG is a GAME. And certainly when i am in a raid, there are LOTS of conversation about the raid, and what we should do to beat the boss.
Well I'm a pretty damn old gamer (my first CRPG was Temple of Apshai on the Atari 800 ~ 1981) And I don't like some of the new trends but I'm also not looking at the "good ole days" with rose colored glasses. Some of the new "dumbing down" is an improvement over some bad old s--t.
All those things you slam, pretty much required you to make contact with another human being, forcing you to be social. Often with somebody you didn't know beforehand.
As "horrible" as those mechanics where, they also helped foster community. I played EQ extensively for many years since it's launch and griefing happened but it wasn't an everyday every moment occurance as you want to paint it as. The community was pretty good at policing itself. Sure those mechanics had it's problems but there's no denying it brought people together.
As much as those mechanics are archaic and punishing, taking those mechanics away has just made everybody more indiffrent towards games and their fellow players today. If that's a good or bad thing I let you decide for yourself. I know what the answer is for me
Well I'm a pretty damn old gamer (my first CRPG was Temple of Apshai on the Atari 800 ~ 1981) And I don't like some of the new trends but I'm also not looking at the "good ole days" with rose colored glasses. Some of the new "dumbing down" is an improvement over some bad old s--t.
All those things you slam, pretty much required you to make contact with another human being, forcing you to be social. Often with somebody you didn't know beforehand.
As "horrible" as those mechanics where, they also helped foster community. I played EQ extensively for many years since it's launch and griefing happened but it wasn't an everyday every moment occurance as you want to paint it as. The community was pretty good at policing itself. Sure those mechanics had it's problems but there's no denying it brought people together.
As much as those mechanics are archaic and punishing, taking those mechanics away has just made everybody more indiffrent towards games and their fellow players today. If that's a good or bad thing I let you decide for yourself. I know what the answer is for me
Any "forcing" is a bad thing. I don't see why forcing one to social is a good thing.
This "community" thing is way overblown.
If the core game is not fun, no amount of community can save it from being a bad game. I would much rather to play a good game with my friends than trying to be friends with everyone in the game.
Instead of slower leveling I'd prefer no levels at all and tons of skills to aquire instead. I agree that quick leveling like in SWTOR is pointless - today you get that über armor and tomorrow you have outleveled it. Five levels higher green is better than this purple.
And yes, I want bigger worlds and less instances. Technology has become so much better over the last 10-15 years but all MMOs have somehow gone backwards. Maybe it's because of suits that run MMO companies these days instead of guys creating their dream game. I don't know but I get more and more bored of this genre.
I would say they're more interested in controling your experience more than anything else. Which, of course, destroys community and emergent game play leaving you playing a sterile, soul-less solo-player MMO.
In short, when control-freaks design MMOs... They just copy WoW, only make it worse with their 'single-player enhancements' that further destroy social involvment...
Take SWTOR... First MMO I've ever felt alone in... Once we got past the first couple of weeks and all the "oh wow" posts, almost nobody, except a few trolls I had to blacklist, would talk.... I'd play four or five hours and there might be 20 senetences... Mostly 'where is the GTM?' or 'where is my trainer' or 'where are the vendors' and the answers to them... And it was no better in guild chat. There'd be 25, 30 people on (in the early days, by the time I quit it was 4 or 5 at most) and nobody would say anything... You try to start a conversation... People were just out soloing... Not interested in community...
May as well play Skyrim. Takes a good 300+ hours to finish everything and you don't have to rent it every month...
You can't play flashpoint in Skyrim.
You can't run a dungeon with 4 others in a single player RPG. You can't run a 10/25 man raid solo. You can't run a battleground without other players.
On the flip side, what is this obsession with chatting in a MMO. If you want to chat, chat with your guildies or go to a chat room. MMORPG is a GAME. And certainly when i am in a raid, there are LOTS of conversation about the raid, and what we should do to beat the boss.
Part of it is some of the complaints about the Find Dungeon cross realm. You don't know the people on your server, and there may be a higher chance people stealing(rolling need or booting player through vote to get what they want). Now granted there were kill stealers in games like EQ. They were also generally outcast, at least on my server.
Course the main problem with non instanced raids and such is the "elite" guild basically claiming "ownership" of the zone. Saw that a few times. Regardless many, perhaps even most MMO players don't care about getting to know the community and only care about getitng the shinyist piece of gear before everyone else. Since they already have their guild they've been a part of for years, they have no interest in anyone else. So in the end....meh no clue. I'm sure more standard themepark mmos will come out, and they will be called "WoW clones" and garbage. If a updated EQ like game came out it would be called an "Asian grindfest" and garbage as well. Then there will be the people who enjoy the game.
Well I'm a pretty damn old gamer (my first CRPG was Temple of Apshai on the Atari 800 ~ 1981) And I don't like some of the new trends but I'm also not looking at the "good ole days" with rose colored glasses. Some of the new "dumbing down" is an improvement over some bad old s--t.
All those things you slam, pretty much required you to make contact with another human being, forcing you to be social. Often with somebody you didn't know beforehand.
As "horrible" as those mechanics where, they also helped foster community. I played EQ extensively for many years since it's launch and griefing happened but it wasn't an everyday every moment occurance as you want to paint it as. The community was pretty good at policing itself. Sure those mechanics had it's problems but there's no denying it brought people together.
As much as those mechanics are archaic and punishing, taking those mechanics away has just made everybody more indiffrent towards games and their fellow players today. If that's a good or bad thing I let you decide for yourself. I know what the answer is for me
Horrible is horrible and good riddance. I guess "joint mysery fosters community" could appeal to masochists.
I never had any problem making new friends and feeling a true sense of community by having fun playing well-implemented aspects of an MMO together.
It's the emphasis on individual rewards that hurts communities, First among those is the accumulation of PVP currency by repetitive battleground runs in order to acquire the needed PVP gear with over-emphasized stats in order to be competitive at the next level of PVP BGs... ad nauseum.
When stats from gear becomes the determining factor in your ability to compete or complete content, self-gearing becomes the predominant goal and activity...which is a self-centered solitary pursuit. Even if you have to group to obtain the better gear, you're still essentially pursuing a self-centered goal and the grouping is viewed as a necessary inconvenience to be accomplished as quickly as humanly possible. That's the community killer, not the lack of crappy mechanics that existed in the early days of MMOs.
Minimize the influence of stats on gear--hell, get rid of it alltogether (except perhaps armor value) and just use it for looks. Develop proficiency through use of skills (somehwat like Skyrim) and provide meaningful group objectives and rewards for participation (for example, a better version of Relic buffs from DAOC.)
Communities are fostered by designing fun group activities--especially if the activity itself is its own reward. Corpse runs, crappy trading interfaces and kill stealing don't do anything of the sort.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Horrible is horrible and good riddance. I guess "joint mysery fosters community" could appeal to masochists.
I never had any problem making new friends and feeling a true sense of community by having fun playing well-implemented aspects of an MMO together.
It's the emphasis on individual rewards that hurts communities, First among those is the accumulation of PVP currency by repetitive battleground runs in order to acquire the needed PVP gear with over-emphasized stats in order to be competitive at the next level of PVP BGs... ad nauseum.
When stats from gear becomes the determining factor in your ability to compete or complete content, self-gearing becomes the predominant goal and activity...which is a self-centered solitary pursuit. Even if you have to group to obtain the better gear, you're still essentially pursuing a self-centered goal and the grouping is viewed as a necessary inconvenience to be accomplished as quickly as humanly possible. That's the community killer, not the lack of crappy mechanics that existed in the early days of MMOs.
Minimize the influence of stats on gear--hell, get rid of it alltogether (except perhaps armor value) and just use it for looks. Develop proficiency through use of skills (somehwat like Skyrim) and provide meaningful group objectives and rewards for participation (for example, a better version of Relic buffs from DAOC.)
Communities are fostered by designing fun group activities--especially if the activity itself is its own reward. Corpse runs, crappy trading interfaces and kill stealing don't do anything of the sort.
In which universe half of what you say is even remotely possible and in which universe the other half already isnt offered by non-mmorpg games?
In which universe gear grind is self centered and skill grind isnt?
Part of it is some of the complaints about the Find Dungeon cross realm. You don't know the people on your server, and there may be a higher chance people stealing(rolling need or booting player through vote to get what they want). Now granted there were kill stealers in games like EQ. They were also generally outcast, at least on my server.
I would take LFD cross realm any day.
1) So i don't know people on my server. They are strangers ANYWAY and i have enough friends on my server. Is there really a need to know people on my server?
2) Yes, there is a higher chance that others can ninja loot. But the sword cut both ways. You can ninja too. The rules are symmetrical. I do not see that as a down-side. In fact, i do not have to play nice when i dont have too. It is a positive.
umm.... no. i wouldn't play a game that requires such a time investment. progressing so little isn't progress, it is (word of the day) stagnation. i have better things to do with my time than play a game that's exactly the same thing, over and over, for years. that's why i quit runescape, because i grew up and had better things to do with my time. that's (one of the reasons) why i'm excited for GW2, because i'll actually be able to hit cap without becoming a souless hobgoblin. i want my life, and i want my games. i shouldn't have to trade one for the other.
and to turn your idea around (the one that runs: why have a level cap if people just blast through to it): why have a level cap if the entire game is just a slog to get to it? sorry, but i want to play a game where i do things, not a game where i kill a million mobs to get one new spell.
finally: just because it takes a long time doesn't mean it's hard. i agree: mmos these days are easy, but not because you can hit cap in a week. that has everything to do with mechanics, and nothing to do with an unholy grind who's mere implementation should be grounds for being slapped with a live carp.
the grind is dying, thank the gods. may it never return.
Part of it is some of the complaints about the Find Dungeon cross realm. You don't know the people on your server, and there may be a higher chance people stealing(rolling need or booting player through vote to get what they want). Now granted there were kill stealers in games like EQ. They were also generally outcast, at least on my server.
I would take LFD cross realm any day.
1) So i don't know people on my server. They are strangers ANYWAY and i have enough friends on my server. Is there really a need to know people on my server?
2) Yes, there is a higher chance that others can ninja loot. But the sword cut both ways. You can ninja too. The rules are symmetrical. I do not see that as a down-side. In fact, i do not have to play nice when i dont have too. It is a positive.
1) if you have enough friends you should feel no need to use any finder tool
2) the loot is just a cherry on the top, the annoying symetry is more in the area of pulling your weight, showing any interest in what is happening and general behavior. A single server is just a smaller pool where you can more easily remember the "annoying" and "not annoying" people, and maybe contact (or ignore) them directly.
Part of it is some of the complaints about the Find Dungeon cross realm. You don't know the people on your server, and there may be a higher chance people stealing(rolling need or booting player through vote to get what they want). Now granted there were kill stealers in games like EQ. They were also generally outcast, at least on my server.
I would take LFD cross realm any day.
1) So i don't know people on my server. They are strangers ANYWAY and i have enough friends on my server. Is there really a need to know people on my server?
2) Yes, there is a higher chance that others can ninja loot. But the sword cut both ways. You can ninja too. The rules are symmetrical. I do not see that as a down-side. In fact, i do not have to play nice when i dont have too. It is a positive.
1) if you have enough friends you should feel no need to use any finder tool
2) the loot is just a cherry on the top, the annoying symetry is more in the area of pulling your weight, showing any interest in what is happening and general behavior. A single server is just a smaller pool where you can more easily remember the "annoying" and "not annoying" people, and maybe contact (or ignore) them directly.
Flame on!
1) I do NOT want a large group of friends so that i have enough to form a group at any time i want to play. A few friends are enough. Too many is a hassle. And even if you have 10 friends, can you guarantee a full group any time you want to play? Plus, LFD teleport me & my friends to the dungeon. There is no reason not wanting it.
2) No need for a single server. If i don't like the group, i quit. Most people are bearable. I always kicked undergear people who cannot pull their weight. If a group is wiping on trash, i am out of here. In fact, it is EASIER with random people since you don't have to worry about they remembering you rage-quiting.
In which universe half of what you say is even remotely possible and in which universe the other half already isnt offered by non-mmorpg games?
In which universe gear grind is self centered and skill grind isnt?
Flame on!
When gear becomes 50%+ of your DPS/HPS, as it is in WOW, everyone becomes a loot w---e ...and they rush through s--t just for drops. If that wasn't boring enough, you just create a second set of gearing up by inventing a PVP-only stat or stats... double the fun!
As to the rest, maybe if you had an imagination? Example... your healing improves by 0.001 points per cast when you self heal or 0.01 per cast when you heal someone else... Your sword skill goes up at 5X the rate while grouped...and so on...
Want more? As long as your faction controls and defends objective X, which takes a minimum of 40 players or so to acquire (more if defended by a previous owne)r the skill-gains for everyone in your faction increases at +5% per hour of holfding the objective until it maxes out at increasing at 200%... all of that goes away if you loose the objecive.
You want your gear to have some + stats? Fine, cap it at a maximum of +20% vs. being naked...
I think my 12-yr-old could program all that.
I guess your universe must be pretty bland and tiny.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
Part of it is some of the complaints about the Find Dungeon cross realm. You don't know the people on your server, and there may be a higher chance people stealing(rolling need or booting player through vote to get what they want). Now granted there were kill stealers in games like EQ. They were also generally outcast, at least on my server.
I would take LFD cross realm any day.
1) So i don't know people on my server. They are strangers ANYWAY and i have enough friends on my server. Is there really a need to know people on my server?
2) Yes, there is a higher chance that others can ninja loot. But the sword cut both ways. You can ninja too. The rules are symmetrical. I do not see that as a down-side. In fact, i do not have to play nice when i dont have too. It is a positive.
1) if you have enough friends you should feel no need to use any finder tool
2) the loot is just a cherry on the top, the annoying symetry is more in the area of pulling your weight, showing any interest in what is happening and general behavior. A single server is just a smaller pool where you can more easily remember the "annoying" and "not annoying" people, and maybe contact (or ignore) them directly.
Flame on!
1) I do NOT want a large group of friends so that i have enough to form a group at any time i want to play. A few friends are enough. Too many is a hassle. And even if you have 10 friends, can you guarantee a full group any time you want to play? Plus, LFD teleport me & my friends to the dungeon. There is no reason not wanting it.
2) No need for a single server. If i don't like the group, i quit. Most people are bearable. I always kicked undergear people who cannot pull their weight. If a group is wiping on trash, i am out of here. In fact, it is EASIER with random people since you don't have to worry about they remembering you rage-quiting.
1) so you dont have enough friends afterall , remember, friendlist is not just for your buddies, but also people you just contact if you want to run a dungeon and do a specific activity.
2) fair enough, i guess, but i still feel that this does not really have a positive effect on the number of "non-annoying" people and the "community situation" overall
In which universe half of what you say is even remotely possible and in which universe the other half already isnt offered by non-mmorpg games?
In which universe gear grind is self centered and skill grind isnt?
Flame on!
When gear becomes 50%+ of your DPS/HPS, as it is in WOW, everyone becomes a loot w---e ...and they rush through s--t just for drops. If that wasn't boring enough, you just create a second set of gearing up by inventing a PVP-only stat or stats... double the fun!
As to the rest, maybe if you had an imagination? Example... your healing improves by 0.001 points per cast when you self heal or 0.01 per cast when you heal someone else... Your sword skill goes up at 5X the rate while grouped...and so on...
Want more? As long as your faction controls and defends objective X, which takes a minimum of 40 players or so to acquire (more if defended by a previous owne)r the skill-gains for everyone in your faction increases at +5% per hour of holfding the objective until it maxes out at increasing at 200%... all of that goes away if you loose the objecive.
You want your gear to have some + stats? Fine, cap it at a maximum of +20% vs. being naked...
I think my 12-yr-old could program all that.
I guess your universe must be pretty bland and tiny.
When skills become 50%+ of your DPS/HPS, everyone becomes a skillup w---e ...and they rush through s--t just for skillups. If that wasn't boring enough, you just create a second set of skilling up by inventing a PVP-only skill or skills... double the fun!
- 0.001 vs 0.01 , you already get better drop chance in group activities
Want more? As long as your faction controls and defends objective X, which takes a minimum of 40 players or so to acquire (more if defended by a previous owne)r the drop-gains for everyone in your faction increases by +5% by hour of holfding the objective until it maxes out at increasing at 200%... all of that goes away if you loose the objecive.
What you are really talking about is gradual slower progression, which has nothing to do with gear or skills, but the speed and amount of them aquired in one "action" or "run", both can be as you point out in wow (if you get say 10 skillups a cast just for fighting a boss monster) or more gradual (say token/material drops instead of whole items).
The gear % of dps is more tricky in other areas
As for the impossible, i was more talking about your focusing too much on positive reinforcement (is it called that?), and that it has very diminishing returns without anything negative.
What you are really talking about is gradual slower progression, which has nothing to do with gear or skills, but the speed and amount of them aquired in one "action" or "run", both can be as you point out in wow (if you get say 10 skillups a cast just for fighting a boss monster) or more gradual (say token/material drops instead of whole items).
The gear % of dps is more tricky in other areas
As for the impossible, i was more talking about your focusing too much on positive reinforcement (is it called that?), and that it has very diminishing returns without anything negative.
Flame on!
Not really. What I'm talking about is fostering groups and communities vs. isolation and self-centered play.
If there's one thing most of us who are not very satisfied with the incesant copying of the WOW formula in MMOs mention as a common problem is the lac of a feeling of community compared to the MMO of old. What we don't agree on is the root cause of the decline in the quality of the community.
Many people talk about dungeon finders, solo quest content and many other things as the cause. My personal favorite ones to blame are battlegrounds and individual positive reinforcements...i.e. the obsession with and real need for gear. WOW even incorporated a home grown gear-score system that forces you to meet a specific target before you can even queue for certain dungeons.
What I'm promoting is group and faction based positive reinforcements. Big difference there. I saw how they worked in Dark Age of Camelot (quite well) providing faction-wide buffs and access to a particular dungeon. It really wasn't until much later when DAOC introduced individual PVP rewards that things started to go downhill.
There's nothing wrong with positive reinforcement as long as you're reinforcing the right thing...in this case, community building. Trying to get people to group in order to gain individual rewards (drops) is wrong on so many levels. It of course leads to impatient dungeon runs with strangers...what else could it possibly lead to?
Take a look at Dominus if you haven't. It's an upcoming MMO with many ideas similar to what I've mentioned here. Their 3-sided conflict is based around building, defending and attacking bases and competing for one resource. Also The Secret World which has neither classes nor stats on gear.
Thankfully there are some out there trying to revitalize MMOs...hope it works out.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
its my first post on this forum, and english is not my first language so i apologize for any errors wich may be in my post.
so, why am I here? why am I writing this now instead of playing my fav. mmo? well thats kind of the reason... there is no!!
this thread will look as a QQ thread, well it kinda is.
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so here we go, today's mmos are far more popular that they were back few years ago when i started playing but allaround the quality just fell sooo drastcicly ... i feel like the only thing improving is the graphics and everything else just keeps gettin' worse
My basic points of complain are the following, wich in my eyes ruins today mmos and makes it just rpg with internet conection.
1. INSTANCED DUNGENS ... why? why? why? why does it have to be instanced ??? odl sql dungens were part of the open world... sure the mobs were bit harder in there but so was the exp and lot (more rewarding) .. there were fights over the good grinding spots between guilds and alliances wich made it one of the most exciting aspects of the game. Instanced RUIN EVERYTHING = go in kill some mobs, then the boss = dungen cleared (gets boooriiing, or no?) no competition no nothing, feels like rpg style sorry
2. LEVELING CURVE for me, THATS the reason all new mmos WILL fail... tera (2 weeks to max lvl = JOKE) thats why it failed in korea and japan ... i bet everything i have that the future of gw2 will be the same ... we all know leveling is a peace of cake there also .. the only thing it will show after a year of two is the pvp aspect of the game, but that will be enough just too keep the hard core pvpers in the game ... i know now i will get flamed by gw2 lovers but idc its my opinion
aion is doing good in korea cuz its the most grindy of them all.
wich makes me come to 2.0 leveling curve, WHY do they make arcade mmos in wich u reach max lvl in a month or two easy gaming ... why do they make lvl cap at all ???? it would be soooo more intresting that the exp would grow all the time even if the mobs give 0,0000000000001% exp
at least there is some progression FOR GODS SAKE, wouldnt hurt if there is no max lvl !!!
now people again will say, omg you like grind omg noob get life bla bla bla ...
THE ONLY AND I MEAN THE ONLY reason why they have low lvl cap is so new players wich come after few months can still catch up with old players... thats all ... but still its no excuse!!!
everything is sooooooo easy nowdays, back in time in a game i played the whole allince had to give money for a frineds item cuz there were just 2 wepons of that grade on the whole server and that was 5 years after the game was released, TODAY??? 1 month max gear, max lvl, max everything ffs
people do get bored with this games and thats why nothing lasts more then a year before it starts to flop
todays mmo market is just to much focused on (wont even call them casual gamers) people who play single player games all day but wanna chat also ...
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so my mmo now would look like;
1. no leveling cap or at least a cap wich requiers a year or two grind
2. massive open world
3. no instance at all
4. max lvl gear should be very very very hard to obtain not that after few monts every noob walks around with max gear looking same as every1 else lolz
5. some castle siege, teritory wars and economyc/political play
6. (this point is very debateble since its pure subjective opinion) i dont like gunners replacing archers nowdays .. + enginers etc bljahhh (well i like asian style sorry ;D) neither do i like animal races but i can live without point 6 ^^
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well nice last words,
today mmos = single play games with chat option
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sorry for language again, hope at least some agree with me...
BRING GRINDERS BACK!!!!!!!
Instanced Dungeons = Have you ever considered the possibility that people don't want to constantly fight over things? I'm not a fan of PvP in an MMORPG at all because it's usually dependant on gear, level, class and player numbers. Granted I think there should be a hybrid/balance. World of Warcraft has normals and heroics, heroics being the harder version of an instance. Make the normal instanced, make the heroic non-instanced. Not everyone has hours and hours and hours to spare to get one thing done simply because players are interfering.
Leveling Curve = Only a problem if the game has very little to do once you reach the level cap. World of Warcraft does not have this problem if you like to raid. I've raided in WoW for years, it's enjoyable and it's social being on Vent with 39 other people chatting and having fun(then 24, then 9 in my case). If you have nothing to do once you reach the level cap and it's not a grinder with a ridiculous gap to max level then your game is fundamentally flawed. Some games are grindy and have nothing to do while the leveling curve grows exponentially... some people would argue that the grind is the thing to do, but if there's nothing to do during the grind and nothing to do after it then the point is...?
The main issue with massive grinds is that they get boring for many people. To be fair, I think games allow you to reach the level cap too quickly nowadays. WoW's leveling period is fairly short and there's so much in terms of quests and content that you inevitably skip a good portion of it unless you intentionally hold yourself back in lower areas just to finish everything... then again it's a good thing because starting a second character means you have the option of doing the things that you skipped on your first character and that adds replay value.
Progression is in the eye of the beholder, all you're looking at is level numbers and XP numbers. Progression in WoW can mean climbing up the ranks in arenas and beating bosses in raids, it's not all about the levels and XP counts. Complaining about gear that's too easy to get, well that's a farce too in WoW's case... granted raids are easier than they've ever been at this point but you still have to do the encounters and kill bosses to get the best stuff, and there are legendaries that require a fair bit of work to get.
WoW's a good example of how things work fine for non-grind. The major problem with a lot of these new games coming out, both free to play and retail, is that they copy WoW's general game model but they don't add very much content to keep people busy. Granted I'm talking about 6 or 7 years of operation over 3 expansions versus new games, but when you're instantly bored and without things to do at the level cap... well, either you're lazy and don't want to do what's still around or there isn't anything to do once you get there.
Now Playing: Mission Against Terror, Battlefield 3, Skyrim, Dark Souls, League of Legends, Minecraft, and the piano. =3
Part of it is some of the complaints about the Find Dungeon cross realm. You don't know the people on your server, and there may be a higher chance people stealing(rolling need or booting player through vote to get what they want). Now granted there were kill stealers in games like EQ. They were also generally outcast, at least on my server.
I would take LFD cross realm any day.
1) So i don't know people on my server. They are strangers ANYWAY and i have enough friends on my server. Is there really a need to know people on my server?
2) Yes, there is a higher chance that others can ninja loot. But the sword cut both ways. You can ninja too. The rules are symmetrical. I do not see that as a down-side. In fact, i do not have to play nice when i dont have too. It is a positive.
1) if you have enough friends you should feel no need to use any finder tool
2) the loot is just a cherry on the top, the annoying symetry is more in the area of pulling your weight, showing any interest in what is happening and general behavior. A single server is just a smaller pool where you can more easily remember the "annoying" and "not annoying" people, and maybe contact (or ignore) them directly.
Flame on!
1) I do NOT want a large group of friends so that i have enough to form a group at any time i want to play. A few friends are enough. Too many is a hassle. And even if you have 10 friends, can you guarantee a full group any time you want to play? Plus, LFD teleport me & my friends to the dungeon. There is no reason not wanting it.
2) No need for a single server. If i don't like the group, i quit. Most people are bearable. I always kicked undergear people who cannot pull their weight. If a group is wiping on trash, i am out of here. In fact, it is EASIER with random people since you don't have to worry about they remembering you rage-quiting.
1) so you dont have enough friends afterall , remember, friendlist is not just for your buddies, but also people you just contact if you want to run a dungeon and do a specific activity.
2) fair enough, i guess, but i still feel that this does not really have a positive effect on the number of "non-annoying" people and the "community situation" overall
Flame on!
Let me rephrase:
1) I do NOT want "enough" friends to be able to fill groups any time any day. More friends is not better. They demand attention, chats, and sometimes doing stuff for them, or at least put them on a friend list. Why should i go to all that trouble if LFD is tehre? So .. yeah .. LFD is perfect.
2) Who cares about "community" or positive effect when i can have fun?
1) I do NOT want "enough" friends to be able to fill groups any time any day. More friends is not better. They demand attention, chats, and sometimes doing stuff for them, or at least put them on a friend list. Why should i go to all that trouble if LFD is tehre? So .. yeah .. LFD is perfect.
2) Who cares about "community" or positive effect when i can have fun?
Well, there is nothing more to say, is there? You reply surely is sig-worthy
beside the grind, which should be in constructive non asian way, but still more challengin than what we have to day, the rest are spot on.
Until a medium size company with experience comes to make a good sandbox or hybrid mmorpg, nothing will change. The mmo games are made today are for the new generation of challenged people. Not all, maybe 90% lol. Say thanks to consoles, and shitty corps like EA, Acti Blizz and so on.
The triple AAA studios, run by braindead suits, will still make the shame shiity clones for money, while braindead people will praise them for their shitty products.
Comments
WoW was created by ex EQ players and not the ones who tried it for a month and quit because they couldn't hack it either.
If you remember back thinking gamers were happy with the way EQ did things then you have a really bad memory or selective memory. That happiness you describe came much later after all the MMO-lite games came out. Then people started longing for the things they helped destroy. As I said in my earlier post. Gamers often ask for things, they have no idea how will impact them in the long run.
Now a whole decade later, we have a gaming generation who was never a part of the MMO golden years, with absolutely no clue of what us old timers are missing from the new breed of MMOs. All they know are instanced instant gratification MMOs where your source of social interaction only comes from your own guild. If you try to explain it to them you are met with a question mark and the comment "just join a guild"
agree with some of TS points.
Max gear should be almost impossible to get. U should have to choose which part you want and after all its not sure u still should get it. There should be like a 0.09% drop of best items else there is NONE at all epicness wielding them.
And there shouldnt be any fuking patches every 6 month making everyone starting from the same level again. So USELESS and BORING.
I also want to add a point that i want to see in new MMMOS and that is that a lvl 1 should still somehow be useful in highend guilds somehow. Like a 12 year old still could get water in real wars and fix food/water or try make some scratches to the oponents same should be in a good MMOPVPRPG.
Atm and probably for the next coming 5-10 years ill be only playing Strategy games Or play MMO only bcs of RPG because MMO overall is too far behind where i want it to be. Only DarkFall and EvE seems somewhere close.
I would say they're more interested in controling your experience more than anything else. Which, of course, destroys community and emergent game play leaving you playing a sterile, soul-less solo-player MMO.
In short, when control-freaks design MMOs... They just copy WoW, only make it worse with their 'single-player enhancements' that further destroy social involvment...
Take SWTOR... First MMO I've ever felt alone in... Once we got past the first couple of weeks and all the "oh wow" posts, almost nobody, except a few trolls I had to blacklist, would talk.... I'd play four or five hours and there might be 20 senetences... Mostly 'where is the GTM?' or 'where is my trainer' or 'where are the vendors' and the answers to them... And it was no better in guild chat. There'd be 25, 30 people on (in the early days, by the time I quit it was 4 or 5 at most) and nobody would say anything... You try to start a conversation... People were just out soloing... Not interested in community...
May as well play Skyrim. Takes a good 300+ hours to finish everything and you don't have to rent it every month...
Well I'm a pretty damn old gamer (my first CRPG was Temple of Apshai on the Atari 800 ~ 1981) And I don't like some of the new trends but I'm also not looking at the "good ole days" with rose colored glasses. Some of the new "dumbing down" is an improvement over some bad old s--t.
Take instances. Before instances popular dungeons were a clusterf--k of selfish individuals and groups griefing each other's chance to do what they went there to do. It was similar to what you still see these days during the opening days of any MMO with people competing to tag that one named mob that is required for that quest chain...except 10 times worse.
Trading in the early days? You spent hours spamming chat channels because AHs didn't exist and the act of trading itself was risky and involved the very real possibility of being scammed... which would be followed by another hour of insults in chat channels because the only recourse to being ripped-off was to try to ruin the reputation of the scammer on that server.
Death Penalties... corpse runs to recover your equipment were time consuming PITA which resulted in further deaths since you were trying to survive the area that killed you in the first place except with less gear and death penalties now...no thanks.
Otoh I detest the end-game gear sets that everyone must have--usually one for PVE and one for PVP--that all look the same. I find this inevitable equality boring as hell. There is just no randomness to gear or loot any more for fear that those who didn't luck out with their drops will whine and complain abouy it being unfair...forced equality for the masses is just boring. Worse still, there's just no individuality.
Staged PVP battlegrounds with scoreboards and rewards. There has never been a better PVP system than what existed in DAOC in the early days. People PVP'd for fun and prestige, not because you got to have the ultimate PVP uniform. You'd think the evolution of MMO PVP would have meant more of that but perhaps with better technology resulting in less lag in battles with 300+ players. Instead they've opted for importing the limited scenarios from FPS games into MMOs and called it PVP...because, technically it is player vs. player. It's also a repetitive boring activity that bears no resemblance to real fluid PVP. It's about as much fun as reading "Goodnight Moon" 72 times because it's your fave... it works for 2-year-olds I guess.
The stagnant sameness of all "Big Budget" MMOs these days is really depressing for fans of the genre. It's just like the bad old days of movies when the big studios dictated what you could see in 99% of theaters. Sure you could find the odd good, usually foreign, independent movie, but you had to travel to some roach-infested little theater somewhere to find it....then along came Miramax. What the MMO genre needs is some ballsy guy like Harvey Winestein to come along and make our own version of Miramax. There are some good creative MMO ideas out there but they're getting burried due to lack of development and promotional cash. They're getting released way too early because they've run out of development cash and consequently attract only the most devoted of hardcore fans...imagine if they had real $$$ backing them...
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
You can't play flashpoint in Skyrim.
You can't run a dungeon with 4 others in a single player RPG. You can't run a 10/25 man raid solo. You can't run a battleground without other players.
On the flip side, what is this obsession with chatting in a MMO. If you want to chat, chat with your guildies or go to a chat room. MMORPG is a GAME. And certainly when i am in a raid, there are LOTS of conversation about the raid, and what we should do to beat the boss.
All those things you slam, pretty much required you to make contact with another human being, forcing you to be social. Often with somebody you didn't know beforehand.
As "horrible" as those mechanics where, they also helped foster community. I played EQ extensively for many years since it's launch and griefing happened but it wasn't an everyday every moment occurance as you want to paint it as. The community was pretty good at policing itself. Sure those mechanics had it's problems but there's no denying it brought people together.
As much as those mechanics are archaic and punishing, taking those mechanics away has just made everybody more indiffrent towards games and their fellow players today. If that's a good or bad thing I let you decide for yourself. I know what the answer is for me
Any "forcing" is a bad thing. I don't see why forcing one to social is a good thing.
This "community" thing is way overblown.
If the core game is not fun, no amount of community can save it from being a bad game. I would much rather to play a good game with my friends than trying to be friends with everyone in the game.
Part of it is some of the complaints about the Find Dungeon cross realm. You don't know the people on your server, and there may be a higher chance people stealing(rolling need or booting player through vote to get what they want). Now granted there were kill stealers in games like EQ. They were also generally outcast, at least on my server.
Course the main problem with non instanced raids and such is the "elite" guild basically claiming "ownership" of the zone. Saw that a few times. Regardless many, perhaps even most MMO players don't care about getting to know the community and only care about getitng the shinyist piece of gear before everyone else. Since they already have their guild they've been a part of for years, they have no interest in anyone else. So in the end....meh no clue. I'm sure more standard themepark mmos will come out, and they will be called "WoW clones" and garbage. If a updated EQ like game came out it would be called an "Asian grindfest" and garbage as well. Then there will be the people who enjoy the game.
Horrible is horrible and good riddance. I guess "joint mysery fosters community" could appeal to masochists.
I never had any problem making new friends and feeling a true sense of community by having fun playing well-implemented aspects of an MMO together.
It's the emphasis on individual rewards that hurts communities, First among those is the accumulation of PVP currency by repetitive battleground runs in order to acquire the needed PVP gear with over-emphasized stats in order to be competitive at the next level of PVP BGs... ad nauseum.
When stats from gear becomes the determining factor in your ability to compete or complete content, self-gearing becomes the predominant goal and activity...which is a self-centered solitary pursuit. Even if you have to group to obtain the better gear, you're still essentially pursuing a self-centered goal and the grouping is viewed as a necessary inconvenience to be accomplished as quickly as humanly possible. That's the community killer, not the lack of crappy mechanics that existed in the early days of MMOs.
Minimize the influence of stats on gear--hell, get rid of it alltogether (except perhaps armor value) and just use it for looks. Develop proficiency through use of skills (somehwat like Skyrim) and provide meaningful group objectives and rewards for participation (for example, a better version of Relic buffs from DAOC.)
Communities are fostered by designing fun group activities--especially if the activity itself is its own reward. Corpse runs, crappy trading interfaces and kill stealing don't do anything of the sort.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
In which universe half of what you say is even remotely possible and in which universe the other half already isnt offered by non-mmorpg games?
In which universe gear grind is self centered and skill grind isnt?
Flame on!
I would take LFD cross realm any day.
1) So i don't know people on my server. They are strangers ANYWAY and i have enough friends on my server. Is there really a need to know people on my server?
2) Yes, there is a higher chance that others can ninja loot. But the sword cut both ways. You can ninja too. The rules are symmetrical. I do not see that as a down-side. In fact, i do not have to play nice when i dont have too. It is a positive.
umm.... no. i wouldn't play a game that requires such a time investment. progressing so little isn't progress, it is (word of the day) stagnation. i have better things to do with my time than play a game that's exactly the same thing, over and over, for years. that's why i quit runescape, because i grew up and had better things to do with my time. that's (one of the reasons) why i'm excited for GW2, because i'll actually be able to hit cap without becoming a souless hobgoblin. i want my life, and i want my games. i shouldn't have to trade one for the other.
and to turn your idea around (the one that runs: why have a level cap if people just blast through to it): why have a level cap if the entire game is just a slog to get to it? sorry, but i want to play a game where i do things, not a game where i kill a million mobs to get one new spell.
finally: just because it takes a long time doesn't mean it's hard. i agree: mmos these days are easy, but not because you can hit cap in a week. that has everything to do with mechanics, and nothing to do with an unholy grind who's mere implementation should be grounds for being slapped with a live carp.
the grind is dying, thank the gods. may it never return.
1) if you have enough friends you should feel no need to use any finder tool
2) the loot is just a cherry on the top, the annoying symetry is more in the area of pulling your weight, showing any interest in what is happening and general behavior. A single server is just a smaller pool where you can more easily remember the "annoying" and "not annoying" people, and maybe contact (or ignore) them directly.
Flame on!
1) I do NOT want a large group of friends so that i have enough to form a group at any time i want to play. A few friends are enough. Too many is a hassle. And even if you have 10 friends, can you guarantee a full group any time you want to play? Plus, LFD teleport me & my friends to the dungeon. There is no reason not wanting it.
2) No need for a single server. If i don't like the group, i quit. Most people are bearable. I always kicked undergear people who cannot pull their weight. If a group is wiping on trash, i am out of here. In fact, it is EASIER with random people since you don't have to worry about they remembering you rage-quiting.
When gear becomes 50%+ of your DPS/HPS, as it is in WOW, everyone becomes a loot w---e ...and they rush through s--t just for drops. If that wasn't boring enough, you just create a second set of gearing up by inventing a PVP-only stat or stats... double the fun!
As to the rest, maybe if you had an imagination? Example... your healing improves by 0.001 points per cast when you self heal or 0.01 per cast when you heal someone else... Your sword skill goes up at 5X the rate while grouped...and so on...
Want more? As long as your faction controls and defends objective X, which takes a minimum of 40 players or so to acquire (more if defended by a previous owne)r the skill-gains for everyone in your faction increases at +5% per hour of holfding the objective until it maxes out at increasing at 200%... all of that goes away if you loose the objecive.
You want your gear to have some + stats? Fine, cap it at a maximum of +20% vs. being naked...
I think my 12-yr-old could program all that.
I guess your universe must be pretty bland and tiny.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
1) so you dont have enough friends afterall
, remember, friendlist is not just for your buddies, but also people you just contact if you want to run a dungeon and do a specific activity.
2) fair enough, i guess, but i still feel that this does not really have a positive effect on the number of "non-annoying" people and the "community situation" overall
Flame on!
When skills become 50%+ of your DPS/HPS, everyone becomes a skillup w---e ...and they rush through s--t just for skillups. If that wasn't boring enough, you just create a second set of skilling up by inventing a PVP-only skill or skills... double the fun!
- 0.001 vs 0.01 , you already get better drop chance in group activities
Want more? As long as your faction controls and defends objective X, which takes a minimum of 40 players or so to acquire (more if defended by a previous owne)r the drop-gains for everyone in your faction increases by +5% by hour of holfding the objective until it maxes out at increasing at 200%... all of that goes away if you loose the objecive.
What you are really talking about is gradual slower progression, which has nothing to do with gear or skills, but the speed and amount of them aquired in one "action" or "run", both can be as you point out in wow (if you get say 10 skillups a cast just for fighting a boss monster) or more gradual (say token/material drops instead of whole items).
The gear % of dps is more tricky in other areas
As for the impossible, i was more talking about your focusing too much on positive reinforcement (is it called that?), and that it has very diminishing returns without anything negative.
Flame on!
Not really. What I'm talking about is fostering groups and communities vs. isolation and self-centered play.
If there's one thing most of us who are not very satisfied with the incesant copying of the WOW formula in MMOs mention as a common problem is the lac of a feeling of community compared to the MMO of old. What we don't agree on is the root cause of the decline in the quality of the community.
Many people talk about dungeon finders, solo quest content and many other things as the cause. My personal favorite ones to blame are battlegrounds and individual positive reinforcements...i.e. the obsession with and real need for gear. WOW even incorporated a home grown gear-score system that forces you to meet a specific target before you can even queue for certain dungeons.
What I'm promoting is group and faction based positive reinforcements. Big difference there. I saw how they worked in Dark Age of Camelot (quite well) providing faction-wide buffs and access to a particular dungeon. It really wasn't until much later when DAOC introduced individual PVP rewards that things started to go downhill.
There's nothing wrong with positive reinforcement as long as you're reinforcing the right thing...in this case, community building. Trying to get people to group in order to gain individual rewards (drops) is wrong on so many levels. It of course leads to impatient dungeon runs with strangers...what else could it possibly lead to?
Take a look at Dominus if you haven't. It's an upcoming MMO with many ideas similar to what I've mentioned here. Their 3-sided conflict is based around building, defending and attacking bases and competing for one resource. Also The Secret World which has neither classes nor stats on gear.
Thankfully there are some out there trying to revitalize MMOs...hope it works out.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
Instanced Dungeons = Have you ever considered the possibility that people don't want to constantly fight over things? I'm not a fan of PvP in an MMORPG at all because it's usually dependant on gear, level, class and player numbers. Granted I think there should be a hybrid/balance. World of Warcraft has normals and heroics, heroics being the harder version of an instance. Make the normal instanced, make the heroic non-instanced. Not everyone has hours and hours and hours to spare to get one thing done simply because players are interfering.
Leveling Curve = Only a problem if the game has very little to do once you reach the level cap. World of Warcraft does not have this problem if you like to raid. I've raided in WoW for years, it's enjoyable and it's social being on Vent with 39 other people chatting and having fun(then 24, then 9 in my case). If you have nothing to do once you reach the level cap and it's not a grinder with a ridiculous gap to max level then your game is fundamentally flawed. Some games are grindy and have nothing to do while the leveling curve grows exponentially... some people would argue that the grind is the thing to do, but if there's nothing to do during the grind and nothing to do after it then the point is...?
The main issue with massive grinds is that they get boring for many people. To be fair, I think games allow you to reach the level cap too quickly nowadays. WoW's leveling period is fairly short and there's so much in terms of quests and content that you inevitably skip a good portion of it unless you intentionally hold yourself back in lower areas just to finish everything... then again it's a good thing because starting a second character means you have the option of doing the things that you skipped on your first character and that adds replay value.
Progression is in the eye of the beholder, all you're looking at is level numbers and XP numbers. Progression in WoW can mean climbing up the ranks in arenas and beating bosses in raids, it's not all about the levels and XP counts. Complaining about gear that's too easy to get, well that's a farce too in WoW's case... granted raids are easier than they've ever been at this point but you still have to do the encounters and kill bosses to get the best stuff, and there are legendaries that require a fair bit of work to get.
WoW's a good example of how things work fine for non-grind. The major problem with a lot of these new games coming out, both free to play and retail, is that they copy WoW's general game model but they don't add very much content to keep people busy. Granted I'm talking about 6 or 7 years of operation over 3 expansions versus new games, but when you're instantly bored and without things to do at the level cap... well, either you're lazy and don't want to do what's still around or there isn't anything to do once you get there.
Now Playing: Mission Against Terror, Battlefield 3, Skyrim, Dark Souls, League of Legends, Minecraft, and the piano. =3
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Let me rephrase:
1) I do NOT want "enough" friends to be able to fill groups any time any day. More friends is not better. They demand attention, chats, and sometimes doing stuff for them, or at least put them on a friend list. Why should i go to all that trouble if LFD is tehre? So .. yeah .. LFD is perfect.
2) Who cares about "community" or positive effect when i can have fun?
Well, there is nothing more to say, is there? You reply surely is sig-worthy
Flame on!
With the rise of Mumble, Vent, Steamchat, Facebook, and Twitter use with MMO's...it's amazing anyone types ingame anyways...
beside the grind, which should be in constructive non asian way, but still more challengin than what we have to day, the rest are spot on.
Until a medium size company with experience comes to make a good sandbox or hybrid mmorpg, nothing will change. The mmo games are made today are for the new generation of challenged people. Not all, maybe 90% lol. Say thanks to consoles, and shitty corps like EA, Acti Blizz and so on.
The triple AAA studios, run by braindead suits, will still make the shame shiity clones for money, while braindead people will praise them for their shitty products.
You dont like my language? Well this my opinion. I get so many shits from this shitty forum moderators in last 7 years, that i am sick of it. Still, its good to see that not all people falled to an IQ of 50, and after 7 years here, i actually saw one of the few good articles on this site: http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/12/feature/6100/Ultima-Online-The-Making-of-a-Classic-Part-1.html
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