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Guild Wars PvP is really imbalanced
CaptainRPG
Member Posts: 794
After playing 4 months of Guild Wars pvp ranging from Team Arena/Competition Mode, HoH and GvG, I've come to find a lot imbalance in a rumor to be balance in pvp. Though the pvp is addicting, it's still imbalancing. I'll stated the reasons why the pvp is imbalance below:
1) In a team of 8, only 3 of the team members are Warriors and the other 5 are spellcasters or rangers.
2) With the other 5 team members being spellcasters or rangers most of the combat is long range, putting the Warrior at a disadvantage.
3) The Warrior has to run over to his opponent to melee them in close combat. Spellcasters and rangers can either DOT/snare them before the get within 20 feet or spike them to death. Even after doing all this, the spellcasters and rangers still have energy left to ward off the other players.
4) Spellcasters and Rangers can bypass Warrior armor with DoT and armor penetrating spikes/skills making armor useless.
5) The spellcasters and Rangers can inflict conditions that hurt the warrior's combat abilities and posses enchantments or hex that prevent them from being a serious threat.
6) The top three groups are Spirit Ranger, Healing Ball Monk and Spike Elementalist.
7) Skill traps are unavoidable since platforms in this game are narrow and linear.
8) Hex and spells can be cast through walls or on top of bridge, giving Spellcasters huge advantages over Rangers and Warriors.
9) Warriors do very little damage overall and their aderaline can easily be shutdown.
If you are looking for a game with a really good PvP, this isn't the game. The PvP is addicting for a while then you realize, it's all imbalanced.
Comments
From the Guildwars future releses dated Thursday, August 4
Because it has been a few weeks since we've posted a major update, we wanted to let everyone know what's in the works. Typically, a few weeks is a short amount of time in the development cycle of a game, but we know there are many people who play Guild Wars with such dedication and intensity that a few weeks without an update seems more like an eternity. Here's what's on the way...
PvP Playbalance
A knockdown warrior group that is actually good can be very effective. Besides warriors are not suppose to be damage dealers but damage absorbers and they are to harrass the monks.
...Compare damage with & without armor & you will notice ALOT of difference. Armor calculator if you dont want to try it ingame. DoT do ignore armor, there is no direct damage that ignores armor completely.
(Air-spike groups focus on 1 target at a time so it seems like you just dropped dead from nothing).
I found no arguments for imbalance in your post, just the downsides of a war with no subjob. 3 out of 8 people being warrior, thats alot seing as there are 6 proffessions.
Top 3 team builds: Where do you get damage from in "Spirit Ranger" (which actually takes several rangers)? That would be the warriors because the increased hp makes spikes & conditions much less of a hassle.
Healing ball build gets raped by mesmers & air spike teams have trouble with mesmers & spirits.
For 7) I am not sure what you are trying to say, I have never had problems with traps in PvP as they are easy to interupt & rangers are not a primary target most times (traps + spirits take too much skill slots so they wont have slots left for damage skills), also recharge on all traps but the elite one are very long.
9) There are only a few spells that shutdown adrenaline recharge (1 from mesmer that I know, not sure on others), warriors dont need to worry about energy & the downside is that they need to be close up (casters dont have unlimited energy).
Get your warriors to focus on one target AFTER you have built up adrenaline on DIFFERENT targets (unload adrenaline skills on focused target). A single warrior chopping away at someone is meaningless if you think thats a viable tactic.
Also hexes & such affect EVERY proffession not just warriors. I am not sure what you want a warrior to be (you want 4+ warriors in a team of 8?), but it seems like you want some kinda demi-god mode for PvP & that would mean imbalance. (No hexes & enchantments for anyone? Whats left is just standing & attacking each other which is boring).
One this doesn't hardly anything to do with the warrior, a regular team still has a warrior at disadvantage since 5 out 8 players on the opposing teams a spellcasters or rangers. And these guys plan to nerf those team or classes? You can't nerf the team build because they'll limit the gameplay and if they nerf classes that can be a double edge sword.
1) Spike teams can be counter by wearing elemental gear, elemental resisting stances, winter, nature's renewal and Quickening zephyr. You don't need the gear, stances or winter, but nature's renewal and Quickening zephyr. Even if you aren't a spirit team, you can still beat this team with those spirits alone. If they nerf lightning spells, the elementalists will start to use Earth magic more as spikes.
2) Healing Cluster, I presume is the healing ball. This team build can beaten in the same way as the Spike build. You have a ranger with spirits, you'll have little difficulty taking out Healing Clusters or Spike Groups for that matter. If you nerf Holy spells, Monk will fire back that now they can't go on the offensive and play a monk is boring and frustrating. One of the reason why monks went Smite was so they avoid hard-headed groups.
3) Spirit Teams are the only teams that can't be counter thanks to Oath Shot and the ability to cast multiple spirit on the screen. The only ways to nerf this team is by getting rid of Oath Shot and nerfing spirits where only one spirit can only be conjured at a time. If another of the same kind is summoned then the last spirit before it, dies.
4) Enchanting Webs, I'm guessing are Necromancers who use various enchantments like Tainted Flesh and Death Nova on their Undead minions. Again Nature's Renewal and Quickening Zephyr puts an end to these guys. No reason to nerf these guys.
5) Warrior/Monks were never a threat to begin with. They can last long in normal newbie fights in the first month, but after that went down hill because they chain DoT, chain Hexed or Spiked to death. The reason people pick them often is because they are one of the premade build along slide the Warrior/Elementalist, which is also very used-build. But your secondary is the least of your worries if picked a warrior primary.
If anything, the spellcasters and Ranger class needs to be nerfed.
Quote, "3) The Warrior has to run over to his opponent to melee them in close combat. Spellcasters and rangers can either DOT/snare them before the get within 20 feet or spike them to death. Even after doing all this, the spellcasters and rangers still have energy left to ward off the other players.
4) Spellcasters and Rangers can bypass Warrior armor with DoT and armor penetrating spikes/skills making armor useless.
5) The spellcasters and Rangers can inflict conditions that hurt the warrior's combat abilities and posses enchantments or hex that prevent them from being a serious threat."
Warriors are the most handicap class in the game. Without anyone else to aid them, they suck on their own unless in PvE were as other classes more than capable of handling themselves. I don't think I need to say anything else.
I found no arguments for imbalance in your post, just the downsides of a war with no subjob. 3 out of 8 people being warrior, thats alot seing as there are 6 proffessions.
Top 3 team builds: Where do you get damage from in "Spirit Ranger" (which actually takes several rangers)? That would be the warriors because the increased hp makes spikes & conditions much less of a hassle.
Healing ball build gets raped by mesmers & air spike teams have trouble with mesmers & spirits.
For 7) I am not sure what you are trying to say, I have never had problems with traps in PvP as they are easy to interupt & rangers are not a primary target most times (traps + spirits take too much skill slots so they wont have slots left for damage skills), also recharge on all traps but the elite one are very long.
9) There are only a few spells that shutdown adrenaline recharge (1 from mesmer that I know, not sure on others), warriors dont need to worry about energy & the downside is that they need to be close up (casters dont have unlimited energy).
Get your warriors to focus on one target AFTER you have built up adrenaline on DIFFERENT targets (unload adrenaline skills on focused target). A single warrior chopping away at someone is meaningless if you think thats a viable tactic.
Also hexes & such affect EVERY proffession not just warriors. I am not sure what you want a warrior to be (you want 4+ warriors in a team of 8?), but it seems like you want some kinda demi-god mode for PvP & that would mean imbalance. (No hexes & enchantments for anyone? Whats left is just standing & attacking each other which is boring).
1) Rangers and Warriors have their damage reduced when attacked by elemental or physical damage. Lightning damage can do up to +100 damage with runes and 4 spikers can kill you. (Even with good armor) Earth Magic can do the same amount and more. Spikes from Death Nova actually do bypass your armor. (Up to 106 with my warrior) Mesmer, Necromancer and Rangers can chain-DoT you to death.
2) If you didn't notice, where I note about the average team having 3 warriors in a 8 man group. The battles are primarily won by anyone with a long range/spellcasting attack. This is imbalancing because the melee factor means little and fights can easily be won without a warrior as shown by Spike Groups, Healing Ball and Spirit Groups.
b) Rangers and Mesmer can dominate other classes. Mesmers can shutdown all groups and still do damage. Ranger can stop all spellcasters and with spellcasters making up 4/6 classes in this game, that makes them overpowered.
c) The Necromancer and Elementalist were both built to take out the warrior class. Two class were made to take out the one Warrior class in the game who pose a little threat to other class that are played right themselves.
d) 4/6ths of the class can inflict conditions that most hurt the warrior performance. Conditions, especially snares, hurt the Warriors the most because they can't attack from long range making them sitting ducks. Hexes and Dots may affect other classes, but the warrior is hurt the most because his armor and melee tactics are what make this class any good.
3) Soothing Images and Sympathetic Visage stop adrenaline from being gained and with Wastel's Wary and Mindwrack, a energy denial mesmer can effectively kill a warrior with those skills and still be able to shutdown spellcasters.
4) Arenas as well as certain areas in tombs and gvg are very narrow. The paths become narrow as you get close to a player-group base. For example, the both the front and side passage way of the gvg camps get narrow as the opposing teams get near them. This pretty much forces you to run on an AOE trap. And you can't easily interrupt non-noob Rangers if they a) use stances and b) blind you, which is tactic often employ by Ranger when in the thick.
5) Unless you have a GROUP of mesmer, you aren't going to stop a Healing Cluster or Spike Group. A mesmer is good at shutdown one caster a time. Spirit team can trap other players or wall themselves using spirits and it makes very hard to target. Not to mention rangers have no problem killing the spellcasters on your team. (Warriors are always killed last.)
It all depends on your perspective. Most warriors claim that anyone with a ranged attack is too powerful and most anyone with light armor claims that the warriors are too powerful. Playing both I don't really think any class is all that much more powerful than any other.
Honestly though, true unbalancing is all about your BUILD. That is the great unequalizer (is that a word?) in Guild Wars. And that's what the Devs are looking at when they talk about PvP balance issues -- specific builds vs. other builds.
ANet does a lot of data tracking so they probably know what the imbalances are better than we do though. If there is something wrong they will fix it, they will do it slowly and in small steps but they will fix it none the less.
1) Only reason you would think a warrior class is overpower when you're, let's say a ranger, is if you idiot. Rangers and Spellcasters were lighter clothing so of course, you're going to do more when a warrior hits you. But what makes them overpower is that they all specialize in both pve and pvp, but the warrior specialize in nothing. The enemy NPC AI ignoreS the warrior half the time and half the time during pvp groups ignore the warrior and go straight for the monk. As I said, fights are decided by long battles. It should be a balance of both, but with the warrior not specialize in any field, the warrior underpower.
2) And the only thing you do with those groups is ban or prevent such groups from being formed. If the classes are nerfed, it means a) There is imbalance between classes and b) the players will fire back.
Our HoH winning build has 3 warriors in it. I don't think they are underpowered.
Every team has its advantages and its disadvantages. Every player has its good side and its weak side. It looks like the OP was a warrior with a substandard build and/or a poor team/group that did not help him become the Warrior he wants to be, so he puts down the game as a whole.
Spike teams can be trumped by one ranger sperit.
Sperit teams can be owned by one ele spell
Ele teams can be taken down by a well played warrior and healer
Warrior healer teams can be eaten alive by necro groups.
Necro groups can be dominated by a spike team.
The reason most people like GVG or HOH is because each fight is different.
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1) It takes two ranger spirits, nature's renewal and quickening zephyr, not one. Other spirits also are effective against elementalist, but two are enough.
2) You need to stop speaking out of your ass. Spirit teams, if you know what they are, consist of Rangers who use various spirits to mess up your Tab targetting (and visual targetting) and make it difficult for spellcaster to use their abilities. Spirit teams can turn all damage into fire or ice, all while wearing anti-elemental armor or using elemental resistant stances. Obviously for you to speak like this means you haven't even gone up against one.
3) Actually, no. Spike teams can kill up to 3 to 4 people on your team faster than players can res. Doesn't matter how well played you are.
4) Necro groups hardly exist in any form of PvP because their Death tactics suck and all they can do is Hex. They suck against anyone who doesn't melee.
I think you might want to actually play the game before commenting such half-ass stuff.
If warriors are truely weaker then they wouldn't have to worry about people carrying counters to them as often.
Perhaps you should consider playing a monk, because I have to wonder about your monks if you're running into that many problems. If a warrior in my guild called out blind or cripple and it wasn't mended or matyred within 2-3 seconds, heads would roll. Soothing is given a bit more leniency due to the longer recharge times on hex removal, but not by much. Most good groups will continually strip the primary target, so sympathetic visage shouldn't be too big a deal, unless you're dealing with a hero with it and spellbreaker. Even then, a nature's renewal, chiblians, or well of the profane will get rid of it.
Besides conjure phantasm and on fire, pretty much all of the DoTs do less than 5 arrows of degen, meaning you'd need at least 3 degen effects to max out at 10 arrows. With around 455 health, and a max of 20 DPS from degen, if you're not getting a heal or a condition/hex removal within 23 seconds, you have some serious monking problems. While it does happen, it's a rare occurance that a warrior gets spiked if there's a good prot monk in the group.
I do agree that Ward Against Melee (and all other wards for that matter) should be reworked, as they cannot be destroyed once placed, and unlike wells, do not require corpses to cast. Still, you could try to work Griffon's Sweep into your build and get a knockdown in every 5 seconds.
So in your 8 player groups, you typically run 3 warriors? My guild ran a build like that at the start, but soon moved away from it because it lacked utility. Most good groups have 2 heal monks, and then a third monk of some sort (prot, half prot, or heal in the case of a ball). That leaves 2 slots for your rangers, eles, necs, and mesmers. Either you're going to have those slots be utility, and all your damage be warriors, or you're going to have those slots be damage, and have very little utility.
I've heard warriors claim they do good damage, and even good spike damage with FGJ, but if you're finding that you're not doing enough damage, someone earlier mentioned you could always switch to a KD-AS warrior. I still remember the shock of how fast Eternal Avatars managed to drop me with a dual KD-AS warrior build. If you don't want to go that route though, warriors are still excellent for disruption and conditions, just not three of them.
1) Teams focus on killing your monks first, not your warriors. Your warriors will be halted by a defense of some kind from your enemy like enchantment or hex and there's nothing your monks can do to help since they are fending for themselves. Any team that isn't focusing your healers first was never a good team to begin with. In the end, it depends on whether or not you brought, non-melee class with you to help win the battle, not the warrior.
2) KD-AS warriors are good to finish off opponents that have been weaken in health, but energy stealing axe/inspiration warrior/mesmers are better. With no energy, your opponents can't do anything. Energy Drain, Energy Tap and Leech Signet/Power Drain and your opponents are helpess. With 5/6 of the class dependant on energy, it makes very easy to shutdown almost all classes.
3) I use to be in the 25th rank guild before they dropped off the map and turn into a-holes. The last guild I was in was rank 600 and fought groups in the top 100. The highest rank we beat was 74 in that guild.
4) Everything sounds good on paper, but once you are in a fight, it's a different story. Most builds work because a) The opposing team was unorganized and b) the opposing didn't expect such-and-such combination to be used against them. I've learned after beating guild within the top 100s that the reason they are high rank is not because they had a good team build, but because they fought often in GvG.