If a game has 100K subs, and over the next few months gains another 300K subs, but loses 250K of those new subs, plus loses another 50K of the original subs, you'd see a report that the game stayed at 100K subs. Yet, 400K people tried the game out.
And the same sort of thing with the entire industry itself in those days. A lot of people tried out UO and left the MMORPG scene entirely, while new people came in at the same time. Subs did increase overall quite considerably, especially with WoW, but also overall. Some old UO players ended up in EQ, others in AC, others in DAoC, mixed in with the new players who never played UO, and some just left the scene and went back to SPgames or FPSers, or whatever. The overall retention numbers increased, we don't know how much the overall numbers of people who didn't stick increased but I'm absolutely sure they did. The point is, that UO had about as many players try it as those other games before WoW did, game per game. But the other games had more retention than UO did exactly because of the PKing. And of you don't want to believe Koster, that's your right. But you don't know how many left a game before they could be counted as subs on a quarterly basis. Koster did.
I'll start by stating catagorically that whilst I have looked at data on the net, it is clear that obviously Koster knows far more about the situation that occurred than I do in terms of numbers. So don't take any counter points I make as me trying to make out otherwise!
That being said, whilst Koster may have been privy to how many people have ever tried the game and then quit, I can safely say that he has no idea how many of them would fall into the camp of "I quit because I got pk'd", he certainly has no clear idea as to how many of them who thought "I quit because I got pk'd and now I am put off sandboxes forever". The vast, vast amount of people don't bother to explain to a developer why they are quitting their game.
Many of those players may have just been trying it out and didn't like it for any number of reasons, many will have seen the newer games and left, a large amount may no longer have the funding or have other obligations. Sorry but I am highly skeptical of the fact that a massive swathe of people not only gave up the game due to pk'ing, but also didn't bother to go back after Tram and gave up on sandboxes in general.
What is clear though is that the sub numbers where gradually climbing and that moreover, any massive leap in the sub data did not coincide with the introduction of Tram (which saw a moderate increase that pretty much any major expansion would add), it simply carried on groing as one would expect with a product which was seeing a larger and larger potential customerbase accessing the market via the internet.
Koster went on to make a 3D sandbox with possibly one of the largest IP's seen in a game or within the entertainment industry in general, Star Wars. More and more people had access to the internet and to the mmorpg gaming sphere and yet for all of those advantagesand the game being non ffa, what happened to that? By 2004 it had 250k subs and by 2006 110-175k subs. After that they changed the core model. It may have shifted 1mm boxes over several years but that is not subs and those figures are hardly pointing to ffa being a major issue for UO.
There is no doubt (especially these days) that more people prefer not to have ffa/looting than people who do want that kind of thing. But I really don't see your initial premise being correct. The majority don't play sandbox games because they don't give a toss about world simulation, they just want to log into a game and "have a blast" or quick adventure in a graphically rich world. Furthermore the road to the loot grind started with Tram and the casualisation it brought into the game.
Personally I just wish they would make an updated (pre Tram) UO. Doubt it will happen mind you /sigh.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
Just a curiosity, why is it that everyone thinks that UO was the first, when in fact, Meridian59 came out before it did, and had much better PvP mechanics?
Although, I guess you could call UO the granddaddy, if you also assume that M59 was the grandmother that gave birth to it all. In fact, the only reason that M59 didn't become bigger than UO was because of some bad decisions by 3DO.
Indeed from time to time someone slips up and neglecting Meridian59, calls UO the first. I haven't noticed that in this specific discussion being that most people here to tip a hat to Ultima Online, one of the great ice breakers, either remembers m59or did their homework.
M59 didn't make a splash. And The Realm was before M59 too.
But even though they both were in the new genre of multiplayer (which MUDs were too), it was UO that really put the "massive" in and opened the door. The Realm, I think, was limited to 100 players per server. M59 I'm not sure about, and couldn't find anything on. But neither were truly massive in numbers for whatever reason.
Comments
I'll start by stating catagorically that whilst I have looked at data on the net, it is clear that obviously Koster knows far more about the situation that occurred than I do in terms of numbers. So don't take any counter points I make as me trying to make out otherwise!
That being said, whilst Koster may have been privy to how many people have ever tried the game and then quit, I can safely say that he has no idea how many of them would fall into the camp of "I quit because I got pk'd", he certainly has no clear idea as to how many of them who thought "I quit because I got pk'd and now I am put off sandboxes forever". The vast, vast amount of people don't bother to explain to a developer why they are quitting their game.
Many of those players may have just been trying it out and didn't like it for any number of reasons, many will have seen the newer games and left, a large amount may no longer have the funding or have other obligations. Sorry but I am highly skeptical of the fact that a massive swathe of people not only gave up the game due to pk'ing, but also didn't bother to go back after Tram and gave up on sandboxes in general.
What is clear though is that the sub numbers where gradually climbing and that moreover, any massive leap in the sub data did not coincide with the introduction of Tram (which saw a moderate increase that pretty much any major expansion would add), it simply carried on groing as one would expect with a product which was seeing a larger and larger potential customerbase accessing the market via the internet.
Koster went on to make a 3D sandbox with possibly one of the largest IP's seen in a game or within the entertainment industry in general, Star Wars. More and more people had access to the internet and to the mmorpg gaming sphere and yet for all of those advantagesand the game being non ffa, what happened to that? By 2004 it had 250k subs and by 2006 110-175k subs. After that they changed the core model. It may have shifted 1mm boxes over several years but that is not subs and those figures are hardly pointing to ffa being a major issue for UO.
There is no doubt (especially these days) that more people prefer not to have ffa/looting than people who do want that kind of thing. But I really don't see your initial premise being correct. The majority don't play sandbox games because they don't give a toss about world simulation, they just want to log into a game and "have a blast" or quick adventure in a graphically rich world. Furthermore the road to the loot grind started with Tram and the casualisation it brought into the game.
Personally I just wish they would make an updated (pre Tram) UO. Doubt it will happen mind you /sigh.
"Come and have a look at what you could have won."
There is a reason that my sign here is UO. Its simply the best MMO ever made IMO. I started playing it in 1997 {mod edit}
^ this and I would go buy a iPhone right now
Just a curiosity, why is it that everyone thinks that UO was the first, when in fact, Meridian59 came out before it did, and had much better PvP mechanics?
Although, I guess you could call UO the granddaddy, if you also assume that M59 was the grandmother that gave birth to it all. In fact, the only reason that M59 didn't become bigger than UO was because of some bad decisions by 3DO.
Indeed from time to time someone slips up and neglecting Meridian59, calls UO the first. I haven't noticed that in this specific discussion being that most people here to tip a hat to Ultima Online, one of the great ice breakers, either remembers m59or did their homework.
M59 didn't make a splash. And The Realm was before M59 too.
But even though they both were in the new genre of multiplayer (which MUDs were too), it was UO that really put the "massive" in and opened the door. The Realm, I think, was limited to 100 players per server. M59 I'm not sure about, and couldn't find anything on. But neither were truly massive in numbers for whatever reason.
Once upon a time....
Happy 15th Ultima Online!
The 5 that i had the priviledge to spend with you are some of my most cherished memories in my MMORPG adventure.
Yes I gues you could say it was a love affair
Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
Legends of Kesmai....CompuServe...lol.