Thoughts on "Self-Rooting" Combat

Arawulf · February 2012

TL;DR - Some games allow you to move while using instant abilities (WoW, RIFT, GW2), while some "self-root" you during the animation (GW1, Aion, TERA) and the animation cannot be stopped until it's completed. While some think self-rooting combat takes more skill - since you have to be aware of whats happening before you spam a skill, I think it's more of a annoyance. (Not talking about cast-time spells or channeled spells, only instant spells)

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I've played melee classes in almost every MMORPG I've ever played. Keeping an enemy player at close range is paramount so I've become quite adept at moving my character while attacking. If I'm on top of you, you'll need to crowd-control me or use some type of blink ability to get away because I'm relentless when you're close! I played World of Warcraft for many years, so I had the freedom of motion while using instant spells (which the vast majority of melee abilities are). When I used a skill, the animation never hindered my character's movement. I could cast Judgement, Hammer of Justice, Divine Shield - all while moving. The only skills that would stop me from moving were any that had a cast-time (CT), or were channeled (CH) (i.e.,Holy Light, Hammer of Wrath). If I moved while casting spells with CT or CH the spell would be cancelled and I could continue moving.

Then I played Aion (and now TERA). I made a Gladiator because I loved the look of the big 2-handed weapons smashing down on the enemy. I remember my first PvP fight. I was chasing down the enemy and popped an attack ability and ..*tire screeching*.. my character froze in place during the attack animation. No button would cancel the animation - I was crowd controlled. Even if it's a second or two, the distance my enemy was able to get from me was troublesome since he/she would keep on running. At first, this was incredibly frustrating since I wasn't used to this. It just wasn't fun to be self-rooted when trying to use skills. Sure, I understand if something has a cast time or is a channeled spell - movement will break the cast - BUT AT LEAST YOU CAN STILL MOVE. In Aion or TERA, when you use a skill and need to make an instant adjustment, sorry - you can't stop it. Your character must finish the animation. Normally it's the enemy player that forces you to lose control of your character, but in Aion and TERA - you do it to yourself!

Some critics say this is a design flaw that is a cheap solution to poor game design (i.e., there is an animation that this skill has and it causes problems if we let the player cancel it mid-stream). However, some might say that this means that you must be more skillful - you must be aware of your circumstances and make sure you aren't using abilities that might self-root you when you need to be moving.

I'm still learning TERA combat during the beta, so for now I'm still getting used to this type of combat. To be honest, I don't really see this being my cup 'o tea. However, it's clear that some folks like this style. Aion, going free to play this Spring in the NA, has had plenty of fans that have no issue with this style combat and with 3 million subs in Korea, they obviously don't have issues with it either.

Sure, maybe I'm a spoiled WoW player - "I like to move-it-move-it" while using abilities. Looks like Guild Wars 2 won't self-root either for most spells.

Self-rooting combat might actually just take more skill than more free-flowing combat, but I'm not sure I'm interested in having to be so skilled that I can defend against my own crowd control - I'd rather be crowd controlling my enemy instead!

ZBergz · February 2012

It definitely depends upon the ability being used, however for most melee I find it to be inconvenience that is not needed. In a player vs player situation I find mobility to be paramount to victory as melee. Beyond a close proximity melee damage drops to nothing while ranged classes enjoy doling out damage through a much greater range. Ranged classes do fine with the self root aspect of abilities because it allows your enemies to close in upon you where as melee you risk far more.

Kyleran · February 2012

I never play melee because I don't have the dexterity the OP exhibits, but can completely agree that what he describes would be extremely frustrating and shouldn't be part of the core mechanics.

Castillle · February 2012

I say its fine as long as not everything is like that.

Kinda like smash brothers. Enemy still? use a smash attack. Enemy falling to you? Charge up that falcon punch! NAO!

But yes in cases like that its fine. Even in PSO2 its fine. When it becomes not fine is when its taking all the bad aspects and leaving all the good aspects out. Example is in WoW-like games where you cant use the ability unless the enemy is melee range the whole time thus preventing you from setting up the self rooting attack so that it hits the enemy as he reaches you/gets knocked backed to you.

NBlitz · February 2012

I'm used to playing other third-person combat-based action games.

I played TERA (even as early as Dec 2010-March 2011) and it never occurred to me that it might be a problem...until the English version became available for people to play and I read forum posts here and elsewhere.

Honestly I don't even know what to think anymore other than that I think people are already living inside GW2's world.

Arawulf · February 2012

Originally posted by NBlitz
I'm used to playing other third-person combat-based action games.

I played TERA (even as early as Dec 2010-March 2011) and it never occurred to me that it might be a problem...until the English version became available for people to play.

Honestly I don't even know what to think anymore other than that I think people are already living inside GW2's world.

I think GW2 definately brings more attention to this issue, considering the focus they've put on mobility in combat. However, this issue began with me when I first played Aion. I never had problems 'closing' the gap between myself and ranged players in any other game until them. I learned to work around it, but it certainly was frustrating and I never could figure out why it was even necessary. How hard is it to allow movement during a skill animation - I don't know if it's a result of an engine that won't allow it or if it's working as intended and part of the challenge of the game.

jusomdude · February 2012

I would never play a game that I knew had something like this.

Castillle · February 2012

Originally posted by Arawulf

Originally posted by NBlitz

I'm used to playing other third-person combat-based action games.

I played TERA (even as early as Dec 2010-March 2011) and it never occurred to me that it might be a problem...until the English version became available for people to play.

Honestly I don't even know what to think anymore other than that I think people are already living inside GW2's world.

I think GW2 definately brings more attention to this issue, considering the focus they've put on mobility in combat. However, this issue began with me when I first played Aion. I never had problems 'closing' the gap between myself and ranged players in any other game until them. I learned to work around it, but it certainly was frustrating and I never could figure out why it was even necessary. How hard is it to allow movement during a skill animation - I don't know if it's a result of an engine that won't allow it or if it's working as intended and part of the challenge of the game.

Not hard. Its a design decision. Rooting allows for more powerful looking swings. There arent any weak moves you can use while moving and whacking? Id expect theyd do it kinda like CO where strong melee attacks have a cast meter and some roots you for the duration but there were some attacks you can use while being mobile.

If its that much of a problem umm..arent there roots/slows?

Master10K · February 2012

This is quite odd for me because having played Action RPGs like the The Witcher 2, I should be OK with this style of combat, with self-rooting animations. Yet after playing TERA beta, it feels just so pronounced in that title that I never feel like I'm in control of my character. Like's more as if I line up to hit my target and hope my animation connects. Just doesn't feel actiony enough. People say it requires more skill and I do agree that the aiming part of it requires more skill, but the combat as a whole requires more patience than skill.

Xasapis · February 2012

The only two games that don't have what you call self root are GW2 (unknown quantity) and TSW (unknown quantity). Every other game posted has you rooted in place with at least part of the skill set.

You're just used to casting bars, GCD and skill cooldowns in general and are fixated to keeping a hawk's eye on the quickbar and spamming your keys or macros.

There is no GCD in Tera. Your cooldown is your character's animation. Your queue that you need to fire the next skill is the end of said animation. All you have to do is check the action instead of checking your quickbar.

Forgetting the lack of tab targetting, I find the fact that you can do combat without looking at your quickbars at all a vast improvement over whatever system we've currently been playing.

Oh, and OP, you happened to pick the slowest (although highest hitting) melee class. Try the other two and see if they feel more natural for you. Try the warrior perhaps. He's the toughest melee to play (in terms of difficulty), but I believe he's the most agile of the lot.

Loke666 · February 2012

I think most attacks should allow you to move while you execute them, but having one or 2 really powerful that runs an animation adds to the fun and balance out that skill.

But generally is MMO combat already too much about standing still in the same place and spamming skills so having loads of stuff like this doesn´t help.

Master10K · February 2012

Originally posted by Loke666
I think most attacks should allow you to move while you execute them, but having one or 2 really powerful that runs an animation adds to the fun and balance out that skill.

But generally is MMO combat already too much about standing still in the same place and spamming skills so having loads of stuff like this doesn´t help.

Yeah, that's what I wished TERA was like. Heck, even GW2 is like that, with a few powerful abilities locking your character in place. But at least you can cancel them.

Mavacar · February 2012

I remember back in Aion when this was one of THE things people would hate on, specially if one faction had slighted faster animation then the other then that faction was OP. Personally I can stand it as long as it doesn't ruin the flow of the action

Zylaxx · February 2012

Originally posted by Arawulf

TL;DR - Some games allow you to move while using instant abilities (WoW, RIFT, GW2), while some "self-root" you during the animation (GW1, Aion, TERA) and the animation cannot be stopped until it's completed. While some think self-rooting combat takes more skill - since you have to be aware of whats happening before you spam a skill, I think it's more of a annoyance. (Not talking about cast-time spells or channeled spells, only instant spells)

Full Version:

I've played melee classes in almost every MMORPG I've ever played. Keeping an enemy player at close range is paramount so I've become quite adept at moving my character while attacking. If I'm on top of you, you'll need to crowd-control me or use some type of blink ability to get away because I'm relentless when you're close! I played World of Warcraft for many years, so I had the freedom of motion while using instant spells (which the vast majority of melee abilities are). When I used a skill, the animation never hindered my character's movement. I could cast Judgement, Hammer of Justice, Divine Shield - all while moving. The only skills that would stop me from moving were any that had a cast-time (CT), or were channeled (CH) (i.e.,Holy Light, Hammer of Wrath). If I moved while casting spells with CT or CH the spell would be cancelled and I could continue moving.

Then I played Aion (and now TERA). I made a Gladiator because I loved the look of the big 2-handed weapons smashing down on the enemy. I remember my first PvP fight. I was chasing down the enemy and popped an attack ability and ..*tire screeching*.. my character froze in place during the attack animation. No button would cancel the animation - I was crowd controlled. Even if it's a second or two, the distance my enemy was able to get from me was troublesome since he/she would keep on running. At first, this was incredibly frustrating since I wasn't used to this. It just wasn't fun to be self-rooted when trying to use skills. Sure, I understand if something has a cast time or is a channeled spell - movement will break the cast - BUT AT LEAST YOU CAN STILL MOVE. In Aion or TERA, when you use a skill and need to make an instant adjustment, sorry - you can't stop it. Your character must finish the animation. Normally it's the enemy player that forces you to lose control of your character, but in Aion and TERA - you do it to yourself!

Some critics say this is a design flaw that is a cheap solution to poor game design (i.e., there is an animation that this skill has and it causes problems if we let the player cancel it mid-stream). However, some might say that this means that you must be more skillful - you must be aware of your circumstances and make sure you aren't using abilities that might self-root you when you need to be moving.

I'm still learning TERA combat during the beta, so for now I'm still getting used to this type of combat. To be honest, I don't really see this being my cup 'o tea. However, it's clear that some folks like this style. Aion, going free to play this Spring in the NA, has had plenty of fans that have no issue with this style combat and with 3 million subs in Korea, they obviously don't have issues with it either.

Sure, maybe I'm a spoiled WoW player - "I like to move-it-move-it" while using abilities. Looks like Guild Wars 2 won't self-root either for most spells.

Self-rooting combat might actually just take more skill than more free-flowing combat, but I'm not sure I'm interested in having to be so skilled that I can defend against my own crowd control - I'd rather be crowd controlling my enemy instead!

I agree completely and its just "ONE" of the many reasons why I wont even look at games like Tera.

Inf666 · February 2012

At first I didn't like it but I have gotten used to it. Honestly I now think it is a good thing because it makes combat more tactical. You really need to think about positioning in correlation to your enemy.

Look at Counter-Strike. If you shoot while moving you will hit nothing. You have to manually stop, then shoot, then move again. The skill requirement increases which makes combat more engaging.

I did a few duals with my friends (4 different chars) on level 22. At first we were just running close to the opponent and spamming skills. Someone randomly won. After a few matches you people started to move differently. No more rushing and spamming. We were now circling each other while waiting for a mistake. Oh, he stopped his char? Dodge whatever he throws at you and then use your own skills.

Additionally the ranged chars would be OP without the self-root. An archer would be able to easily kite everyone forever while using those high damage skills.

jusomdude · February 2012

So GW2 has moves like this? Don't they also let casters run while casting? That's a big ol salami slap to melee if true.

I don't see any casters being hit by any of these self rooting melee attacks.

june32nd · February 2012

Originally posted by Arawulf To be honest, I don't really see this being my cup 'o tea.

fantastic and well thought out OP! I agree and I am NOT a fan of those abilities. Xspecially if it's on a melee toon. I have cast time skills on a melee character, to me it doesn't make sense. Why do i have to take a solid 3+ seconds to swing my sword, axe, mace, etc. and if I can't canacel it then you're really sealing the deal of not playing. In games like GW and Aion where the focus is arguably PvP, how are you going to do that? like Casters clearly have the advantage in those games with self rooting skills. Like you said OP you had no chance to catch up with that enemy because you were self rooted and they continues to keep moving. So a melee character to have a cast time skill longer then 2 seconds is done right wrong they wouldn't stand a chance against those you can attack from long distances

warrior vs mage (in a skill self rooting game)

warrior runs up to mage, mage has been self rooted because of a 5 second cast skill. Mage is able to get the skill off because of the warrior closing the distance. after the mage is done, the mage runs away while the warrior is self rooted into a casting melee skill. warrior can't cancel and close the gate again so the mage has a huge running lead on the warrior, if there is no mounts how is the warrior going to ever catch up to the mage? wait for the mage to cast another self rooting skill? the mage is at the max distance for the skill and the warrior once again must close the distance, when he finally gets there the mage is done and has begun to run away again. I don't find this fun or fair.

but

sorry I JUST HAVE TO:

cup o' tea. the ' replaces the letter F. I say this only cause I literally read what people right as I have a reading comprehention disability meaning that when I read, I read the words and sentences but don't actually read whats was written just the words in the sentence, which is why I'm such a grammar nazi haha and never try to post or publish anything I haven't tried to triple check as I have a tendecy when writting to not include certain words or the context is confusing (in my head it works and sounds fine, on paper sometimes people don't get what I'm getting at) despite my lack of proper caps. anyway so when I got to the cup of tea part my brain went .... tires screeching... and read it out loud as cup OH tea. which thru me off cause 12 'o clock is correct but in this case and in other cases that involving replacing letters with apostrophies. (i.e. walkin' or Ol' man Rivers) so Cup 'o tea - cup oh tea. Cup o' tea

bravo OP and as a tip you shouldn't have to include a TL;DR no one should in part because you shouldn't have to dumb down you well thought out post because a couple of ass hats can't be bothered with anything longer than a sunday comic speech bubble. It should be written TL;FDBTR - Too Long For Douche-Bags To Read

Castillle · February 2012

Im kinda facepalming at most of the posts here but basically this is what you want and not this right?

Castillle · February 2012

Just for the record Im not trying to insult anyone o.o just trying to point out its a preference thing.

OberanMiM · February 2012

More games need to do what vanguard did with combat (specifically spells)..

When you are casting a spell & you are moving, You move more slowly when casting the spell..

Your not really frozen. you have ways to cancel the spell but chosing to move while casting should slow you down.

I don't recall having this but for melee there should be attack power or accuracy penalties for attacking while moving.

Master10K · February 2012

Originally posted by Morbid77

Originally posted by Master10K

Originally posted by Loke666

I think most attacks should allow you to move while you execute them, but having one or 2 really powerful that runs an animation adds to the fun and balance out that skill.

But generally is MMO combat already too much about standing still in the same place and spamming skills so having loads of stuff like this doesn´t help.

Yeah, that's what I wished TERA was like. Heck, even GW2 is like that, with a few powerful abilities locking your character in place. But at least you can cancel them.

But all Ranged classes would pawn all others.. Period.. GG...

Not if you design the combat so that the people who go melee, have the tools to off-set the disadvantage of going against someone at range. That's something GW2 does this well. Kinda wished TERA's combat was designed ina similar fashion, where every can attack and move and melee are given the tools to easily close the gap, keep 'em close and get out when needed.

Zylaxx · February 2012

Originally posted by Morbid77
Im kinda surprised so many of you think that Animation timer is something developers make becuase they are lazy....

As I said in an FPS we dont have animation timers on the charecter. But we do have animation timers on how FAST you can shoot.. If you could Spam your BAZOOKA as fast as you shoot your Sidearm.. what do you think that would do to a game like COD or Battelfield??

You have to have some sort of animation timer, It takes you X seconds to execute an attack, leaving you open for a counter attack.. If I was to fight you in IRL I also have an animation timer.. It will take me X seconds to pull back my arm and swing over my head... And trying canceling your swing in mid Motion.. Just try it Pick UP a stick and swing it over you head FULL force and then try and stop it, and just Make another power swing.. while you are running.. Not that easy.. if you want to keep your balance..

All attacks In IRL and In games follow a pattern.. If you want to suspend Reality go right ahead. But there is no logic behind it..

Soon as I can shoot fireballs out my ass is the day that I buy the real life argument!

You can have animation timers, but do it like how WoW does, the Skill takes precidence (sp?) over the animation. Its one of the main issues that got SWTOR into hotwater with most gamers.

Dreamo84 · February 2012

This is basically whats ruining Tera for me. It wants to be fast paced but I ended up just standing there holding left click instead of running around and attacking like I want to for this "action" style of game.

revy66 · February 2012

Nearly every action or RPG video game in existence uses this type of combat. This is really a non-issue, it actually adds another dimension to the combat cause you have to decide if you should attack or not at the specific time and wrong timing is obviously unforgiving.

Castillle · February 2012

Originally posted by Fendel84M
This is basically whats ruining Tera for me. It wants to be fast paced but I ended up just standing there holding left click instead of running around and attacking like I want to for this "action" style of game.

Umm..Tera doesnt want to be fast paced. Its moderate paced. o.O

Master10K · February 2012

Originally posted by Morbid77

Originally posted by Master10K

Originally posted by Morbid77

Originally posted by Master10K

Originally posted by Loke666

I think most attacks should allow you to move while you execute them, but having one or 2 really powerful that runs an animation adds to the fun and balance out that skill.

But generally is MMO combat already too much about standing still in the same place and spamming skills so having loads of stuff like this doesn´t help.

Yeah, that's what I wished TERA was like. Heck, even GW2 is like that, with a few powerful abilities locking your character in place. But at least you can cancel them.

But all Ranged classes would pawn all others.. Period.. GG...

Not if you design the combat so that the people who go melee, have the tools to off-set the disadvantage of going against someone at range. That's something GW2 does this well. Kinda wished TERA's combat was designed ina similar fashion, where every can attack and move and melee are given the tools to easily close the gap, keep 'em close and get out when needed.

I cant explain this to you im sorry.. GW has no target system?? You cant target others??

Watch my tekken Vieo I linked, Every attack is a ROOTING.. its fast but its a rooting.. you know why because when Howrang makes a high kick I get a a split second to drop and kick his legs out...

I dont think you understand that if I have you targeted. My Computer is Linked to yours.. My computer sends info to the server.. your computer gets that info.. damage or if you dodge is applied.. You can Ofc use a dodge ability or something ells to get out of the way.. But we are still likned to one another... Take away that link and the only way for the game to Calculated if you hit me or not is... to do it ingame.. Calculating were you are and were my AXE is.. TERA has a collition detection system for a reason.. So do a fighting game like Tekken... In WoW.. and most other Online games you can run through people. You know why this is? because When I tab target you we Become LINKED.. and the system can now caulate or applied damge.

Now you're comparing MMORPG combat to fighting games.

Also no matter how many times I went through that 3rd paragraph I simply couldn't make any sense of it. Can someone help translate it for me.

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Thoughts on "Self-Rooting" Combat

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Thoughts on "Self-Rooting" Combat

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Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV