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What makes (or will make) a Good MMORPG?
Kinnakor
Member Posts: 12
I have started playing MMO's when i was in middle school back in 2000. I started out playing the original Ever Quest, and had a ton of fun at that. I played through out the many expansions having fun leveling up my character and going on raids. When World of Warcraft came along, Ever Quest slowly started to die, which upset me. But time went on and i got out of the MMO gaming field for a while, mostly becuase life was happening. Now and again i would come back to EQ to play a bit, I even tried World of Warcraft and Ever Quest 2 and a few others for awhile. Playing any MMo's just didn't seem to capture what I had enjoyed from playing original Ever Quest. So through much thought, experience and observation from playing MMO's, I have some top key-points narrowed down that i think makes a MMO enjoyable to play.
Number one reason i think what makes a MMO really enjoyable to play and perhaps would make a successful MMO is.... Freedom. yes that's right i said freedom. why do you think games like MineCraft, grand theft auto, Elder scroll games and yes even the original EQ are so(or were) successful? It is because it offered the player some degree of freedom in the game. granted some had story lines you had to follow to beat the game, but you could chose to advance or veer off from the course and do anything you wanted. Regular RPG's had a set story line you had to follow, and even some of the few games i mentioned above did. but the reason they did well is the story line kept the player interested in continuing to play so they could find out the next event/video cut scene in the game.
A game with no story line, that makes the player compelled to follow a certain path or guidelines in the game is going to make the player bored/frustrated after awhile. That is the feel i got from EverQuest 2 and World of Warcraft when making a new character. It took away the freedom of setting my own path in the world. It consisted of, ( at least to me) Starting a character, going to a certain NPC with a feather or some sort of symbol glowing above there head to start a series of quest to level up and follow. and the quest usually consisted of... 1# clicking through some text 2# opening up a Map 3# going to dot on map 4# killing set mob at dot on map 5# returning to npc to get levels reward. This seemed to go on for many many levels and it took away from the mystery and freedom to set your own path in the game. Now granted you can chose to not do those quest, but if you choose not too, you usually lack very much in the game at first and will not fair good at all in it the first part.Which i think can be a drag and be boring.
In the original Ever quest when it first came out, you started your character in the world with one note. You had to find the NPC who the note was addressed to and give it to them. there were no maps, no glowing lights or notifications above their heads signaling who the quest NPC was. You had to explore and get more involved into the world/game to figure it out. After you gave the NPC the note you were given a very low end weapon and cloth armor piece. after you had received those items..... that was IT, no quest series that constantly chose your path in the game for you or anything else to hold your hand through the game. You was left to the freedom of choosing your own path and to the mystery of exploring and unknown but captivating world. I think this is one of the main key points that people miss and cant place what it is about the original EQ that they don't see in some MMO's today.
Ok now onto the next key-point of what i think makes a great Massive Multiplayer Online game. I think Simplicity of user interface and combat systems makes a great MMO. Now mind you this opinion is mostly coming from a person who loved to play Warriors on EverQuest. Playing EverQuest 2 and some other MMO's i was overwhelmed by tons of icons, ability's and hot-bar keys that i had to set up in order just to play my character in the game. Playing a warrior in EQ 1 was simple and fun. you turned on your attack and pushed keys to kick and taunt, and that was it. Now days i have to have a Master's degree in the study of online game interface just to be able to play some of the characters you see in games now days it seems. I think that it is a contradiction to make a game with awesome graphics and have this type of system in place... playing EQ2( i played a warrior) i had 3 rows of hotbars i had to set up and learn to play my warrior. while in a group i had to constantly click and pay attention to this hot bar list. The only thing this achieved was it drew me out of the gaming experience of enjoying seeing the graphics/movement and seeing world of the game by making me pay attention and become a drone of pushing a set of keys over and over. Staring at a set of hot bar buttons to refresh and push over and over is not my version of fun. I hope most of you would agree to that.
Now i am not advocating making the user interface and combat system/interface too simple either. I just think most games have gone overboard by trying to add too much to the game because they feel if they don't the game will be a flop.
The third idea i have to make a Massive Multiplayer game more fun/engaging would be to have a player driven world economy in the game. I think deep down there is a bit of a thrifty frugal in all of us. and i think there is always a satisfaction given when someone sells and item they gained through adventure for good coin, or finding a good deal on a piece of armor or weapon. Original EQ did not intend to have certain zones set up for auction or bartering, but i always thought it was interesting to see how the player base did it on their own accord. That's why you saw zones like East Commonlands and Greater Faydark busy with players, and zone wide messages going on constantly.
So overall i think to have a good enjoyable MMO, you need to have a good degree of freedom and not too many restrictions, a good solid yet not too complicated User Interface and combat system. and to have a good player driven world economy. I think these 3 things will make the player more drawn in and engaged into the world in which they are playing. EverQuest's Motto used to be "Your in our World now" that was because they did a good job at drawing a person into the the world which was created. I also hope to see that done with future games "cough EverQuest Next" in the future. The main reason of this post was to put some ideas out there that hopefully developers would read, and to get a discussion and voice of ideas going among the player base to get their ideas out there.
Comments
It really doesn't amtter what you say makes a good MMORPG, because such opinions will differ from people to person. I know what I want from an MMORPG and you know what you want. All that really matters is for each of us to find a game that will appease the majority of our "wants". However keep in mind that no game will have everything for everyone.
Well, what can I say? Welcome to the MMORPG.com forums. While you did a good job of explaining your opinions, this is basically the same post that gets written over and over again. Hang around for a couple of hours, and you'll see someone else write exactly what you did. "EQ was a masterpiece. Going from quest hub to quest hub is lame compared to exploring. A glut of add-ons and toolbars takes the focus away from your character and their actions. More emphasis on crafting and player economy."
It would be convenient if those observations were universal truths, but they're not. Plenty of players do enjoy chain questing instead of not knowing where to go. Plenty of players prefer a game with a high skill cap at the expense of simplicity, even when the game isn't hard enough to require absolute mastery. And plenty of players dislike the inconvenience of having to hunt down a seller instead of having a central auction house.
How can you measure what makes a "good" MMORPG other than to see how many people like it? And the more people you appeal to, the more people will play it. Hell, just look at Ultima Online. It came out before EQ and doubled-up on all three of those characteristics you mentioned. More tools for economic interaction with other players, more freedom, etc. And it was even built using the IP of a popular RPG series. But because it had nonconsensual full loot PvP, it was less like a fun game and it appealed to far fewer people. EQ succeeded by shedding what the majority didn't want, and the genre's been doing that ever since.
In that span of time, people have become a lot pickier. Back in the day, whether you cared about crafting, socializing, or powergaming, you were playing EQ. It was the only show in town, so to speak. But now there are hundreds of games to choose from, and people (on these forums, anyway) have begun to feel like there should be a game that is exactly what they want. EQ wasn't exactly what you wanted, I can guarantee that. No one should be that blinded by nostalgia. But there's that feeling that EQ did everything right and that someone should be able to do it just right again.
There are a lot of games out there that have most or all of the characteristics you listed, but because they're not perfect in the way that EQ was supposedly perfect, they get passed up. And none of them will ever have the characteristic that was most important: NOVELTY. Persistant worlds hadn't existed in a form that regular gamers could enjoy (that is to say, gamers with no tolerance for text-based games or full loot PvP). No matter how closely a new MMO matches EQ, it'll never be The First(ish) MMO the way EQ was.
Hmm i guess it is my fault i havn't read more on the forums here to find out many others shared my same sentiments about EverQuest. But also noting that many people have shared my sentiments, that should at least say something about the player base of MMORPG'ers. EverQuest was that good enough of a game to be having people wanting to relive a similar type game. Now granted i am sure some of it is nostalgia like you said, perhaps that's why Project 1999 was made.
I am begining to think overall for a good MMORPG to be made, it will have to be made from the playerbase. Often people have said for a good game to be made, it has to be made from the developers as to being so fun that they themselves would enjoy it. The Developer of MInecraft was no massive Company like blizzard or sony. He started the game by himself with a few friends, and now see where he is! I also think most of his sucess from the game came from actually listening to the player base and developed the game in a direction the community wanted it to go. Perhaps in the future we can hope for a indie MMO to be developed in this same manner.
I'm pretty sure that I have different requirements for a MMO. Everquest is an example of what I don't find interesting at all anymore. To me its one giant snore fest. Trying to stay awake is not the kind of challenge that Im looking for in a game. I am also positive that having no map, a basic UI and more of these things were not because the developers thought that was a good idea. It is because they were a bunch of noobs back then and couldnt make a good game.
The whole fresh experience came from having a large world with many other players. That was new back then. The way you could meet people from all over the world inside a game was plain awesome. This first experience of that is what makes you feel so nostalgic about it. The rest of its features were mediocre at best. Most early MMO's were crappy games. Ultima Online was the exception imo.
Just goes to show that different players have different expectations of a MMO. I also prefer nonlineair games, but not if combined with crude outdated game mechanics and silly grinds.
A good MMORPG game is created when developers stop listening to big wiggs smoking cigars demanding they simulate an already successful money maker. Listen to the community......... however, what i mean by listening to the community, i mean fly them in and record the event for everyone to see. Enough of this 'so called' interviews where the developers say "we listen to our fans". What evidence is there that they listened? Not only that. Who are these people they claim they listened to? If your a sandbox designer, how do you listen to theme park players? Especially if the only game they ever play is WoW. These days, developers read random threads and seek the posts where they have the most 'thumbs up'. Little do they know, the opinion came from some pot head with black fingernail polish, long hair covering one eye.
How do you filter those players who carry a serious suggestion? Simple. Going back to what I initially said, fly them in and hear them out. Record and put this on blast.
How you chose who to fly in? I'm sure you can be creative. How do you know you have a worthy candidate? Give him the mic and let him take the floor. See how long he/she lasts when the rest of the 'so called' sandbox or themepark players listen in before he/she gets the gong. Post the videos. The comments you get back are the gold in the basket.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03r6f-K7kS0
See Guild Wars 2...
If they can pull it off, and from the glowing beta videos and previews we've gotten that pretty much prove they have, then nuff said!
I have roughly the same MMO startup story as you. But over time have fell in love with sandboxes. Ive been playing Mortal online for about a year now and would also play DF on occasion. If you havent tried either I suggest to. If you have and dont like them all you can do is wait till the future.
According to marketing statistics, the BEST mmorpg is one where you log in, are streamlined in a quest-grind leveling process, and repeat pointlessly easy instances at "level cap" in hopes that the RNG gods will drop "purps" that you "need".
If what you typed above doesnt sound sad enough already I think now those same statistics remove the RNG and everyone gets a token of some sort. Collect a few tokens and you have your armor piece.
I have to agree with the Freedom factor, this one is the biggest one missing from rpesent day MMO's.
I am really fed up of the Gameplay on Rails approach.
Order of the Silver Star, OSS
ESKA, Playing MMORPG's since Ultima Online 1997 - Order of the Silver Serpent, Atlantic Shard
Nah .. the fatest leveling is queuing up early dungeons. And this model is great. I expect Diablo 3 will be looked upon as the direction MMOs should move towards although it is not one.
See .. that is process and innvoation. Few wants to go back to the old, tried and fail, ways.
Don't play MMO's and you don't want to be dissapointed! If guild wars 2 is not what I am looking for in a game I am calling it for mmo's.
All hail the Barn Owl! oh.. and the RED SQUIRREL!!!
First -- Freedom. If you're on rails, it'll get boring. Fast.
Second -- It's an MMO. You're a small part of the universe. LOTRO handled this well. You helped, and your help was worthwhile. But you didn't get be the HERO of the meta-story. To make everyone the main hero simply diminishes the role of 'hero.' It's the MMO equivalent of the Special Olympics where everyone gets a medal... I really feel patronized when that happens. If I'm going to be 'great' its because of some meta-gaming aspect in which I excel, not the deus ex machina of a tightly-controlled, over-done plot.
In short, rewards should be earned and difficult to obtain. Not given to everyone like peanuts at the bar...
Third -- Social functions -- questing, crafting, economics, social functions, guild functions, etc. that encournage cooperation and emergent gaming.
You fail to understand that there are multiple ways to solve the problems with the old games. Pushing a transition to coop lobby based games is ONLY ONE SOLUTION. No one asking for change wants to argue over the current solution. They want a NEW DISTINCT solution.
Fine, people like lobby based coop games. THAT DOESN'T MEAN WE CAN'T ATTEMPT TO CREATE AND PLAY GAMES WHICH ARE NOT LOBBY BASED COOP GAMES. YOU CAN DO BOTH.
Freedom, customization and exploration really go hand in hand when we talk about what makes a MMO fun.
There is also the social aspect of it as well, All my great MMO experiences are together with other players, even if the same could be said for the bad ones. MMOs are social games for good and bad, the ones that gets that right are the most fun.
Of course a good MMO needs a solid ground so good programming is a must in a good MMO.
The feeling of achivement and right difficulty are things you can´t mess up either. The rush you get when you complete something hard is amazing. MMOs that are too easy with the "everybody wins" attitude miss out on that.
Yeah, that's working out so well for SWTOR...
Yes i agree the social aspect of a MMO is what makes it really enjoyable too. I think the fact that a group of people, who have to get together to achieve a common goal (grouping xp, quest, raids, etc) make some long lasting friends. Having buddys you made in game makes it more worth while to log on. I also think there has to be some solo aspect to a game though. Everyone has times where they just want to go off by themselves and kill a few lower level mobs or work on a solo quest.
A good MMORPG gives the player something to do. That's it.
Make the world first. This is what makes an MMO an MMO and not a singleplayer RPG.
The world has to be a living breathing place. The player character is NOT the center of attention from day 1. He can work his way up the ranks and eventually become an important person, but there should always be something else going on for someone else. To make a world believable, you can't center it around one person. The illusion only works on those who view MMOs as singleplayer games with optional coop.
The world must function believably. Make sure quests actually mean something and just aren't a huge pile of busy tasks to usher the player along. You can gently guide the player, but don't penalize them for going off the rails like LotRO.
Do NOT instance the world. Believability is the key.
Also, and this might be my own preference, make the world a harsh place. So many remember Morrowind because of its unfriendly dangerous atmosphere. It was so easy to get yourself killed if you weren't on your toes. This feeling of adversity will bring players together and have them working WITH eachother instead of against eachother. The world itself becomes the competition.
Those are some pretty good points Garvon3, what your describing is PvE ( Players Vs Environment). I also agree on the difficulty of it. A more difficult game makes leveling up, doing quest, tradeskill etc... more rewarding when you do actually accomplish one of these task.
Remember the MASSIVE part.
That's it. It can be any game style, art style, whatever.
Bringing BIG and WORLD back to the genre would seem like a breath of fresh air now sadly enough.
I used to play MMOs like you, but then I took an arrow to the knee.
It could also work in sandbox PvP games, but for me my favorite PvP system was DAoC's. It wasn't as believable or as free form as sandbox PvP, but I felt it was the perfect balance between PvE and PvP games. An area of the world where concentual PvP could happen...but it wasn't instanced. In theory (and in fact, several times this did happen) the enemy players could break through the defenses into the "safe zones".
Same. I don't like rails. I'm a play it your way, type person. In real life I'm one for self-determination and I mostly do my own thing. I like it when I can find "my own thing" in games as well. The more a game becomes intrusive into me doing my own thing, the less I like it.
I played EQ1 in 2000 also and find alot of the games today disappointing....THe problem was EQ1s heyday didnt last very long and they changed the game with alot of expansions.....Unfortunately you wont find anything like it anymore nor will anyone attempt to make a game like it again.....ITs kinda like telling people how great your 1980s Atari was and how you wished that consoles today were like that......Todays games are all about making money or they go under......Very very few games attempt to break the mold and create a unique hardcore game.