I vaguely remember reading somewhere about something about rotating DEs every now and then so that you hardly ever get repeats, can't remember if it was an actual source or someone saying it as an idea. But if it isn't part of the actual game, I think if they did implement rotating DEs and making new DEs then that would be a great idea for keeping the game fresh and new, whilst still removing the 'grindy' feel.
Edit: My only hope that there will be a smither of competence in GW2 are those dungeons. Basically in any other part of the game you can be utterly bad and noone will notice or care or even have a way of telling.
You're right that the craze about GW2 is reaching absurd levels. About this last part. I hope elite events (such as The Shatterer and majority of the DE's on the continent of Orr) will also provide a challenge, even if they are meant for big unorganized groups.
As long as the difficulty is their it will still be fun to do DE over again. You have to realize how big the world is to understand how many DE's their are. Since they are repeatable you will always have some fun ones to do.
The loot you get from doing DE are always at your level, since it is the same way in WvW. So a lvl 80 doing low level event will give you lvl 80 gear. This is a rumor that I have not comformed but "the chance of getting a high quality gear from a low level event decreases."
I only grinded in mmo when no one esle was on. This increased my profit for that hour or so when I did it. If a mmo ever felt like grinding was the only thing to do in the game I would quit (dragonnest). I did not grind to much in the good games since their was alway friend on to do dungeons/pvp with.
I think most events will start from a static NPC, but then that NPC will only be seen by one player and others will join the event when its allready started and never see the one " ! " from there on things will feel dynamic.
You have this a little sideways. There are NPCs you can talk to which will provide you information on an event happening near by but they don't actually start the event. The event will happen with or without speaking to the NPC first.
From watching some Yogscast videos it actually seems more of a detriment to speak to NPCs while there is an even going on nearby because while you're busy talking to the guy you're not gaining participation points that go toward acquiring better loot for the event.
There are, of course, other NPCs that do have more traditional WoW-style quests to offer but the dynamic events will be triggered by things happening within the game-space, not by speaking to an NPC.
Special note: That's not to say that talking to NPCs might not be a part of some dynamic events, but the system itself does not require this to function.
I am not talking about scouts, there will be NPC's and other things starting the first step of a dynamic event chain. From there on it flows, but every event chain needs an initial trigger, most times that will be NPC's you interact with or stuff you touch. It could also be the first of a certain mob type you kill that starts a chain, or another action... but many times it will be an NPC you chat with...and those NPCS might be very recognisabe.
But.. Those events are not random computer generated but scripted as far as I know..
So in a while people will know exactly what to do to trigger what event, wikis will be written etc. Taking away the dynamic/random part of it. right?
I honestly hope it works out the way ANet is planning it. I do however detect the same fervor from people just prior SW:TOR launched. Post launch and after a month and the honeymoon period is over, people realised what they were actually playing. That game is of course quite successful, so nothing says that a one pillar game can't turn a profit. Still, a game that relies on one thing to keep people entertained, can't possibly do it for long.
i used yur quote to summarize the thread. so, please dont take offense if what i have to say is misrepresentative, in any way.
i hope anet get's it right too. the DE's are really just "kill ten rats quests", only they are offered up in a different way. i won't have to run back and forth between different npc's to continue on the quests. the quests update, and i continue on my merry way in an easier fashion. the world progresses with me as i progress the story of that particular event.
the de's may be fun to do a few times, but after maybe 3 or 4 times they will get boring. just like any other game, i can only do the same thing so many times. i dont care if my level is reduced to be equivalent, after i have done the same event a certain number of times i will be bored with it.
See thats a little misleading.. there certainly are some kill so many events but many are way more than that. I have also not seen an event that was the same as another event, in sequence or style. Even ones that are doing the same thing like retaking a village, you do different things to get that village back. Also this is not refering to the hearts, those static events that are pretty simialr to normal quests in other MMOs.
the video's ive watched have pretty much all equated to "killl the miners", "collect the ore", "protect the captain". in that order, maybe wrong wording on my part. but the de's are the same basic quests we've come accustomed to, they are just presented in a different way, and we don't have to run back and forth to progress. is it a better quest system? yes, imo. but they are the same quests we have been doing for years.
There is a lot that goes into what causes something to be considered a grind, so I've highlighted the key points and even added a summary for the particularly lazy time-constrained. Some people say grinding depends on your mindset, but I don't agree with this in the sense it's usually meant. The way a game is designed tailors a player's mindset.
For example, why do some players like to solo in games? Does WoW attract more solo players? While there are certainly more solo players in games like WoW, I would not say this is because it attracts players who don't like to socialize. It's the same way a game like Darkfall or EVE can cause you to fear other players. You don't necessarily begin those games fearing other players. WoW's poor design (heavy focus on individual goals, monster tagging, resource competition, very static world) gives you no reason to group in most cases and can often cause you to even resent the mere presence of other players. Players don't usually begin WoW with that mindset. It instills it in you. Each time you play a new game, you'll adapt a new mindset appropriate to that game.
Grind works in a similar way. In general, people play games to have fun. When you play a game, you're going to choose the way to play that you personally feel is the most fun. Or, at least, you're going to want to. What were once methods of pacing content (levels, gold, etc.) are now typically used as rewards. Countless developers have the misconception that players won't play their game unless there's a reward for doing so. While rewarding players can certainly motivate them, it won't guarantee their fun.
Here's where the problem comes in. WAR is a very good example in this case. You've got several ways to play the game: quests, PQs, dungeons, battlefields, and scenarios. On the PvE side, let's say you really enjoy the PQs. You play them whenever you can, but as you progress, you notice that running them isn't really quite so efficient. You can level faster by other means, and the rewards you get for completing PQs become irrelevant after a few levels. Other players have clearly noticed this as well because you find so few people even attempting PQs. PvP suffers from the same problems. Maybe you find skirmishing on battlefields fun. That doesn't matter, because the most efficient route to the rewards is to disregard the enemy faction and trade keeps over and over. Players will always take the most efficient route to the greatest rewards.
So what defines a grind? Getting rewarded when you're not having fun. It's the same as a job: "the daily grind". Rewards with fun aren't a grind, and fun without rewards aren't a grind either. If you have neither rewards nor fun, it's still not a grind. It's the specific presence of rewards without fun. The sole culprit of what creates the feeling of grinding is the presence of rewarding players.
Too many developers include rewards out of fear that players will not play their game if there are no rewards. While this is often true, it's not always the case. WAR has a lot of fun activities, but the presence of rewards on the activities that aren't fun ruins it. I just tried out Tera's beta, and while the combat system is great, the questing makes it into a grind. Rewards can squeeze out longer sessions, but make burned out players hesitant to return.
Even fun activities will become boring after a time, but only when rewards are offered do they become a chore. With rewards, you feel compelled to play them even after you've become bored, causing you to resent them. Without rewards, you will move onto something else, but as the time spent playing was fun, you will likely return. The content never stopped being fun because you gave it a break before it could. With a reward offered, you may continue to play even after you don't want to. This is a grind.
So why won't GW2 have grind? Because once you hit the level cap and get any set of level 80 gear, there are no more significant rewards. You can play any content. It's all equally unrewarding. Or I should say, the only reward you will get from it is fun. If you aren't having fun, then you'll find no reason to play, just as it should be. You'll get bored and move on, but, remembering it fondly, you're likely to return. ArenaNet are banking on players actually having fun instead of attempting to lead them with a carrot, and this is exactly why they're so dedicated to getting it just right. If they fuck up and players aren't having fun, that's it. No one will want to play. At all.
While the carrot is extremely powerful (Farmville), it doesn't earn you a lot of respect.
And this doesn't even touch on the negative effects a monthly fee can have on the way you think when "playing" a game.
tl;dr Grind only exists because of the presence of rewards without fun. ArenaNet is banking on their game being fun and offering very few rewards. This will create less feelings of grind.
"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." -Dr. Seuss
the dynamic events (DE) aren't about grind. they are about style and narative.
so one of the big complaints about tera is it is grindy. why is that? it is grindy because it has very few types of quests, most are kill quests....
back to guildwars 2. how grindy the game will be has nothing to do with DE. it has to do with the mechanic diversity and the narative. the degrees of freedom within the DE.
what does that mean?
well what does dynamic mean? it means it increases or decreases allong a metric in an organic manner with plethora variety of outcomes.
so lets say a villiage is under attack. the number of different things you can do to participate in the event constrain the diversity of the interaction with the event at that moment in time, that diversity/intrigue increases geometrically as the effects of what happens occurs. if there is only one or two major types of interaction with that event stage, then it might get grindy. it then depends on narative and immersion, whether the suspension of disbelief holds or the scripting of the world makes you aware you have done the same thing 1000x before.
this is further effected by how dirverse the number of dynamic events are within a locale. if you don't find the same villiage being beset with raiders every damn time then the intent of the DE, and quest shifting, might be wonderful. creating a sorta random overworld instancing. with rare, but possible, reruns.
if further layered with roleplaying elements so you can contribute in a variety of different but equal ways, it could be amazing. but here is the thing. i doubt we have the technology to do something that amazing. i hope for the best, but considering how many companies you deceptive fluffing to sell their product through false advertising, i expect nothing.
i highly doubt tera could have about 7 types of quests (kill, gathering, kill-to-gather, escourt, protect, talk to npc, use item on object/mob) and guildwars2 could have 1500 at the same divergence level. i hope it does, but i doubt it. i'd be happy with 15 types of quests, with about 3 possible choices during a DE. as a developer i hope they don't make me so happy i don't want to compete :O
the dynamic events (DE) aren't about grind. they are about style and narative.
so one of the big complaints about tera is it is grindy. why is that? it is grindy because it has very few types of quests, most are kill quests....
back to guildwars 2. how grindy the game will be has nothing to do with DE. it has to do with the mechanic diversity and the narative. the degrees of freedom within the DE.
what does that mean?
well what does dynamic mean? it means it increases or decreases allong a metric in an organic manner with plethora variety of outcomes.
so lets say a villiage is under attack. the number of different things you can do to participate in the event constrain the diversity of the interaction with the event at that moment in time, that diversity/intrigue increases geometrically as the effects of what happens occurs. if there is only one or two major types of interaction with that event stage, then it might get grindy. it then depends on narative and immersion, whether the suspension of disbelief holds or the scripting of the world makes you aware you have done the same thing 1000x before.
this is further effected by how dirverse the number of dynamic events are within a locale. if you don't find the same villiage being beset with raiders every damn time then the intent of the DE, and quest shifting, might be wonderful. creating a sorta random overworld instancing. with rare, but possible, reruns.
if further layered with roleplaying elements so you can contribute in a variety of different but equal ways, it could be amazing. but here is the thing. i doubt we have the technology to do something that amazing. i hope for the best, but considering how many companies you deceptive fluffing to sell their product through false advertising, i expect nothing.
i highly doubt tera could have about 7 types of quests (kill, gathering, kill-to-gather, escourt, protect, talk to npc, use item on object/mob) and guildwars2 could have 1500 at the same divergence level. i hope it does, but i doubt it. i'd be happy with 15 types of quests, with about 3 possible choices during a DE. as a developer i hope they don't make me so happy i don't want to compete :O
I am sorry but apart from all the techincal jibber jabber you just posted there is nothing that is stopping from people to feel that DE's are getting grindy. The DE's might change but the pattern remains the same. Tera quests might be about killing x number of rats..but you are doing the same in DE's killing number of x and defending y and escorting z.
Yes the same boring mundane activity has been giving a new look and name but no one can say with surety for how long it will stay fresh and keep people interested.
I don't see how this game could ever be considered grindy. Unless someone resents the fact that they actually have to play the game to advance in the game and become a better player? Then, I wouldn't know what to say to such a person.
The flat leveling curve after level 20 is the first thing that counters the need for grind. When a game is chock full of content, but it only takes about an hour and a half to level, every level, from 20 to 80, you'll never have to grind to see ongoing progress.
The game is full of Dynamic Events, but there are also assorted mobs through out the world. If you just go and explore, you will find content. You can chose what you want to participate in and what you don't want to participate in. There is no checklist of quests in a quest journal you need to complete and you can hop in and out of Dynamic Event Chains at any stage and be able to earn full rewards for those individual events. There are even hidden areas for those who go looking with content to reward you for your exploration.
You can also level by doing your Personal Story, 5-man Dungeons or by heading off into World vs. World.
I can't imagine an MMO offering more raw content, or more variety of content, let alone the freedom to chart the path you want to follow, than GW2. You can even back track and go experience lower level content you may have missed or liked so much you want to experience it again, with your level scaled appropriately, but XP and loot based on your actual level!
How would any of this ever provide a grind of any kind, unless someone makes the deliberate choice to try to find something they can grind? Any grind will be of the player's choice, not a result of game design or lack of content.
(If anyone actually prefers to grind, since you can't ever really outlevel an area, you could just grind a particular area of a particular zones until the grind was coming out of your ears. I don't know why anyone would want to do that, but the choice is the individuals).
Also, presenting most PVE content in the form of DEs does not mean that there somehow exists a DE grind. It's a method of delivering content that emphasizes a players ability to decide the content they wish to participate in and often gives choices on how one can contribute to events they do partake in.
How can choice coupled with an over abundance of content ever be monotonous? Does anyone really suppose that someone will be playing GW2 some day and say "Man, I'm sick of Dynamic Events, I could really go for a quest hub right now! It better provide quests bundled in long, linear quest lines that I have to complete in a fixed order and I hope I need to complete them all in order to be high enough level to go to the next quest hub and repeat the process all over again. Oh, and yeah, I really hope I need to run back and forth over and over again between the quest hub and the actual content..."?
For a while ... if you're tired of MMOs in general, I don't think GW2 will help. Look at it this way, GW2 dynamic events are a massive revamp of WARhammer's dynamic events. (When you had people around you) they were interesting, but doing them over and over again did lose some of the appeal. Can't help with that. Same thing with Rift's invasions really.
I kind of fear that if DE are the one pillar of GW2, the game will crumble the same way SW:TOR did with the one pillar storyline. Or maybe not, SW:TOR seem to be quite the success at this point, although it's not much of an mmorpg.
Xasapis, I've seen the rest of the posts you put here but I wanted to highlight what really fucked up the whole flow of what could of been some good feedback, I just wanted to point that out. Oh and also please for God sake start being "real" see being "real" requires a lot work, I'm assuming, see if one was to be "real" he/she would know that Warhammer PQ's and Rift invasion are different, because they are lol, and it's already been listed as to why they are, but while eating my popcorn I said "This guy is only going to reply making claims he did try games with those points(Not a MMO) and disagree, but can't say he played GW 2 as well, nor will he show a DE that's a grind that helps back up his case, which if he does it'd be one and not all."
I understand you are trying to sooth hype, but see you keep fucking up when you throw out misinformation alongside assumptions. You really had no true answer, an it started an outcry. Oh and for your information GW 2 has more than just a "one pillar storyline."
OP: After looking at videos and what not it all depends on what you think is a grind, you'll have one where you go feed cows, and capture rabits and return them to the owner. Though keep in mind while doing things like that monsters could come and take over changing the whole flow. You have DE's where you raid a ghost tower, and the only way to take it down is by team work by vaping the point(just like raiding keeps in WvWvW). Now you have choice in the game to do ones you like or don't like unless your a completionest. You also got under water DE's, even DE's in dungeons. Some are defense events, but see the crazy thing about DE's is due to them chaining you might have a few grind parts like collect ore in mine to give to one guy, but in doing so he'll be able to sell items.
So dependin on what you think is grind that's all you, MMO's where not for me because of this very thing. I wasn't able to get into Rifts,Warhammer,Warcraft,SWTOR, and Tera's beta, because of the grind and boredom.
However unlike the above due to DE's being the focus in PVE alongside Personal Story, one is able to get into it better and their more organic an don't have a kill such and such in order to have them do the same thing after stopping them I.E push and pull events with flame legion or centaurs. Inflitrating open world "dungeons" or hideouts in order to take a captian out, and then it turns into your own hide out and what not, if you want to R/P. Use a cannon, enviromental weapons in order to complete an event, and the list goes on.
Keep in mind though we seen all this in only 3 out of 25 zones from the press beta. Regardless if many are repeated in other zones, it's better than quests that only want you to do one thing. See because DE's also let you do many thins you want to, so you won't feel that grins, you can actualy help contribute to DE's without combat, long as someone else is helping the cause, or you can do a little of every task, not in an ordered list but how you want to.
So yea that's that, y'all take it how you want to, experincing it like I say a million times, is a huge difference from PQ's and Rifts.
I will not respond to anything else in this thread, I'm out and take care guys.
Disclaimer: I'm not mad when I cuss it's the way I talk ha ha.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
Warhammer PQ's and Rift invasion are different they are lol,
Yes, they are designed to play out a bit differently in how stages work. I think many misunderstand where the critique and impressions come from that you're replying to. While you're looking at the dynamic nature and using that to say it's different. The other person is looking at specific tasks and goals you will be performing regardless of that dynamic design. What they're saying is these tasks and goals are the same old same old. Doesn't even have to be a bad thing, it just is what it is.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
yes there will be grind. the quests in gw2 are barely dynamic
you kill a black dragon outside of a town and saves the town from destruction, a dynamic event would mean: the dragon randomly appeared in the city > dragon got killed -> city is safe from evil -> dragon never shows up in that town again -> you feel like you actually saved the town from a random dragon that tried to destroy it
but na, in gw2 you kill this so dynamic dragon then 30 mins later he respawns and you can do it all over again. that's dynamic? get the F outta here.
the only thing this game has going for it is the no trinity system, just like UO days. Can't wait to see how that works out.
yes there will be grind. the quests in gw2 are barely dynamic
you kill a black dragon outside of a town and saves the town from destruction, a dynamic event would mean: the dragon randomly appeared in the city > dragon got killed -> city is safe from evil -> dragon never shows up in that town again -> you feel like you actually saved the town from a random dragon that tried to destroy it
but na, in gw2 you kill this so dynamic dragon then 30 mins later he respawns and you can do it all over again. that's dynamic? get the F outta here.
the only thing this game has going for it is the no trinity system, just like UO days. Can't wait to see how that works out.
dude, they are "DYNAMIC", what are you talking about? they change the world FOREVER. even says so in the manifesto.
For a while ... if you're tired of MMOs in general, I don't think GW2 will help. Look at it this way, GW2 dynamic events are a massive revamp of WARhammer's dynamic events. (When you had people around you) they were interesting, but doing them over and over again did lose some of the appeal. Can't help with that. Same thing with Rift's invasions really.
I kind of fear that if DE are the one pillar of GW2, the game will crumble the same way SW:TOR did with the one pillar storyline. Or maybe not, SW:TOR seem to be quite the success at this point, although it's not much of an mmorpg.
I will have to disagree with you here. I am honestly very tired of mmorpgs having played dozens of them with each one being a carbon copy of the previous except for 1 or 2 features that try to make it a little innovative from the previous. Having said that, there is no GAME (not just mmorpg) out there that excites me as much as GW2. After following every single bit of info and vids for the past...3 years is it? I am just as excited, if not more, than I ever was and can't wait for it. So when the devs say in their menifesto "if you love mmos you'll want to check out GW2 and if you hate mmos you will really want to check out GW2" I am totally buying into it. From all I read, seen and heard, it is living up to every expectation I have of it, and all these expectations are fully realistic as I have seen them in action during gameplay footages.
I am sure there are many others who feel this way especially the GW fans on guildwars2guru.com site.
Lots of present tense used where future tense should be used instead. The game is not out yet, thus it "has" nothing right now. It may have or it may get pulled, changed, revamped or postponed for an expansion. From what is presented in the videos, GW2 seem to launch with certain features, but the game as it stands now has none, simply because it has not launched yet.
Edit for the guy just above me: I am too excited about the game, I'm also excited about Tera and TSW. Also excited about World of Darkness and a lot of games that are yet to launch. The thing is, until the game launches and the claims are proven justified, the manifesto will remain a huge trol bait that all the disgrunded mmorpg veterans have fallen into believing, after years of continious disappointment. I'm fairly optimistic, but on the other hand, nobody can say that they won't pull a Mythic on us.
dude, they are "DYNAMIC", what are you talking about? they change the world FOREVER. even says so in the manifesto.
That's not what I've heard at all, I've heard DE's start at zero and eventually return to zero. As in they're Cyclic.
DE's do not cycle automatically nor do they have forever lasting impact. If centaurs take over an outpost, that outpost will stay in the hands of the centaurs until players do something about it, that could be days, it could also be years, in theory.
Basically Dynamic event chains look like this (with eacht letter being a Dynamic Event):
A --> B --> C --> D --> E
If players do not interfere or if players fail all the time, the chain will go more and more towards E, which is the best situation from the badguys point of view. If players win all the time, the chain will go more and more towards A, which is the worst situation from the badguys point of view.
I think most events will start from a static NPC, but then that NPC will only be seen by one player and others will join the event when its allready started and never see the one " ! " from there on things will feel dynamic.
You have this a little sideways. There are NPCs you can talk to which will provide you information on an event happening near by but they don't actually start the event. The event will happen with or without speaking to the NPC first.
From watching some Yogscast videos it actually seems more of a detriment to speak to NPCs while there is an even going on nearby because while you're busy talking to the guy you're not gaining participation points that go toward acquiring better loot for the event.
There are, of course, other NPCs that do have more traditional WoW-style quests to offer but the dynamic events will be triggered by things happening within the game-space, not by speaking to an NPC.
Special note: That's not to say that talking to NPCs might not be a part of some dynamic events, but the system itself does not require this to function.
I am not talking about scouts, there will be NPC's and other things starting the first step of a dynamic event chain. From there on it flows, but every event chain needs an initial trigger, most times that will be NPC's you interact with or stuff you touch. It could also be the first of a certain mob type you kill that starts a chain, or another action... but many times it will be an NPC you chat with...and those NPCS might be very recognisabe.
But.. Those events are not random computer generated but scripted as far as I know..
So in a while people will know exactly what to do to trigger what event, wikis will be written etc. Taking away the dynamic/random part of it. right?
Why does everyone think scripts have tro be static ? Oh yeah, tahts what WoW scripts where.
In my humble opinion you could script as much randomness as you want.
-Random size
-random triggers
-Random mob actions.
-Random you name it...
If you want real dynamics, there needs to be some randomness, and that could easilly be scripted in these dynamic events.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Because when i first played EQ, i was allways exploring things and killed stuff inbetween, but later on killing got more important, and the game started feeling grindy
Because in WoW at first i was allways doing quests, which took away the grindy feeling, but at the end i ended up with grinding quests.
Because in every MMO out there, i ended up grinding and loosing interest to the game.
The only thing exciting enough not to feel like a grind was DAoC's RvR, but then DAoC's PvE was the most grindy of them all. And WoW made even the PvP battlegrounds grindy.
So will the dynamic nature, combined with explorations and WvWvW be enough to take away the grindy nature fo MMO's?
I think they will take away some of it, you know that thing when you filled up your questlog and have to run the more uninteresting killing 10 rats quests before doing something interesting again. They will also add a feeling of urgency to what you do, you can´t wait an hour to help save the village (which usually never even are in danger), do something now or the place will burn down.
But some things will still feel grindy no matter what. You can't expect to play a game for years without repetetive content. My guess is that you will mostly grind titles and score in the Mists (the later won't be grindy from the start but after long enough it will still feel grindy to take a keep for your guild nd hold it 2 weeks).
I hope that the DEs will feel different from regular quests, they really still are but you have more of a choice what to do, you do it with other players and how it goes will affect the gameworld for a while.
For a while ... if you're tired of MMOs in general, I don't think GW2 will help. Look at it this way, GW2 dynamic events are a massive revamp of WARhammer's dynamic events. (When you had people around you) they were interesting, but doing them over and over again did lose some of the appeal. Can't help with that. Same thing with Rift's invasions really.
I kind of fear that if DE are the one pillar of GW2, the game will crumble the same way SW:TOR did with the one pillar storyline. Or maybe not, SW:TOR seem to be quite the success at this point, although it's not much of an mmorpg.
This pretty much sums it up. I think there are more disheartend gamers in denial about themselves. I think the state of the MMO gnere is suffering from a 1-2 punch. 1. Developers have released a lot of garbage lately. But not everything is garbage.
I don't think Rift is garbage. Just not overly original. But what it does it does really well. Better IMO that the game that inspired it.
But the other side of the coin is that we as gamers have evolved. What stimulated us in 2004 does not stimulate us in 2012.
GW2's DEs are not revolutionary but rather evolutionery. They are the next step in the direction from WAR and RIFT. But they aren't new overall.
To put it in perspective, when I'd 1st started playing Rift, I remember my 1st zone invasion. I was questing along as I had been expecting and doing my own thing. Then next thing I knew I was in a raid group with 19 other people chasing raid bosses across the land.
I was blown away. "THIS.....IS......AWESOME!" I thought. And it was. I still play Rift and I will still go out of my wayt to join a zone event, but in time, they have lost the same level of impact they had when I 1st did them.
As I said GW2 is not revolutionary. So while they are a step or 2 further then where this concept had previously been taken, I cant see this as anything more than "New car smell"
Those of you who beta tested these in GW2, are seeing them in the same light i described my 1st Rift invasion.
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I vaguely remember reading somewhere about something about rotating DEs every now and then so that you hardly ever get repeats, can't remember if it was an actual source or someone saying it as an idea. But if it isn't part of the actual game, I think if they did implement rotating DEs and making new DEs then that would be a great idea for keeping the game fresh and new, whilst still removing the 'grindy' feel.
You're right that the craze about GW2 is reaching absurd levels. About this last part. I hope elite events (such as The Shatterer and majority of the DE's on the continent of Orr) will also provide a challenge, even if they are meant for big unorganized groups.
As long as the difficulty is their it will still be fun to do DE over again. You have to realize how big the world is to understand how many DE's their are. Since they are repeatable you will always have some fun ones to do.
The loot you get from doing DE are always at your level, since it is the same way in WvW. So a lvl 80 doing low level event will give you lvl 80 gear. This is a rumor that I have not comformed but "the chance of getting a high quality gear from a low level event decreases."
I only grinded in mmo when no one esle was on. This increased my profit for that hour or so when I did it. If a mmo ever felt like grinding was the only thing to do in the game I would quit (dragonnest). I did not grind to much in the good games since their was alway friend on to do dungeons/pvp with.
But.. Those events are not random computer generated but scripted as far as I know..
So in a while people will know exactly what to do to trigger what event, wikis will be written etc. Taking away the dynamic/random part of it. right?
the video's ive watched have pretty much all equated to "killl the miners", "collect the ore", "protect the captain". in that order, maybe wrong wording on my part. but the de's are the same basic quests we've come accustomed to, they are just presented in a different way, and we don't have to run back and forth to progress. is it a better quest system? yes, imo. but they are the same quests we have been doing for years.
I've got the straight edge.
There is a lot that goes into what causes something to be considered a grind, so I've highlighted the key points and even added a summary for the particularly lazy time-constrained. Some people say grinding depends on your mindset, but I don't agree with this in the sense it's usually meant. The way a game is designed tailors a player's mindset.
For example, why do some players like to solo in games? Does WoW attract more solo players? While there are certainly more solo players in games like WoW, I would not say this is because it attracts players who don't like to socialize. It's the same way a game like Darkfall or EVE can cause you to fear other players. You don't necessarily begin those games fearing other players. WoW's poor design (heavy focus on individual goals, monster tagging, resource competition, very static world) gives you no reason to group in most cases and can often cause you to even resent the mere presence of other players. Players don't usually begin WoW with that mindset. It instills it in you. Each time you play a new game, you'll adapt a new mindset appropriate to that game.
Grind works in a similar way. In general, people play games to have fun. When you play a game, you're going to choose the way to play that you personally feel is the most fun. Or, at least, you're going to want to. What were once methods of pacing content (levels, gold, etc.) are now typically used as rewards. Countless developers have the misconception that players won't play their game unless there's a reward for doing so. While rewarding players can certainly motivate them, it won't guarantee their fun.
Here's where the problem comes in. WAR is a very good example in this case. You've got several ways to play the game: quests, PQs, dungeons, battlefields, and scenarios. On the PvE side, let's say you really enjoy the PQs. You play them whenever you can, but as you progress, you notice that running them isn't really quite so efficient. You can level faster by other means, and the rewards you get for completing PQs become irrelevant after a few levels. Other players have clearly noticed this as well because you find so few people even attempting PQs. PvP suffers from the same problems. Maybe you find skirmishing on battlefields fun. That doesn't matter, because the most efficient route to the rewards is to disregard the enemy faction and trade keeps over and over. Players will always take the most efficient route to the greatest rewards.
So what defines a grind? Getting rewarded when you're not having fun. It's the same as a job: "the daily grind". Rewards with fun aren't a grind, and fun without rewards aren't a grind either. If you have neither rewards nor fun, it's still not a grind. It's the specific presence of rewards without fun. The sole culprit of what creates the feeling of grinding is the presence of rewarding players.
Too many developers include rewards out of fear that players will not play their game if there are no rewards. While this is often true, it's not always the case. WAR has a lot of fun activities, but the presence of rewards on the activities that aren't fun ruins it. I just tried out Tera's beta, and while the combat system is great, the questing makes it into a grind. Rewards can squeeze out longer sessions, but make burned out players hesitant to return.
Even fun activities will become boring after a time, but only when rewards are offered do they become a chore. With rewards, you feel compelled to play them even after you've become bored, causing you to resent them. Without rewards, you will move onto something else, but as the time spent playing was fun, you will likely return. The content never stopped being fun because you gave it a break before it could. With a reward offered, you may continue to play even after you don't want to. This is a grind.
So why won't GW2 have grind? Because once you hit the level cap and get any set of level 80 gear, there are no more significant rewards. You can play any content. It's all equally unrewarding. Or I should say, the only reward you will get from it is fun. If you aren't having fun, then you'll find no reason to play, just as it should be. You'll get bored and move on, but, remembering it fondly, you're likely to return. ArenaNet are banking on players actually having fun instead of attempting to lead them with a carrot, and this is exactly why they're so dedicated to getting it just right. If they fuck up and players aren't having fun, that's it. No one will want to play. At all.
While the carrot is extremely powerful (Farmville), it doesn't earn you a lot of respect.
And this doesn't even touch on the negative effects a monthly fee can have on the way you think when "playing" a game.
tl;dr Grind only exists because of the presence of rewards without fun. ArenaNet is banking on their game being fun and offering very few rewards. This will create less feelings of grind.
"Be who you are and say what you feel because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind." -Dr. Seuss
the dynamic events (DE) aren't about grind. they are about style and narative.
so one of the big complaints about tera is it is grindy. why is that? it is grindy because it has very few types of quests, most are kill quests....
back to guildwars 2. how grindy the game will be has nothing to do with DE. it has to do with the mechanic diversity and the narative. the degrees of freedom within the DE.
what does that mean?
well what does dynamic mean? it means it increases or decreases allong a metric in an organic manner with plethora variety of outcomes.
so lets say a villiage is under attack. the number of different things you can do to participate in the event constrain the diversity of the interaction with the event at that moment in time, that diversity/intrigue increases geometrically as the effects of what happens occurs. if there is only one or two major types of interaction with that event stage, then it might get grindy. it then depends on narative and immersion, whether the suspension of disbelief holds or the scripting of the world makes you aware you have done the same thing 1000x before.
this is further effected by how dirverse the number of dynamic events are within a locale. if you don't find the same villiage being beset with raiders every damn time then the intent of the DE, and quest shifting, might be wonderful. creating a sorta random overworld instancing. with rare, but possible, reruns.
if further layered with roleplaying elements so you can contribute in a variety of different but equal ways, it could be amazing. but here is the thing. i doubt we have the technology to do something that amazing. i hope for the best, but considering how many companies you deceptive fluffing to sell their product through false advertising, i expect nothing.
i highly doubt tera could have about 7 types of quests (kill, gathering, kill-to-gather, escourt, protect, talk to npc, use item on object/mob) and guildwars2 could have 1500 at the same divergence level. i hope it does, but i doubt it. i'd be happy with 15 types of quests, with about 3 possible choices during a DE. as a developer i hope they don't make me so happy i don't want to compete :O
I am sorry but apart from all the techincal jibber jabber you just posted there is nothing that is stopping from people to feel that DE's are getting grindy. The DE's might change but the pattern remains the same. Tera quests might be about killing x number of rats..but you are doing the same in DE's killing number of x and defending y and escorting z.
Yes the same boring mundane activity has been giving a new look and name but no one can say with surety for how long it will stay fresh and keep people interested.
Shroom mage I think I like your definition of what grind is, is one of the best I've heard so far.
Grind is when you get rewarded when not having fun.
Nice one.
I don't see how this game could ever be considered grindy. Unless someone resents the fact that they actually have to play the game to advance in the game and become a better player? Then, I wouldn't know what to say to such a person.
The flat leveling curve after level 20 is the first thing that counters the need for grind. When a game is chock full of content, but it only takes about an hour and a half to level, every level, from 20 to 80, you'll never have to grind to see ongoing progress.
The game is full of Dynamic Events, but there are also assorted mobs through out the world. If you just go and explore, you will find content. You can chose what you want to participate in and what you don't want to participate in. There is no checklist of quests in a quest journal you need to complete and you can hop in and out of Dynamic Event Chains at any stage and be able to earn full rewards for those individual events. There are even hidden areas for those who go looking with content to reward you for your exploration.
You can also level by doing your Personal Story, 5-man Dungeons or by heading off into World vs. World.
I can't imagine an MMO offering more raw content, or more variety of content, let alone the freedom to chart the path you want to follow, than GW2. You can even back track and go experience lower level content you may have missed or liked so much you want to experience it again, with your level scaled appropriately, but XP and loot based on your actual level!
How would any of this ever provide a grind of any kind, unless someone makes the deliberate choice to try to find something they can grind? Any grind will be of the player's choice, not a result of game design or lack of content.
(If anyone actually prefers to grind, since you can't ever really outlevel an area, you could just grind a particular area of a particular zones until the grind was coming out of your ears. I don't know why anyone would want to do that, but the choice is the individuals).
Also, presenting most PVE content in the form of DEs does not mean that there somehow exists a DE grind. It's a method of delivering content that emphasizes a players ability to decide the content they wish to participate in and often gives choices on how one can contribute to events they do partake in.
How can choice coupled with an over abundance of content ever be monotonous? Does anyone really suppose that someone will be playing GW2 some day and say "Man, I'm sick of Dynamic Events, I could really go for a quest hub right now! It better provide quests bundled in long, linear quest lines that I have to complete in a fixed order and I hope I need to complete them all in order to be high enough level to go to the next quest hub and repeat the process all over again. Oh, and yeah, I really hope I need to run back and forth over and over again between the quest hub and the actual content..."?
Want to know more about GW2 and why there is so much buzz? Start here: Guild Wars 2 Mass Info for the Uninitiated
Xasapis, I've seen the rest of the posts you put here but I wanted to highlight what really fucked up the whole flow of what could of been some good feedback, I just wanted to point that out. Oh and also please for God sake start being "real" see being "real" requires a lot work, I'm assuming, see if one was to be "real" he/she would know that Warhammer PQ's and Rift invasion are different, because they are lol, and it's already been listed as to why they are, but while eating my popcorn I said "This guy is only going to reply making claims he did try games with those points(Not a MMO) and disagree, but can't say he played GW 2 as well, nor will he show a DE that's a grind that helps back up his case, which if he does it'd be one and not all."
I understand you are trying to sooth hype, but see you keep fucking up when you throw out misinformation alongside assumptions. You really had no true answer, an it started an outcry. Oh and for your information GW 2 has more than just a "one pillar storyline."
OP: After looking at videos and what not it all depends on what you think is a grind, you'll have one where you go feed cows, and capture rabits and return them to the owner. Though keep in mind while doing things like that monsters could come and take over changing the whole flow. You have DE's where you raid a ghost tower, and the only way to take it down is by team work by vaping the point(just like raiding keeps in WvWvW). Now you have choice in the game to do ones you like or don't like unless your a completionest. You also got under water DE's, even DE's in dungeons. Some are defense events, but see the crazy thing about DE's is due to them chaining you might have a few grind parts like collect ore in mine to give to one guy, but in doing so he'll be able to sell items.
So dependin on what you think is grind that's all you, MMO's where not for me because of this very thing. I wasn't able to get into Rifts,Warhammer,Warcraft,SWTOR, and Tera's beta, because of the grind and boredom.
However unlike the above due to DE's being the focus in PVE alongside Personal Story, one is able to get into it better and their more organic an don't have a kill such and such in order to have them do the same thing after stopping them I.E push and pull events with flame legion or centaurs. Inflitrating open world "dungeons" or hideouts in order to take a captian out, and then it turns into your own hide out and what not, if you want to R/P. Use a cannon, enviromental weapons in order to complete an event, and the list goes on.
Keep in mind though we seen all this in only 3 out of 25 zones from the press beta. Regardless if many are repeated in other zones, it's better than quests that only want you to do one thing. See because DE's also let you do many thins you want to, so you won't feel that grins, you can actualy help contribute to DE's without combat, long as someone else is helping the cause, or you can do a little of every task, not in an ordered list but how you want to.
So yea that's that, y'all take it how you want to, experincing it like I say a million times, is a huge difference from PQ's and Rifts.
I will not respond to anything else in this thread, I'm out and take care guys.
Disclaimer: I'm not mad when I cuss it's the way I talk ha ha.
I might get banned for this. - Rizel Star.
I'm not afraid to tell trolls what they [need] to hear, even if that means for me to have an forced absence afterwards.
P2P LOGIC = If it's P2P it means longevity, overall better game, and THE BEST SUPPORT EVER!!!!!(Which has been rinsed and repeated about a thousand times)
Common Sense Logic = P2P logic is no better than F2P Logic.
Yes, they are designed to play out a bit differently in how stages work. I think many misunderstand where the critique and impressions come from that you're replying to. While you're looking at the dynamic nature and using that to say it's different. The other person is looking at specific tasks and goals you will be performing regardless of that dynamic design. What they're saying is these tasks and goals are the same old same old. Doesn't even have to be a bad thing, it just is what it is.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
yes there will be grind. the quests in gw2 are barely dynamic
you kill a black dragon outside of a town and saves the town from destruction, a dynamic event would mean: the dragon randomly appeared in the city > dragon got killed -> city is safe from evil -> dragon never shows up in that town again -> you feel like you actually saved the town from a random dragon that tried to destroy it
but na, in gw2 you kill this so dynamic dragon then 30 mins later he respawns and you can do it all over again. that's dynamic? get the F outta here.
the only thing this game has going for it is the no trinity system, just like UO days. Can't wait to see how that works out.
dude, they are "DYNAMIC", what are you talking about? they change the world FOREVER. even says so in the manifesto.
I've got the straight edge.
That's not what I've heard at all, I've heard DE's start at zero and eventually return to zero. As in they're Cyclic.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
i was being fecicious.
I've got the straight edge.
I thought so, but you never know around here lol.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
were you also being facetious when you wrote the word 'fecicious'? lol
I will have to disagree with you here. I am honestly very tired of mmorpgs having played dozens of them with each one being a carbon copy of the previous except for 1 or 2 features that try to make it a little innovative from the previous. Having said that, there is no GAME (not just mmorpg) out there that excites me as much as GW2. After following every single bit of info and vids for the past...3 years is it? I am just as excited, if not more, than I ever was and can't wait for it. So when the devs say in their menifesto "if you love mmos you'll want to check out GW2 and if you hate mmos you will really want to check out GW2" I am totally buying into it. From all I read, seen and heard, it is living up to every expectation I have of it, and all these expectations are fully realistic as I have seen them in action during gameplay footages.
I am sure there are many others who feel this way especially the GW fans on guildwars2guru.com site.
Looking forward to EQL and EQN.
Lots of present tense used where future tense should be used instead. The game is not out yet, thus it "has" nothing right now. It may have or it may get pulled, changed, revamped or postponed for an expansion. From what is presented in the videos, GW2 seem to launch with certain features, but the game as it stands now has none, simply because it has not launched yet.
Edit for the guy just above me: I am too excited about the game, I'm also excited about Tera and TSW. Also excited about World of Darkness and a lot of games that are yet to launch. The thing is, until the game launches and the claims are proven justified, the manifesto will remain a huge trol bait that all the disgrunded mmorpg veterans have fallen into believing, after years of continious disappointment. I'm fairly optimistic, but on the other hand, nobody can say that they won't pull a Mythic on us.
DE's do not cycle automatically nor do they have forever lasting impact. If centaurs take over an outpost, that outpost will stay in the hands of the centaurs until players do something about it, that could be days, it could also be years, in theory.
Basically Dynamic event chains look like this (with eacht letter being a Dynamic Event):
A --> B --> C --> D --> E
If players do not interfere or if players fail all the time, the chain will go more and more towards E, which is the best situation from the badguys point of view. If players win all the time, the chain will go more and more towards A, which is the worst situation from the badguys point of view.
Why does everyone think scripts have tro be static ? Oh yeah, tahts what WoW scripts where.
In my humble opinion you could script as much randomness as you want.
-Random size
-random triggers
-Random mob actions.
-Random you name it...
If you want real dynamics, there needs to be some randomness, and that could easilly be scripted in these dynamic events.
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
I think they will take away some of it, you know that thing when you filled up your questlog and have to run the more uninteresting killing 10 rats quests before doing something interesting again. They will also add a feeling of urgency to what you do, you can´t wait an hour to help save the village (which usually never even are in danger), do something now or the place will burn down.
But some things will still feel grindy no matter what. You can't expect to play a game for years without repetetive content. My guess is that you will mostly grind titles and score in the Mists (the later won't be grindy from the start but after long enough it will still feel grindy to take a keep for your guild nd hold it 2 weeks).
I hope that the DEs will feel different from regular quests, they really still are but you have more of a choice what to do, you do it with other players and how it goes will affect the gameworld for a while.
If combat is fun then grinding is fun too. Questions?
This pretty much sums it up. I think there are more disheartend gamers in denial about themselves. I think the state of the MMO gnere is suffering from a 1-2 punch. 1. Developers have released a lot of garbage lately. But not everything is garbage.
I don't think Rift is garbage. Just not overly original. But what it does it does really well. Better IMO that the game that inspired it.
But the other side of the coin is that we as gamers have evolved. What stimulated us in 2004 does not stimulate us in 2012.
GW2's DEs are not revolutionary but rather evolutionery. They are the next step in the direction from WAR and RIFT. But they aren't new overall.
To put it in perspective, when I'd 1st started playing Rift, I remember my 1st zone invasion. I was questing along as I had been expecting and doing my own thing. Then next thing I knew I was in a raid group with 19 other people chasing raid bosses across the land.
I was blown away. "THIS.....IS......AWESOME!" I thought. And it was. I still play Rift and I will still go out of my wayt to join a zone event, but in time, they have lost the same level of impact they had when I 1st did them.
As I said GW2 is not revolutionary. So while they are a step or 2 further then where this concept had previously been taken, I cant see this as anything more than "New car smell"
Those of you who beta tested these in GW2, are seeing them in the same light i described my 1st Rift invasion.